John M Knapp LMSW

Mais oui! I'll post where they'll have me. And dKos is about the largest blog audience out there. There's a strong libertarian streak on dKos. Talking about psychological freedoms fits in. I don't know other political blogs where my message would fit in. I'm concerned about faith-based initiatives, too. I may post on dKos about that. Faith-based initiatives may support the corner church. But Scientology wants some of that money, too. I have a problem with that. OperaBuff, if you know of conservative or other blogs that might be open to a message about recovery from cults, I'd love to hear about them! J.

Back at ya! (((((excathedra))))) J. Thanks, Jeff, you honor me! J.

Thanks Jeff and everybody for the kind words. It took me screwing up my courage to post this. I'm presenting myself as a professional. Admitting to these kinds of problems could lead some to say, "He's crazy as a coot. What could I possibly learn from him?" It's my hope, however, that people will read this stuff and say, "He was pretty crazy. But he's doing alright now. Maybe I could learn THAT from him." I'm living proof that recovery can happen -- even for bad cases like me. Change can happen at any moment. There's always hope! J.

cman, Tonight I posted a diary on DailyKos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/8/20.../454/365/670873 . This is as close as I've ever come to telling my own story:

Yes, I agree. There is no confrontation in the work that I do. I believe one can deal with the feelings brought up by exploring cult involvement in relative comfort -- if both therapist and client make that one of their goals. J.

They are not physically constrained. But they are asked to sign a contract before the start saying they won't leave. There can be heavy pressure by the exit counselor and family members not to leave. I haven't really found that, but I've never worked for someone who felt they were coerced by exit counselors. It could be that people with that experience don't seek me out. Thanks for your questions! Just to remind people late in the thread, I choose not to do exit counseling for some of the reasons you mention in your post, Linda. J. Hi, cman, I haven't posted much here, but some of it is at my website. I don't think it's necessary for anyone to post there story, naturally. I was just curious whether you had because I was interested. I meant no pressure or offense! If people are interested, I could try to post a summary of my story. J.

Hi, Linda Z, I didn't mean to ignore it. I must have missed it! Deprogramming doesn't really happen anymore. Ted Patrick was sued back in the early 80s, I believe, for forcible removal of an adult and attempting to coerce someone into leaving a cult. I believe the charges were kidnapping and similar things. Exit counseling doesn't involve detaining someone, but it is a confrontational process of attempting to talk someone into leaving through an "intervention." Generally, the intervention is arranged for by concerned family members. In 2 to 3 days of day-long sessions, the group member is presented with information about fraudulent material about the group, the techniques of mind control used by their group, and the testimony of other former members. I don't do either. I'm not comfortable confronting someone and trying to convince them that their group was a cult. It runs against my beliefs and temperament. It frequently doesn't work long time. It doesn't respect the right of adults to make their own decisions for themselves. It's pretty darn expensive: After paying the exit counselor's fees, travel, lodging, phone calls, and incidentals the price tag can run $10 grand, maybe more. And some exit counselors work as a team, with three or so people, confronting the group member. Really expensive. And, even when it does work, for many people exit counseling is not enough -- challenges continue long after leaving a cult for many people. At best exit counseling is just a beginning for many people. And a good number end up going back to their original cult or drift into another one. (Many do benefit from the experience. I've never seen numbers on a success rate. I do now that a good number of the clients I've worked with underwent exit counseling and continue to have recovery issues even years later.) I choose to work with people who have already decided to leave their group. Even then, I don't take a directive approach, meaning I don't try to convince them of anything. I strive to give everyone the respect and space to make these important decisions for themselves. I work with something called a "brief therapy model." This means that we start planning on termination from the first time we meet. What do you want to get out of therapy? How will you know when you have met your goals? With questions like that, we start from the beginning the process of firing me and hiring you to be your own therapist. Typically my work lasts 12 or so sessions with a client. Sometimes a person's personal needs require longer work. And to disclose fully, I have worked with some clients for a couple of years. This is unusual. But some clients are extremely damaged and require a great deal of support. The point isn't to make a career of therapy! Now it isn't the case that every client will have dealt with all problems within 12 sessions. But in the majority of cases, clients will have learned the tools that they need to become their own therapist and continue progressing on their own. Linda Z, I hope this answers your question. Don't hesitate to ask for further details. And I'd like to know your views of exit counseling. Did you or someone you know get involved with exit counseling? J.

Great story! From what I know of therapy, I know you did all the work. You deserve all the credit. Good on you! J.

