John M Knapp LMSW

Hi, oldiesman, Thanks for a great question! No, I use the term "cult" in the sense of a dangerous or abusive group (not a full definition by any means). A group could not have these things and place and not be dangerous or abusive. But I think orgs that don't have similar policies and practices in place are at risk for becoming cultic. Transparency and accountability are the heart of what I am suggesting. In secrecy, abuse thrives. Even groups that start with the best of intentions can rapidly become abusive in various ways if there is no oversight. J.

Give me a moment. I mean to give this article a positive agenda. But it may take a second to get there. I could complain about TWI, the splinters, or my own group, Transcendental Meditation. But I'd like to give the group leaders a few tips on how not to be a cult. Perhaps cults and leaders could incorporate a few of them. This is what I observe. When critics label a group cultic, there's a knee-jerk reaction. The group enters an escalating spiral of defensiveness. First, they claim they are not a cult. They give dozens of reasons why they're just like other religions or groups. They attempt to destroy their critics. They claim critics are "disgruntled," criminal, bankrupt, unbalanced -- downright crazy. When these tactics don't work, cults ratchet up repressive isolation of their members and forbid them to read critics. Critics rightly point out these defensive maneuvers make the groups even more cultic than before. Which sets off another round of defensiveness. Once in a great while, modern cults claim they have reformed. Scientology and ISKCON come to mind. I remember opening my apartment door one sunny, Sonoma summer day in 1996 to Gene Ingram's smiling face . Gene's a private investigator best-known for allegedly intimidating critics of his main client, Scientology. He heard I left a startup cult activist foundation. So he thought I might be sympathetic to Scientology's side of the story. "Scientology used to have some problems. But it's over. We threw the bad guys out. The good guys won." Gene left me his business card and invited me to Los Angeles for a private tour of Scientology's facilities there -- and a private audience with some church bigwigs. Somehow, I never got around to that trip. Gene sadly misjudged my state of mind. Despite his assurances, cultic abuse complaints continue to dog Scientology some 12 years later. Maybe the mainstream media didn't get the memo. Hare Krishnas reform? Same tune, different day with ISKCON's Hare Krishnas . Okay. So on to my positive agenda. Not every organization that critics label a cult started out to abuse its members. But without forethought, any organization can become cultic. Look at the problems the Catholic Church faces. So here are a few tips for cult leaders. Maybe, just maybe, they can dodge the cult label. Be Transparent discuss policies, procedures & scandals openly publicize open complaint procedures report public scandals promptly to members, law officials & public media allow free information flow & fully disclose "secrets," especially those that might affect potential members' choice to join fully disclose the group's political & legislative involvement fully disclose finances, particularly international finances, with third-party audits create a member-driven task force to set reasonable fees for retreats & "courses" dialogue openly with laity, the press & the public Be Accountable publish -- and adhere to -- a set of ethics publish -- and adhere to -- all fees & donation policies oversee clergy & other agents with governing boards if any group agent acts unethically or illegally, take full responsibility Advocate Freedom allow open questioning of the leader's beliefs & practices Create a mechanism for modifying beliefs & practices create an elective or accountable structure of representation (as in most churches) promote freedom of speech within the group, without reprisals for contrary opinions promote academic freedom for clergy & scholars allow access to files/records held on members & public individuals advocate freedom to explore our spirituality without shunning or other repercussions avoid use of shame or guilt to control members Provide Member Protections institute safeguards against members devoting damaging amounts of time, money & emotional resources to the group Value Respect for Non-Members foster a systemic respect for other spiritual traditions & non-members foster a systemic respect for the rule of law, rather than the belief the ends justify the means foster a systemic respect for members' families, whether they are members or not foster a systemic practice of charity & support to the less fortunate encourage members to live or socialize with non-group members Provide Informed Consent fully disclose negative side-effects of group's mind-altering or medical techniques undertake real efforts to address & heal side-effects accept financial responsibility for members suffering side-effects Imagine a cult that acted with this kind of integrity. That's a spiritual organization I could be proud of. I'm sure readers will think of more bottom-line policies for successful non-cults. Please feel free to suggest them in comments below or by emailing me directly at jmknapp53@gmail.com.

"Creating the need": Yeah, it's a fundamental principle in all marketing & sales. No one was embarrassed by "wetness" until underarm deodorant ads told us to be so. I don't know the proportion of "seekers" to those whose needs were manufactured in cults. But healthy numbers belong to both categories. Some people don't fall into either category. Obviously children born or raised in a cult imitate their parents, whom they want to please, and are neither seeking of finding. And many enter the cults due to pressure from family members or friends. You bring up interesting points! J.

