socks

On 12/3/2021 at 2:50 PM, johnj said:

It seems TWI is trying to revive the “gory glory years.” It plans to revive “the Rock” as “Young Adult Rock” Aug 12-14, 2022. They call it a “Christian music festival” for Foundational class grads ages 18-35. A few days after it, TWI plans to send out  Way “Ambassadors.” The “Ambassadors of The Way Outreach Program” will replace both the original WOW and the Way Disciples outreach program, which sends an anemic 4 teams (approx.) per term/ year. They will serve Aug 21 to June 4, 2023.  That’s a 9.5 month term vs. the 6 month disciple and 12 month WOW terms. They hope to have Ambassadors in 12 countries in which there are active Way Corps. How many people will they actually get? What do they mean by "Christian music"?

 

 

No idea, far as answers. It's been pete and repeat there since Day One, with some occasional bright lights surfacing. 

A lot of what the Way did with VPW's direction was to adopt and re label and re design existing programs and systems. He'd been exposed to the liberal Protestant meta physical teachings and efforts by Glen Clark, Mosley, Daily and others, the "Ashrams", all of that. He talked a lot about that in the 60's and early 70's that I heard from him. He didn't really connect the "Jesus People" movement on the West Coast to that, in a practical way though, he never spoke of the doctrinal or theological underpinnings, at least that I heard. Despite wanting to be a Big Thinker he lacked a methodology to synthesize ideas, he was a tad clumsy in that regard and more inclined to assemble, copy and rename. 

So where there were Glenn Clark and his "Camp Farthest Out" and retreats, VPW called his getaways "Advances" which I think was a name already getting used, I forget who else might have been using it - "renewal" was a favored term too, nothing wrong with any of them I guess but my point  is that VPW tended to do pretty much what others had or were doing and he just renamed them and made them out to be his own ideas. 

The sense of ownership that comes with things we come up with and work to accomplish that may not be actually "new" aside, it seemed he knew exactly what he was doing in that regard. 

So - what the Way is doing by building loosely on their own past and using that is probably a combination of a sense of pursuing a thread of godliness in their past and doing what they know how to do. Even at my kindest I'd have to say the Way was never led by the brightest bulbs. Anyone with education, talent and motivation was expected to put on the nametag and move the program he wanted to put in place. Anyone with education, talent and motivation either didn't stay or was booted out at some point, leaving the Most Average of the Average to mind the store. Others had the mindset of survival so they kept on for the 3 hots and the cot. 

I hear news of what they're doing and as kindly as I can put it - it sounds about right. I just don't expect much from them, and can't see why I would. 

1 hour ago, Allan said:

"Myocarditis has become the 'new Boogey man" - THAT COMMENT is terribly immature, misinformed and downright heartless !!!!!Speaking of myocarditis...that is EXACTLY the reason Germany has STOPPED giving Moderna to under 30 year olds...but that is o.k. isn't it because we're still discovering mid to long term effects...aren't we?...what was it you said ? "the vaccines have been put under rigorous testing and have been proven safe ? Tell that to the kids who now have myocarditis and pericarditis that would have grown up otherwise healthy IF they had not had the covid jab !
OMG, hope Rockys grandkids that he gleefully congratulated didn't get the Moderna !!


Germany recommends only Biontech/Pfizer vaccine for under-30s | Reuters

Speaking of which - 9 years ago Pericarditis got me into Emergency, where I then had a "cardiac event" on the table where they were testing me. At the time I just knew I had an increasing feeling like a knife was being churned in my chest and it was during them trying to diagnose the pain when the heart attack occurred and they discovered I had 3 badly clogged arteries including one that was pretty much shut down to a trickle I guess. Par for the course - a triple bypass was planned.

Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle, Peri-c is inflammation of the outer lining of the heart. Both have been seen in children, more young males that others, after the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna vaccines. Symptoms can occur a few days after the vaccination and with treatment recovery is full and within a few days. Add "mileage may vary" to that, I'm sure. 

This is of course a huge issue but it doesn't appear to be widespread at all. Now - I'm not a young male but even at my age and history, there's a concern - fortunately I didn't get any actual heart muscle damage when I had my infection and "event", and my heart even at 62 held up very well. The advice to me for Moderna's 2 dose and boosters has been I'm still in a very low risk group so the vaccine is worth it. Close monitoring of health after is important though, and I've done fine and nothing like heart-chest pain symptoms occurred. (and once you've been through it you know the difference between it and "heartburn". 

I wouldn't advise a child to NOT get the vaccinations due to that risk specifically. Both my grandchildren have tested positive after exposures and had no demonstrable symptoms. They haven't been vaccinated yet, but likely will be at some point, if all these mandates continue. (for the record I'm "pro choice", and have exercised my choice to be vaccinated and get the booster - but I'm not in a user group that is as active in public circles as a lot of the population but I can understand the concerns there on all sides, I think) On average as previously stated, I suggest humans currently residing on the planet Earth consider vaccinations. 

A bigger issue in all this comes to mind too - overall health care and access to it. I have immediate access to a health care system, doctors, nurses, medical advice, pharmacies, etc. I may not "get in" immediately or faster than anyone else but I have coverage that I can use and it covers what I need. I also have had access to a low impacted supply chain so scheduling vac's and getting in has been easy compared to some places.

