Hope R.

Think about it... if they had just let Doug go pay his respects quietly and prayerfully - this never would have happened. That's all he wanted to do.

Agree with him or not, he really wasn't trying to start up a big brou-ha-ha, he just wanted to go do what many other people do when someone they loved and cared about passes away.

Personally, visiting a grave-site isn't my "thing". I'd rather remember the person's life and accomplishments than hang around the hole in the ground they're buried in. But that's me - not Doug.

This feud may have been initiated by Doug McM's visits - but it was escalated by TWI. They should have left well enough alone. We wouldn't have even heard about it then.

At first - Advanced Class grads of the PFAL A/C who wanted to take the WAP Advanced Class were allowed to have certain kinds of debt and still attend. They were -

Mortgage

Child Support (yes - it was considered a debt!)

Hospital Bills

Student Loans

IRS debt

Later, when all the grad-only classes were over, you had to have NO debt whatsoever in order to qualify, whether you were an old PFAL A/C grad or not.

Poor me, I couldn't take it when it was a grad-only class... so I had to wait for the "new student" classes and ... oops! I couldn't take it because we have a mortgage. Too bad, what a shame, I'm so sad :D--> :P--> ;)-->

Another point is that many, many churches have been able to meet the spiritual needs of people much more than TWI ever dreamed of. Not just the spiritual needs, but the social needs as well.

When I got involved in TWI the churches weren't "doing their jobs". I remember hearing (according to VP) that the church buildings were empty 6 days a week - only used for Sunday services. That is not true of today's churches - at least around here.

The church we sometimes go to has a youth group, a mens bible study, a womens bible study, singles meetings, classes on basic Christianity, marriage, family, commitment, and much more. There's always something going on there - the parking lot always seems to be at least half full.

And as far as "outreach" goes: they build "Habitat for Humanity" houses and go to homeless shelters to feed the needy. They donate their time and efforts to several missions.

They don't HAVE to witness to get people to attend - it's just a natural extention of their good works and charity. Spiritually, the sermons are timely, thought-provoking and well done. Sure, there are doctrinal differences from what we were taught in TWI - but it's going to be that way with any other church or religious organization. TWI's doctrines were and are unique to them - and as far as I'm concerned - they can keep it all to themselves.

Oh - and another thing that changed in the past decade or so is that we were instructed to not witness to anyone unless they had their physical stuff together - no losers in TWI anymore - no weaknesses! See, they were trying to "weed out" the weakness in those who were already involved - so of course, no one who was weak to begin with was really welcome.

Most "non-loser" types who are well into their 40's have already become a part of a church or synagogue. They've raised their kids in them and contributed a lot of time and money to the denomination. Most are happy with their religious affiliations and aren't going to change for something that will offer them less than what they've already experienced.

So - when the equation is: good churches + good works + good pastors, people & programs - charity + no weakness allowed = no new people in TWI!

I know what my answer would be... "No thanks, no church with you..."

What's really amazing in hindsight is all the mental illness that TWI wrote off as "possession" because they lacked the ability or willingness to help someone in need.

Is your kid too hyper? Then they must be possessed?

Are you feeling really down, so bad that it hurts? Well, it's a devil spirit - dontcha know!

Anything that caused a problem was taken care of by spirit possession or (in later years), spirit influence.

Don't want to obey the MOG and pay your house off? You're being influenced by the debbil!

Don't want to mark and avoid your brother, sister, mother, father who "walked away" from the household? Then you're allowing their devil spirits to have entrance into your life.

And on and on it goes. Reminds me of Flip Wilson (as Geraldine)... remember?... "The Devil made me do it!"

Ahhh Sushi - guess you're one of those "sensitive new age guys"...

I was very enthusiastic about witnessing in the early 70's. I was inviting my friends to something I loved and thought made my life so much better. I also witnessed to strangers with the excitement of someone who believes they have found all the answers to life's questions. No one had to teach me how, or tell me I had to go witnessing. I just did it.

Fast forward to my WOW year... Door-to-door was introduced and I refused to go. REFUSED! Told my WOW coordinator I thought it was an awful idea and didn't want to knock on people's doors because I didn't want them knocking on mine! I got kicked off the WOW field. I only went door-to-door twice - once in residence (we had to) and once in our area during some silly outreach teaching. I never knocked on the door or spoke to anyone. I was there for support. I spoke in tongues while the other person did the witnessing :P--> .

