socks

14 hours ago, WordWolf said:

The more I look into things and consider them, the more convinced I become that vpw faked ALL the "manifestations", from start to finish.

How he could fake the "utterance" manifestations, we've discussed before.  Anyone could make sounds, anyone could claim they're reciting a message from God. Prime the pump first by instructing the gullible public how the things are SUPPOSED to look and sound- even if the results are nothing at all like the real thing- and you're golden. Your only danger is someone catching on- especially if they encounter the real thing or otherwise realize yours don't resemble what the real thing is supposed to look like.

It also explains why vpw had an explanation as to why there were 2 completely different types of prophecy, one of which had nothing to do with prophesying. 

So, teach people to make sounds, teach people to compose a "message from God Almighty",  and keep expectations high, and you'll convince them that the sounds and the "messages" both came from God Almighty and not their expectations. This is how it COULD be done.

(Start another thread if you want to discuss this further.)

 

How to fake the "information" manifestations is a bit trickier, but it's do-able.  Don't overplay your hand, keep it low-key or people will catch on.  Periodically pretend that you're receiving Divine Revelation at that moment.  Reveal something people didn't know you knew.  vpw was fond of listening to the John Birch Society's tinfoil hat conspiracies, then coming forth in private with "revelation" about conspiracies in the US.  That's how twi got into thinking 1976 was going to be the end of the US.  Did it stop with vpw's death?  No- and if you were listening to twi as Y2K approached, you'd know that. That was ANOTHER time the world "ended." 

Although both times, the world was saved because people were in twi praying, and disaster was averted.   (Some people really bought that. Both times. Some of the same people bought that both times. A few people still buy that.)

 

But it's harder to fake Divine Revelation when you don't have enough really good information to run with. So, you make up for it by having accounts of you getting revelation be either general ("he gets revelation")  or second-hand with people inventing instances they "saw".  You can also add a few "a few years ago, this happened but there are no witnesses" stories.  We saw that with vpw's visit to India, where his account was full of miracles, and people loved him- but he never visited nor spoke to them again afterwards, not one word.   Other people's accounts of the same trip (like Mrs W) skip virtually all the miracles and all the adoration, and are vague when they're not skipped entirely.   So, we got stories like "vpw walked around a racetrack and got revelation showing people's hearts as white or black." 

As for the "impartation/power" manifestations, those are harder still to fake.  vpw had stories circulating about him doing things from people who supposedly were there.  When it was time for actual results, vpw fell short. Either he had other people minister healing and so on, or when something went wrong, he screamed at someone for failing to predict problems and so on.  There are no accounts of "the tent top was going to collapse from flooding, so he prayed, and all that water just vanished"- instead, someone cut a hole and he blamed people.  There's no accounts of "we all got together, the electricity went out, we heard him praying faintly, then suddenly the generators came back to life and there was much rejoicing."  Instead, we had him admit he was still standing there. For someone who allegedly gets all sorts of prayers answered in miracles, why didn't he even ASK for one then?  The most sensible answer- he knew it was pointless, he knew he wouldn't get answered. 

Oh, the further away the eyewitnesses were, the more miraculous things happened around him- miraculous healings in India, miraculous snowstorms kept happening to him in the US, and so on. As to the second of those, someone checked at the time, and found there was NO snowstorm at the time- he was caught lying.  As to the first of those, the reaction was fascinating. Someone checked afterwards, and there was no snow. They went up to vpw, and said so.  This was a man who insisted that he was snowed in, in a city. ALL traffic was STOPPED.  NO trains. NO planes. NO buses.  Sounds like a blizzard.  I've lived through those. (For the record, in NYC, the subways usually can be kept running, even in a blizzard, and I used the subway in any blizzard or snow storm that stopped the buses.)  He said this over and over.  When someone came up and said there was no snow at all- not even one flake, what is the obvious response?

If someone claimed there was no snow in the last blizzard I trudged through, I would be rather emphatic. Check again! I spent most of an hour either standing or trudging, and did a lot of cardio just getting to and from the subway.  To say nothing of the 10 hours that followed, all of which were affected by the heavy snow.  I would be clear they either were checking the wrong date, or the wrong city.   IF vpw had lived through one, his response should have been similar.  (It would be like someone trying to tell me the Twin Towers never fell.)  What was his reaction?  Nothing of the kind!  Immediately, he CHANGED HIS STORY.  He claimed that there must not have been any actual snow at all, but instead when he tried to arrange passage, he spoke on the phone, repeatedly, to angels who lied to him each time.  (So, you can believe angels lied, or you can believe wierwille lied.  According to vpw, ALL men are liars.)

 

When it comes to teaching on the other 6, I think that vpw paid close attention to what other people said, and did his best to memorize them and regurgitate them at will.  So, he could SOUND like he knew the subject, but that was only because he was RECITING what he memorized.  His understanding was about as deep as that of a person who reads a wikipedia page aloud and people think he's an expert on that subject.  His knowledge was spotty and intermittent.  His definitions changed from Leonard's definitions. Those changes never made anything clearer, they just added syllables and ten-dollar words. That's not the actions of a man trying to make knowledge clearer- those are the actions of a man hiding that he doesn't know what he's talking about!  Geer later came along and changed some definitions. In each case, each attempt at least TRIED to make things clearer.   That was a man TRYING to make things easier to be understood. (Whether or not his conclusions were correct, I would not fault his intention.)   IMHO, in some of the changes, he was successful, and in some, he was not because he let his interpretation guide things.  Interestingly enough, in the case of at least one change, he fixed something that I thought was a rather basic problem with the definition.  I went back later. That was part of Leonard's definition. Instead of fixing an elementary problem with it, vpw added lots of SAT vocabulary words to it, then taught it.   I was a student who hadn't studied that subject under ANY of them, and I realized the definition had a problem- and what it was.   vpw TAUGHT the thing for YEARS and never identified it.  Why?  He was reciting things, and only "understood" them in a rote way.  If were forced to explain them using completely different words, he would have been unable.