Millions aren't and don't though - the so called "free" vaccinations aren't really, and there's little "free" wrap around health care to monitor and take care of adverse side affects or issues in case someone DOES have an issue and doesn't have any health plan....We like to describe ourselves as the wealthiest, most industrious and creative nation in history. There is a basic level of health care that we can extend to citizens here and I'd be willing to extend that in emergency services to those who are here illegally, and being processed through our system of citizenship whether going in or out. 

Simply put, the severely ill and injured are going to end up in our emergency room/clinic system anyway - some provision of preventive and general health care and education would seem to be in everyone's interests. (I know there are a lot of exceptions, open holes to abuse and costs to doing any of that, I just don't want to lead with exceptions, I'd rather plan for a majority) 

5 hours ago, Twinky said:

Looks great, Socks.  

My one attempt at sourdough didn't work too well.  I was given the starter dough by an Irish lass who used it lots, so I don't doubt the starter, just my ability with it.

Might try again some day but I like making bread with my breadmaker and also have access to a source of lots of free bread (all delicious).  So not making my own much at the moment.

Sounds good. I go in spurts. It's fun to play with, I may end up doing mostly muffins and biscuits and not so much loaves, with the occasional pancake or waffle mix. 

7 minutes ago, Allan said:

I agree, no-one should be telling you to NOT get  vaxxed...just wish people would reciprocate and NOT tell others they SHOULD get vaxxed !! I think that's pretty reasonable doncha thunk ??...and don't hit me with that "it's your moral duty so you don't give it to others" FFS if they've been vaccinated they're PROTECTED right ??!! And vaccinated still shed virus too don't they.....and let's not split hairs over how many micromils of virus vaccinated vs non-vaccinated shed :)

 

I dont care what you do, on a certain level. On another I care a lot. Either way I’d prefer to make my own decisions. If I get to, so do you. So when I’m King Dog of the Universe and running things we’ll get along great. 
 

Ive managed  to live as I see fit without having any issues. The week California closed down last year I drove an RV for 10 hours on a major freeway, got gas, food, used rest rooms, and visited family for a week in another city in another county. No problems at all. I slipped the stupid little mask on when I was in public places gassing up, and sanitized as I went. Easy. 99% of the trip I didn’t wear a mask but in those few situations where I knew someone would have a shit fit if I didn’t I did. The whole thing is such a minor concern to me, either way, I refuse to get in a twist, I just try to do the sensible thing snd get on with what I’m really trying to do. 
 

It came out light, airy, thin crust. Still working on the rise but this tastes really good. 

My wif' and I both have gotten the Moderna Vax, both doses. No real side effects, kind of a hit of floozy feelings for a few hours after the second one, but that was it. We both got the Booster for it, same thing, no biggie. 

I get flu shots every year for years now, I've always been pretty susceptible to colds and flu and those vaccinations helped a lot since I started. I had a serious round of Pneumonia in the 90's, I got within 48 hours of making hand puppets with Jim Hanson, I waited so long to drag my ass into Emergency. I've been careful since. 

All of those things aren't the same kinds of things but in my lifestyle they're related and connected, so I treat them seriously as part of the same health concerns. For years I've used a disinfectant when I go in and out of public shopping stores, the big box ones, "Wal Mart", all those. I'm careful about sneezing into a kleenex and avoiding people when they're snorting and sneezing all over the place in public, using doors, handles, knobs, picking thing up in public places, etc. It's all gross, seeing how many people treat personal hygiene. So I was in this whole clean thing long before this virus stuff started and frankly I don't mind the world being a little cleaner out there. 

People that want to tell me I don' need to do that, don't get vaxed, I shouldn't do that, am wrong for doing that, can - how does it go in the original greek...? they can get fukked. Seriously, if I had a buck for every self proclaimed expert telling me what to do I'd have a barrel of bucks. I have no lack of expert sure fire opinion either way I want to go. 

I've read up on what's going on as much as I feel the need to, I see the different sides to the issues, blah blah blah. I prefer to treat all of this as an individual's choice. That's how I treat it. I don't have all the answers and I don't expect others to either. I'm not going to hate someone because they don't want to get a vaccine or because they get one or because they're not sure. If I can help with my own incredibly insightful expert opinion I'd suggest - see a doctor, make sure of any exceptional conditions you might have that would make a difference and then go with the best you know and sure, get vaccinated. But if you don't, that's fine too, in my world.

I know that's not how the government is handling it across the country and it sucks and is difficult for everyone whether we're for this or against that or whatever. But I try to take the high road as much as possible and do what I can to help others with what they need and this is the best I know to do now. 

PEACE! 

Just pulled this out of the oven tonight. I started with my usual proofing period but at about 7 hours it had risen some but not a lot. So I did a second knead, about 6 -7 folds and reshaped it and then let it proof in the baking pan for about 4 1/2 hours - and it really rose that second time. EVOO across the top, sprinkled some salt, and put it in a preheated oven at 350 degrees, 30 minutes. At 20 minutes I checked it and it had risen up into a nice round top.  I sprinkled some cheese across the top. It came out feeling really light and airy, it's cooling, so we'll see when I cut it. 

On 9/17/2020 at 4:32 PM, Stayed Too Long said:

My bread hasn’t been rising and browning in the over as it should. Thinking the temperature in the oven may not be accurate, I purchased a thermometer. With the oven temp set to 400 degrees, it read 350. This seemed quite a bit so I bought another thermometer and it read 370 degrees. 

