John M Knapp LMSW

Hi, guys, I canceled the webinar because of lack of attendance. We actually rescheduled it and made it a free event, taking into account much of the good feedback I received from GSC readers. But too few people registered to make for a successful event in which I hoped attendees would share experiences and ask questions of presenters. It may be that I did not promote the event in the best way. Perhaps I offended some people. It could be that the technology is too new for potential attendees to trust. Or perhaps there are simply not enough people interested in this subject. Any feedback from the community that might point me in the right direction would be much appreciated. I am planning on making YouTube videos of Joe's and my presentations -- as well as Pawtucket's, if he is interested. I also am starting a free newsletter on recovery that I am hoping people will find useful. I have about 100 subscribers so far. If you or someone you know might be interested, please contact me at jmknapp53@gmail.com. A further note: For the most part, I'm thinking that I will not post to GSC in the future. I chose my career as a psychotherapist, after years in this field with Trancenet.net and TranceChat, to help people. My impression is that my presence at GSC stirs hurtful feelings for some people here. The last thing I want to do is cause pain for people I hope to help!!! And I sincerely apologize to anyone whom I have offended. Therapy is not necessary for most people who have left a cult. Many people are stronger for the experience. It's my hope that those individuals who do feel their recovery is blocked and would like to explore therapy will find a professional with whom they feel comfortable -- whether me or one of the other fine professionals in this field. So thanks to everyone for their input! I am taking it to heart and acting on it. J.

Hi, chockfull, A basic overview to how I practice with cult members is at http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/cults.html and http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/cultdefine.html. But the short version is that I focus on recovery rather than "cult exit counseling." By that I mean, I work with individuals who have already left their group but are still experiencing cult-related difficulties -- sometimes years or decades later. Exit counselors offer information that may influence someone to leave a toxic group. It may be that a family arranges for an "intervention" in which a current cult member is faced with information about the group they are in, with an eye toward convincing them they should leave. Or in some cases, cult members seek out an exit counselor to help them leave the toxic group gracefully. That's not what I do. I work with my client to explore their strengths and how to apply them to recovery. Anyone who has survived and left a toxic group must have unique strengths. Examples might be courage or independent thinking as shown by leaving. But strengths may go much deeper: compassion, idealism, openness, and many others. I have a list of strengths that former cult members demonstrate at http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/cultstrengths.html. To some degree I follow a general outline in working with former members, although there is wide variation depending on the needs of each individual. I use a "brief therapy" model. That means we start planning for the termination of therapy from the first session. My general goal is to work with a client no more than 12 sessions -- although I have worked with some individuals much longer, depending on the nature and difficulty of the challenges facing an individual. My general outline is to spend 3 to 4 sessions reviewing the cultic processes that were used in one's group. I do this for three reasons: first, the more you know about cultic manipulation, the less likely one will fall for it in the future. Second, if you can see the intentional manipulation of your group, you may stop blaming yourself for "falling for" your cult's influence -- which can block recovery. Most people I work with tend to blame themselves. Which brings up the third reason I educate on cultic processes: Usually in reviewing cult beliefs and practices, we discover a number of beliefs taught by the group that still linger long after leaving -- and contribute to suffering in the here and now. An example is all-or-nothing thinking that leads often to a former member experiencing crippling perfectionism: "Nothing I do is good enough, so why should I try?" (This certainly doesn't happen for everyone, but it is an example that many people report.) In the second phase, about 4 to 6 sessions, I use "cognitive therapy" to help former members to identify beliefs that linger after leaving the group and to challenge those beliefs. I use techniques found in "Mind Over Mood" and "Feeling Good," among other books. Generally this is the phase in which former members feel the most relief. Finally, we work on balancing one's life after leaving the cult. I find this is the most important task a former cult member faces. Our toxic groups were everything to us: They influenced every aspect of our lives, from beliefs, to diet, to choice of life partners, and so forth. Many people leaving a toxic group replace one "obsession" with another. They may become workaholics, find a new church or cause, bury themselves in intense relationships, or otherwise focus on one aspect of their lives while neglecting others. People who successfully balance their lives are much less likely to be overwhelmed by pain -- which can be a trigger for returning to your toxic group or finding another to fill the hole. There's a lot more to say, but I hope this gives you some idea of how I work. Feel free to ask questions or raise concerns! J. Acutally, ex, he accepted, but dropped out for reasons he never shared with me. We worked for a few weeks together, and then I stopped hearing from him. I'm not sure why. J.

