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socks last won the day on August 1 2022

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  • Birthday 09/15/1950

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  1. Low. Very low. It's been about 20 years since the original was posted. During the discussions some things have been been clarified - no "last teaching" was actually "lost", and any case made to contend that it was willfully hidden or denied access to is unproven and factually untrue - I had heard that teaching. Copies circulated later amongst some of the WC and other members, as so much of what he'd said and written did. In that teaching VPW delivered parts of the core message he'd taught many many times before. The significance at the time was clear to many, in the context of his age and how the organization he'd started was already going under and had been, due in no small part to his own decisions, actions and intent. ("the Word of God", the Logos, is however still just that and as life goes on in our lives it will continue to "live" - no one's going to quench that) Then as now Mike says he's covered more "data than most of you, and after having more time to sift through it all than most of you", with no wife or children, he's had plenty of time to immerse himself in this, his chosen interest. And he's willing to share it. Here. So - Mike, to be clear, I'm not interested and won't be getting into this cycle of interest, beyond what I've written in these last three comments. I'm not a voice of moderation that will bridge any gap between extremes, in the context of this and the related discussions. GreaseSpot Cafe has been established as a place where "the other side of the story" can be told and it's been seen that there are as many sides as there are people, and all can speak to theirs. You too. Years ago at some point and for a time, your threads were being put in the Doctrinal section, as they actually deal with a topic that works from one or more doctrinal premises - well, that should, anyway. You balked at being restricted to what I think you called the "basement" - you wanted top level views where everyone could see what you wrote and you felt it wouldn't get attention there. (I'd actually suggested you be suspended or banned for a time, but that's not my decision and you never were, that I knew of, which I accepted and moved on.) Be that as it may or was or is or will be, your opinions are allowed here and others respond. I wish you no ill. I would still suggest you take a path of establishing your own online platform and repository where you can speak your mind and message and collaborate in a public setting with those of like mind, perhaps ask one of the many people that no doubt support what you're doing to assist with the tasks of doing so if you're unable to. You've been at this for many years now, surely there are others ready to move forward with you, making the way for others to follow. Right? Peace homeez! Love y'all!
  2. I have had a few people contact me after they tried here and which I didn’t see till much later, regarding music. I don’t really browse the topics, but I did get a chuckle out of this thread being rekindled. I will say - I’ve explained to a few people about that “moderation” thing - I’m not and I don’t seek that out as a means to learn and experience - well, “ more or less”. I’m much more interested in process and methodology and understanding shared principled approaches. But I have no moderation for, say, my story or what I know to be true, such as that is. I don’t expect others to be about themselves either nor should they be. We all own our own stories, our life’s work and our gift of life and our choices. I’m actually - well I try to be - disciplined on how I think and in how I think about how I think. I work with binomial probability theorems and outcomes and distributions. I do try to be gentle with others but that’s “primum non nocere”. I can always exhort, encourage, support and try to understand, with Gods mercy and allowance and o try to do that. To me there’s no grand outcome in knowledge or even actions in and of themselves until there is a heart of humanity in them, just as “God so loved”, that He gave.
  3. I haven't been following this, so I just saw it while browsing notifications. If you're asking - can I see a change happening here (at GSC) toward constructive criticism, I wouldn't know, I'm not active enough on the current GSC platform to have a valid opinion. If you're asking could it (actually) be possible for (a) change toward constructive criticism to happen on GSC - well, "all things are possible" with God so I'd suggest starting there. I see the value of what I learned in PFAL. Specific to PFAL, over the last 50 plus years I've learned a great deal about the world of VPW's time and life and the theological soup he ladled from, if you will. I've learned a great deal in addition to that too. Call PFAL a very big data point in my timeline but it's one of many. I don't mean to diminish anyone's contribution to me from that era, but the contributions he did make to me are not going to be obvious to most and could even lack significance to others. I can always say I do appreciate that we were able to work together, for a time, on Way Productions and the outreach of the gospel through music. I'd offer this - in a very broad way I think that GSC as a whole (historically, across all membership and activity levels) has always had a flow of constructive criticism. Not all of the contributions are equally constructive or in the same ways of course but it would be arguable that at some baseline the purpose of the running dialogue is, has been, constructive for those involved or observing. Put another way, if it was important and meaningful to them, it was important and meaningful and that could be useful, constructive, helpful to someone, regardless of what it added to anyone else purposes - or if it added anything at all. So while you or I have our own purposes, they may not be the same purposes as others and if it's not, that won't mean that others aren't accomplishing or at least trying to do their own work.
