fredgrant

Told i was only welcome under certain conditions and requirements that i will not attempt to specifically recollect here.   No doubt this specific type of situation has been recounted liberally across this site. Though painful and confusing and heart rending at the time, i now see it for the blessing in disguise it was. I truly loved so much about my time with twi, so many of the people, so much of the teaching. How the hell did it turn out to be so rotten inside?!! Love and compassion for people took second, third, or fourth place too often i see now. I hope things have changed, but i don't feel the need or desire to go find out.

I was surprised to receive the card today myself.....a measly 25 years or so after being marked and annoyed.  What was missing though, was the apology. Not that an apology would make me believe that the real me would be welcome there. It would be quite nostalgic to check the old place out again though.  However, nothing would be worth going back to putting on the blinders.

they no doubt picked this program up from the Roman Catholics, who have been promoting a 'come home' program for some time now.

3 minutes ago, Charity said:

Obsession with having power, pride (the need to have an adoring following) or a desire to have grads fellowship together so they could become rooted and grounded (or indoctrinated) in what he taught in pfal, could have been other reasons for wanting loyalty.  I don't know if vp gave himself the title of "the man of God for all times" (not sure if the "for all times" are the exact words), but he certainly didn't stop people from saying and believing it.

I can see how your decision on how to help people would bring you peace.  It makes me peaceful when reading about it. 

If i remember right it was "the man of God for our day, time, and hour!"

1 hour ago, oldiesman said:

The very fact that it was sound doctrine for centuries leads me to think that we in this century can be wrong and not centuries before.    Traditional Catholics pride themselves on tradition and age-old concepts so why would this concept be any different.    George Carlin said there is no God.   If he said there is no heaven, hell, limbo, etc.  should we believe him.    He is very funny and a gifted entertainer; but is it wise for a believer to take serious spiritual advice from an unbeliever?   

There are some people who believe that the Roman Catholic church has some traditions and concepts that are not rooted in scripture.  A good starting point for evaluating spiritual advice might be, "does scripture matter?"  Oh my goodness, then you have to ask, "what is scripture?"  
I haven't seen the concept of limbo in what I believe to be scripture.  For now I think of of it more as a dance you do trying to get under a stick.

15 minutes ago, So_crates said:

So you're telling me Saint Vic didn't  love God, right?

Yet, according to Mike, God entrusted him with the most important revelation since the bible itself.

its ok if you don't get Mike to say he's wrong. Really, it is. Try to let it go.

20 minutes ago, So_crates said:

So then, once again, why bother with the bible? Why not get born again and do as we damn please? Then, according to you, we'll join the ranks of those listed above and God may give us some of His big jobs, right?

Well as the Bible says, the love of God IS keeping His commandments, so the only reason to do the right thing is because you love God and it's the right thing to do.  I don't always succeed, but it is because sometimes I am still a slave to the flesh Rom. 7.  God tells us about our lives to help us to a more worthy endeavor.

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Not God as I understood Him from the Bible, either. …initially

But as I studied the Bible over the decades my understanding of God has changed some.

When I first opened up the Bible in the early 1970s I was 22 years old.  By that age I had absorbed churchy and cultural impressions as to what Bible teachers should be like. I envisioned Jesus-like characters could be the only ones God could entrust with big jobs. 

That’s how we humans must do it, I figured, when we hire out jobs to people. We want to examine a candidate’s past record, and see that they have been good, and thus predict that in the future they will probably be good for the job.

So this early innocent impression of how things worked in the Bible was a deep expectation, as I started reading the Bible. But soon this expectation was challenged some, as I read in Genesis.  I noticed right away that the story of Noah seemed to have some rather odd post-Flood scenes with Noah’s family that had to be censored out of the children’s Sunday School version… I guess. One clear thing is that Noah got drunk.   

Reading along the challenges got greater as I read about young Abraham involved in some kind of crazy wife-swapping protection scheme, but was stopped by the pagan Pharoah, who knew better. 

Later, Abraham had a child with Hagar, with Sarah’s approval?   I also seem to remember him having concubines.  The children’s Bible stories never had these parts in them, did they?

It doesn’t stop there. My whole notion of who God could entrust big jobs to was constantly challenged in Genesis. I think we can skip Abraham’s son Isaac, after reading somewhere he had no concubines. But the grandson, Jacob, was a doozy!  His name, before God changed it, meant “con artist” and he stole his brother’s birthright…  with God’s approval???  He also had at least 4 wives, and maybe a concubine.  I wonder how Sunday School teachers define “concubine” for the pre-pubescent children?