 

 

 

So, if you find vpw's approach is too mechanical, you're probably right. His "understanding" was from a shallow, intellect-only level of book-learning, and lacked completely any actual EXPERIENCE of subjects explaining EXPERIENCE.

I didn't say "too mechanical", I wrote "a very mechanical view of how it all 'worked'" 

Reducing the spiritual life, "pneumatikos", to lists and behavioral exercises is counter productive. PFAL and VPW's teachings were an assemblage of many influences and sources, including the positive-thinking movement (Peale, Hill, Carnegie) and others he ran across like Glenn Clark (who was influenced by Frank Rawlins) and all of the Camps and "advance/retreats" that were cropping up. There's a huge range of material he gathered from that includes B G Leonard and Bullinger, and others from whom he gathered the majority of his form and structure of class teaching. (parts of PFAL resemble scaled down portions of the book "How to Enjoy the Bible", etc. etc. etc. etc) 

PFAL and VPW's products were assemblages of the work of many others that he repackaged and marketed as his own. He was a product of the new-age, positive thinking movement too, the Glenn Clarks (camps, "advances", levers or prayer, athletes of the spirit were all areas he had done work in), and writers like Carnegie, Peale, Hill, and others.

To the extent I knew him for 17 years and worked for him for 7 I would say from my point of reference I learned him to be a mix of intentions, goals and motives, and not all bad ones or misguided. He was however singular and self promoting in his work so he never went beyond that, he wasn't exceptionally visionary, he was tied too much to the past and his own interests. His most interesting ideas never got off the ground or accomplished, and that's not to say they were "his" ideas or original, simply that there were some things he discussed doing back in the last 60's and early 70's that he never put effort into accomplishing. Once I saw that they weren't going to happen, I began to lose specific interest in devoting time and effort to to the Way's work. But that was me, and it was always a "work in progress". 

The original question asks about "revelation" and "impartation" "manifestations. The manner in which VPW teaches those in the Advanced Class starts with a categorical organization and they're broken out in sections. Beyond that as an exercise to learn them, I would never think of them that way - life is too fast, too spontaneous, too much happening at once. The spirit is both quick and powerful, and eternally efficient.

On 4/23/2025 at 7:27 AM, Joe Maslow said:

Is there any expert/book about this? Would you recommend me or guide for that matter? 

I've read all TWI books and Classes and also CES,STFI books but I still feel ignorant about that topic

On 4/8/2025 at 12:46 PM, Joe Maslow said:

Freedom, a new life, a new perspective about God and the Bible

An opportunity to love all people, to serve from something as basic as a warm greeting in the morning to saying thank you and please, not being a false servant in a group only to become a leader.

A wonderful chance to get closer to my family, that family from which I distanced myself because they did not participate in the ministry.

Excellent!

5 hours ago, Joe Maslow said:

TWI has changed a little bit during the recent years. But their change its only towards recover the "good old days" of VPW and PRE-LCM.  VPW is still the main figure and the functioning of the organization and psychological abuse towards people persists. They're not willing to apologize to people; they only ask them to forgive and move forward "in love" . It's sad, but they demand greater maturity from the "average" believer than they do from the leader. Forgiving someone does not immediately mean restoring the relationship or psychological healing. 

How it feel to be out and about? Big changes, little, much, not so much? 

On 3/2/2025 at 8:48 PM, Rocky said:

Oh the irony!  In the late 1980s, I married someone who had never been in twi. I tried (too hard) to do that too. It didn't work at all for me. My divorce was final in 1996. The irony is that my ex was proselytized by a Mormon divorce attorney and has been a practicing LDS follower ever since. She even (re)married someone from that church. That didn't work out for her either. One marriage was more than enough for me. I've also observed that the whole man is the head of the woman and/or marriage thing has very much gone out of style, I suppose except for hard core religious types. 

Socks, I too hope Mary Ann decided for herself and is happy now with her life as she is living it.

Ironic to say the least! 

I first met John in Indiana, in ‘73, and he was a rough cut. He was somewhat an innocent too, and very open hearted. Like all of us he was young and like everyone of that age, we were in the process of becoming adults, who we would be “when we grew up”. It’s been quite the journey hasn’t it? We may even finish growing up before we’re done. :) 

48 minutes ago, penworks said:

I babysat Rochelle Hendrix in 1983, 1984, when her dad and mom were limb leaders of Florida. John Henrdrix, her dad, is the one who suggested my husband and I go to HQ on staff. (See Undertow).

John had an ego the size of a barn. No surprise his daughter took over...

What happened to Mary Ann, the mom? She played the piano beautifully. 

Was that in the early 80's, about the time we were there, 82-83 ish? I remember Rochelle, vaguely.

John and Mary Ann were both from the 4th Corps, and he did have a big sense of himself to say the least. We got along well enough but we weren't as close as I would have liked. He must have been right after Billy was removed. 

I never got what CR&F was all about, post the Geer era. John had some very different views as to how the "spiritual" world worked, even when he was still employed by the Way. I liked John and he did have some good qualities, I can only imagine what ended up in any "class" he taught or what they're promoting. 

