Hope R.

Funny, "The Thirteenth Tribe" didn't offend me like "The Myth of the Six Million" did.

I'm also descended from Ashkenazi Jews. My grandparents were from Germany, Romania, Poland,and Russia. My mom's folks spoke Yiddish (I only know the cuss words!).

I always thought that Koestler's theory was possible - that the Jews of The Pale were converted Khazars. But then again - there's the possiblity that they might be the real thing. Remember, the twelve tribes were "scattered abroad". Who knows where they ended up? And if they were Khazarian converts - so what? There are Ethopian Jews and Sephardic Jews who may or may not be direct descendants of Jacob any more than the Ashkenazi Jews are.

And, IMO, what makes someone Jewish isn't blood - it's in how one worships God. If Jews are a "race" of people, then why did they so easily assimilate into the cultures of the countries they lived in? Why do we say "African American" and "Italian American" but not "Jewish American"? Because it's a RELIGION - we don't say "Catholic American" either.

Anyway - there's another book titled "Jews, God and History" by Max I. Dimont that I highly recommend if you're interested in Jewish History.(check it out on Amazon.com - read an excerpt)

I think that Koestler's book fed into VP's Anti-Semitism - but I also don't think he gave it too much thought. I wonder if he even read it or just had someone give him the "Reader's Digest" version. He probably thought it was written by the same type of people who wrote "The Myth..." I didn't get that from Koestler's book at all.

I have to agree with Grasshopper - the Corpse from the 90's were the worst Goose-stepping folks I've ever seen.

I'm not saying there weren't hard-@ss people in the earlier years - but I think there were more good, kind, caring individuals than there were control-freaks (as many have stated here).

The "Nazis" stood out to those of us who weren't that way. We knew who they were - we talked about them. ("Gawd - I'm so glad I didn't get sent to Florida, I couldn't stand being under (fill in the blank)'s leadership!")

In the 90's, as the Corps grew smaller, the people who signed up were more likely to be Kool-Aid drinkers - not people who thought they were going into the Corps to help others and "move the Word" like many of us did in the earlier years. They were people who aspired to be "dog soldiers for the truth", "committed disciples in the household", "prevailing ministers", etc. Not much was mentioned about love and giving and healing.

I had a few bad experiences with some of these "Corps Nazis".

One took place at the Advanced Class in 1995. I hadn't been to Rome City in 20 years and was feeling quite nostalgic about the "good old days" when I was there for the class. I told some stories to a few of the women in my room about the time when "Craig" did this, that or the other thing.

Later that week, a Corps woman approached me. She said that one of my roomates was in her A/C fellowship and was upset that I had referred to Rev-er-end-Mar-tin-dale as "Craig", that it was disrespectful and WHO did I think I was, etc.

Needless to say, I was disgusted. She didn't know me from Adam. I'd never seen her before either. So I got b!tchy. I told her that when I was in residence that everyone called Rev-er-end-Mar-tin-dale "Craig" and he never had a problem with it. She then told me that it was an "old wineskin" and wondered where I was coming from.

Since I was stuck in R/C without transportation and had to last another few days, I turned on my Stepford charm and told her I was sorry that it offended my roommate and that I'd be more careful around her from that point on.

I was also reproved by another Corps Hitler Youth when I made a comment about being sick of the "Singing Ladies" music at every session and meal. I knew that was a mistake the minute I heard myself say it!

I was still in in 1998 when a friend who had been out of TWI for quite some time told me about the Trancechat forums. I had wanted to leave for a few years - and finding Trancechat was my "cold waters to a thirsty soul".

The first night I found it, I stayed up all night reading the archives. A lot of it was pretty rough stuff. Some people would get down-right nasty with each other. Because there was little moderation and no screen names or password protection, I could sign on as anyone I wanted - even another poster! There were a lot of problems, but it was all that was around, and it served its purpose at the time.

I started posting as "A_Friend". Then Karl K. asked me if I was a "girl" friend or a "boy" friend - so I called myself "Amie Friend", and stayed that way until the night I left TWI.

When Trancechat closed - I was almost frantic. It was my only link to ex-Way people and an incredible outlet for my "innie" frustrations. But it was only a week or two and Waydale was up and running. There was a guest book at first - and the Documents section. The forum came a bit later.

I loved the original Waydale chat room. The night we got kicked out of TWI, I went into the room and chatted under my real name - letting everyone know I was finally out!

Grease Spot, of course, was practically an extension of Waydale - Paw didn't miss a beat so there was no down-time between the sites.

I think all three sites have proven to be a haven for those of us who didn't have anyone to "talk" to who could understand our TWI involvement and the effects it had on our lives. The fact that GS is still up and running strong and that so many people lurk and post here says volumes about the need for it to continue to exist.