I don’t know which reading to trust, but am pretty sure the oven temp control needs to be set higher. Fun time learning to get things just right.

So here we are a year or so later....

I stopped for the summer, this year, too hot. And I'm finding sourdough does a lot better for me in the winter. I just got a new batch of starter going, the old was in the back of the fridge and probably would have worked eventually ("c'mon! it's a strong starter, it wants to bake!...3 -2 - 1...CLEAR!!! again! charging.....!!!") but I just started over.

2 tblspoons white flour,  squirt of water, stir, wait, repeat, build it up, etc. More flour, water, stir and poke, wait. Etc. I end up moving it from a small starter jar to a bigger glass jar and adding a 1/2 cup of flour at a time so as it rises it ends up 2, 3, 4 cups of starter, at least. 

What I've learned - the starter I've worked with at times is too thin and the chemical process, gas, will bubble but the bubbles just rise to the top and escape. That kind of starter mix doesn't proof and rise at a big enough rate to make a big porous tasty loaf of bread (but it will come out denser, which may be what someone wants). For more classic sourdough I found it needs to be thicker than I usually thought it should be. 

When the early starter is thicker the bubbling occurs inside the starter dough but "stays inside", pushing the starter dough up and out. Lots of bubbles show at the top surface too - that's the starter "rising" and being active. Starter in that early fermenting stage should be increasing in actual size in the jar container, even doubling in size. Mines looks like a big porous sponge when it's peaking. 

At that point I take a 1/4 - 1/2 cup of starter, add a little water and thin it out for making the dough ball and mix with my flour and make my loaf. I add a teaspoon of salt at most and whatever I want to go in if I do - like some garlic or dried herbs, etc. Mostly I don't put a lot in it though. I do a not-so-much-knead kneading  and I only do it once, for about 3 - 4 minutes to get it mixed into the classic 'ball' and fold it over and into an oval loaf shape. I then let it rise for 8 hours or so directly in the baking loaf pan, pre greased, that it will bake in, once, I  haven't been taking it out and refolding and doing a second rise. I go for about a 1 - 1.5 lb loaf, not that big, and muffins I make in standard cupcake trays, 6 to a tray.

They bake at 350 edges for 25 - 35 minutes. I start checking at 25 minutes. I do the score cut at the top and might brush some oil or butter on top, sprinkle salt, etc. Nothing fancy. 

What makes it fly when it does, is getting that initial starter into a mixture where I can stir it with my fork (I took an old table fork and cut out the two center tines, so I have a two pronged fork thingie, works great) and it sort of pulls a little as I stir - not soupy or like pancake mix, and not so thick it balls up, but mid way, almost like fudge. 

My starter's been blowing up and really active, so I'm getting decent loaves. No pix, but so far so good. I call it my "No Stress-EZ Sourdough Bread" recipe. 

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

 

 

Answering in reverse order:
I was not up all night; yesterday I was working on updating my GSC about me profile off and on from about 2:30pm to about 12:45am CST – it just so happened while I was online I got a notification you quoted me on this thread; I decided to make a few replies to you after which I went to bed about 1:32am; I was not sleep-posting !   

Also I take issue with your statement “We're clearly talking past each other.” 
From the internet – “talk past each other” – “an idiom meaning: A situation where two or more people talk about different subjects while believing they are talking about the same thing.”

Maybe that’s how you think it’s going. I have been following what points you’re trying to make – which necessitated me asking you very specific questions to give you a chance to clarify what you’re talking about…why don’t you review all our posts so far and see how many times I kept asking if YOU were speaking metaphorically …figuratively about there being no one behind the mask. I never got a straight answer from you. Don’t bother giving me homework and expect me to click on links or Google more about it – I’m having a discussion with YOU – not some teacher that I have to check back with periodically to make sure I’m correctly following this week’s assignment.

And besides that, what doesn’t really help is the fact that if and when you respond to a question – it’s usually a brief cryptic one liner and/or you just post another link or toss out some reference to what Vanknin said.

May I make a suggestion – quote him or anyone else all you want – but in doing so, would you also please put more of your own thoughts, opinions, analysis, critiques, extrapolations, etc. in the post. Then, it won’t be like some fifth-grade book report that merely quotes and mentions highlights of a book.

Not that it’s perfect – but here is an example of putting my own thoughts out there after I read a book 
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24893-love-wins-a-book-about-heaven-hell-and-the-fate-of-every-person-who-ever-lived/?do=findComment&comment=607480

back to the last idea I’d like to revisit – you wondered if I was suggesting that VPW could change, and in a broader sense you seem to being saying that a malignant narcissist is no longer a person…thus incapable of changing or finding their authentic self since it evidently has “died” or gone away…so if you could – in your own words – elaborate on what I just mentioned from YOUR OWN VIEWPOINT – without sending me off on a great Googling adventure…by elaborate I mean you can respond by clarifying – refuting what I said – or correcting the way I phrased something – or filling in the gaps of my understanding – whatever – you are free to gab away – let’s pretend we’re having a conversation in person and don’t have any devices so we can’t look up something on the Internet – we’ll have to just go with what’s already in our heads.
 