We did have a conflict that he thought Mary Ann was "past her prime" with playing music and didn't want her devoting more time to it, we had a lengthy conversation about that, Mary Ann accepted it, presumably as part of the mog/head of household role the Way taught was the husbands. It was their marriage. It was like a Mormonist-Islamist-Fundamentalist combo meal. I didn't agree with it, or his application but he didn't budge. I too hope she at least decided for herself later, and is happy now with her life as she's living it. 

On 12/16/2023 at 9:30 AM, Rocky said:

If only... one day... er, one month at a time.

I wish it was that simple. 

Managing expectations is a big part of it. Within that, setting realistic expectations is an important piece. PEACE! 
 

Hmmm....good observation. They own the name and the org, net, and com and may own others, including domains that redirect to the org or com site. Other Way friendly and influenced churches, operations, bureaus, remote offices and ministries and businesses world wide that the Way Nash recognizes and permits can use their name, and products too which builds brand strength and recognition. I'd also assume they've figured out SEO by now and have gotten past having everyone's kids advise them on technology and have gotten some professional guidance. Still the ol' World Wide Web recognizes usage so all the Facebook and other platforms they use with their name add to it. 

So technically they should come up first if you search their name(s). But if you search - is the way international a legitimate church? or is The Way International a cult? or what does the Way International really do on that farm? or my friend took a class by the Way International and now won't talk to me and needs money help even though he/she talks all the time about abundant life and needs being met and should I be concerned? or any number of other questions, different results will come up, including some of theirs. Sometimes. (it's the same if you search for the words Donald Trump, lots of current links come up, wikipedia, other government links etc, so you'd have to use a different term if you want to reinforce how much people love him or hate him, etc) (********* Please don't start any part of this as political, I know that's not allowed and I don't want anyone to lose their shit over seeing his name, especially an admin who can put it all on lockdown, so to clarify this is NOT political, just what I hope will be an easy to understand comparative example. Inset any other name if it serves better, thanks ************)

If GS Cafeteria wants more face time in search results without spending any money it will have to get some content up, some currently dated uploads, some clicks and click throughs, maybe cross pollinate some links to books and writers content that will build usage up. 

But search results will first try to answer specific questions, well, specifically. Try the question - is the Way a dangerous cult? - and see what comes up. 

It was inevitable - retention was terrible on their stats for years, people leaving, law suits, they had to keep their heads down and bide their time, and for the old crew that was about all they seemed to really want to do, that and get even with anyone that opposed them. But that was then - the last big walkout a few years ago may have been the last of the old timers who would have been competing with themselves for position (which is largely what I think they were all about the last 24 + years or so since they dumped Craig, who himself ascended to the throne of the Way having beat back some of his peers) 

What's left can almost tell a new narrative, one that still gives a nod to Dr VPW and PFAL ("PFALT" ) but can take the position that they aren't the bad guys, it's not your pappy's Way anymore and now that all the riff raff has left, it's a clean house and everything's fine and back to normal, even more normal than it EVER was. 

But to the question, their active presence online has brought them to the forefront. My suggestion, one way to get GS up front, continue going through old links and revitalize them, maybe add a comment that's current, get some search words pinging to the content. Try an seo optimization search, and proceed. 

Cheers and a grand '25 ahead for all! Stay safe and sound! 

8 hours ago, oldiesman said:

I find it hard to believe that my fellow believers in TWI didn't have a goal to help others.... I've experienced the opposite.   Have no regrets there.  What is regrettable now is selling a product (PFAL) that had unquestionable perfection or so we thought.

Each fellow believer in TWI can speak for themselves, oldie man, as do I. My goal was to help others, yes. At the same time I didn't enter it blindly, I knew clearly I didn't need the artifice of a religion, having already rejected formal Roman Catholicism, but I did now the support of a structure and commonly shared goals with others to live and work with had it's benefits. So my entry into the Way Corps specifically was a milestone decision to do 2 things - work with others in Christian outreach through music, and to learn up close and personal from Dr. Weirwille. I'd already taken the PFAL series, and pretty much had that under my belt, as well as starting to learn the research path he'd use and was using it myself. With my own characteristic tendency of my youth to under estimate my own progress and over value that of others, I didn't assume I knew as much as I did. I found out the real balance of it all within a couple years, and my own growth pattern was to correct that kind of tendency in myself. I did. 

You've drawn a line to the extreme of what I wrote about, including everyone all the time, which isn't what I wrote but the selling of PFAL is part of the clarification - nothing needs to be bought or sold to help others with the gosepl of God's grace through Jesus Christ, and selling PFAL didn't start with me or you. VPW decided that he was going to take what he claimed was God's revelation to him regarding the Word of God as it hadn't been known for 1000's of years and which was absolutely essential to knowing God as He truly wishes to be known - AND SELL IT.  To clarify 

VPW's primary goal was to promote his ministry of teaching, specifically PFAL after he filmed it in 1967 and then the series of classes around that. Those were the marketing tools being used to carry the teaching. Unfortunately he carried out that work to the elimination of anything else and surrounded himself with others who - at least for the time being and to his face - would buy into that whole cloth and continue to grow and value his original work and premises. 

Everyone didn't do that, of course, so don't characterize what I wrote as meaning that - BUT there were many who attached themselves to VPW's cart and made advancing up his pole of promotion part of carrying out the ministry of reconciliation and the work to accomplish that. That environment allows for the whole range of corrupt behavior to take hold - it doesn't have to but where personal achievement and profiteering is one's goal, the cockroaches are going to nest. 