Sky -

I think what you're thinking of is the after POP staff.

After the first great exodus of the late 80's, there weren't many staffers at HQ's who were Way Corps. So they lowered their standards! They would take anyone who was an A/C grad for a while.

The folks who left our area to have the "privilege" of living on the farm had to make at least a 2 year commitment. I guess if they worked out, they'd be asked to stay longer.

But for quite a few years there was not 100% Corps on staff - there weren't enough Corps to fill the positions left by the "cop-outs" --> !

I think TWI had more than two sides to it. Heck, Way Productions was in its own little world - and I don't think they fit into either of your original catagories.

Think about all the "worker bees" - those who weren't doing the business/organizational/professional side of TWI. Housekeeping, Way Builders, Grounds Crew to name a few. They all had to be Corps Grads, too when TWI got bigger. But after POP, I think they were lucky to get anyone they felt was worthy enough to clean the toilets in the BRC!

Def - yeah - that sorta took me by surprise, too. But ya know - they always have a surprise ending on "Law & Order".

I never heard anything about her character being a lesbian either. Frankly, I don't think that comment was necessary.

Jumped the Shark? That happened when Lenny Briscoe left and Jerry Orbach died.

I think Florida may have a few more than 150 left.

Four years ago, before we left in 2000, there was a statewide "Defeating the Adversary" class on Memorial Day weekend.. There were about 350 active A/C grads there. That was less than 2 months after the first law suit was brought to light in the TWI fellowships. I recall being very careful of who we talked to about the stuff we knew at the time (thanks to Waydale).

I know that when we left in July, several people had already bailed out. There were also many more who did the same in the following months.

If there were 350 A/C grads - there were probably about 500 total followers in the state. I'm assuming that in the last 4 years, at least half of them left. I know the Tampa Bay Area went from having well over 100 participants to about 50 to 60 shortly after we got booted. If that followed suit, then there are probably about 250 left in the entire state.

I'm sure that the folks who got out after we did would be able to make a more accurate guess.

I tend to agree with Geek about LCM not being able to start his own thing because of the internet.

I think the internet has prevented many people from joining up with TWI and probably some of the other splinter groups as well.

Go ahead and google LCM's name - or TWI - or JAL. Sure you'll find their own web sites and perhaps one or two more postive sites about them. But when you scroll down you'll also find 100 more web sites warning you off. And not all of them are done by ex-Wayfers either. A person with half a brain wouldn't bother going any further.

If LCM has indeed "come to himself", maybe he realizes he's not the man he knew himself to be.

I don't like Jim Carrey either - but Satori is correct - this movie isn't his usual mugging at the camera and strutting around the movie set. It's different, for sure - but I liked it. I recommend that you hunker down and watch it all the way through - get your beer and popcorn and go pee before you hit the play button. It's worth watching.

Radar... are you sure the gross to net change was the late 80's? I seem to recall it happening in the 90's.

As far as what we gave - we believed what the bible says about "every man as he purposes in his heart - so let him give". We gave whatever amount we felt was appropriate at the time. Sometimes it was more, sometimes less.

After the first law suit - we stopped abundantly sharing all together. Many others did the same. Funny, there wasn't too much of a fuss about it either - I guess the higher-ups knew that people were ....ed-off when they found out that their hard-earned money was used to support a sexual miscreant.

Vision and Direction: A work manual for the full time Way Corps

Emergency Cutbacks: 1998 (PDF file)

No Gift Policy

There are a lot of other Documents in the Waydale Documents section on the main GS Cafe site.

The no gift policy was totally insane. First - put your full time Corps on the most meager exsistance possible - then don't allow anyone to give them ANYTHING to help them out!

We have a lemon tree in our backyard. The thing is remarkably fertile for such a small tree. One year, it produced over 200 lemons. I was giving bags of them away! One Sunday - I bagged up bunches of them for the folks in our fellowship. Our BC (who was our HFC) could not take them - they were a GIFT - a BRIBE. I WAS GIVING THEM TO EVERYONE - NOT JUST HIM! But... I was allowed to give them to his KIDS so they could make lemonade if they wanted to.

Then, it was our BC's 20th Anniversary - a bunch of us got together and made a card. We also bought some inexpensive flowers to give them with the card. They had to CALL THE LC to see if they could accept the flowers! OMG!

At Christmas, I could get gifts for the kids - but it was suggested that I get them practical things, like pajamas or slippers - that's what they needed - no fun stuff.

There's more - but it's all so insane it's hard to believe it really happened sometimes.

Tommy Strangelove - there are some wonderful people who went full time. It blew my mind that they did. Some of them had good jobs and nice homes and had been in their areas for years - and they gave it all up for Waypay. It amazes me that some of them are still sticking with it. I will continue to keep these folks in my thoughts - and hope someday they will get out for good.