After the Corps, I only talked to people I worked with. After VP died and LCM took over, I stopped witnessing all together. I couldn't bring anyone to TWI without lying about it - and wouldn't lie about it - so I just quit telling anyone about it. After a while, it became an embarrassment to me, so I didn't even tell people I became friends with about TWI unless they asked what church I went to.

I don't know anyone who was excited about bringing "new" people (gawd, I hate that term) to fellowships in the 90's - especially after the WAP class was made the foundational class.

When we went witnessing in our fellowship - it was usually to a bookstore. I went with the BC a few times, and he never witnessed to ANYONE. His wife did, very "boldly" (obnoxiously, IMO).

Witnessing was mandatory - not out of love or enthusiasm for what we'd been taught - but out of the need to enforce some kind or rule or law.

Again - and please, you TWI 2 folks please tell me if I'm wrong - I know of no one who genuinely wanted to bring anyone to TWI2 or the WAP class.

Wayfer...

SFU Website - episode guide can fill you in.

Lisa is dead. Remember, they ID'd the body using her dental records. Nate buried her and used old ashes to give to her family.

I'm glad Nate & Brenda are back together.

What's with Claire? Sheesh - she's really become more of a stoner than ever. And Billy? (sigh - be still my heart). Is she going to get together with him???

David and Keith are either going to get married or break up. I was sorry to see Keith's "security to the stars" plot line discontinued.

According to the previews of next week's show - David is going to get sued - for a half a million dollars! Eek!

Only 2 episodes left? There weren't that many, were there? What's going to take it's place? Anyone know?

Owe no man anything - so you can give it to me.

reikaldy -

Wasn't she marvelous!?! I would pay a LOT more to see her again! Wish she'd come down here more often. The only reason she was here in the first place was to help celebrate the 25 year anniversary of a small NPR station. Tampa usually isn't a part of her regular circuit.

I just shelled out $87.50 per ticket to see James Taylor and The Dixie Chicks in October. It's a part of the "Vote for Change" tour. I'm looking forward to it.

Cowgirl - We saw The Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" tour when it passed through here a few years ago. They were amazing.

I'd love to see Bruce Hornsby. He came to town on tour with Bonnie Raitt. I missed it because it was Halloween night and my kids were still small. I wanted to write to them and tell them not to do that again!!!!

MStar - Wow - David Bromberg - haven't heard that name in years. There's a whole folk circuit out there that I know very little about. The only reason I know anything at all is because of my fondness for Christine Lavin's music. She promotes many other folk artists on her site. When Napster was up and running, I used to sample a lot of them. Can't find too much of their stuff in regular stores.

We have a friend who gets special seating at one of the larger venues here in Tampa. Along with the seating is a lovely buffet and bar (beer and wine are free). The seats could be better but I never have to worry about not getting tickets for something. The most I have paid for a concert was $185 per ticket for Simon & Garfunkel last year, which included all the nicities. It was worth every penny.

We saw the Dixie Chicks and Springsteen the same way. The tickets weren't as costly, but they were both above $100.

I'm going to try to get tickets for the James Taylor/Dixie Chicks "Concert for Change" in October - but I think they'll be hard to come by.

Oh - the best concert I saw last year cost me $15 per ticket. It was Christine Lavin in the auditorium of an old school building here in town - put on by the university's NPR station. I would have paid more - she was marvelous.

UH - I think they still have a billboard up on Hwy. 29 - not too far from TWI's entrance. If they don't have one now, I know they had one up for years. Maybe that's what they meant when they said they spent "substantial amounts of money". Over the years, it must have cost a few bucks - though I'd guess it wasn't all that "substantial".

Hey Roomie!!!

I know I got a diploma somewhere from The Way College of Biblical Research, Indiana Campus - even though I only spent 4 months there.

If my memory is correct, they couldn't get Emporia accredited, so they gave us all degrees from Indiana.

When I went back to school, I didn't even bother, and I was still in TWI at the time. I figured it would only count as a couple of humanities credits and wasn't worth the trouble.

I thought someone who posted here managed to get something out of TWI's archives regarding their "degree". Don't recall who it was, though.

xoxoxox

(hope all is well with you...)

Geez - I could have sworn I saw him taking a swim...

And let's not forget about the "love offerings" that were collected when the Grand Poobah's came to town. They were "over and above" your ABS and specifically given to the guest from HQ's (or the region).