I remain puzzled by your posts. They seem cryptic and oblique to me. I'm hoping you can explain. It might help if you defined what you mean by professional. I put in the time, did the work, earned the degree, earned the license, have used what I learned, and I'm pleased to say, most of my clients benefit by the work we do together. I'm a licensed psychotherapist in New York State. Naturally, like any professional worth his or her salt, I know I have much to learn still. And every client I work with teaches me something. I sometimes think that our belief that no one can understand what we went through in our cults is an extension of the narcissism we were indoctrinated with in our groups. It seems universal that there is some version of "our truth is superior to any other" and "we are saved and they are NOT." And a certain group of former members that no one could possibly understand. I wonder if these things are related? I personally found it a great relief to find out there wasn't anything particularly special about my experience in Transcendental Meditation. That the broad outlines of what I went through, many thousands of people had gone through in other groups. In fact, I found it easier to talk to people from other cults than my own. I wasn't as triggered by the buzz words. It didn't engage my guilt over leaving. I felt I learned more about my cult by talking to people from TWI, JWs, Siddha Yoga, Scientology, Amway, and so many other groups people reported being abused by. I can't know that it would be the same for you, cman. And every client I've known has had at least one surprise for me. But I've helped people work through murder, rape, suicidality, criminality, molestation, waking up screaming in the middle of the night, periods of amnesia, memory & cognitive deficits, hatred, shaming, child abuse, loss of family, loss of children -- serious pain. It could be that being open to yourself discussing your experience with someone with a different experience and perspective might surprise you. J.

Could you point me to the thread or post? As I say, I'd be interested to hear it. Facing yourself is a process, it seems to me, not a destination. The work is never really done. Because of my profession and the clinical supervision required, I'm constantly engaged in trying to know and understand myself. Plus it's part of my temerament -- probably one of the reasons I entered this profession. I'm not sure I understand all of your point, however. So my next words may be way off base. I believe, if I understood you correctly, that you are right only you know about yourself. I don't present myself as an expert trying to fix my clients because I have some special, secret knowledge. I believe everyone is the expert about themselves: their thoughts, feelings, experiences, motivations, and so on. This goes for clients or anyone really. For that matter I don't really feel my clients need "fixing." I think all the various challenges they may be facing are normal, natural, human responses to the trauma they've experienced. No matter what they want to work on, many others have wanted to work on it, too. I have some knowledge or experience that my clients may not have due to my training. But that doesn't mean I know more about them than they do. But some people decide for themselves that they can benefit from exploring their challenges with a professional. It certainly isn't for everyone. (I've posted before I'm not one who believes everyone needs therapy -- or that every former cult member needs therapy. Most do just fine on their own or with a little help from a book or self-help forum like this one.) "Though you will not be alone." I'm sorry. I don't understand this. Could you tell me more? J. Could you point me to the thread or post? As I say, I'd be interested to hear it. Facing yourself is a process, it seems to me, not a destination. The work is never really done. Because of my profession and the clinical supervision required, I'm constantly engaged in trying to know and understand myself. Plus it's part of my temerament -- probably one of the reasons I entered this profession. I'm not sure I understand all of your point, however. So my next words may be way off base. I believe, if I understood you correctly, that you are right only you know about yourself. I don't present myself as an expert trying to fix my clients because I have some special, secret knowledge. I believe everyone is the expert about themselves: their thoughts, feelings, experiences, motivations, and so on. This goes for clients or anyone really. For that matter I don't really feel my clients need "fixing." I think all the various challenges they may be facing are normal, natural, human responses to the trauma they've experienced. No matter what they want to work on, many others have wanted to work on it, too. I have some knowledge or experience that my clients may not have due to my training. But that doesn't mean I know more about them than they do. But some people decide for themselves that they can benefit from exploring their challenges with a professional. It certainly isn't for everyone. (I've posted before I'm not one who believes everyone needs therapy -- or that every former cult member needs therapy. Most do just fine on their own or with a little help from a book or self-help forum like this one.) "Though you will not be alone." I'm sorry. I don't understand this. Could you tell me more? J.

Hi, Cman, Well, I certainly don't know specifically what you are going through. But I've had points of common experience with every client I've ever worked with. The effects of toxic groups are more the same than they are different. But, then again, every individual and every individual is unique. Sometimes I am truly surprised by a client or a group. Have you posted your story here? I'd be interested in reading it. J.

:D J.