Hey, Linda, You're not being hard! I believe if you have a concern, it's courageous of you to voice it. Most people don't take the time. And it educates me as well as giving me an opportunity to explain. And, most important, I think being cautious is an important part of recovery. Most of us just don't want to get involved in another high-demand or cultic situation. Using our experiences in our cult, which usually leads to caution about new "causes," is really turning a bad thing into a good thing. So, anyway, thanks for voicing your concerns! J.

Hi, Linda Z, I don't know if this is true or not, but it seems as if you are assuming things about how I practice and what I believe. I do not use the "mind control model" in my work. Nor do I have a cookie-cutter approach to recovery. Every person I work with finds their own route to recovery. That in itself is an important recovery process. It would be a mistake to replace one system with another, no matter how well intentioned. If I can help by saying more about my views on "mind control" or whatever, I'd be happy to discuss this. J.

Hi, Linda, There are a variety of therapy modalities, including individual, group, and family therapy. Different people find different modalities useful. There are advantages to each. This seminar will not be therapy. It's more informative and exploratory. We panelists will each present our information and experience and take questions and input from the attendees. It's much like going to a seminar on substance abuse. You wouldn't expect to receive therapy going to a conference or seminar. This is similar. The only real difference is the use of the Internet for our presentation. I believe that this is valuable because so many people who seek help in cult recovery do not have someone with experience within driving distance. And in these economic times, the idea of creating a conference that people must travel to seems like a nonstarter. Critical thinking is an important part of cult recovery. Both in my private practice and in the upcoming web seminar, I will take pains to say that you are the experts about you. It is possible in hearing a variety of techniques that have worked for others you may find things that you'd like to try in your life as well. It's not the case that we will be pushing a one-size-fits-all program. In fact, it's probably good for you to know that we 3 panelists each have different approaches to our work. It could be attendees will learn the most from us disagreeing! Discussion is always good! As to "drumming up business," my clients usually come from areas in which there is no local counselor available with experience in cults. A fair number of my clients are referred by others, but some people simply have no idea where to turn if they seek help. It is hard to reach these people. I have no interest in forcing any form of counseling or education down anyone's throat. Some people are interested in this kind of work, many are not. Everyone has to find their own answers. But being exposed to a variety of viewpoints can really speed that process for some people. Seminars like this are certainly not rare on a variety of issues. They are not intended to be therapy. But many find value in them. To my knowledge, this is the first web seminar on this particular topic, but I believe there is a future in using web technology in reaching a wider audience -- one that cannot afford to travel to a traditional, hotel-based conference. I don't know if I answered everything you raised, Linda Z, but if you have additional questions or concerns, I'll try to answer them. J.