Hi, frank, I use "veterans" after some thought. "Survivors" is used with people who survived suicide or homicide events, such as the survivors of the Jonestown Massacre. "Victims" has taken on a nasty connotation, such as people who attract misfortune and never recover or move on. "Veterans" are people who have been through hell, have survived, thrived -- and have tales to tell that society needs to hear. J.

Hi, excath, This is quite true. There are a variety of things people do in response to strong or severe stress. Dissociation is one of them. It's not unique to cult veterans. But it appears that former cult members dissociate not only more than the general population, they dissociate more than clinical populations as well. (Clinical populations are people in treatment.) But your point is well taken. Many people dissociate, not just cult veterans. J.

Seth and excath, You are so generous in sharing your experiences here. You may help others who are reading here. But please remember, these "symptoms" are only problems if they cause pain or dysfunction in your life. Everyone dissociates sometimes. Only you can say whether it is a problem for you. Some people leaving cults have internalized perfectionism or the belief that "there's something wrong with me." They may find minor things that are off and think of them as huge problems. This may be due to the exaggerated perfectionism or blaming the victim that took place in the cult. I'm not saying that this is happening to ANYONE here. If you tell me you are in pain, I take you at face value. You are the expert about your experience. But I also hope that my list of symptoms aren't a cause for worry or pain in its own right. Does that make sense? J.

Seth, You made wonderful sense -- at least to me! J.

I got this note via PM. The author graciously gave me permission to post it anonymously to further discussiong. Thanks for writing! I have a similar problem. I, at least, do attribute it to my time in my cult. I can't know for certain that your problem stems to TWI, but I'm certainly suspicious. Problems with memory are very, very common among former cult members. Do you have any other problems with memory? Can't remember important events in your life? Periods of time, particularly during your TWI time, that are blanks? People remind you of things you did that you can't remember? These problems can get better with time and work. Part of the solution is doing what you are doing right now, come up with techniques that help you work-around the problem ("accommodation," "compensation"). Thanks for sharing such private information -- giving me permission to post it. J.

Hi, Waysider, Thanks for sharing your experience -- and the information. The SIT technique certainly sounds like it would induce trance/dissociation. This doesn't mean it was not a true spiritual practice or experience. But it may have taught the mind to dissociate -- leading to involuntary dissociation eventually. Did you find this? What did you feel like when SIT? Did it feel like an altered state of consciousness? Any physical symptoms? Thanks again! J. Hi, dmiller, I don't know what happened to the SIT part. Curious. Not everybody dissociates. Not everybody continues dissociating after stopping the practices. I'm glad to hear it didn't stick with you! J.

Hi, ChasuFarley, I can't be sure. Cause and effect have not been "proven." But I've dealt with over 2000 current and former cult members. When the same symptoms come up over and over, it's reasonable to hypothesize there's a connection. Can you say more about how it hits home? J. Hi, Ham, This certainly sounds like classic dissociation. But since it didn't cause problems for you, I wouldn't say that you have anything to be concerned about. Nearly everybody dissociates to some degree at times. It's only a matter of concern if it causes problems functioning or discomfort. Thanks for writing! It takes courage to share unusual experiences. J.

Hi, Seth, That is the stated goal of most, but not all, Buddhist meditation (specifically mindfulness, insight, and vipassana). The stated goal of most mantra-based meditations -- generally, Hindu-based -- is to experience "pure awareness" or "cosmic consciousness." This is discussed in some Indian texts as a "gap" between thoughts or states of consciousness. Literally, this gap meets the descriptions of dissociation, or so many scholars believe. Some clients report that TWI videotapes and classes caused them to dissociate. Also, criticism can cause dissociation in other ways. Controlling group norms, judgment, gossip, and so forth can cause overwhelming stress -- again leading to dissociation. In fact, many cult members so internalize criticism/perfectionism that their own personal judgment is so unbearable, they avoid it through dissociation. Thanks for writing! I agree with you that the Buddhist meditations don't seem to cause dissociation. (Although I have worked with clients who experienced strong dissociation attending Goenka's meditation courses.) Glad to hear you have found things that work for you! J.