  4. I'm not denigrating him. That means to criticize unfairly. I'm not being unfair. I'm being clear, and for someone with the potential for verbosity that I have, pretty concise. I'm also being honest, as far as I'm concerned because a person can't understand how and why the Way Inc. went the way it did without understanding how horribly bad he performed as President of the Way Inc. in both his personal and private lives. I can say something that will help Bolshy - if he'd like help with a specific set of circumstance he has encountered he'll need to say what it is, clearly. Till then I just wish him the best with whatever it is or was that's bugging him because it's largely academic without specificity. And he could do that here with a degree of anonymity, and it could be discussed openly. Just as Waydale allowed. And if others take exception or use the information for evil it'll be a repeat of what seems to have happened before, if I'm reading right. I guess. Hard to say.
  5. "I recall one time he hauled me in, was surprisingly restrained, and told me he didn't know why God had so much patience with me when I made so many mistakes and was so disobedient. " VPW used to say things like that and Craig, all the Way bosses who mimicked them like lapdogs would say things like that - It's such an ungodly false and devilishly untrue statement. Christ is our intercessor, on the right hand of God and acting continually on our behalf as our intercessor. He's our Redeemer, the captain of our salvation. Grace and mercy are ours through the finished work of Christ. OF COURSE GOD IS PATIENT WITH US, ALL THE TIME. If anything we are thankful that God is patient and with us, every second, every day. It's so painfully obvious how he valued his own ego and man made religious rules above the Word of God. He could rip and rail on others for breaking a rule but didn't blink an eye on his own adulterous behavior and LYING ABOUT IT EVERY DAY TO THE ENTIRE MINISTRY. I think it strikes me as so sad because after all these years I'd be thrilled to hear he was doing well, that he'd been able to work with others who helped him. I had someone send me a link to some online videos of him teaching. He's at it somewhere, wherever, and that dark, gloomy voice of his has gotten even more foreboding. He still can't open his mouth without condemning everyone else and sounding like a prick. Patience? He's certainly benefitting from it himself.
  6. Of course they did, I thought I made that clear. I'm not sure what you're saying happened to me, and being surprised, etc? I pretty much accepted Waydale, per WYSIWYG. Paul Allen never promised anything to anyone, but in doing what he did with Waydale he gave the ex Way universe a grand gift. As I said, IMO it was unprecedented and as you point out, the technology was at a perfect point to use it as he did. It was really a kind of tipping point now that we can look back. Waydale allowed for "the other" or perhaps arguably "another" side of the story to be told. Unfortunately that story was filled with a lot of bad things. People do bad things so if that reflected badly on others or closed one door while opening another, in any sense, it's the Way's fault, Martindale's fault for being such a prideful man, ego led and with all the intelligence of a bag of rocks and at his worst a heart of darkness lurking in his twisted machinations. The endless hours of hate filled spew he shoved down the staff and Corps' throats every lunch time and evening meeting created an environment of fear and defeat. They were so internalized as his reign of terror progressed I wouldn't take any negative possibilities off the table. And Allen gave those people and those before them a place for their voice to be heard. Finally. For better or worse, right or wrong, good or bad. The light was on. I suspect we agree in whole or part, maybe there's a misunderstanding on my part, if so don't worry about it, I won't. I may not be back for a bit but I did feel compelled to chime in on this topic as I know we were part of the Waydale experience. PEACE! n LOVE!