Hi, Linda Z, Thanks for doing the research and raising your concerns. The reason we have 3 panelists for the web seminar, and not 1, is because there are many approaches to cult recovery. In my mind, there are strengths and weaknesses to all the approaches. As to Conway and Siegelman, they are not involved in the seminar. Nor is their thinking reflected in the presentation. For myself, I have never subscribed to the idea that cult members are incapable of free choice. For that matter, I do not subscribe to the idea of cult "brainwashing" -- although many in my field do. It would be a mistake to assume that everyone who works in this field has the same viewpoints. As best I can, I reveal my philosophy, methods, charges, and more at my web site. It is true that this is a cause for me. But that is certainly not unusual in the psychotherapeutic field. Most counselors you will work with will have been touched by mental illness in their circle of family and friends. Similarly, most substance abuse counselors are themselves in recovery, and many rape or DV counselors have personal experience as well. Just as when I founded Trancechat, trancenet.net, and No Way Out, my focus is on helping others who have been traumatized as I have been. It's my attempt to turn a very bad thing into a good thing. It is still true that much of my work is available for free on my web sites or via informal counseling over the phone or in email. But I turned "pro" so that I could devote even more time to helping others. Not to proselytize them into adopting a new cause. I've been working in this field for pushing 15 years and have never had "followers" or started an organization. I imagine if I had thought that was appropriate, I could have started an organization a number of times. But I, too, am concerned that vulnerable people could easily be sucked into another "save the world" movement. Fearing the negative impact of that on the people I work with, I chose not to go down that route. I think I've made the right choice. I don't know if I answered your concerns. But if you have more thoughts or questions, I'd be happy to try and answer them. J.

Hi, Twinky, Thanks for voicing your concerns. The advertising costs I mention are not for GSC. I am paying for Google search ads, as well as Yahoo. GSC was the only forum I posted my notice because of Pawtucket's involvement. I thought it would prove of interest to some people here. I didn't foresee the reaction it might cause, as I had posted here in the past to generally positive responses. The last thing in the world I want to do is cause pain for anyone here. I'm in this profession, which does not pay well, because of my own heart's passion. I was a member in my own cult for 23 years. I worked as an unpaid lay counselor for many years. (Some here may remember Trancechat, trancenet.net, and specifically, No Way Out.) A large part of my work remains free. I have megabytes of self-help information at my web site, and I still do informal counseling for many, many emailers. Even in this endeavor, I have set aside 15% of the possible seats for scholarships for people who simply cannot afford even $25. I understand caution or even suspicion. I've been there! It is in many ways a sign of health, after the kind of involvement most of us experienced in our respective groups. As best I can, I am trying to answer people's concerns here without feeding into more suspicion. I'm finding it a pretty difficult tightrope to walk! By the way, it was never my intention to claim this is a "wonder course." It's simply a seminar on some problems that some people experience. While there will be techniques and information that will be useful for recovery and ample opportunity for questions and answers, to my knowledge there is no "miracle cure" for the challenges that many of us recovering from cultic abuse share. But there are many techniques that people have found useful. There is no single "cure" for our problems. Recovery, for those that have experienced significant trauma, takes real work. It doesn't necessarily include working with a therapist. As I wrote above, I think most people recover without help or some self-help on sites like this. But some people do seek more, whether they are seeking a faster recovery or have tried self-help and found it wasn't enough for them. I really only wanted to attract the interest of these people. I've done my best not to proselytize, but simply offer an option that some people may take advantage of, even if most others do not. I would like to salvage my sincere offer of help -- only to those that are interested. If any member here could suggest something I could share that would smooth the waters, I would certainly take that suggestion to heart. J.

Hi, chockfull, Thanks for your thoughts. I thought you might like to know that I stopped marketing on forums some months ago. I took people's input to heart. I posted this notice here only after asking Pawtucket for approval. Why did I make an exception in posting this here? Only because of Pawtucket's involvement. I thought some forum members would find it interesting for that reason. While many therapists advertise, both in print and in google search, I've taken to heart the input of members of several self-help forums. I didn't foresee the sensitivity of forum members to my posts. For this I apologize. It's important to me that forum members see this as my mistake. It certainly was not Pawtucket's mistake! J.

Hi, dmiller, My apologies. I must have scanned the posts too quickly and missed your post with the fixed links. Of course, I thank you for correcting my error! J.