Everyone? No. All the time? No. Dr. Weirwille's goals were obvious. I will recognize though that for those people who only knew the marketed Teacher Entertainer that rolled off his motor coach waving to the masses of Corps lined up at Emporia to welcome The Man of God home with applause and gifts, who heard the rough hewn Farmer Teacher one day, cagy Businessman the next and then the devout Teacher Researcher the next day then finally to sit in the room with the Man of God declaring yet more light for his age, and never wondered just what all that was really about - might not have gotten the full picture. 

19 hours ago, penworks said:

Socks, your phrase "external contact" jumps out at me. In my Way experience, the purpose of engaging with people who were not involved in The Way was to recruit them into it. Not be influenced by them to the point that you'd leave The Way or try to change it.

Since there were thousands of us involved over many years, there are probably many variations on this theme of "external exposure."

Here's a link to what I wrote about things to consider when evaluating Way stories.

REVISED Speaking of "Way" Stories ... | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

Cheers!

It's something we are very aware of. By that I mean, meant, good mental and emotional health needs contact with other people, the human condition has a social component to it, Bloom's taxonomy and Maslow's hierarchy of needs and such, provide us with ways to understand the place for it. There is a lot of thought that posits our need for connection is biological, deeply so. My own inquiry into those ideas started as a pursuit of getting a better understanding of what pastoral service is in the church, and it's broadened my overall understanding of how important it is to life overall. Survival, community, belonging, creativity, curiosity, family, acceptance, rejection, love, there are so many things tied to developing relationships and having contact of all types with others.

To your point - when all of that is tied to a single outcome or goal that is important only because it achieves what I want, it's considered narcissism - my satisfaction comes before the needs of others. What we saw in the Way's strategic outreach wasn't all that unusual for businesses and people driven by greed and pride, where a product can be sold that others might in fact need but where the goal isn't really to help others, it's to make profits. VPW was all about result as long as they grew numbers and made that the profit, everything had to be "profitable". But it would be considered a contradiction by Christian standards where the judgment and tallying of our value isn't done by us, nor are we the creators or progenitors of the plan, nor its continuance. 

It's the failing of many churches of course, and The Way was it's own boss by design. VPW condemned churches and any effort that wasn't part of his business plan. And it's still seen today by what they're doing now, as well as some of the splinter groups - they want a comfort level that's based on old familiar ways and traditions and they keep spieling the same stuff that keeps it going. 

20 hours ago, Twinky said:

Way to go! ... not.  A very painful way to die, and to achieve absolutely nothing for it.  He could have achieved so much more had he chosen to protest by a less violent method.

I don't know that that would have been part of his cultic background, though.

Somehow I ran across the Community of Jesus in the 70's and got their newsletters for a few years, back at the Way Nash. Being raised Catholic I associated them with the nuns/"sisters" of the Catholic orders, although they weren't Roman Catholic at all, and were a sect of the Episcopal church if memory serves. Kind of doing their own thing but mostly devoted to prayer and benevolent kinds of activities, iirc. 

One common trend in these organizations when they go sideways is that they are so internally focused and self reliant. It can be gradual, or by design but it seems apparent that the human condition needs air, it needs external exposure. We can survive on our own and may have to, but we do well with healthy roots and external contact. Jesus led a lifestyle that shows that I think, although His life had a different purpose (Messiah)

6 hours ago, penworks said:

No, she is not related to them. I asked her.

Thanks!

On 7/26/2024 at 5:31 AM, penworks said:

That substack by Liz Childers is remarkable in that she shows so well what her cult experience was like and how it continues to affect her today. She writes in such a brave, down-to-earth way, with clarity and deep understanding.

Cheers to Liz!

Charlene

Hi there - I saw the writer was Liz Childers. Haven't seen Tom or Madeline Childers in years, they were from northern California, a bit older than we were when we met them but very nice people as I recall. Any idea - is Liz a daughter or grand daughter, Charlene? 

On 5/15/2024 at 8:25 PM, Charity said:

Hi, Socks.  Thank you for your post and your well wishes.  I’ve always liked your twirling, dancing character.

I want to understand the gist of what you are saying, so I hope you don’t mind that I condensed it down to some main points.  Feel free to correct any misunderstandings I may have arrived at.

Concerning your beliefs, personal events and experiences have enabled you to form your view of God, your life, your purpose and who you are.  The bible also helps you with this but not necessarily in the sense of needing to commit to a prescribed set of beliefs.   

In addition to these, a long history of "miraculous" events have shown you a growing and very wide horizon in which there is a godly presence and what you call "forces of nature" far greater and widespread than I can imagine. 

One specific miraculous event became a defining moment in what you believe.  There were outside forces involved which benefited your life in a special or particular way. 

Over the years you have come to know that your “faith” is your own as it is founded on things you have found to be true and reliable, two of which are Jesus Christ and a redemptive purpose in your life. 

Finally, you want to find the sources and instruction which will better make known to you a present reality of which we are all a part – a reality that helps us to best fulfill its purpose for our lives. 

Here are some questions I have. Are the forces of nature related to or because of God’s active presence in your life or are the two separate from each other?  Do you believe it's always been God or the forces of nature (or both) behind the miraculous events over the years?  Do you think Jesus Christ has proven to be true and reliable because you have remained aware of his redemptive work in your life? Is the reality you speak of a kind of benevolent relationship you have with someone or something? 