You reminded me of something in relation to this whole topic, maybe, I think - (and I liked that Love Winner-Chicken Dinner book too)....hold on, story time - 

I was once interviewed by HR at a company I worked for regarding a complaint two employees had made against another employee, who was the manager of both of them and up a link in the food chain, mine also. I knew and had worked with all involved and in fact had been in teams managed by both. I did have some specific insight into the complaint and a first hand opinion of it's validity. So they asked me a series of questions in a phone interview about it all and I was very honest in my feedback and the understanding I had, which supported the view of those making the complaint.

The last question I was asked was - did I think the person getting the complaint "could change"......I answered in 2 parts - 1. I can't speak to that, I think that's outside my ability to judge even from a professional standpoint ... and 2. Realistically, "But".....based on my experience with that specific person - no, they likely will not, not without some intervention and guidance...why expect different results if the person has no reason to change, might not see any advantage to changing, and unless a path to change is laid out and agreed to...?

So there's some responsibility in judgment - if I were to say someone HAD to change, if there a path forward? Is there a penalty component to it? Etc. Etc. 

When I think of real people and real incidents and things done and the effect it all has on everyone, past events are the easiest - and the hardest - to work through - and EVERYthing is past. EVERYone can have a different perspective and viewpoint of the same event in the past and everyone does, even when it's "the same". It's the nature of reality, as the individual living it understands it to be.

But - we can come to an agreement on it. Like the example of Charles Manson - I could get my Armchair PsychoAnalyst Certificate renewed every  year doing a paper on why HE was a nut case. 

But that's easy and made all the easier because the entire case history of Manson is - over. He's dead. I'm sifting through the grains of facts in a reality that are like the pixels in a multi million color scan, they can be completely laid out and searched both for what and where they are but also for what they mean in an ongoing PRESENT REALITY. 

Anyway, on a practical level I can say with 100 per cent  confidence and without the slightest doubt, and with all the gravitas it deserves - V P Weirwille isn't going to change. He's dead. Wha that meant, means and the effects in an ongoing experience with those of us hmmm, affected by him and what he did, well that will continue as long as there's people who care, wind blows and grass grows. 

Me, I change all the time, and take my word for it - always for the better. Smarter, faster, better, older, wiser. You can take my word for it. : ) 

 I can't speak to his legacy, but my thoughts and prayers are with his family and those close to him. I have read that he died with family close by and in their loving regard. May that be true for all of us. 

https://youtu.be/85_7lEwyu5U

14 hours ago, WordWolf said:

I did a little checking in some of the old threads.   Without checking everything, it appears that the way corps incorporated DC early on, in different versions.  Forst, DC's famous book was required reading.  Then some techniques from there were taught to be used for "witnessing."  Then a grad of DC's course was in twi, and he began teaching a twi "version"  of the material (again, with neither credit nor licensing fees nor notice given to the organization that owned all the rights.)   HCW made a passing comment about having actual DC trainers show up on grounds, but I've found technical problems with some of his accounts before, so perhaps he was misinformed about twi actually paying for a DC trainer to show up and train.  On the other hand, it is POSSIBLE they did.   It is inconsistent with twi policy, however.  (Plagiarize what you can, use without paying anything you can.)    Having seen they were already using DC material and getting away with doing it for free, I have a hard time picturing vpw deciding to do the morally-responsible- and EXPENSIVE- thing and giving both due credit AND MONEY to DC.   IF it happened, there would have to be one HECK of a story behind it- something elaborate with wc people setting it all up in secret, or something. 

I'm not sure what that's all about, so perhaps is someone else's memory of something else. There may have been something that went on before the Corps course offerings, perhaps that was even what brought Maize into the picture, although his history with PFAL wasn't a secret to at that time. 

The Dale Carnegie courses I received taught by Bill Maize were when he was a licensed/certified to instruct Carnegie courses in a territory in Ohio where he could offer the Carnegie courses as a Carnegie instructor. None of the materials or the class in toto were relabeled Wayfer versions under different names and presenters, and we got copies of the Carnegie books and materials. (my wife recently crossed professional paths with an educational/trade organization that offers some current work by the Carnegie group and I found a copy of a small Carnegie Booklet we still have from 1973, that she had signed her name inside of, and it gave them quite a chuckle to hear that)

I understood Bill's courses on Public Speaking and Sales Techniques were based fully on his material which was based of course on the original books and material of Carnegie. It began with the First Corps and were offered in each Corps thereafter, to the 4th I was in. I believe it was offered then to at least the 5th and "Family Corps" at the Way Nash, under Bill's teaching but I wasn't in the "residence" program at that time, I was on staff in the first iteration of the "interim" year. It may have then been offered after in whatever forms, but I wasn't there attending any of them so can't say what they did first hand. 

Whatever financial arrangements the Way had with Bill Maize I don't know, his expenses were likely covered and he probably received a fee or honorarium of some sort per student, but he may have also done it gratis or at a reduced fee. Guys like John Somerville who began TFI (The Total Fitness Institute) in the 70's arranged with VPW to have Way Corps come in for outdoor climbing, survival and "leadership" training classes and he received a fee for each Corps person in the early groups that went to help with expenses (he told us when the 4th Corps had the option to go) and he also got at least a day or so of work/labor out of each person to help doing odd chores and tasks for building his camp and cabin, although it was a pretty disorganized affair at times that I was there over two weeks. I mention that to say that over the years VPW cut arrangements with lots of people to barter/trade, that I know and there's probably many others too I'm not, of course. But with Bill Maize it was a straightforward class he taught on prem, one night a week over several weeks, with exercises and assignments we were required to complete successfully. I remember this even more specifically because one of my wife's speeches/presentations was selected to be included in a Sunday Night Service, it was about 5 minutes I believe and was one of two that were picked that week that exemplified the stuff we were learning. She even remembers that to this day. 