In my cult counseling practice, I'm often asked about "dissociation." Many people don't know what it is. Or if they experience it. In our groups, we called it "spacing out," "blissing out," "being slain in the spirit," being a "space cadet," or many other names. But what did we mean? And what's the big problem with it? A lot of people enjoy "blissing out." Basically, dissociation is any gap in the major identity or cognitive functions: awareness, memory, conscious thought, certain language abilities, and of course identity itself. We all dissociate sometimes. We daydream, get lost in thought, stare off into space, forget for a moment where we are, or lose track of our surroundings when deeply involved with a book. But, in extreme cases, our main personality disappears during the gap -- and another alter may take over. This is full-blown Dissociative Identity Disorder, what used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder. This is rare. The point is dissociation exists on a spectrum, from mild and pleasurable to severely disabling. Dissociation is only a problem when it causes pain or difficulty functioning in daily life. Some cultic studies scholars believe cultic organizations teach trance states, a form of dissociation, because they increase suggestibility -- with obvious benefits to groups that control and indoctrinate members. (Not all scholars agree with the link between trance and suggestibility. This article offers evidence against the suggestibility hypothesis.) Purposefully teaching dissociation to increase suggestibility seems likely to me. Every cultic group I've worked with promoted dissociation through trance, meditation, Ericksonian or classic hypnosis, chanting, speaking in tongues, group criticism sessions, singing hymns for hours, observing lengthy religious rituals, protracted group workshops, lengthy baffling group instruction, interminable incomprehensible videos, yoga, or other methods. This doesn't mean dissociative techniques can't be pleasurable -- or beneficial. But like so many good things in life, they may be perverted by leaders with dishonorable intentions. And like salt, a little adds flavor and is necessary for life. But a lot can kill you. Dissociation is one of our primary defense mechanisms. Most readers have heard of the "fight or flight response": The body pumps out adrenaline when presented with danger. To this scholars add "freeze": Responding to a frightening stimulus with a "deer-in-the-headlights" response, in the hope the danger will go away by itself. I'd add to the physical fight-flight-or-freeze triad two cognitive defenses: "appease" and "avoid." Most mammals exhibit an appease response: Think of a low-status dog presenting his belly to a threatening dominant pack leader. We humans may bow and scrape before a threatening boss, for instance. "Avoiding" takes many forms: simply staying away from hostile places and people, to denial, to mentally checking out -- or dissociating -- when all other defense methods fail. Our minds protect us from overwhelming stress. The classic example is the child who is raped. At the time, the child may lose consciousness or enter into a fantasy world. Later as an adult, the raped adult-child may dissociate -- or even develop alters -- to protect the mind against the extreme stress of the painful memory or self loathing. People with post-traumatic stress disorder tend to dissociate. It's easy to understand how harsh criticism fits into this model. Being denounced in front of a group is excruciating. It makes sense the mind checks out. But what about chanting or meditating? It's possible trance is a response to the boredom of repeating a mantra or maintaining a blank mind. Or it may be trance is just an alternative way of invoking a natural response -- a kind of "back door," just as we can hike our adrenaline by visualizing a dangerous situation when none is present. Eastern meditation cults, or any group practicing extensive chanting or meditation, seem to cause unusually high levels of dissociation for some people in my experience. (I find fewer problem reports from mindfulness meditation practitioners -- although I've worked with followers of Goenka who report dissociation.) Mantra-based and similar meditations themselves are forms of learned, voluntary, and controlled dissociation. For most people 20 or 30 minute meditations are not only not dangerous, they appear to be beneficial -- and enjoyable. Meditation is one of Nature's miracles, I believe. But some people report meditation practice can lead to involuntary, uncontrolled "spacing out" in daily life. Some groups have members meditating for 4 or 8 hours a day. (Transcendental Meditation is one of these.) It appears the mind overlearns meditative states, and they may occur spontaneously and without conscious control in daily life. For some of my clients, this causes difficulty leading a normal family or professional life. A side point: Trance and meditation appear to become addictive for some people. (You may be interested in this article on trance addiction.) Whatever mechanism allows meditation to induce dissociation, for a significant minority of meditate excessively, it becomes involuntary and dysfunctional. Many long-term meditating clients initially deny dissociating in daily life. But after reviewing the symptoms, some tell me they've dissociated for years. Are you dissociating? Is it a challenge in your life? Below is a list of possible symptoms. Nobody experiences all of them. Even experiencing a few -- if they interfere with your life &mdash is a matter for concern. I've also linked to an online test that may indicate if you are experiencing dissociation. Please feel free to report your own experiences of dissociating in the comments below -- maintaining your anonymity if you choose. Depersonalization: Symptoms of Losing Identity (Gaps) You sometimes stare off into space, not thinking and unaware of passing time You sometimes feel like a "witness" to what is happening to your body When driving, you sometimes realize you don't remember all or part of the trip Listening to someone talk, you sometimes realize you did not hear what was just said You sometimes talk aloud to yourself when you are alone You sometimes find yourself somewhere, with no idea how you got there You have no memory of some important life events, for example wedding, graduation You sometimes feel your body does not belong to you You sometimes remember a past event so vividly you feel you are reliving it You sometimes aren't sure whether things you remember really did happen or a dream Sometimes you can't remember if you did something or just thought about doing it You sometimes find a familiar place strange and unfamiliar Watching TV or reading, you sometimes become so absorbed you're unaware of the room around you You sometimes get so involved in a fantasy or daydream it feels as if it is really happening (may be understood as a "vision") You act so differently from situation to situation you like two different people You find yourself dressed in clothes you don't remember putting on You sometimes find new things among your belongings you do not remember buying Sometimes people approach you whom you don't know. They may call you by another name or insist you've met them before You notice or are told you sometimes do not recognize friends or family members You sometimes are accused of lying when you do not think you are You sometimes look in a mirror and do not recognize yourself You sometimes find you are able to do things with amazing ease and spontaneity that usually are difficult for you (sports, work, social situations, etc.) You sometimes find evidence you've done something you don't remember doing You sometimes find writings, drawings, or notes you have done but don't remember doing You sometimes hear voices that tell you what to do or comment on what you're doing Derealization: Symptoms of Losing Connection to Reality You sometimes feel like you are falling into a void You sometimes feel like you are "outside your body" -- alongside, above or behind You sometimes feel like you are floating You sometimes feel kuje you and your surroundings do not seem real You sometimes see stationary objects appear to move Sometimes people and objects appear far away or unclear You sometimes see surroundings through a diffused light, fog or mist (or "fiery" light) Sometimes your whole body enveloped in light You sometimes feel your body is expanded -- feels huge/larger than normal You sometimes feel your body has shrunk to minute proportions/smaller than normal You sometimes feel your body is being pressed to the ground You sometimes are unusually sensitive to light and sound You sometimes have tunnel vision You sometimes find you can ignore pain You'll find a valid, reliable online questionnaire for dissociation here. If you found yourself saying "yes" to several of the symptoms of dissociation above, I recommend you check it out. You may be able to do some self-help with techniques I mention here. But if you continue to experience discomfort or difficulty functioning due to dissociation symptoms, I suggest you speak about it with a mental health professional -- if only to ease your mind. John M. Knapp, LMSW Therapist. Cult counselor. Coach KnappFamilyCounseling.com