What I seem to be seeing is a physical and spiritual life that is free of any authoritative forces or demands but instead is the result of a genuine thankfulness and a willingness to keep God and Jesus Christ in your life which in turn has allowed you live an authentic and progressive life.  I'm interested in knowing about any challenges you've had along the way with your faith and how they were resolved if you are inclined to share them.

Thanks again Socks.

On 5/15/2024 at 8:25 PM, Charity said:

Hi, Socks.  Thank you for your post and your well wishes.  I’ve always liked your twirling, dancing character.

I want to understand the gist of what you are saying, so I hope you don’t mind that I condensed it down to some main points.  Feel free to correct any misunderstandings I may have arrived at.

Concerning your beliefs, personal events and experiences have enabled you to form your view of God, your life, your purpose and who you are.  The bible also helps you with this but not necessarily in the sense of needing to commit to a prescribed set of beliefs.   

In addition to these, a long history of "miraculous" events have shown you a growing and very wide horizon in which there is a godly presence and what you call "forces of nature" far greater and widespread than I can imagine. 

One specific miraculous event became a defining moment in what you believe.  There were outside forces involved which benefited your life in a special or particular way. 

Over the years you have come to know that your “faith” is your own as it is founded on things you have found to be true and reliable, two of which are Jesus Christ and a redemptive purpose in your life. 

Finally, you want to find the sources and instruction which will better make known to you a present reality of which we are all a part – a reality that helps us to best fulfill its purpose for our lives. 

Here are some questions I have. Are the forces of nature related to or because of God’s active presence in your life or are the two separate from each other?  Do you believe it's always been God or the forces of nature (or both) behind the miraculous events over the years?  Do you think Jesus Christ has proven to be true and reliable because you have remained aware of his redemptive work in your life? Is the reality you speak of a kind of benevolent relationship you have with someone or something? 

What I seem to be seeing is a physical and spiritual life that is free of any authoritative forces or demands but instead is the result of a genuine thankfulness and a willingness to keep God and Jesus Christ in your life which in turn has allowed you live an authentic and progressive life.  I'm interested in knowing about any challenges you've had along the way with your faith and how they were resolved if you are inclined to share them.

Thanks again Socks.

I tried to answer some of this but it didn't post so maybe I screwed it up or maybe it will later, or whatever. I see there's an array of notes about the thread, the direction, the this or that, something being locked, unlocked.  I don't get it, and it's too tiresome for my old brain. If you'd like I can send a more detail response in email, message me here an address. I promise not to deluge you with ads for books, gadgets or health beverages. : p

Hi Charity. Reading what you've written throughout made me think of a couple things I'll share, not sure that it's to "help" at all, but just to give my perspective on what you're doing.

First of which is, you appear to be having a pretty normal experience, living your life the only way you can, which is from your side of the experience. Your life, your story, your stuff. As far as I know nothing of this life survives the inevitable end of it's duration. The stuff stays, every bit of it. If there is something that persists it will be "you", and I'm convinced that whether immediately, over time or someday later, the best of what I am and have done will continue through eternity and in the form of "me", and the life I will continue to have. So to me, authenticity is very important, being as real and honest with myself as I can be. I would encourage you to continue being that, being you and working through this life. 

Secondly, to describe my own "beliefs"  I do use the bible's history, stories and records as a means to understand life. It's not an entirely "faith based" set of beliefs though. I have a lifetime of events and experiences that have built and formed my view of "God", and life. They've taught me, showed me, provided me, given me a growing sense of who I am, what I'm doing and where I'm going. Of the spiritual aspects, call them the metaphysicals, a long history of "miraculous" events have continued through my years. These have shown me both in the moments and then in retrospect a growing and very wide horizon in which there is a godly presence and what I call "forces of nature" far greater and widespread than I can imagine. I can't pretend to grasp all of it but over time I do have what I consider a way to see life, the world I'm in and what I'm doing in it and that includes things that to most others might seem impossible or the products of a delusional mind. But they're real events, delusional or not. Meaningful to me, if not others and even confusing to those who can vouch for them if not explain them as I would. so - I'm just saying I've learned to accept that my life is - mine. I'll share it and live it with others as best I can but I will do my best to not live by someone else's standards if I don't agree with them. To that degree I pursue choice and freedom of will, to the extent it exists for me. 

One defining moment of my beliefs came to clarity when it occurred with me and my entire family involved in a miraculous event that unquestionably revealed forces at work we were not in control of and not at the center of, but that were specifically directed to our benefit. During that set of events, each one of us have a different memory of what happened about the same thing - each person's involvement was unique and their own and as a result had different meaning but very clearly all experienced the same thing. Later when that sunk in I realized something so obvious yet powerful that it was overwhelming, life changing. And so it's gone over the years and why I say I know my "faith" is my own. I trust in things that others might not, but based on my life's learning they're true and reliable. This includes a belief in the life's purposes of the Jesus Christ of biblical record and the idea of a redemptive purpose to life.

Which is a long way of saying, I've learned that if I try to be as honest and thoughtful as I can be I seem to be getting through it all at my own pace and the pace I need to. I'm not a warm and fuzzy foo-foo-your-truth-my-truth kind of thinker, I do believe that there is a reality of which we are part of that is providing the structure and functionality that allows us to consciously go forward in time and that can be learned and understood to some degree.