Past the book of Genesis, the stories still are challenging to me.

I marvel at God’s forgiveness of our future sins.  Why doesn’t anyone ever talk about this? Look at all those revelations and miracles He gave to young David, fully foreknowing that in mid-life crisis David would resort to murdering his best friend.

And how did God’s people receive the Psalms of David?  Were the relatives of Uriah satisfied with David’s public repenting?  Do you think that Bathsheba was David’s first “mistake,” or did he gradually work his way up to having sex with his best friend’s wife? Life experiences tell me it was the latter.

And I did not realize the extent of Solomon’s late-life corruption until recent decades.

What was the time-line of his life like? How deep into his concubines and their idols could he get, and still be able to pen God-breathed scriptures?  I don’t know. It just blows my mind that God would give young Solomon all those revelations, but know in His foreknowledge that old Solomon would get totally corrupt… or nearly totally?

Then there is that beautiful prophesy that came to Balaam, who was crookeder than a dog’s hind legs. Why did God entrust such wonderful words to him?

John the Baptist was a real weirdo, yet the greatest prophet?

Peter was pretty impetuous and had a violent temper, and pretty forgetful at times. 

Paul was a murdering de-programmer, and God entrusted a lot to him.

I guess God’s  criteria for selecting His big job workers is a lot different than the criteria we must use in selecting our Sunday School teachers.

Why is this?  Because we can only look at the past actions of a person, and we know nothing of their future actions, and we know nothing of their heart. But God does know a person’s future actions, and He does know their hearts. 

I guess God is far more interested in getting His big jobs accomplished, and less interested in conforming to our limited ways of judging candidates for a job.

Well if you look at the records in the Bible that Mike is talking about, it is obvious that he is right about one thing - God often uses imperfect men to do big jobs for Him, in fact not only often, but ALWAYS except for in the case of Jesus.  That being said, the issue is did God select VPW as a big job worker?  Because the focus of the Way International was POWER, and not the cross of Christ, his impact was quite distorted from the gospel that the New Testament canon puts forth.  It was a grand case of 'cherry picking' scriptures to assemble a cistern to imprison human beings in.

That being said, I do not believe it was VPs intention to mislead about the Word.  I think he was mostly just mislead himself and it snowballed into something bigger than himself, eventually dragging him along for the ride.....just thinking out loud.

26 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

…In conclusion, it is important to emphasize that no church council made the canon of Scripture. No church by its decrees gave to or pronounced on the books of the Bible their infallibility. The Bible owes its authority to no individual or group. The church does not control the canon, but the canon controls the church. Although divine authority was attributed to the New Testament books by the later church, this authority was not derived from the church but was inherent in the books themselves. As a child identifies its mother, the later church identified the books which it regarded as having unique authority

Amen

3 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Yeah this account reminded me of that “divine council “ scene in Job too …you might be interested in my post on another thread. Here   where I share some stuff from a cultural background study Bible

If you haven't seen this, it is pretty interesting and informative, although maybe a little dramatic..

37 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

Considering Jesus Christ’s transcendence and immanence – I can’t imagine Him doing any less for us.

Indeed, and us is..................

Colossians 1:20 KJV
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

its where no child left behind must have come from

10 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Most of what is posted on GSC are the evil works and the putrid fruit from not only VPW and LCM, but of other leadership of TWI. Whatever the pasts, before TWI, are of VPW and LCM, are not widely expressed here, but their evil works and corruption abound. For example, women in the ministry were subject to sexual exploitation from both men. Other leadership folowed by also taking advantage of innocent women. 

I realize that some people may not believe in big Xs and little xs (ie. sins) but if there are, one of the big Xs is definitely the teaching that there is not serious judgment awaiting certain born-again believers, especially leadership who abuse positions. To whom much is given, much is expected.  The lie of no punishment for believers because.......grace, is one of the nastiest told ever. I am confident the Lord is able to straighten it out.

19 minutes ago, Stayed Too Long said:

 

40 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Insightful message.

Nevertheless, we CAN judge/evaluate/measure against known standards VPs/LCMs words and actions.