To all the great commenters and lurkers, I thought I'd add another free self-support service I offer. At http://knappfamilycounseling.com/phpBB3/index.php I host a forum. It is specifically aimed at people looking for a therapeutically focused forum with other people who share their issues. It is NOT a replacement for this great forum. It is not too active right now, but there are some good threads to read. It is open to all (for free). Check it out! J.

Hi, socks, Thanks for the kind words. It sounds like you have a wonderful relationship with your wife! Are you saying that your relationship helped you get through recovery from TWI? I've notice people who have kept relations with family (and mates) open seem to recover more easily and smoothly. There seem to be different kinds of exchanges. Some are casually social. Some are personally revealing. Some are more extreme, where two sides don't seem to understand each other -- and can even get hateful toward each other. While not a truly "therapeutic" forum, I can readily see how many people get comfort and all the self-help they need here. I respect the wide latitude allowed in speech here. I do imagine, however, that some people do get hurt. J.

Hi, LZ, Thanks for your clarification. I think it's great the moderators are active in maintaining respectful communication. I know it's pretty hard here in the Wild Wild West -- er, I mean the Internet. J.

:D Too late! I went mental long ago! J. Thanks for the kind words, Twinky. Like so most members of my profession, I got involved because because I had been touched by needs for help and have some family members who have needed help, too. I always say I get as much or more from working with my clients as they do! J.

Thanks steveo, notawayfer, ex, for your sharing -- and the kind words. I sometimes have trouble sharing my own experiences on forums, which I think is pretty funny given my profession. But I hope to gradually feel more comfortable and share more here. On another topic, I got a PM with some questions about the cult recovery support group that I'm starting. I figure other people may have similar questions, so I thought I'd post some details. The group will take place in a closed, private chat room at public-talk.com. It won't be available to anyone via Google. The room is secure and password protected. The transcript will disappear the moment we all leave the room. And I urge everyone to use a handle that they don't use anywhere else on the Internet. There will be a variety of cults represented. I think this is the best for good results. Looking at other cults often gives us unusual perspectives we wouldn't have thought of otherwise. In fact, I'm likely to make sure that people with similar group experiences are in separate groups. (It's looking like I may open a second group based on demand.) Thanks to the individual who PM'd me for asking great questions. I'm sure many people are unsure what to make of doing a support group online! J.