The task is to find the sources and instruction to teach me about that so that I can live the life I'm here to live - which is what I'm doing, amongst other things but I think that's the priority that informs everything I do, trite or serious or whatever it might be that I'm fuzzing around with that at the moment.   : )

I wish you the best, you deserve it. We all do, and why not? We didn't get to choose when we were born or who would bring us forth or even when....yet here we are. That in itself is astounding. 

On 5/5/2024 at 9:27 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

How does TWI's doctrinal glove of a spared Jesus on the cross fit the Christian hand of Christ crucified? What is their logic? How do they MAKE the errant Lamsa translation fit?

From what do they claim Jesus was spared? Certainly not torture and execution. And how should one believe God raised Jesus from the dead if he was spared death?

 

The idea of the Aramaic phrase and the translation of it ("that is to say") is that Jesus said, for this purpose He was kept, reserved, spared...it doesn't carry the emphasis of being kept/reserved/spared from something (like death) but rather that His life had been kept/reserved/spared for something, for a purpose and the His death was going to be part of accomplishing that. The purpose was his life and death, the crucifixion which was in fact the next phase of the redemptive plan of His life. 

There are lots of iterations of that phrase, some are similar, others different to what VPW had taught from Lamsa's translation and that they seem to be regurgitating. I do agree that a cry of victory to God at that time makes more sense in the entire context of the gospel records than a cry of confusion and desperation.  

https://thewaymagazine.com/did-god-forsake-jesus-as-he-was-dying-on-the-cross/

Thanks cman and chockfull, WW for the topic thread and opening up so many aspects to it all. 

PFAL's teaching on this attempts to off an answer to the question of how we came to be, how the earth and the universe we see around us came to be to the end it produced us today, and account for all the fossil records and prehistoric evidence of the past.  

But what if I take that question away, what if I'm not trying to have a Bible, "faith based"  response to evolution or the age of the earth or prehistoric fossils or where this all came from that fits with anything else....? What if I'm just reading the Bible and taking what it says at face value? I have a record that isn't all that hard to understand, with a little study, and on face value. I don't know what it all means, by any means, but I know what I'm reading to a great extent.  

One thing PFAL did point out of course is that the English translations of all those ancient Hebrew and Greek scrolls and scriptures are subject to interpretation - which is what VPW did with PFAL. There is no effort to translate one language into another that doesn't require interpretation - of words, grammar, history, culture, usage and on and on. VPW posited a process that's fairly conservative, in my opinion but then I wasn't and still aren't trying to attack or defend anything. If it was recipes for Chili it might not be a big deal but sure, anything of such importance is going to be a challenging effort, to say the least. So here we are. I can read and learn today, without the artificial impetus of supporting anything other than a God who creates with purpose, loves like a Father and Who has shared Jesus Christ with me to bring me to the place I need to be in this life to live it as He would have it and I am privileged to work out.

But I don't need an answer to evolution - if the Bible is to be taken at "it's Word", at face value, then I believe the best approach is to just read it, study it, do my best to learn it and from it, and let it speak for itself. It doesn't need to "fit like a hand in a glove", it doesn't need to harmonize or organize by my standards or any I put on it. It will, it does, but that was NEVER the intention of the Bible, the "Word of God". Men organize, God creates. Men wear gloves that fit, God doesn't, He is the fit. Men lie, God doesn't. 

The written Word is a human effort. I do believe I benefit from the efforts of men and women in the past to write and pass on what they lived and learned. I expect a level of integrity to it. I also understand that doing something by "inspiration" of God doesn't guarantee literary perfection, using an imperfect tool to build a perfect outcome. This is "Treasure in earthen vessels" at best, indeed.  Any perfection or higher standards of accomplishment I see in the Bible and learn from it have to be the product of God's divine interaction over thousands of years. To be celebrated yes, taught yes. So I have no problem with people putting forth teaching and guidance with intention and passion, myself included. 

Peace and love and music and stuff! 

Interesting topic, my response is to what the meaning of Genesis 1:1 and 2 is and considering the Way's teaching on it, going back to VPW and PFAL. 

VPW seemed to have accepted the interpretation of Genesis 1: 1 and 2 from Bullinger's work, who held that the Hebrew word "hayeha" translated and meant became, rather than was (the root is "to be"). So with the words tohu va boho he read it "became without form, and void"....as if to say - the earth was created one way in verse 1 - and then it became without form and was void".

“form and void” - I seem to recall that phrase isn't actually 2 things but was a kind of hebrew homophone....I may not have that exactly right, but the best I understand it's meaning is that it isn't two different things - not form, and void as the english reads in KJV - but it describes a formless state and basically means no form, formless or empty - which adds a very interesting context to the record then, not that it's literal but rather simply the idea of an emptiness, formless(ness), a state of not being filled or put into order....and so on. So verses 1 and 2 could read something like "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form".

Two things are covered - the heavens (whatever that is) and the earth (whatever this is) and the earth is, at that time, without form.

The bibles books cover a history of the earth and mankind and their creator, God. That's the perspective of the narrative, God and His creation, specifically the earth and mankind. A lot of other things are covered too but it would seem clear the vast detail, such as there is, deals with those things, not the whole of everything else that was or is. 

VPW seemed to take the Bullinger translation as a way to explain how the earth could have millions of years of history - a first heaven and earth in which God created…whatever it was He created and then between verses 1 and 2, the earth became messed up, formless, in a degraded, destroyed state.

Or - 1 and 2 are a continuous thought - in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth and the earth was without form and darkness was upon the face of the deep and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Some research notes a use of the figure of speech polysyndeton in the greek text and used throughout Genesis 1. Forms of anaphora are commonly used in any language to add impact, as a rhetorical tool. It’s still used today, a lot. So again, to me Genesis reads as more or a continuous set of statements that go through the creation record, rather than what amounts to a Grand Canyon size hole between verse 1 and 2.