Yes indeed, that is an excellent point! We have to judge/evaluate/measure in order to move forward(or even backward....or sideways).  The known standards we choose will guide our own works and fruit. Words and actions are works and produce fruit of one kind or another.

On 10/19/2022 at 7:04 AM, chockfull said:

That makes sense to me.  People masking their mental illness behind the idea that it is “revelation”.  In a similar sense how much of VPs revelation was narcissism wrapped up in a gift wrap?

Yes I think you have something there where people resolve cognitive dissonance by making up a voice in their head telling them something I.e. revelation.  I am not saying inspiration or God communicating to you is false.  Just I do not agree with all the rote Iron Man suit like interpretation of what the way teaches about manifestations any longer.  I mean if they screwed up the body of Christ scriptures that bad how can I trust them on manifestations?  Beyond the fact I never saw any evidence of the reality of the “all 9 all the time” quote that was popular.

More like people wandering around muttering to themselves and making up crap about each other.  Never any real healing or miracles.  And other idiots damaging people for life by their selfishness and blaming it on revelation.

Your logic makes more sense in evaluating people by their fruit like Christ taught.

 

POWER POWER POWER!

As I posted somewhere else, the very name of the class Power for Abundant Living is a huge clue to the misdirection of the gospel of Jesus Christ provided therein.  Did Jesus talk about power? Sure.  Was it the dominant theme of his ministry? Absolutely not.  His was a message of selfless service in love.

Interesting that “all nine all the time” is mentioned above.  Even on the face of it it is ridiculous and it is a wonder it ever became a catchphrase.  Even the classes taught that 6 of the manifestations in 1 Cor. 12 could only be ‘operated’ by God’s prerogative.

Really starting down a rabbit hole, just because there are nine manifestations of Holy Spirit listed consecutively in a reproof epistle should not cause someone to assume that there are only nine.  Manifestation simply means evidence, and even a cursory reading of the church epistles show that the primary manifestation of the spirit is love.  The gospels confirm this, and it is the glue that holds the entire Bible together.  In truth, Paul notes in 1 Cor. 13 that manifestations not produced and governed by love are nothing but lying signs and wonders.  Focusing on manifestations as something you can ‘operate’ instead of realizing that what they are is the love of God being shed abroad leads to nothing but confusion and every evil work.

I cannot judge VPs heart, or LCM’s - just because they were big shots at one time does not mean that they were not misled.  Unbelievers are not enemies, they are merely more people who need Gods grace and mercy, just like me.  Evil works and putrid fruit, however, are manifestations of something other than Holy Spirit.

56. Because someone who threw out all their biblical research materials still wants to be called "Dr".

Sorry, Sir. I'm all out of Lo Shantas. Could I interest you in previously owned Lo Maka Seetay, perhaps?
 

Hmmmm... it hasn't been smoked in has it?

13 hours ago, T-Bone said:

Remember in PFAL class wierwille says 

Tell me what you think of Jesus and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually.

 

 

One could argue for the evangelizing value of that. And maybe that’s all he meant at the time.

 

Sometimes I get into wondering how a cult-leader develops. Did the “tell me what you think of Jesus” question morph into  galvanizing and polarizing strategies? In other words, do you believe in Jesus the way I do? If so, then you’re cool - you belong in my group. If not - you could be possessed -cuz there’s no way you can believe in the divinity of Christ and NOT be possessed.

 

If you look at what different people said of Jesus in the Gospels and epistles you’ll find a wide variety of impressions.

 

It’s cool to ask questions like “what do you think of Jesus?”. But it should be an open question. I think it’s manipulative and a sucker punch if someone is setting me up to condemn me for thinking of Jesus in a different way than they do.

It started out with broad, grand statements like the Bible is the revealed Word and will of God, but quickly devolved into a spiritual bonsai tree, with nutrition stunted, light limited, and limbs pruned and tied off into grotesque caricature of their natural development. The result bore little resemblence to the gospel the Lord had brought, lived, and died for. It is no wonder that so many people, gazing back at a life they were so invested in, are not merely puzzled, but horrified, at the ways in which they were misled.

Fortunately, God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will, so we can be assured that the wrongs will be righted and the tears wiped away.

It was Nathan taking the place of the absent Mike.

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

Remember in PFAL class wierwille says 

Tell me what you think of Jesus and I’ll tell you how far you’re going to go spiritually.