Hi, Jeff, I really agree with you. My exiting from Transcendental Meditation and later my education as a therapist has led me to a very similar place. My watchwords are transparency, accountability, and concern for others. I felt so much relief when I began to drop the defensiveness I developed in my cult just to survive. Defensiveness takes so much energy! I took me a long time to even begin to become open and transparent. But it has been so worth it. Do you find something similar? J.

Hi, Wordwolf, I've reread the sentence you emphasized, and I guess I'm not understanding how you are taking it. Because some of my clients are active here, and they feel it's a good place to keep up with TWI matters, I continue to be interested in the site. How did you understand it? I have posted in the past here with substantive material. Just not a great deal. I'm really hoping this thread will die down so that I can put some time into posting something else. I just can't keep up with two threads at once and get any work done. J.

Hi, Groucho, Good points, and a fair question. Before getting my degree as a therapist, I worked online helping people who had been in toxic groups and cults for 10 years. I was very active on various newsgroups, listservs, and forums. Everything I offered was free -- including my website that had many megabytes of self-help information. Do you remember No Way Out? It was a website that was part of trancenet.net. I founded trancenet.net and worked with several individuals out of TWI to create No Way Out. Many people found it helpful. I was among the first to offer websites targeted at helping people leaving cults back in 1995. I found that many of the people I was in touch with had serious problems in their lives even after leaving their cults. I came to the conclusion that "exit counseling" wasn't enough help for some individuals to get their lives back on track. I saw it as an extension of my mission to get an education and professional credentials in therapy. Once I made it my full-time profession, I had to begin charging for my services. I'll point out that I continue to offer many services for free. And, yes, I have therapy clients who pay no fees because they simply can't afford them. (This number is limited, but I do what I can.) Would I have posted on GSC if I didn't have a business? Well, I've been posting on a number of forums all along. But I found GSC because someone posted a link to my site back in September. I found GSC in my website statistics, which led me to read the site and begin posting. Since that time a number of people have become clients, so I continue to be interested in GSC. I have posted material here not directly related to my business and intend to do so again. Because of my limited time, I'm thinking I can't really work on more than one thread at a time. But once this thread has wound down, I have one in mind to post on "Missing the Cult." The best answer I can think to offer you is I run the business end of my work in order to pay for the free help I can offer. Not the other way around. I'll repeat a question I asked in another post to another poster: Helping professionals of all kinds -- doctors, dentists, chiropractors, and psychotherapists -- advertise their services and charge even their neediest clients. Very few of them offer the kind of free work that I do. Do you feel they are taking advantage of people? Now, if it is possible, I'd like to post material that is actually useful to people here. In this thread, I have largely been defending myself. I'm not sure that is of interest to too many -- or really helps anyone. But it's been taking a good portion of the time I dedicate to posting on forums. I'd like to begin posting substantive material that may help people. My guess is that if I start posting useful content, you and other readers will be much more comfortable with my presence here than presently. So I'd like to move on from defending my practice to actually providing a service. In time, my work here may prove my worth to you. Would that work for you? J.

Hi, George, I hear you loud and clear. I'm seriously trying to think about how I can represent myself and my work in some better way. I'm concerned I rubbed you and others the wrong way. There must be a way to spread the word without irritating people. I'm determined to find it. I sincerely thank you for taking the time to speak your mind clearly. Many times criticism is more useful than kudos. I learn more from direct speech such as yours. Please keep in touch, J. Thanks cheranne, excath, Scoutfinch, for your kind words. If you guys, George, or others have some suggestions for how I can make a better first impression, I'd really appreciate the feedback. The last thing I want to do is get people's hackles up when I'm trying to help those who are looking for help! J.

My guess is you have a fine sense of humor. It's more likely that my feeble attempt at a joke, born out of nervousness, just wasn't all that funny! J.

Hi, George, Could you say more about that? Many therapists are active online and announce programs of interest. I'm not clear on why that would be a conflict of interest or unethical. I've not really heard that concern before. There IS a thin line between offering help and overmarketing. I'm wondering, do you find therapists who advertise cross the line? That, too, has become common. My first thought is that it doesn't seem different than doctors who advertise. They too offer help, but charge for their services. But I'd like to hear your thinking. I think a couple things distinguish someone looking for "marks" and someone sincerely trying to offer help. For instance, if you have a second please take a glance at my fees. I really do my best to make my services affordable for as many people as possible. No one's going to get rich charging as I do. Also, I offer a large amount of material free online, including megabytes of self-help articles and a free forum for people exploring therapy in various areas. The other thing is that I've been doing this for a very long time. I've never had any complaints lodged with NY State Education, my governing body. Also, I have a number of clients who post here regularly on GSC. It would seem to me there would be complaints here, too, if I were acting unethically. I'm a little surprised at the turn our conversations have taken. But I'm glad to answer concerns people express. As I said above, if you're thinking this, there's a good chance others are as well. I do thank you for taking the time to raise your concerns directly. J.