And of course, there’s no real detail of any kind about what that verse 1 earth would have been like, other than to offer a biblical explanation for fossils we find today from millions of years ago that seemingly contradict the record in Genesis. So it is a huge assumption that aside from a few verses that refer to what are interpreted as related events (Lucifer’s fall from “heaven”, etc) there is never any reference in the Bible at all to what that first creation would have been like. Even the idea that Adam and Eve were told to “replenish” the earth I understand to mean it to “fill” the earth, not re fill it, again.

Granted, the biblical authors weren’t scientists or archaeologists but from their perspective in the human history it could seem to make more sense that there’d be reference to what would have been if there was ANY knowledge of it, passed down over time. But there isn’t, really. So while Adam and Eve wouldn’t have necessarily known what had come before, the author would have had to, to some extent if the “became void” was the correct translation…..sot to me anyway, there’s mostly a void of that making any sense after I read the rest of the bible.

As a researcher VPW struggled with his linear literalist thinking. On the one hand he wanted the Bible to be taken literally where it could be, while at the same time informing any textual translation with huge amounts of figurative and historical information (“orientalisms”, figures of speech and  context considerations that spanned generations, etc etc) Die hard Weirwille-ites want to make that out to be a strength but over the years it seems obvious he used it all to support his earliest convictions, not add to them or certainly not to change them.

But to be perfectly honest, I don’t know for sure about Genesis 1:1 and 2 - there’s a lot of translation work that supports a bunch of conclusions. I know all of the other references that try to fit some history into the space between verses 1 and 2 aaaaaaand, I'm not so sure. Today I will say I tend towards it being a continuous creation record and 1 and 2 that moves right into 3 and forward. "YMMV". Hope this adds to the discussion. 

On 10/23/2023 at 12:46 PM, WordWolf said:

This is "About the Way"?

 

This is an old point. Responses to it are pretty much predictable.  Either it's an actual account of something that happened to that effect, or it isn't even close to anything that happened. 

If it isn't close to anything that happened, then there's nothing else to discuss, the account is unreliable, the book is unreliable, and the codex is unreliable.  This isn't news to anyone- anyone who says this already was saying those.

If it's an actual account, we have to take into account the ability of the then-contemporary readers and listeners to make sense of things.  (That's clear no matter WHO wrote it.)  I can easily posit that an All- Mighty God could pause the Earth and suspend all consequences, since He would have the power to do so.   However, if asked my opinion, I think it's more likely that an All-Mighty God would produce the effect, and let the puny people understand it their way without any need to educate them to 21st century scientific understanding.   I would posit that all planets, stars, etc continued as normal, and that what was altered was the light hitting the Earth.  An All-Mighty God could certainly do so, which would lengthen, shorten, or abruptly begin or end a day.  

Granted, this would certainly be on the high end of fantastic for a miracle, but that's not proof of anything by itself.   If there is an All-Mighty God, He COULD do exactly this, and if there wasn't, then the account was simply cooked.  

How would we know which was the answer?  Everyone's answer to that is that this was a closed issue before they reached these verses.  Either they already believed or they already dis-believed.   It goes to the general body of evidence long before it gets here.

I agree. Anyone that uses the Bible as source material could have the same question. In that sense it's more of a general theological discussion. And to my knowledge VPW took the record on face value. 

Tyson I can accept but so much of the world of butt-hurt anti-religious drones celebrate him as their own personal patron saint of the New Age of Science and Data. Not you Rocky, this isn't personal to you, just my reaction which I admit is, you know, biased by my own opinions. 

Sure, he comes off narcissistic and in love with his own voice, but he's an astrophysicist and one helluva "science communicator" with a respectable education and resume. He can bang the drum and get the word out and he's done so successfully. What he doesn't do for me is engage me in a way that pushes me to know more, to get answers for questions I have - but that's me, and this only speaks for me.

So sure, that's me and I suppose to some it just indicates what a flawed person I am and how biased and bent my thinking is so how COULD I ever get answers. Right? But aside from that, that's how he strikes me.

Not everything can be measured by the known measuring tools - or CAN it....? .... but if it could be then how would I ever learn if there WERE any new ways to learn, perceive, etc? Knowledge is - to me - isn't really subjective or objective, by nature. The struggle is to learn what is real, what is true and the struggle is real. To that end Tyson does encourage the scientific process and I respect that, but I also have other means by which I learn and he's not my go to guy for that. 

But overall, I don't think VPW had any response to that record specifically that was unusual to the norm of what most religious views would be.

On 10/23/2023 at 1:26 PM, Rocky said:

Yes, it IS about the Way. The question/issue is, how did or would Victor Wierwille deal with this passage of scripture.

"If there is an All-Mighty God..." is a reframing of the philosophical question "can/could God make a rock heavier than he could lift?"

There is NO logical answer to either. But thank you for adding your insight.  

He did read this record in a few teachings, I forget what the topics were, it might have been part of some Advanced Class sessions over the years, I can't quite place it.

He didn't try to explain it or offer an explanation as to what effects of such an event would have been, or would be, that I recall. 

As far as the record goes, you're correct, if someone of that time wanted to extend the day so they could continue fighting in daylight, they had no idea the earth rotated the sun in any way that would have compared to how it was later understood, my impression of the record is that Joshua just wanted to delay night fall. As far as any literal understanding of the record the issue isn't the ask - it's the part that says, "So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on ^b its enemies"...it seems to confirm the wrong thing. 