Sky - I have heard that many people who went full time were living in sub-standard housing, that they didn't have enough to give their kids the basics and ate a lot of macaroni and cheese... and that the "abundant life" didn't apply to them. Did you observe this as well?

I have to admit that I wrote a letter to LCM before the "Corps Alumni" status existed saying that I was unhappy about being grouped together with the "dropped" corps who had left TWI. After all, I was still standing, dontcha know!?! Why, how dare you put me in the same category with those cop-outs!!

Oy...

So the powers-that-were conjured up the Corps Alumni status. I didn't think for a minute that my letter had much to do with it - but I thought that was pretty considerate of them to respond that way! (LOL).

Now, as we all know, everything in TWI was conditional- there was always a catch. In order to qualify as Corps Alumni - you had to be (according to Paul G., our former BC), "the best example of an Advanced Class Grad in your area". Once you blew it a few times - missed a meeting, didn't go witnessing, fell asleep during a dial-up Sunday Teaching Service, you would very quickly lose your status!

Just another carrot on a stick, really.

For me, it's just another "if I knew then what I know now" - I'd tell them to take their Corps Alumni status and shove it up LCM's, ahem, ... dancing tights.

As John said, we lost our Corps Alumni status only a few months after getting it! The Way giveth, the Way taketh away.

Dammit... I didn't even keep the status long enough to get a name tag to add to my collection!

"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me." - Alice Roosevelt Longworth (1884-1980)

I think if it had been anyone but Geer presenting PoP, I might have listened. IMO, I thought he was a nut-job, still do. So I couldn't take anything he had written too seriously - and besides - it really didn't say much of anything, did it?

The first few years after PoP - Igotout and I looked into some of the "start-up" groups that were splitting off from TWI. We got tapes from Steve S*** in California; newsletters from JAL and others. All of them were trying to win us over to "their" side. We were still running a twig - and we'd put all the info we'd gotten from the spin-offs right on the table next to the Way Rag and Grapevines from TWI. We didn't really know what to do. All our friends were bailing - but we weren't ready to make that decision. Besides, where would we go to hear "the word"? (ugh).

At the time, TWI was still the largest and most organized group with the most material to offer, as well as events like Word in Business and the ROA. We decided to stick with TWI for those reasons, as well as a mis-guided sense of loyalty and all that Corps-Corps-Corps indoctrination.

After LCM came out of his "fog" and started going ape-sheet - we figured we'd just wait and see - thinking that it had to get better! I mentally gave it a year.

Then LCM released the Galatians tapes and I thought things were headed back in the right direction. Well, you know the rest.

In 1995, I had to go take the newest version of the Advanced Class in Rome City. I think it was probably the worst 10 days I'd had in TWI. Bunch of mindless twits cheering for a man screaming his head off on a video - others praising him - saying that they were proud that TWI "was no longer an open-door ministry".

That did it -

I got home - told hubby that when he was ready to leave - I'd be right behind him. It took 5 more years and Waydale to do it. The past 4 1/2 years have been amazing. I'm at the point now where I feel like TWI was the distant past instead of the recent past for me.

I met Mark at the first fellowship I ever attended. He was a great guy.

I have a couple of funny stories that I think of when I think of Mark...

I first got in TWI when I was 16. I didn't drive, and neither did any of the other Long Beach girls (Dougie's wife - are you there?). Mark was one of the guys who would pick us up to take us to meetings up in Rye - it took about an hour each way. He had a green and white van we called the "Gluck Truck".

One Sunday, we stopped at Nathan's on the way home to get something to eat. When we got back into the van, Mark suggested we have a believer's meeting. We didn't object, but it was a school night for most of us and getting pretty late. On top of that, some of our parents weren't too thrilled about our TWI involvement.

There must have been about 6 of us girls and Mark in the back of the van. We all prayed first. Then it was Mark's turn. He prayed for an hour and a half!!! He prayed for everything he could think of at the time! OMG - we didn't know what to do - we were all really young and new to TWI and he'd been "in the Word" for about a year!!! We dare not interrupt!

Most of our parents had called each other frantic with worry. One had even called the police! We got home safe and sound at about 1:30 a.m. I don't think our parents let us ride with him again!

My second (and favorite) Mark Gluckin story happened when I had a fellowship in my house one night. My cute, little, Jewish grandmother was visiting and Mark came in to say hello. He had a long red beard and a long red pony tail at the time. My grandmother was a bit taken aback.

She looked at him and said "My father had a beard like that, he was a rabbi!"

His reply was to smile and say, "Wow, he must have been a really cool guy!"

Guess you had to be there...

Anyway, I'm sad knowing he's not here anymore.