Wuddelse - so, Maize's courses with us weren't secret or anything remotely clandestine. The finances weren't an additional fee for the Corps as we paid tuition/sponsorship to be in the live/work program as it was outlined that year, and whatever Bill and VPW had arranged was between them. 

1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

For a number of years, I'm aware that twi's way corps taught their students the entire contents of the Dale Carnegie Sales Training course without paying any licensing fees to the company- nor any other fee, for that matter.  Does anyone know if they still cheat Dale Carnegie to this day?

Never heard of that, where'd you become aware of that? It may have been after they opened Emporia, and/or after Bill Maize taught the classes at the Way Nash. His son was also a certified Carnegie instructor and I believe Bill Sr's territory continued through to his son. There wasn't any such conflict with the material that Bill Maize taught. I've worked with other licensed/certified instructors of licensed course work who customized courses for companies and developed offerings for them.

It's kind of an anachronism now but lest I forget Corps training (by and around the 4th Corps) included a sales course and a public speaking course, both taught by Bill Maize. Bill was a certified Dale Carnegie instructor, a PFAL grad and taught the Carnegie material with a specific eye on what we were doing which included teaching, witnessing and of course, signing people up for PFAL. 

Over time I think Bill's teaching and overall approach were excellent and have held up. I've continued my education in general business and some specific technical fields, completed 100's of hours of CE - continuing education - to increase and refresh my skills and knowledge, facilitated 100's more in my career work and specialized at times in training others in topics like Workflows & Analysis and UXP testing (user experience) related to client-side application development. Plus I've got 1000's of hours of public speaking under my belt teaching on the Bible, Christianity, "sermonizing" and otherwise pontificating on any number of related topics  and as a musician taught music and performed all my life (less so these last 30 years or so). For my time and money, Bill Maize taught material that I've used over and over throughout the years and been able to build on. At one time I did fairly well in sales related fields and jobs and the Carnegie concepts served me as did many of the specific methods when they were reapplied and tailored to other settings. For me the combination of Sales and Public Speaking gave me something I think others might have ignored - an approach to communicating with others that helped me learn about others and understand them. The "sales" part for me was defined immediately by the statement we learned - "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still".....so I took the idea of "selling something" through manipulation off the table....I could see that even the most needy person would only go along with something they didn't really want for so long and by continuing expose themselves to possible damage....anything close to full valid acceptance requires more than just accommodating a weakness or need with promises....

And for many the promise of a group of people who suddenly liked you or at the least put up with you, wanted you to hang with them and who were interested in you and what you did and what you needed was pretty heady stuff. And that alone can be a healing balm, to be accepted for who you are - and in Christian thinking for who God wants you to be, but without the the emotional and physical debt of guilt, judgment and condemnation. Free - "free at last!" to be ourselves in God's creation. 

The Carnegie material is still represented and offered in varying formats by many training and trade groups and the content is refreshed of course. For me years ago, was it really necessary? No, not really. Any caring person willing to take the time to meet others and get to know them with the intent to help them with their friendship and what they know will do most of the important stuff - invest their time, listen, be patient, try to understand, etc. etc. BUT it did something very important for me personally, gave me time and methods to help me learn to communicate and express myself better with others, and start that lifelong journey of doing so. 

Where all this went south IMO was taking any of it and pushing it into some pre-fab format of quotas and measurements to "get people in the Class".....even if it's vacuums there's always going to be a report of "how many did you sell" but from the human side the report will really say "how many people were helped with the products"?.....

Even writing this it sickens me to remember sitting with some of the fk-tard "leaders" sitting on someone else's couch in their home drinking their coffee and yelling at them for not "getting enough signups to start a CLASS!!!!"

Sad. 

But it's all blue skies and berry pies today! PTL! Free!!! Free at last!!!!

10 hours ago, Junior Corps Surviver said:

I always felt like it was high pressure sales with quotas. Even in the 70's. Our hearts might have been in the right place but we would be in "trouble", especially as a WOW (twice) if we weren't constantly running classes. Hence the homeless, addicts and others who were there for the food and kisses. But that was my experience. 

Yes, there was plenty of that. 

For me it boiled down to this - Just as salvation was personal for me it will be personal for others. It can't be mass produced, we're all a crowd of "one's

Jesus is "the way", described as the door, the gate, the means by which...

Like a door, everyone can't go through at once, all the pushing and shoving in the world will only create a bottleneck. Everyone goes through singly and then everyone can get through. And in that way there's plenty of access, even as we do find ourselves in the arc of a timeline. Time is of the essence but it doesn't control the rules or God's intentions and plan. 

It's personal, individual - me and Jesus Christ, us and God. 

In the Way of the late 60's, 70's witnessing was a mixed bag of helping people, making friends, sharing and teaching what the Bible says and specifically sharing "salvation through Christ". The primary tool of choice for teaching the Bible was PFAL and The Way 'Nash was the "church" that wasn't a church but a teaching ministry providing the structural pinnings for fellowship, worship, and social life - but hold that thought....