 

 

One could argue for the evangelizing value of that. And maybe that’s all he meant at the time.

 

Sometimes I get into wondering how a cult-leader develops. Did the “tell me what you think of Jesus” question morph into  galvanizing and polarizing strategies? In other words, do you believe in Jesus the way I do? If so, then you’re cool - you belong in my group. If not - you could be possessed -cuz there’s no way you can believe in the divinity of Christ and NOT be possessed.

 

If you look at what different people said of Jesus in the Gospels and epistles you’ll find a wide variety of impressions.

 

It’s cool to ask questions like “what do you think of Jesus?”. But it should be an open question. I think it’s manipulative and a sucker punch if someone is setting me up to condemn me for thinking of Jesus in a different way than they do.

Yep seems like you have to look at what somebody does to know whether they believe what they're saying... if there was ever a poster boy for galvanizing and polarizing strategies Jesus would qualify.  It's interesting in light of that the records are ambiguous enough that people can wonder whether or not he was a trinitarian.

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I don’t mean to be dismissive above.

You had quoted my line:
"Now God does not always get His will."
(late edit)

It’s just that you’re bringing up a huge subject:
the different layers or the different wills of God.

 

 

 

God’s overall, top level will is to tolerate sin.
But His will at our level is to not like it,
because it is against His will at our level.

God always gets His way in the long run, in time.

But right now, at our level on the timescales
we have to wait for that to happen.

*/*/*/*

But could you try, eventually, to show how this fits in to the canon theories being presented?

I apologize. I assumed since you brought it up you considered it relevant.  I will try to be more careful

10 hours ago, Mike said:

Now God does not always get His will

Hmmm - where did you get that little gem?

'Christ’ is literally ‘anointed’. Jesus  said he had to leave so that his disciples could receive their own anointing(John 16:7). So what was his anointing?

(Luke 4:18, AV) “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,”

The anointing a believer has is to preach the Word, the gospel of Jesus Christ, and to become a servant as he was.  Perhaps this is what was meant by the Word taking the place of the absent Christ,though it was perhaps worded in a way that is easily misunderstood. There were some aspects of the Way International teaching that possibly distracted from Jesus’ approach to the gospel

Although I can’t say VPW knew he was misleading in some things he taught, his approach to the scripture was quite narrow and perhaps distorted by his own longing.  The main foundation for the Way International was ‘Power For Abundant Living’.  He built a broken cistern on Chapters 12 and 14 of 1 Corinthians, a reproof epistle. Power really appeals to the natural man. What’s interesting about that is that Chapter 13, the middle of the ‘sandwich’ is where most of the spiritually nutritional value comes.  "Love, Service, Giving, Obedience, and Humility for Abundant Living" just doesn’t have the same ring to it as "Power for Abundant Living"…  

Since the great majority of the over 41,000 ‘Christian’ denominations declare the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I will risk 'resurrecting' this dormant thread.

One of the great reasons there are so many gospels(or denominations as many people call them) is that very few people are willing to put up with God as He reveals Himself in the Bible, so they form Him to suit their desires. This involves adding to, subtracting from, changing, or just misunderstanding, the scriptures.

It is interesting that ‘faith vs superstition’ is under discussion here, because the reason I first ‘made a ripple’ here was to post a link on a thread about Acts 17 To the unknown God.  Coincidentally(yeah right), Paul begins his discourse to the Athenians with superstition(v. 22), and ends with faith(v. 31).  Superstition is how man makes the gods he wants, and faith is what God gives a man to allow or cause him to believe in the resurrection.

The Bible also says(Rom. 10:17) that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.  A person may hear enough to have faith, but deviations in doctrines after the basic faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ are abundant, mostly because few people are happy with God as He describes Himself, so they change Him into something else. There are also obviously some who spend time, perhaps a lifetime, in church(es) without ever being sure of the resurrection, because that's what those around them are doing.

The really good news(which is rarely preached or believed) is that Jesus Christ has been tasked with reconciling all of creation unto himself, and thereby to God. He always does the Father’s will, so we can rest assured he will not leave us hanging.

In the grand scheme of things therefore, no matter what ‘flavor’ of Christianity we end up with(or without), God’s loving arms are long enough and strong enough to catch us and hold us close.

some additional interesting info...
 

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/introducing-the-athenians-to-god-pauls-failed-apologetic-in-acts-17/