Hi, ex, I don't want to put on airs. I was at best a "medium shot." The real big shots wouldn't even recognize my name. I met the leader, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi of Beatle's fame, only a few times -- and never had a personal conversation with him. It was a really large movement back in the 70s. J.

Hi, Twinky, You make a good point. I need to think about it some more. My first thought is I need to own the experience. I was a TM teacher and lectured to some thousands of people and provided services of various kinds to thousands more. (It was a really big group back in the 70s.) Part of why I chose my profession is that I have a need to make some amends. I talked people into buying "courses" and other products. And I told lies that I was conscious were lies -- even if I thought at the time I was acting for a "greater good." So in some sense, I think I may have "bought-in" more than you describe. Calling it "my cult" may be justified. Let me think about your point some more....

Thanks for the explanations about what I thought was an "inside joke." I understand the reason for the rule about not questioning the mental health of another poster. MH jargon has become a new class of swear words, unfortunately. Saying someone has "issues," is "bipolar," could use some "help," etc. are extremely loaded in today's culture. We may not feel free to call someone an "a-hole" in polite company, but people feel free to say "you need to see a shrink." It's sad. Because of the lingering taboo in our culture over mental health issues and therapy, language that is meant to help and heal has become a new category of hate speech.

Thanks for the kind words! I make no secret that my departure from my cult, Transcendental Meditation after 23+ years, was quite messy. I worked with two quite well-known exit counselors, entered psychotherapy, and took prescribed medications for anxiety and depression for quite some time. I guess my feeling is get all the help you can and grab it where you can find it. I still struggle 13 years after leaving my cult with some issues. But I'm pleased to say that I have a happy, productive, and comfortable life. There is hope for everyone! I think of cult recovery as being much like recovery from traumatic grief. When a parent or loved dies, we're a mess at first, we may grieve seriously for a year or two, but in time we learn to balance good memories with our grief and gradually return to normal functioning. But such grief fundamentally changes us for the rest our lives. We're not the same person after that we were before. Our lives may actually become richer, more intense, more urgent because we recognize our mortality. It's similar with cult recovery. We will never be the person we were before we entered the cult. We are changed. But we are very likely to become richer, more compassionate human beings.

Hi, THW, Thanks for the warm welcome (and also thanks to everyone else who has been encouraging)! Re: the "bickering." Every cult and every individual is different. And I've found every self-help forum is different too. For those that allow both current and former members to post, there's almost always elements of anger, hostility, and distrust. This makes sense: The two world views are so different there's bound to be friction. And nearly every group I've worked with has taught black/white beliefs, such as members are better than everyone else, and outsiders are sinners, unsaved, even evil. With that as a starting point, it's pretty hard t have respectful conversations. More generally, I find that many former members DO hold onto old beliefs, both consciously and unconsciously. I wrote an essay about Secondary Narcissism, discussing my own struggles with at least one old belief I've had: http://knappfamilycounseling.com/2ndnarcissism.html . Naturally, these beliefs affect feelings and actions in the present. Did that answer your question?

Hi, T-Bone, I can't tell you how many of my future clients start out with some variation of "I have this friend...." :) I don't think of most of most of my clients as "mentally ill." I think they are having normal, natural, human responses to grief, betrayal, or reactions to the extraordinary stress we experienced in our cults. Most people leaving a cult do NOT need professional help. They adjust to a comfortable, productive, happy life on their own or through support groups like this or self-help reading in books or on the web. But a significant minority aren't able to make that transition smoothly and may have significant challenges functioning for months, years, even decades after. (You may be interested in a list of post-cult symptoms I've found my clients suffer from at http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultsymptoms.html .) I definitely do NOT hold to the belief that EVERYONE leaving a cult needs professional help. Quite the opposite! I've found that cult veterans exhibit extensive strengths that they take away from their cult experience: http://knappfamilycounseling.com/cultstrengths.html . But I do make my services available for people who feel they have been working at recovery for some time, but continue to have challenges that they don't seem to be making progress on. Thanks, T-Bone, for taking the time to reply -- and giving me a chance to talk a little more! You mean another "Knapp"? Not to my knowledge. Is he/she a good guy? I'd like to meet people here.

Hmmm, who is ******? Is this an inside joke I need to learn? :)

Thanks, ex and cheranne, for the encouragement! Let me know if I can answer any questions or concerns. J.