  7. Waydale - nothing's ever perfect and we all know that. Waydale had a lot of twists and turns in it's tenure. I would agree in part that as a result of 100's, 1000's of people coming together to discuss their issues, problems, challenges and complaints about the Way and it's activities over many many years in what was unprecedented freedom of discussion there could be negative impacts on some people, in and out. Waydale had no ability to vette or qualify information posted and I myself know of some things that were untrue and heresay and I did have my own debates about things but...the purpose was to give a platform for people to write, to "speak" freely. This did lead to some of the most powerful and meaningful words I've ever read anywhere, about anything. Waydale was a game changer in the "ex Way" community, for those who had left or been expelled. It wasn't the first online community that dealt specifically with the Way - Trancenet had an ex Way community formed before it and I believe there were other small newsgroup discussions going on, at last I'd seen some, but Waydale was uniquely successful in attracting oldies and newbies alike and become a magnet reconnecting people who hadn't seen or talked to each other for years. For decades the greater community of those who had left or been kicked out of the Way for whatever reasons had never really been brought together into one place to tell their stories. Enter Paul Allen. He built a professional looking website front end and loaded up the discussion forum using EZ Board. You could register and participate anonymously so there were no fear tactics like the Way had used to smear and destroy reputations of people that disagreed with them. The spark caught and it grew and lit up, literally. Allen's strategy was very smart - he was legit and had his own life on the table with the lawsuit he had filed. He was also pretty stand up about the whole thing in that he didn't puke all over the internet with rants and raves or the kind of profane blathering that Martindale was known for and proud of. He had a case and he made it and invited others to share their own stories. He wasn't overly complicated either, it was pretty easy to understand where he was coming from. There were no guarantees that it would grow but it did. And it gave voice to a group of people who were now able to say what they had experienced, good or bad, and discuss and debate all of it with anyone to any extent they wished. There was a good share of flotsam and jetsam too but - and this was very new to ex Wayfers - it was possible to ask, question, challenge, and do it all in the "open" and each person could draw their own conclusions. It could get nasty, weird, childish, trite, even ignorant. At first I was a little sketchy about some of the stuff I read, it seemed pretty hateful. Then it sank in - for years the Way had sh it on anyone it wanted to and then told them - "taught" them from the Word - that they were supposed to just accept it and deal with it and "God would still bless them" for "following the Man of God", and did that over and over and over....uh, hell yes, there's going to be some heat coming back off them. I once had someone message me that "Paul Allen is off the Word! He shouldn't be doing a lawsuit, going outside the Church, he should settle this inside, with the leadership and believers!" I don't know how long I laughed after reading that but I did respond by asking them "And who do you think he could trust to honestly settle the matter? Craig?"......I never got an answer that I remember but uh, no. And yes, we don't want to be litigious over every hang nail but when it's serious and you're dealing with a group like the Way that makes it's own rules, answers to no external authority and refuses to deal with it unless drug into court, yeah, you use the courts. I wish you the best Bolshevik and a good life in this one and the next. You deserve it. We all do.
  8. I listened to and spot checked some of his recording of 3-12-22. I don't know who his audience is or who he thinks he's talking to but apparently he's going to continue lecturing to his own navel if that's what it comes to. He still spends most of his time criticizing everyone else, others "distortions" and skewed logic. By the time he gets to talking about how "twisted" it is I can hear him snarling. I wonder if he still has 2 or 3 women on the side he screws, and if they think they're doing some great service to God when they bend over? What a sad sorry bag of gas. I pray for him but I wouldn't walk across the street to hear his personal regurgitations of PFAL. Steer clear! PEACE homies!
  9. No offense, but we're not taking about the same thing. I don't have the energy to sort it out. I'm sure your life will continue to go well, so no worries, mine will too. Thanks for the time.