Hi, Oakspear, I guess my lame attempt at a frivolous joke about posting on GSC went over like a lead balloon for you. I apologized for not posting because I was invited to become a member of the community here, and I didn't follow through. I felt a little guilty, thinking that I would be perceived as "chasing ambulances." I can't fix the past, but I will try to keep up with being more frequently here in the future. Groucho, You are right many people don't require professional help to leave their groups. Looked at in sheer numbers, I would say this is true for most people. It seems to vary by intensity of involvement, duration of involvement, and personal temperament. Some need no real help. Some get what they need from reading books or the Internet. Some get support in fine forums such as this one. But some genuinely feel they have lingering challenges despite taking advantage of all these things. I have no idea of hard figures on how many choose to get help. I just know that I've worked with a great many, as have other cult counselors. Ham, Believe me, I'm not getting rich either! I struggle to pay my mortgage and student loans just like anyone else. The bulk of my work is for free as I wrote to coolchef above. ---- I think caution is a good thing when approaching helping professionals -- in fact, it's a good thing in any new relationship. For myself, I found trust very difficult after leaving my cult. I felt so betrayed by a man I had thought was close to God, how was I ever going to trust again? Trust takes time and must be earned. Earning trust is a matter of months and years, not days or weeks. That of course goes for me too. I do what I can to earn trust. I have a large website that expresses my thoughts and practices. I offer an initial consultation for free to make sure there is a good match between what a client is looking for and what I have to offer. I refer to other professionals when appropriate. My venture into forums is relatively new. I really only tried to get serious about it in September. On some forums I've been welcomed. On some largely distrusted. Here on GSC it's been a little of both. I wonder if this relates to the depth of pain people experienced with TWI? J.

Your note about lack of experience is true for rarer and more extreme problems. Less so far common problems, such as depression or anxiety. The knowledge about these problems is so common that many, many counselors can help you with that problem. Extreme in the sense that it is not the general population's experience. Rape counselors, gay counselors, domestic violence counselors..... Those are all areas that one is well-advised to find a specialist. I bring up cult work here because many people here believe they experienced cultic abuse -- or an abusive church or membership in a toxic group. People's language varies, although the basic experience is quite similar. Word of mouth may not work for some problems. People experiencing rape may not choose to talk about their experience and so not pass on a recommendation. The word of mouth that is at work there tends to be referrals by a professional to a specialist. It can be the same for cult recovery work. I do get referrals from family members. Also, there are referrals between cult members. But I believe that former members are relatively isolated and don't have the chance to refer as much as other populations. To some extent that is changing with the Internet and self-help email lists, forums, and blogs. People are able to reach out to other cult veterans in an anonymous fashion. There word of mouth can spread. In my practice, I would have to guess that fewer than 25% of clients come from word-of-mouth referrals. Although this has gradually increased over the last 13+ years. A lot of professionals in my field rely on books and seminars/talks to make themselves known. I'm finally at work on a book that I hope to finish quickly because I have such a backlog of writing and case studies. With a book or media event, a specialist can cast a wide net and reach even isolated populations. J. cheranne, It's so great you had a good experience with your second therapist. How did you find her? J.

waysider, This is a v e r y important point! People need to find what fits best for themselves. This is especially true for members of groups -- most of them -- that tried to say that one truth or method or doctrine was the right one for everyone. Translating to our task at hand: Some people find a self-help community like GSC works best for them. While others investigate small group work like the support groups I started this thread with. And still others work in individual therapy with licensed professionals like me. I do recommend, however, that former cult members seek out self-help groups, therapy groups, and therapists who have experience with recovery from cults. Too often others, even professionals, do not understand what we've been through. I know for myself I felt judged, dismissed, and disbelieved by some professionals who had no experience with cult recovery. This isn't as obvious as it may seem. Many people seek out therapists who don't understand, have a bad experience, and then give up on therapy for good. Also most groups I've worked with discouraged their members from seeking professional help -- even medical care. Sometimes that taboo carries on after leaving the cult. waysider, thanks for bringing up this point! J.