And I guess on some level of what-if, the record could have read "and then the Word of the Lord came to Joshua in a  big PowerPoint screen that showed him yea all of Israel,  how the earth rotated the sun and yea verily thus be it so and as it was will be, it was as Joshua had asked, and they continued to kick their enemies ass for as long as was necessary. Amen."

But it didn't of course. I take it at face value having asked for some rather outrageous things myself over the years and learned that what I think is happening and what I need isn't always what's really happening and what I need. This record might tell us that as far as the people who carried this story forward and into the canon of scrip, Joshua got what he needed to win that battle and that there was an extraordinary component to it, something that they remembered, was worth retelling because it was so extraordinary. 

1 hour ago, waysider said:

But, then again, it might simply mean you're "on the ball".

When a brown metal folding chair seems to be the only kind that feels comfortable so you tell your local Leadership that and act like its a good thing....
You just might be brainwashed. 

When you can't remember if it's your night to bring the coffee, or the cookies, so you just bring both because you know you'll get reproved if you bring the wrong thing...
You just might be brainwashed. 

When the dial in number goes dead and there's no sound but you just stare at the speaker because you want to report to Leadership what you did and tell them "that's just how faithful" you really are...
You just might be brainwashed. 

If your local Leaders criticizes a local "believer" because they don't give a lot in abundant sharing by saying "I'm glad I don't have to try and live off what they give!" and you don't take the opportunity to tell them what an asshole they really are...
You just might be brainwashed. 

(and yes, they all actually happened)

If you hear the joke about "millions now smoking" for the 758th time and laugh on cue...
You just might be brainwashed. 

On 1/31/2024 at 6:07 PM, penworks said:

 

Socks said: The original RoA was a night during the Winter Advance of 1971 that was called Rock of Ages. That summer of 1971 was the first R of A gathering. Over the next few years the event went from local fairgrounds to the Way's property in New Knoxville, "the farm". 
 

Yes, and I was there at all of them, Socks, just like you. Great to meet you then and hear from you now! You were/are one of the "real" ones.

The photo below appeared in The Toledo Blade newspaper. It captures the stage dynamic from ROA August, 1971, at The Way HQ near the pond. 

On a personal note, I happened to be the Corps applicant who painted the banner at the back of the stage "The Word Over the World." I used orange paint, who knows why? And I remember making the banner out of oiled canvas up in the barn under dangling light bullbs (from the rafters) on a makeshift table made of plywood held up by wooden "horses," like the ones they use to stop traffic.

I think that autobiographical detail is relayed in Undertow. Anyway, I hear that the WOW phrase is trademarked now. Lemme go back and paint a superscript TM on that banner, okay?

To any staff member at HQ who is reading these posts here at Greasespot Cafe, I can't imagine any young people today would jump at the chance to re-enact such hippiedom-yoked to-Bible-thumping. But maybe I'm wrong. Stranger things have happened.

Cheers, and you, you real one! I like that photo, that - if that's from 1971, it could be the Sunday Night Service when everyone was on stage during the closing evening events. Orange paint? Cool. That's interesting. Nice choice actually. 

My take, considering the theory of the cyclical nature of systems and the good ol' laws of inertia, The Way Nash and its current iteration is pretty much what you'd expect - more of the same. I know they probably see all sort of steps towards change and godly inspiration and even guidance - but one thing history shows us is that change happens very slowly on a large scale, even when it happens very fast. I have only to look at the Bible's history timeline and I can see that. A messiah promised, expected, then - Jesus. Something might seem huge and monumental to "us" at the time, sure but factored into a 10,000 years it's a data point. Imagine what this all seems like to an eternal perspective? 

Still, we are who we are in the time we are and there's no one else but us to do what only we can do. So...we do. Stuff. 

We were talking with some friends our age about the whole "hippy" era and how it's memory and many of the period's artifacts have endured into today's culture. I was a teenager in the "summer of love" era, got around because I was playing so much music in the SF Bay Area, but a tad young for full participation. But many of the people of that era still live the life and gather to celebrate it. (you remember Crowbar....? Saw him at a club years ago, he's all in it and doing well bless his heart, I mostly hear through other friends and source of his ongoing efforts - in a lot of ways he's one of the many "real remnants" of the Christian faith that brought us all across each other's paths so long ago) 

Anyhoo, hope you're doing well! I enjoy keeping up with your writing. Take care! 

7 minutes ago, chockfull said:

socks!  We have a sighting 

So funny about the parallel elderly groups.  We do have an R&R splinter group going on - I do think it must stand for Rest Home and Rehab 

my take is the brain trust probably all saw the matinee show for The Jesus Revolution and had an epiphany.

But the people would rather see the Jesus Revolution than PLAF-T

Why?  Because Christianity is for the masses not the brasses.  And Jesus in peoples hearts is better than a fat lie about “The Teacher” chewed up in 4 different cow stomachs and regurgitated for the world once more.

Peace.

Hmmmm...yes. That's an interesting correlation you made there. I bet you're right. 

That brings up a lot of thoughts. Thanks! 

21 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

I did a bit of a deep dive into these young people and many of them are the sons and daughters of old Way people. 3rd generation lifers, not new people. Word Wolf makes sense with his comment. I just want a Wow Burger.  

My favorite R of A dinner was a WOW burger with ketchup and mustard. And a Snickers candy bar, with coffee. Two sugars. Good eats.