  10. Hmmmm, that's a yes and no for me. I get that, sort of, in a way. It would be true in the process of learning, but not in knowing. There are things I want to be right about and entertaining alternatives won't serve my need. Once I know something and what I know is right as best I can see, that's good enough for me. In religion it gets kicked around because there's an assumption that no one knows "for sure" and even since we have so many people that believe differently but swear they know for sure it all goes to prove that no one knows for sure, so there's a perceived value to staying open minded, and willing to change - "after all", etc. Even within one's own beliefs there can be a means by which their source material can correct them when they get off target. But the process of learning has an end goal which is to know something. I might say I'll never know it all or will always be learning and willing to consider alternatives, but I would never do that without serious consideration, as far as the basic things "I know". I find in my experience, those who feel that way, even if they differ, allow for that rigidity - BECAUSE they themselves know what they know and learn to honor that state of being in others, as much as they allow it for themselves. There's only conflict when it comes to societal concerns, where it crosses over into others lives. Otherwise, outside of the impetus to help others if I can, why would I care what someone else "believes" if it has no affect on me or if the affect is in any way a good one, for me....? I don't want to correct others "on principle", just for the fun of it. Put it this way - My God tells me to help others in active, individual ways and part of that is to tell them about Jesus Christ. I want others to share what I have and have the future I believe I have, because I believe it's a good one that allows them to find their own space and shape their own lives with the Creator, like I have, and maybe even in ways they can in turn share with me, to my own benefit...so hey! it's a win win. Or not, if someone doesn't I have to accept that. In America today we have trouble living that way, I know it can be a challenge for me at times and others too it seems, but I do think the earliest conception of our governance was trying to avoid a social system that won't allow you to rise up or out of your "place", but to create a new opportunity to carve out a space for individual freedoms. Course that didn't apply to slaves but - yeah, it was a start. I am thankful to God for the lives of those upon whom this great vision of a country was built yet who were not allowed to participate in it's promise, who died in a foreign land and under a different sky than they'd been born to - I can't imagine what despair must have filled their hearts in the acceptance they lived in that allowed them to survive another day - for what? Talk about having hope. Here I am today, I can only be the me I am and do what I can. And there are some things I am very rigid about, and that I don't believe I'm wrong about and that I won't change my mind about, barring a big smack on the head I can't miss. If I stand before a God someday who tells me I was wrong, what will I have to say other than hey, I thought that's what You meant, I'm glad to change my mind if I can still get on the boat going out. If that somehow condemns me for eternity, so be it. I can't help but think there will be a level of satisfaction just knowing - finally, for sure - the truth. In the meantime, I'm pretty tenacious about my beliefs. If not sooner, see you there!
  11. Some of them were pretty good at hiding it too and lying about it. Not Kris, specifically but there are others who today want to holler back to the hooting' an' tootin' they did then and act as if they didn't get anything in return - I'm not one to name names of people that could be harmed by it and I don't act where I don't have or want permission to - but - the fact is there were both men and women who were as opportunistic as VPW - and if you got caught in their web of bull sh it they were good at hanging you out to dry behind their curtain of deceit. But some of those that came and went and some who stayed got exactly what they wanted out of it. I came into the Way Corps and working there with a past I was trying to put behind me and grow out of. People often mistook that for innocence. I won't pretend I was some kind of a bad bad man in my day but I'd been around the block already more than once. I had met people like Del D before any of us were ever exposed to PFAL, and I was happy to give a start over to anyone who wanted it - and after a few years post PFAL I wanted to put certain things behind me - I was far from being perfect but I just wanted to build on certain things and it didn't include extra marital sex and the use of drugs, like pot and heavy drinking. Which made me a "square" to some people, and not to be trusted. Fukk them. In their graves or wherever they're swilling their bs today - just fukk that and them, twice over. Manipulators who lied and hid what they were doing. No wonder VPW liked them, he knew kindred souls when he saw them. You can use people to your own advantage that are that stupid.
  12. Where do "euphemisms" come into this, not clear on what you mean by that. If it was when I wrote "I hear news of what they're doing and as kindly as I can put it - it sounds about right. I just don't expect much from them, and can't see why I would."... I meant what I said. I think the factual truth is communicated completely in that phrase of "it sounds about right". It does, to me. There are a vast number of people who over the years have come through the Way and who deserve a civil engagement if possible. That's the way I live. I do talk to people about those years and events - (like most of the stuff you don't think the "young bucks" of an earlier era knew, I knew because VPW talked about many of those things, he talked quite a bit about those things when he came out to California the first couple times. I was close to Jim Doop who I spoke with a lot about what he was doing with the Way) - and when I do I inform my discussions today with that kind of information and insight. Others may disagree. Fine. I speak first for what I know first hand and try to be careful about what I sift through of everything else. Now, while I do care about the people, I don't have a dog in the game there, no relatives or associates still involved in the Way in any capacity and if anyone there thinks badly of me, fine, I don't care about that - it just proves their lack of intelligence, far as I'm concerned. Anyone still there or involved with them counters and negates the weight and value of their opinion by that very involvement so it's kind of a wash - why would I get too concerned about the opinion of people I don't think highly of? Doesn't make sense. I know some people who are, they're happy and I respect their decision in certain cases because I think for them it provides a level of support they benefit from. And they know that while my resources are limited, they're only a call away from help if they needed it - something I don't extend to everyone or lightly when I do because I mean it. Anyway, luceat lux tua!