Hi, coochef, You're not being a hard## at all. You are raising a concern that other readers have. And my guess is that even more readers may have the concern, but never write about it. So thanks for bringing it up! I do charge for my services. In our culture, there is a paradox: Helping professionals, such as doctors, nurses, and lowly psychotherapists, have to charge the people who need their help the most so that they can pay for their overhead, their insurance, their student loans, and to make a living. I do my best to help as many people as I can. Since 1995 I have offered many, many megabytes of cult recovery self-help articles on the Web -- for free. You might check out http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/ , http://tmfree.blogspot.com/ , and http://trancenet.net/ for hundreds of pages of free information. I was among the first to offer cult recovery material on the Net way back in the day. I sponsor a free cult recovery forum for people exploring therapy at http://knappfamilycounseling.com/phpBB3/index.php . I try to keep a presence on fine forums such as GSC, although to be honest I have been having trouble keeping up with posting in the last few months. I try to tailor my fees according to a client's ability to pay. I post my suggested sliding-scale fees at http://knappfamilycounseling.com/available.html . (This is unusual. Too often therapists make a mystery out of their fees!) I also work with some individuals on a pro bono basis -- for free. I will admit I am concerned about what some professionals charge in this field. I know of one exit counselor who charges as much as $10,000 for an individual exit counseling. I've heard reports that a well-known counselor charges $17,000 to work as an expert witness (plus traveling fees). This is unusual. I know of counselors who charge between $75 and $125 an hour. My top fee is $85 an hour, for people around $100K a year or more. Most people pay much less. Sorry for the long answer. But I think your question deserved a detailed response. I do everything I can to not take advantage of people who have been abused in the past. But you will find that psychotherapists need to charge victims of domestic violence, soldiers recovering from PTSD, and veterans of cult abuse. Please feel free to bring up any concerns you have. I hope I will be able to give you answers that work for you. J.

Hi, excath, Good to see you too! Thanks for the kind words. I'm actually feeling a little guilty about not keeping up with GSC. I'm in trouble on another forum for posting my notice without having posting there for a couple of months. I'll try harder to keep up. J. P.S. Several times a day I have trouble connecting to GSC. It can last 15 or 20 minutes. Do others have trouble with this? Is it due to bandwidth on Pawtucket's server?

Hi, guys, I haven't posted here for about 2 months. I apologize! I am swamped with people seeking help recovering from groups like TWI. I haven't had time for my favorite vice: posting on GSC! As I announced here back in September, I am holding 10-week online recovery support groups for people who have left cults, abusive churches, or other toxic groups. Here's the info on the upcoming support group: I am a licensed psychotherapist who has worked with over 2,000 former members of toxic groups, abusive churches, and cults since 1995 (qualifications here). I have specific experience with former TWI members. I will be starting two new online support groups for people who have been spiritually abused by toxic groups, churches, cults, and similar groups. One group is for people who entered their groups as adults (details here). It will start January 7, 2009 at 8 pm EST. People who were "born-in" or raised in toxic groups have unique needs -- distinct from those of adult converts. Adult children of cult members generally get more out of working with peers who were also raised in a toxic group. So the second group is designed specifically for people "born-in" -- also called Second Generation Adults (details here). It will start January 8, 2009 at 8 pm EST. I designed these support groups for people who left their group, but still face challenges functioning in life -- even years later. Difficulties might include: career/education, relationships, finances, health, depression, grief, shame, re-establishing spirituality -- any challenge related to your time in the toxic group. You might be interested in reading a list of symptoms former members of toxic groups report at http://KnappFamilyCounseling.com/cultsymptoms.html. Some benefits people report from recovery support groups: * A chance to share experience in a safe, moderated space -- ask questions and get answers * Confidential, safe, and secure * Inexpensive access to professional therapeutic help * Work with a therapist who understands -- I spent 20+ years in my own cult * Support from people who experienced what you did -- and understand what you are going through * A place to share and learn solutions that have worked for others * Group work may be faster, more powerful than individual counseling -- and less intimidating * Session transcripts let you re-read and consider insights at your own leisure * Learn crucial info on cult recovery The groups are open to anyone who is recovering from abuse by any toxic group. The groups are limited to a maximum of 8 members, on a first-come, first-served basis. To learn more -- or if you have any questions at all -- please private message me or contact me through my website. I look forward to recovering with you! :D

Hi, Jeff, Thanks for your note. You may be right that the leader will not change. If a list like this were to guide wide acceptance in the culture at large, people might use it as you suggest: to judge groups they think of getting involved in. Groups like those trying to reform the Catholic Church have similar ethics principles. There is the possibility that a list like this could be common. J.