We weren't told how much to give, but it was suggested that we give $2 - $3 per person. Our area was quite large back then - probably between 400 and 500 people. And it was all in cash. I recall our Area Coor. going to the bank to trade in the $1 bills for $100's.

Belle - I don't know about the Bruno Magli shoes, but I know he had at least one Armani suit.

Oaks! Time flies when you're free, doesn't it? I'm glad you weren't bullied into staying off the internet.

Congrats!

Okay, Mr. Moonlight - I'm taking the bait. Email me and tell me who you are. :)--> I'd like to recall those days as well.

John - I knew Gerald was full of sheet at the time - and knew there was no way I could have done better than you! xoxox

To everyone else - it amazes me how much I've learned (and unlearned) in four years, and how much further I need to go before I'm really free of the mental bonds that held me in TWI for so long. Thank you so much for all your kind words.

My3Cents insight is right on the money.

Here is what I have heard from a very, very reliable source just a few years ago.

VP apparently had a list of 4 or 5 names who he was considering as candidates to take his place. He showed the list to a trusted few (very few from what I was told). After a year went by, the list was whittled down to LCM & Walter. He showed these two names to these people again, and the majority of them pointed to Walter's name. VP picked LCM in spite of their opinions.

Tommy... don't tell anyone but... I used a very cool Thesaurus! (Plumb Design Visual Thesaurus)

****Brilliant!**** - FOUR STARS!!!

"Sudo's 'Twelve Commandments of Flaming' had me rolling on the floor laughing my foot off!" - HR GreaseSpot Cafe Times

May I add to #12?

12a. Make sure that your insults sound as if they might be compliments. Use "bless your (her/his) heart", using a Southern accent, whenever possible.

Bless his heart! He can't help it if his butt is bigger than his head!"

12b. Make your insults questions - as if people are going to agree with you.

"He's just a big, dumb, know-it-all, isn't he?"

12c. And make sure you disguise your insults by using words that most people have to look up in order to realize that they've been insulted.

"Wow! Your belief system is gormless! I trust I'm not being presumptuous when I suggest that you get your vacuous ideas from various benighted sources. I am in awe as to how you can be so illiberal and disingenuous in your exposition.”

quote:

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It doesn't make sense to me, could you elaborate further.

Saying CES is a TWI clone is not enough to prove it's an evil outfit. Because lots of folks still believe that TWI had godly things about it. If the clones copy or imitate the godly things, and abandon the ungodly things, how can you call it evil? I don't see where they are going wrong. In fact, I think they may be an improvement.

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First - I never said it was evil. CES exists because of TWI. Think about it. So does CFF, Geer's thing, Dale Sides ministry and so many others who are all "borrowing" from what they learned in TWI. These guys didn't come up with this stuff themselves. Whether they've taken what VP taught and torn it apart, or whether they agree with everything that was taught and just didn't like Craig - they all flow from the same body of water. They may have taken different directions - but the source is the same. Again - they're not necessarily evil - or maybe they are - I'm not involved with any of them so I don't know.

As far as new people go - I have been in touch with people who are involved in three of the major TWI spin-offs. I have asked them if there are any new people - NBW people - who come to their fellowships. ALL of them told me "a few, but most of them are all ex-Way". Some of these people have been involved in their spin-off groups for "years and years" (CES started in the late 80's, CFF in the mid-90's).

I've gotten email from people who are moving to Tampa wanting to know who we fellowship with. My reply is usually to send them to the CFF group made up of 100% ex-Way people. From what I hear - that's pretty much the way this particular fellowship gets any "new" people.

Hope that explains it better.

quote:

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posted by satori001:

Second, I'm not getting on CES's case or condemning them because they "think they are right." I am pointing out the "viral" nature of CES's origins, and evidence that CES shares much of TWI's "DNA.

---

Amen. And, IMO, even if a spin-off disagrees with what TWI taught, the fact they they're using TWI's doctrine to show what they disagree with makes them as much of a TWI clone as the Wierwille worshipping spin-offs are. (does that make sense?)

And really - when you look at all of them, not just CES - aren't the people who are involved mostly ex-Way folks? Just like the leaders who didn't know how to do anything else - the ex-followers didn't think they had an option of going to anything else that didn't resemble TWI.

You're right Shazzy - they didn't know how to do anything else. And not just JAL.