PFAL was not intended to be a tool to "just" do that - it was intended to be a tool to teach "the accuracy of God's Word", specifically the array of Dr. Weirwille's critical need-to-know topics  that were being "rightly divided" in PFAL. Many if not all of the fundamental creeds of Christian faith were redefined by this teaching - similar in face and look to some degree but fundamentally very different, to the degree that VPW didn't even want to call those who took PFAL "Christians", he socialized the term "Believers" into the Way's vernacular. His "students" BELIEVED, they lambano'd that stuff. (but it's smart to remember -  the first "believers" to be called Christians were a Gentile congregation in Antioch, evangelized and taught by Paul and his team and according to VPW were probably taught much the same things and ways as he himself was doing..... VPW liked to say it was because they were always talking about the "Christ in them" and did a kind of word-mash to get the term Christian buuuut...yeah. Anyway, he balked at the term to distance himself from the great unwashed masses of non grads of PFAL and did so at great harm to any effort to actually help others, IMO.)

So "witnessing" was essentially signing people up for PFAL classes. And I would argue it's not the worse time I ever spent in a metal chair, speaking for myself. PFAL establishes several things upfront - that the Bible needs to be viewed as a revelation from God, a product of inspired writing and expression. For the person who wants to know God and His intentions for mankind it is not just a book of myths and stories with a few parables thrown in. That with some rudimentary tools and guidelines (historical context, cultural context, language interpretation, chronology amongst others) the meaning of most of it can be understood, and much of that from reading it on face value. PFAL taught me that Jesus Christ once said He came to give life, "abundant" life, that life is beset by thieves who steal, kill and destroy - Christ came to give us Life, real life, and real Love.  I learned about the spiritual gifts and "manifestations" and most importantly that God works and wills in us today no differently than He did when Christ was alive and His followers lived. I learned about prayer and the value of a strong Christian social life with real relationships. I learned about Grace, and Mercy, through what Christ did. I learned how loving and kind Jesus Christ was to nearly everyone He dealt with and that even those who wanted to kill him answered to a greater God, just as He did. 

Now - PFAL taught a lot of stuff and after a few times and some study, I pretty much "got it". It's not a hard set of materials to master. The subjects, the contents, could and will take a lifetime to learn and apply and grow in - and I'd contend that the purpose of what we're taught in the Bible New Testament isn't to make us lifelong students who must be incessantly reminded of what we've learned lest we forget - and sure we all need to be refreshed and reminded of things - but the intention is for us to live the LIFE that God gives us through Christ and insodoing - live. Learn, grow and enjoy. The best way to stay on track in our new life is to mmmm......live in it. I don't look at it and want to be more like it - I'm "it". I just need to remember to be the Me God has made me. 

Now then to the question of witnessing - for me it was

1. share the knowledge of who Christ is and what He means

2. share specifics of how God wants us to live and what that life means and looks like

3. Guide people to the Bible which is where they'll learn more about all this

4. Sign 'em up! for PFAL!

As time went on I do think the goal of ONLY signing people up became part of the problem - yet even then all the years I was involved in the Way including the early years, the Corps and working there on Staff after, I was always compelled to HELP PEOPLE through my direct contact. 

Still and all, when I travelled with the Way the number one measure of success was the 'signed green card' - and unlike many of the more loud mouthed swaggering "leaders" in the Way who never left the comfort of a well organized meeting lectern or living room where they could pontificate and bloviate all night - I did sign up people for PFAL. LOTS of people and by traveling throughout the entire country, every major city and every place the Way had people large and small, over several years, I put my money where my mouth was and didn't just tell people what THEY should be doing and blaming them when they failed for not "BELIEVING BIG ENOUGH". 

My prayer is that in that effort they got enough of the love and learned what to do with it. It's been a long haul.  

4 hours ago, Twinky said:

Hey Socks!  Long time no see!  Welcome back.

Yes, exactly.  I wonder if a digital subscription like this is going to become "required purchasing."  I am fairly certain that most (all?) people who post here would not be welcome to subscribe.

Feel free to visit most normal religious organisations, for free services and teachings.

Thanks!

I found this news to be so clearly indicative of the root problem of the Way's pay-for-pray teaching ministry. 

There's always money involved. 

"Cheap and cheesy" perfectly describes the Way. 

anyway...PEACE KIDS! 

It's just looks like an add on for existing "subscribers" - they ask for your "customer number" when you "subscribe". If you're an existing customer/member of The Way you already have one. 

Non customer/members have to contact the "Bookstore" by phone or mail to buy individually. 

When you read it closely what they're selling is access. The stuff you get is whatever that access gives you, in this case it's a "digital" product. 

They're using the same ol' convoluted control mechanisms wrapped in new money - $2 a pop. 

On 10/6/2020 at 8:32 AM, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Socks, I remember JN; they were wonderful!!  Their music was so inspiring, and Godly.  I heard them several times, and always thought their music was amazing.  I have wonderful memories of them.  Many of the head honchos in TWI, were guilty of any number of wrongdoings, but JN was the "real deal."

Thank you! I'm proud of the work we put in. The time, and remember - "it was on your dime", as I like to say. As it grew and continued it was financed by the ABS of the Way's members. It honored the music that so many great souls were a part of it. 