Hi, Twinky, You're not a pain. You're raising valid questions. Renting the webinar service, WebEx, is fairly expensive and there are other expenses involved, including advertising. I've budgeted about $700 for this event. So the first 30 attendees who pay $25 will be just covering expenses. If there is any money after that, we three presenters will split it evenly. You may not realize it, but there are dozens of hours of preparation involved, including training on the software, preparing the presentations, much more than just the 2 hours of the presentation. If we had full capacity of 85 attendees, we would make a few hundred dollars each. The highest possible income wouldn't really compensate for the time involved. The question "why" is one I've answered a number of times, but I'll give you the short version. In our culture in America, even helping professionals have to charge fees in order to cover our education, rent & utilities, and for money to live on. This is true for doctors, nurses, and even lowly psychotherapists. I don't mean to suggest that people posting here NEED help. As I've written a number of times, many if not most people leaving a toxic group like TWI do not seek help and are happy with their lives. Others do some self-help, such as reading books or becoming part of a self-help community such as GSC, and again are happy with their lives. People like this do not need any kind of professional help. However, some people work very hard at their recovery and despite their best efforts find that their life is still not working for them. Some of these people may choose to seek professional help in the form of a seminar, conference, group therapy, individual therapy, or similar things. Just to repeat, we are making 15 scholarships available for people who can't afford even $25. One person has already taken advantage of this. I'd be surprised if we didn't end up filling all 15 scholarship slots. We really are trying to make this available to anyone who is interested. It's not my intention to try to convince anyone they need help. But for those who have considered it, they may find the webinar useful. I certainly didn't mean to reflect on GSC as a self-help site. It may very well be the best such site I've stumbled upon. Twinky, did I answer your questions? J.

Hey, Dot Matrix, It's taking place on a Saturday afternoon. You say you can't get on the site. Sounds like I need to fix something. Can you tell me what URL you tried to do to? And what happened? J.

Hi, Ham, The chairs are covered -- but the coffee is a cool idea! How could we do cybercoffee -- in celebration of the GSC connection? J. Hi, Now I See, That's a good point. I should have included a note in my post: You can use any screen handle you like for your "name." To remain anonymous, I suggest using a handle that you haven't used elsewhere on the Internet. J.

On May 16 at 1 pm EDT, I will host a web seminar: "Healing Your Spiritual Wounds: Help with Recovery from a Toxic Group, Abusive Church, or Cult." Presenters include Joe Szimhart, cult recovery specialist since 1980, author, former New Age cult member; Pawtucket, founder, Greasespot Cafe forum for former members of The Way International; and me, John M. Knapp, LMSW, therapist, have counseled 2000 former members, former Transcendental Meditation teacher. While not exclusively about The Way International, Pawtucket will speak extensively about his own group involvement and recovery. The seminar is specifically designed for former toxic group members who have exited their group, but are looking for ways to speed their recovery. We have kept the course fee as low as possible, $25, and there are limited free scholarships available. Note: To maintain anonymity, I suggest you enter a handle in the name field and that you use a handle that you have never used on the Internet. For more details, click http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/woundswebinar.html]here. To register, click here. J.

Thanks for your words of encouragement, cheranne! It makes my work a pleasure. J.