The last one we went to was in Dallas - but it wasn't over Thanksgiving - I think it was Easter weekend. I never could go on Thanksgiving because it's my mom's favorite holiday - and I wouldn't want to miss having it with her.

Anyway - John and I cut out and went to the Sixth Floor Museum. It was way more memorable than the WIB conference - as well as more interesting and thought-provoking.

To any of you innies who might be going, get a cab and go check it out. I've fogotten the teachings - but remember the museum.

TED -

You pretty much already know what they are. I'll email the list to you when I have a moment to breathe!

xoxoxo

Hope

Did anyone say eBay? Not just for purchases - but to SELL your stuff! It's amazing what some people will purchase. One man's trash...

I was looking for some knee socks for my daughter and came across a USED pair of gym socks with a hole in them. Someone was selling them for $4 PLUS shipping! Eek! (for real! check it out!)

Clean out your closets - and sell the stuff you don't want or need anymore. The buyer pays the shipping. All you have to spend is time.

There are always coupons on line for many major stores. If you register with the places your frequent - they'll send you an email with their special offers.

Target, Borders, Bath & Body Works have discounts and coupons almost all the time. Know when they have their annual or semi-annual sales. too.

Melitta has their HQ's in Clearwater and opens their warehouse up to the public the first weekend in November - every year. I only found out about it a couple of years ago - but I buy a years supply of coffee and filters when they have the sale.

I found out that there are many companies that open their warehouses up once or twice a year. A lot of times, you can find out through your kids' school. We have a fundraising company here in Tampa that does a warehouse sale the first week in December - they advertise it through the schools who have used them for their fundraisers - usually the faculty gets the info. All the wrapping paper, candy, stocking-stuffers, etc. are about 1/4 to 1/3 of the price the catalog lists them for.

If you use make-up from a department store counter - only buy it when they have their bonuses - usually 3 or 4 times a year.

But - don't deny yourself the things you really want that you can afford. Every now and then, go to the Godiva store and spend $3.50 on a chocolate covered strawberry! Heck, I know I've clipped enough coupons to make up for it!

Since the "great divide", most of the early Way Prod songs and tapes have been shelved by TWI. All those durn "cop-outs" wrote them, dontcha know!

The few songs I wrote that are copyrighted were for TWI as well. "I Love the Lord" is still in the #@)% song book. They can have it!

My feeling is that if they still had some of the better music around, people would wonder who the performers were, and where they were as well.

Reminds me of "The Ten Commandments" when Yul Brynner orders Moses' name to be taken off all the statues and buildings of Egypt - erasing him from memory. All that drama...

3Cents - Crohn's is a rough thing for a teenager. I have a similar condition that has subsided over the years. Drop me an email...

Being late, or really, the fear of being late makes me crazy. I say the it's the fear of being late because I never am. I've told my friends and family that if you've waited more than 10 minutes for me, and I haven't called you to tell you I'm running late, then something must have happened!

I don't know if that's a TWI thing. I remember being told that when you're late it means you don't give a crap about the people waiting for you -- it's rude.

I have a NBW friend who is perpetually late. It's become a joke with a bunch of my girlfriends. Now my late (not dead!) friend even jokes about it! We have waited to order lunch for 1/2 hour or more because she wasn't there. Meetings have started late because she was late as well.

I have to admit, I get annoyed because it's just a bad habit of hers that would probably be easy to change. Yeah - we've told her to be somewhere 1/2 hour before the actual time. She figured it out after she got there and none of our group was there yet! But in a way, it is kinda rude when 5 hungry women are waiting for lunch. We just make up for it by drinking an extra pitcher of San Gria before she arrives. That way, we're too happy to be angry at her!

But that's still the one TWI habit I still have, and maybe it's because I really don't want to break it.

The neat thing - naw. But it drives hubby nuts.

Oh - and the context of "let all things be done decently and in order..." has nothing to do with the top of your refrigerator.

Don't want to butt into this because I haven't read everything - but isn't "The Way International" different than just plain "The Way"?

I can see where "The Way International" would not be generic, but just plain "The Way" would be. And the other organization called itself "The Way International Ministries". Wasn't that what riled them up against that group in the first place?

"Truth needs no defense" - meaning if you're in TWI, you don't have to explain anything you believe to anyone - just get them in the class.

"Sincerety is no guarantee for truth" - meaning that a good, sincere person is probaby a liar, especially if they're trying to teach the bible outside of the TWI "household".

I think that VP would have been very amenable to having ex-followers come to the woods to visit their loved ones. Perhaps he thought he would be able to get them back into the TWI fold if they were welcomed. You catch a lot more flies with honey....

Hmmm - it does look like there's some kind of subliminal message in that waterfall. It probably says "drink the Kool-Aid".