  13. No idea, far as answers. It's been pete and repeat there since Day One, with some occasional bright lights surfacing. A lot of what the Way did with VPW's direction was to adopt and re label and re design existing programs and systems. He'd been exposed to the liberal Protestant meta physical teachings and efforts by Glen Clark, Mosley, Daily and others, the "Ashrams", all of that. He talked a lot about that in the 60's and early 70's that I heard from him. He didn't really connect the "Jesus People" movement on the West Coast to that, in a practical way though, he never spoke of the doctrinal or theological underpinnings, at least that I heard. Despite wanting to be a Big Thinker he lacked a methodology to synthesize ideas, he was a tad clumsy in that regard and more inclined to assemble, copy and rename. So where there were Glenn Clark and his "Camp Farthest Out" and retreats, VPW called his getaways "Advances" which I think was a name already getting used, I forget who else might have been using it - "renewal" was a favored term too, nothing wrong with any of them I guess but my point is that VPW tended to do pretty much what others had or were doing and he just renamed them and made them out to be his own ideas. The sense of ownership that comes with things we come up with and work to accomplish that may not be actually "new" aside, it seemed he knew exactly what he was doing in that regard. So - what the Way is doing by building loosely on their own past and using that is probably a combination of a sense of pursuing a thread of godliness in their past and doing what they know how to do. Even at my kindest I'd have to say the Way was never led by the brightest bulbs. Anyone with education, talent and motivation was expected to put on the nametag and move the program he wanted to put in place. Anyone with education, talent and motivation either didn't stay or was booted out at some point, leaving the Most Average of the Average to mind the store. Others had the mindset of survival so they kept on for the 3 hots and the cot. I hear news of what they're doing and as kindly as I can put it - it sounds about right. I just don't expect much from them, and can't see why I would.
  14. Speaking of which - 9 years ago Pericarditis got me into Emergency, where I then had a "cardiac event" on the table where they were testing me. At the time I just knew I had an increasing feeling like a knife was being churned in my chest and it was during them trying to diagnose the pain when the heart attack occurred and they discovered I had 3 badly clogged arteries including one that was pretty much shut down to a trickle I guess. Par for the course - a triple bypass was planned. Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle, Peri-c is inflammation of the outer lining of the heart. Both have been seen in children, more young males that others, after the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccines. Symptoms can occur a few days after the vaccination and with treatment recovery is full and within a few days. Add "mileage may vary" to that, I'm sure. This is of course a huge issue but it doesn't appear to be widespread at all. Now - I'm not a young male but even at my age and history, there's a concern - fortunately I didn't get any actual heart muscle damage when I had my infection and "event", and my heart even at 62 held up very well. The advice to me for Moderna's 2 dose and boosters has been I'm still in a very low risk group so the vaccine is worth it. Close monitoring of health after is important though, and I've done fine and nothing like heart-chest pain symptoms occurred. (and once you've been through it you know the difference between it and "heartburn". I wouldn't advise a child to NOT get the vaccinations due to that risk specifically. Both my grandchildren have tested positive after exposures and had no demonstrable symptoms. They haven't been vaccinated yet, but likely will be at some point, if all these mandates continue. (for the record I'm "pro choice", and have exercised my choice to be vaccinated and get the booster - but I'm not in a user group that is as active in public circles as a lot of the population but I can understand the concerns there on all sides, I think) On average as previously stated, I suggest humans currently residing on the planet Earth consider vaccinations. A bigger issue in all this comes to mind too - overall health care and access to it. I have immediate access to a health care system, doctors, nurses, medical advice, pharmacies, etc. I may not "get in" immediately or faster than anyone else but I have coverage that I can use and it covers what I need. I also have had access to a low impacted supply chain so scheduling vac's and getting in has been easy compared to some places. Millions aren't and don't though - the so called "free" vaccinations aren't really, and there's little "free" wrap around health care to monitor and take care of adverse side affects or issues in case someone DOES have an issue and doesn't have any health plan....We like to describe ourselves as the wealthiest, most industrious and creative nation in history. There is a basic level of health care that we can extend to citizens here and I'd be willing to extend that in emergency services to those who are here illegally, and being processed through our system of citizenship whether going in or out. Simply put, the severely ill and injured are going to end up in our emergency room/clinic system anyway - some provision of preventive and general health care and education would seem to be in everyone's interests. (I know there are a lot of exceptions, open holes to abuse and costs to doing any of that, I just don't want to lead with exceptions, I'd rather plan for a majority)
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