The product itself was a work in progress. I used to wince that people were or felt forced to listen to music they didn't like sometimes, namely ours. I've studied, played and enjoyed music all my life and although I've listened to a lot I don't prefer I would never in my life insist anyone be immersed in music they flat out didn't like. I tried to encourage people to build their own "libraries" of inspirational music, make cassette tapes of stuff that made them feel good, happy, inspired, thoughtful, whatever. Not a terribly profound idea but one that would work well as time went on and technology did too. Today, playlists. 

On the whole I'm proud of what we did though, the intent was to bless, to inspire, to give an additional source for someone to see and learn what the Word of God taught. It was far from perfect, but it was a hearty effort by everyone involved and as time went on others did things with dance and various arts. Unfortunately some of those who came onboard with Craig had no investment in the legacy of the work and no heart for the love of it and managed to dismantle it. 

Did you ever get this answered?  The copyright.gov site covers it pretty well. I dealt with this a lot over the years for employers and online content and their lawyers always promoted permission, citation and full crediting for any use of material that was used, when it was being quoted verbatim and specifically if it was in the format of the creator on even the most benign and innocuous material and circumstance. But it also depends a little on 1. your moral and ethical values and 2. how deep those ethical pockets are. In a worst case scenario the worst that can happen to most of us is a cease-and-desist order, which any licensed attorney - well, anyone really, can issue. But who wants that? So your question is valid. 

Two scenarios I dealt with were typical - if it was clearly for commercial use permission was required and cited in a set of footnotes at the end of the content, document, paper, etc. 

If it was use of a set of words and phrases that came from a piece of reference material like a dictionary or industry standard reference source - it was assumed that non licensed use was legal unless otherwise stated in the source material itself. It was still always cited and credited as source material in the footnotes. 

So if someone wrote .... "the definition of the term 'duty of care' may apply here, which in common legal definition is 'a requirement that a person act toward others and the public with the watchfulness, attention, caution and prudence that a reasonable person in the circumstances would use.' "....and it would be cited in the footnotes for the source of the quote. 

This can be expressed in  language many ways, I could say the same thing but write "as it states in the online source dictionary.com.law" blah blah blah.......which covers the citation (and would still get included as a reference source in footnotes listing) but it would assume that non licensed use is permitted......

And your question was generally around "but is it?"

You're on the right track. I knew the answers to that for most of the situations I encountered and understood the application of them, so I could actually do a first review of the content if it hadn't "been through legal" yet, and then forward to them for review and in nearly every case they hit that nail again and again with the answer "Let's make sure we have permission and include the statement in the footnotes". 

I'd consider contacting some reliable sources or an actual attorney to go over your questions. If it were me, and I was using publicly available reference material for the purpose of research, teaching and academic advancement I'd cite and note a nice clear thank you to the sources in my foreword and/or in the footnotes. If I were collecting a charge or donation for the material I'd written for the usual "covers cost and handling", I'd handle it that way too, thus declaring openly my intentions. 

Run it by an attorney for fast relief and get their answer in writing. 

Just the facts, please:
https://www.copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html

Some attorney talk about the facts:
https://www.janefriedman.com/the-fair-use-doctrine/

On 9/4/2020 at 2:44 AM, Twinky said:

You are entirely right that God works in small settings.  Early commandments and instructions to the fledgling people of Israel include this:

Deut 7:7 7The LORD did not set His affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than the other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples

and if you read the early chapters of Deuteronomy (it's well worth the re-read), it's all about staying pure and close to the heart of God, rejecting falsehoods, and taking care of those who can't look after themselves.  This tiny nation was to be an example to the rest of the world and to draw people by that example into knowing God, the God of love and not the god of hate, or of human sacrifice, or of nature or animal worship (or whatever else, you name it).

We are all part of at least one community; we can impact that community.  We don't have to make a big name for ourselves, but people will notice that "there's something different" about us.  Many will have read Betsie ten Boom's works; whilst in a Nazi prison camp, she led people into Christian love and worship and even, at one point, thanked God for the fleas that infested their hut - because it kept the guards from harassing them (the guards were terrified of the fleas and the typhus they spread).  That attitude of gratitude, and of service, makes for stand-out behaviour that can demonstrate God's love to others.

It was the kindness and gentleness of my church, and its outward face to serve the local community, that drew me to it.  It's helped and healed me from my TWI wounds.  It helps and heals so many from debt, addiction, poverty - just by being there and offering help and solace.  Right now, there's a lot of emphasis on giving out food parcels to needy people injured by CoVid restrictions on work or ability to go out.  In school time, there's homework clubs - a quiet place where schoolkids can study, not in noisy households or on the end of the bed in a room shared with another child.  We have action days when we organise skips to take away bulky refuse within the area around my church - a poorer community, with more than its share of single parent families and cheap social housing.  we have social events that are free: Needles and Natter; a lunch club (donations welcome) that anyone can attend; Mums & Toddlers, where (often single) mums can go for a coffee and cake after dropping older kids off at school.  We do lots to help. 

And we sing and offer services, easy "classes" and the like, where people can come and learn more about God, Jesus, and living in love.  We have a big impact, for a little congregation!

 

That's a cool verse in Deut Twinky, thanks!

Your church sounds like it's got the "right stuff".  

On 9/3/2020 at 6:50 PM, Rocky said:

Thank you very much, Socks, for sharing your insight. Indeed, I see the human nature of Christian pastors/teachers wanting to reach the entire world. And that's how I view it, as human nature. But your point about the intimate nature of Jesus' work is wonderful. 