I remember when the fhit hit the fan back in the late 80's. There were guys from the single digit Corps' who had: gone to college, got witnessed to, took the class, went to summer school and then went right into the Corps. Some never even finished college. The most they'd ever had were summer jobs (if any). They didn't know how to do anything except run a branch/limb or they'd headed up a dept. at HQ's. They only knew how to be bosses. They never had to earn respect - it was automatically ordained to them with their "reverend" title.

One particular guy I knew hadn't worked a real job in 13 years. He was in his 40's and quit his TWI job after the PoP crap. When he went to find work - he was competing with all these new graduatuates with MBA degrees who were 20 years younger than he was and who would take less money because they didn't have a wife and 3 kids to support. It was rough.

Remember - the guys who were the early leaders lived quite well. I know a particular Limb Leader who lived in a 6,000 square foot home in a very upscale part of his community. TWI paid the rent, utilities and gave them their furniture and autos. Now, what kind of salary would you have to make in the corporate world to get that kind of deal?

There were a lot of leaders like that -- who had counted the horn of plenty money at a large meeting, who knew what amount was on all the blue forms from their branch or limb. They knew if they were dynamic enough and had gotten a sub-cult following of their own in their area - that they could start their own little ministry and live off the abs formerly given to the Way. It was an easy ride. I'm suprised more of them didn't do it.

Actually, it was 4 years ago last week that we got the boot from TWI - July 22, 2000. I’d been waiting for about 5 years for the occasion and can’t tell you how relieved I was when it finally happened.

We were kicked out because of a series of correspondence between my husband (igotout) and the current TWI president. If you read the "Letters to Rosalie" keep in mind that we still have not received an answer from Ms. Rivenbark about John’s willingness to help the ministry get “back on track” (whether it ever was on track is really not the issue)! Funny, a few of the suggestions from the first letter have been implemented by TWI - yet he was never shown any appreciation for them or thanked for his attempts to make things better.

When I re-read these letters after 4 years of being away from TWI, I am more grateful than ever that I am no longer a part of it.

In the four years that have gone by - I’ve had to work hard to get rid of so many years of “Way-brain”. I began by stopping to think about my feelings on a subject instead of just reacting by running some TWI one-liner through my head. I began to express myself in ways other than spewing out rhyming bible verses that numbed my creativity. I saw that the world was much more diverse and complex than I had been taught it was. I began to see more shades of gray in my decision making and realized that looking at every situation in black and white was not always an option. There were more choices of thought - more ways of doing things - the world became a much larger place once I stepped outside the mental walls of TWI.

I am grateful for Waydale and Grease Spot for being there when I was still in and had to remain anonymous. I’m thrilled I was able to find old ex-Way friends and make so many new ones because of these sites. The one thing about TWI that I still appreciate is the people I’ve met and grown to know over the years, whom I would never have met had I not been in “the ministry”.

To those of you who are still in - especially you “old-timers”… Think about how small your world is - how narrow your mind has become. Think about what you’ve missed by staying in TWI’s womb. Have you grown spiritually in the past 10 years? Mentally? Have you become more or less tolerant of others? Do you have any empathy for those who are hurt or suffering - or do you feel they’re in their positions because they’re “unbelievers”? Do you care about anyone outside “the household”? Do you disassociate yourself with people because they have left TWI?

Are you angry about the way your life has turned out because you stayed in for so long? Do you feel good about yourself? Did you miss opportunities for a career? Investments? Home-ownership? Stability? Retirement income? Relationships?

What do you really have to lose by leaving TWI? Friends? If they “mark and avoid” you - then they’re not your friends and never were. Family? If they value those in TWI’s ranks more than their own flesh and blood - what kind of family is that? If they do end up disowning you because you leave - you probably have family members who you shunned in the past willing to welcome you back with open arms.

I was in TWI from the time I was 16 years old until I was 45. You do the math. My whole adult life was spent in The Way. Ya know what? I don’t miss it! I have a life - a zo? - life and all of its manifestations. I have friends - real friends who have never even heard of TWI who would give me the shirt off their backs if I needed it - no matter what I believe in! I’m closer with my “earthly” family members than I ever was - heck - I talk to my mom almost every day!

It’s not too late to change - no matter how old you are. It may be hard to overcome the indoctrination and the low self-esteem drilled into you by various teachings and leaders - but it’s worth the fight. It’s amazing what you can see once the scales fall off your eyes.