Well, dmiller, you're certainly not being a jerk. I'm glad you asking your questions and raising your concerns. If you wonder, probably others do as well, but did not choose to post. So, thanks for taking the time to ask! I've gotten two contacts from this site, and others from other sites. I did post this on a few forums. I don't know if you bumped into this before or not, but authors seeking interviews in the mental health and recovery area is a very common practice. It just may not have happened here before. To answer your question, no I would not be reimbursing individuals who take part. This is not the practice in this field, and if you think about it, it might call into question the nature of their testimony. Some people enjoy sharing their experiences, challenges, and insights. Some don't. It's my hope that if this is not your thing, you just skip the message. I understand your caution about opening up your story to anyone. A number of people who have worked with me have certainly quizzed me pretty directly on this topic. I think everyone who has had their trust betrayed SHOULD be cautious! I do my best to offer reassuring material on my website. (The largest part of which is free self-help articles, particularly on cult recovery.) I am also a licensed professional who would lose his license if I were taking advantage of anybody. As far as making cash off other stories, you may not realize this, but the kind of self-help book I am writing probably will only cover the expenses of producing it. It's not generally a way to make one's living. (There are some notable exceptions, but certainly not in the very small cult recovery world.) The other point is that a self-help book is largely about reaching people who do not need or prefer not to engage in therapy. So in that way, I am not seeking new clients through a self-help book -- I'm trying to tell people that many can do this for themselves. I'm trying to put myself out of business! I urge anyone who feels any discomfort about sharing your story, even anonymized, not consider contacting me. But if you feel getting your story out might help other people, I hope you will consider contacting me. No need for apologies, dmiller! I thought your concerns were valid and your way of putting your questions quite respectful. I'm really glad you chose to ask them publicly! J. Hi, cheranne, The working title is "Healing Your Spiritual Wounds: How You Can Recover from a Toxic Group, Abusive Church, or Cult." I'm sure it will change before publication -- should I be so lucky as to be published. By the way, the bulk of the material that will appear in the book is already available to the public for free at my website. I'm seeking to have it published because the promotion that a publishing company can offer means I'll be able to reach many more people with my message than otherwise. I'll be very lucky to earn enough money to cover the expenses of writing the book! J.

I've already begun receiving phone calls. Thanks so much to this community for responding quickly to my request for help! J.

I am looking for members of any toxic group, but particularly TWI and abusive Christian Churches, to interview for two upcoming web events and a book that I am writing. You may specify that your interview be kept anonymous or not, as you choose. All that's required is a broadband connection, as well as access to a web cam and microphone. The interviews themselves would likely be less than 1/2 hour. If you have contributions to the following topics, please consider contacting me at jmknapp53@gmail.com or calling me directly at 518.651.6490. We will schedule the interview at your convenience. You could really make a difference in someone's life by investing just 30 minutes! Interview Topics What has helped you the most in recovering from toxic-group-related trauma? <li>Have you noticed marked improvement in your life since leaving your toxic group? What problems continue for you — even after leaving your toxic group? Have you noticed — or wondered about — any side-effects from meditation, prayer, or speaking in tongues, such as "spacing out," forgetting what you are talking about in mid-conversation, involuntary meditative states, or the like Did you have any children practicing meditation or speaking in tongues in the past? Did they enjoy it? Did you notice any questionable side effects? Do you have strong feelings about teaching meditation, prayer, or similar practices in schools? Is this a church-and-state issue for you? I'm sure other topics will come up in our conversation! Thanks for considering this. Feel free to share your questions or concerns by email or replies to this post. J. John M. Knapp, LMSW Recovery from Toxic Groups, Abusive Churches & Cults KnappFamilyCounseling.com

There are different needs, and "viability" levels, for different audiences at GSC, I think. I can think of a number of different audiences with different levels of needs from GSC: At the least newcomers, exploring leaving TWI, newly left TWI, people who are successfully out, people who are still challenged by pain or dysfunction, people looking for social connection, people actively looking for recovery resources, and the old-timers here who have heard it all before. I think it would be good for admins to prioritize the audiences they want to reach. Perhaps follow up with polls for each audience to target their needs. This process might make the viability question, and its answer, clearer. Just a thought. J.

Just a thought from a (mostly) lurker: I would hate to see this forum go away. I hope that Pawtucket can find some to help share the burden. GSC is a lively, complex, wonderful forum. I learn so much just lurking. I'd be willing to help keep the forum going, if there is some way I can help. J.

Just a last, quick note about the upcoming group: It starts next Wednesday night, 01/07/09 at 8 pm EST. I need to hear from you quickly if you've been thinking about taking part. I have a post ready to go for GSC on "Missing the Cult." Will post later tonight. J.

Thanks, Twinky! What neat way to look at it. J.