Hopefully many more Christians will have their eyes opened up to that insight.

Peace n love back at you. Selah. 

Thanks! I'm glad you brought this book into the forefront. 

It can probably be summed up in one of the review quotes, the one you started out with that said "develop a thoroughly biblical imagination that takes in the comprehensive and eternal work of Christ in all people and all circumstances in love and for salvation. Rob Bell goes a long way in helping us acquire just such an imagination."

A lot of theology takes an exclusionary view of salvation - working from a platform that keeps the sinner out. Yet if we're sinners we're already "out" and we aren't even born knowing it. We don't need to be kept out or denied anymore than we already are. We need "deliverance", we need to be brought in. 

Yet the N T asks me "Do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?"

Then there's the ol' "That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

Bell really (to me anyway) sets up the the point that this life, our lives now aren't simply one of justice withheld. I think something I held for a long time in my former Catholic training was the idea that this life is some kind of a test or puzzle and if I pass I get to proceed. That's over simplifying Catholic theology but a lot of it does tend towards an attitude of "this too shall pass" where the human condition is indeed temporary but WHOA! you better get it right or - well, they'll be hell to pay later. 

Jesus Christ was the epitome of an "ocean in a drop of rain". If He is and was everything I read about and I accept that, then this very moment, this day, year, is of vast eternal significance because the Creator has focused His creative expression ("Love") onto us and into us and this life we're in right now. It's a window to the future yes but in and of itself it's an incredible thing we are living here, now. 

So - I finished re reading the book, Mr Rocky and figure to close the loop on this discussion.
 

I can't think of anything Bell says logically or scripturally that makes me want to adopt his position, to be honest. Saying that, I think the emotion, the charis, of his message is closer to the truth than the hell and damnation stuff. As I understand and teach salvation, "hell" isn't really a topic. Jesus did talk about it but not in a way that I think me spreading His message now, needs to deeply consider. In the big context, it's another topic. 

Jesus Christ revealed God to mankind, gave the pneuma of God a visage, form, in which His intents could be seen, known, considered and even understood. 

Jesus Christ functioned in a very small corner of the world and the lessons and teachings of His life are better understood in a small community, familial context where a group (He and His disciples) exist within a larger familial style group (Jews) that function in an extended community spread over an area (land, geography, distribution of population) and that all are rooted in the same customs and culture while having their own twists and turns on them as the community border grows and spreads over time...and all of which exists in another different and separate social governmental community that exercises a degree of control over them (Rome and Roman rule and occupation).

In that context when Jesus said that seeing Him was like seeing the Father - He made an incredibly powerful point that was impossible to miss by those who were with Him.  Jesus forgave, offered mercy and forgiveness, grace. He healed and restored people to health. He wouldn't have done so if it were not what God willed. And He did that in a very small intimate context. 

Although we live in a time of global awareness I am not of the mind that the Christian message is best understood that way. The "body of Christ" is a very large community of course but it won't be fully congregated until the future and then into it's much larger context. We need to be aware of the larger church community of which we are a part and to which we can have an impact, but our direct part in it is immediate. I think some of today's conflicts in the church come from the desire of members to see themselves on too large a level, where pastors try to teach the entire world, apostles try to speak for the destiny of the entire church, teachers want to reach vast congregations of listeners. The real work of the church that most closely resembles what Christ DID ON EARTH is local, personal, intimate and real. His greater purpose was of course, infinitely vast. Selah, as they say. 

That's about it for me, just tying up loose ends. Peace n love! 

On 5/1/2020 at 8:12 AM, Stayed Too Long said:

Nice Four grain loaf. 
1. Whole Wheat 2. Dark Rye, 3. Spelt, 4. White.

This recipe, from http://Breadtopia.com/ is a three day process. 
Day 1: Mix whole wheat flour and starter for 12 hours.

Day 2: Blend in the Dark Rye, Spelt, and White flour from Day 1. Let rise in refrigerator for 24 hours.

Day 3: Knead and let rise 4 - 6 hours. Bake 475 degrees for 45 minutes.

Some recipes call for mixing all the flour and water, and let set 30 - 60 minutes, to allow all the flour to completely absorb the water.. This process  is called autolyse. https://bakerpedia.com/processes/autolyse/

 

 

 

 

 

Beautiful! 

14 hours ago, T-Bone said:

that reminds me, Twinky ....in light of recent events on this thread folks should realize that once you’ve made your bed, you must lie in it. That’s an old saying that means one must accept the unpleasant results of something they have posted on Grease Spot. It's all about dealing with outcomes and consequences.   

 

How does that include posts being deleted? 
because you

had a poster who said “fuck off” or whatever it was? 
 

and then all related posts are gone.  

It’s just weird to me.  That’s posturing at Posturepedic best. 
 

“As you were” simply meant - return to your normal activity. I guess this is it, hey? Good job! 
 

Really???

damn you can’t say anything around here anymore.  
 

how weird. It’s like say ing it cant happen because it wasn’t appropriate and offended someone, so it didn’t. 
 

Tight ship? 
 

GS is an odd bunch these days I’ll give you that, but that’s the wrong way to go imo. 
 

put another way - reality’s a bitch but it’s one we know. 
 

as you were, all. As you were.