Catcup

You are absolutely right on this. Not every woman will manifest the behaviors I have above described. But the behaviors I have described have been found in a significant percentage of this population. This also is very true. Recovery can depend on how stable the person is to begin with, what kind of help they receive or don't receive, what kind of relationship they have with and what kind of support they can get from family and friends, among others. This also can be true, especially if they have not fully recovered from the assault. This is not an intentional "vibe," but sometimes an insecurity left by the initial sexual assault can be so profound, that it cannot be masked by the person who has survived this sexual assault, and many times that person is not able to even recognize their own insecurities. Unfortuately, like some of these assault survivors carry a profound and unmaskable insecurity, sexual predators carry an acute sense of being able to pick up on even the slightest hint of vulnerability. The moment they detect that scent, they hyperfocus on their target. This is also true, not only of rape trials, but of other kinds as well. I served on a murder trial this summer and witnessed exactly that phenomenon. The details were muddled by trauma, yet the guilt of the accused was obvious. However the state failed to prove its case. It was the very unfortunate case where twelve people knew in their hearts the guy was guilty as sin, but because of technicalities they had to acquit. The verdict did not change the ugly realities of the murder they knew this man committed. It's a flaw in our court system. Our system of justice is not perfect. Also right on the money. Like I said, the kind of defense tactics used are rigorous, and the defense counsel uses them because it is his/her job to defend the accused. Unfortunately, the tactics are also used to intimidate, which is also the job of the defense counsel. It is often very painful, and yes, it is necessary in our system of justice. Unfortunately the nature of the damage done by the crime of sexual assault itself renders many victims unable to withstand such a trial. A catch 22. Just my opinion, but that is a flaw in our system of justice. A debate currently waged in law schools everywhere.

I have received yet another flurry of private messages asking about The Impact of Abuse on Childbearing Women Here is a brief overview, which I hope you will find helpful. Just for the record, this happens to be the area where I was trained personally by Penny Simkin in 1992. Not all women who have been abused will have any of these symptoms or outcomes, or any of the symptoms previously listed on the Normal Human Reactions to Rape thread. However, the symptoms and outcomes I am listing, are normal human reactions to sexual abuse and have been noted in a significant percentage of that population. Women who have been abused have a higher incidence of cesarean sections for failure to progress. Many times, there is an adequately wide pelvis through which the head could easily descend, but for no apparent reason, the cervix does not dilate or efface beyond, say for instance, 4 cm. and about 50%. (Attention: That doesn’t mean if a person has been diagnosed with failure to progress that you can say they have been sexually abused. That can happen for other reasons….) During labor itself, some abused women pass their early and middle stages without incident, but in transition, the loss of emotional control can be severe. Women who have abuse in their background can manifest problems earlier, but can especially have difficulty going through the transitional stage of labor. Transition can be rough on any woman. However those with abuse in their backgrounds may be blindsided by a more intense mixture of emotions and stark terror. This sometimes results in dissociative behaviors. Tuning in to your body and becoming internally aware of the changes and contractions is the usual way to surf the waves of labor. However, tuning in to their labors and giving in to the pain is often frightening for survivors of sexual assault. The pain associated with crowning can be especially traumatic and confusing. For example, and it helps to remind the patient that the pain is from the baby coming out, and not something going in. In general, because of their past sexual trauma, these patients have a distinct fear of losing control. They fear loss of control not only of their emotions and their physical bodies, but also over the entire process of pregnancy, labor and birth. They may find the changes in their physical bodies disturbing. They may find the normally intrusive but usually painless medical procedures and exams during prenatal care painful and traumatizing. They may have severe reactions to graphic birthing films and breastfeeding instruction. Fear of loss of control can be manifested in different ways regarding birth. Many of these women have a distinct need to control every part of their pregnancy experience, outlining elaborate and almost impossible to obtain birth plans, and manifest attempts to control the doctors, midwives, and medical personnel. They can be demanding, unreasonable, and distrustful of the physicians and staff. This usually makes for rough relationships with the staff, unless they have identified her as a survivor of sexual assault. Once a woman has been identified as a survivor of sexual assault, her behavior begins to make sense to the staff, and it makes sense to give this person the power she needs over the experience. At this point if the personnel allow her all the control over her experience they can reasonably and safely give her, the birth experience can actually be a healing and victorious experience for this woman, to have her own control over this significant event regarding the parts of her body that were previously so violated. If she is not identified, there is a danger that she will likely be further traumatized by reactions of the alienated staff. Rather than try to gain control over everything, some survivors of sexual assault go to the other extreme and give up all control over things that are even within their own responsibility to undertake. They may choose an obstetrician who is dominant or domineering, and surrender all decision making, or refuse to make decisions for themselves. That particular behavior is also seen in women who may not have been sexually abused, but have been emotionally or physically abused by a spouse, significant other, or family member. For those of you who want to read more, there are at least two books I know of right off the top of my head that you might find helpful: The Courage to Heal by Laura Davis and Ellen Bass When Rabbit Howls by Chase T. Jove For my friend Pond, who might want more scientific proof from the appropriate medical research journals, since she/he finds my own credentials are so woefully inadequate, please reference: “History of physical and sexual abuse in women with chronic pelvic pain” Rapkin A.J., Kames L.D., Darke L.L., et al. Obstetrics and Gynecology 76(1): 92-96, July 90 “Prevalence of sexual abuse, physical abuse, and concurrent traumatic life events in a general medical population.” Greenwood C.L., Tangalos E.G., and Maruta T. Mayo Clinic Procedures 65 (8): 1067-1071, August 90. “Dissociative symptoms in relation to childhood physical and sexual abuse.” Chu J.A. and Dill D.L. American Journal of Psychiatry 147 (7): 887-892, July 90. “Medical problems of adults who were sexually abused in childhood.” Arnold R.P., Rogers D., and Cook D.A.G. British Medical Journal 300:705-707, 17 March 90 A note about post traumatic stress disorder—some have asked questions about this. Rape can predispose a person to this disorder. In fact, a person may get through the initial recovery period without incident and go for a decade or more without problem. And then, when they are faced with labor and delivery, or if they are victimized by say, a burglary, or are involved in an automobile accident, this can actually trigger ptsd, and the symptoms seemingly come out of the blue. Yet these effects are directly tied to the sudden violence and intrusion that occurred in the assault.

If you didn't need the attention, you wouldn't have done what you did, kiddo. Now, back to my regularly scheduled projects. Enjoy your little world Pond. You're the biggest fish in the little mudpuddle of your mind. I have bigger fish to fry...

Well, it certainly doesn't guarantee a person can read with comprehension and/or spell and punctuate, now does it? Read it. I never claimed to be an expert, I said I speak from my training, my education, and my experience. You want the name of my malpractice insurer? Yes, I carry it. Have never needed it. Which I answered. You simply didn't like the answers you got. Just what I thought. You can't handle the message, and so you attacked the messenger. You can't handle the challenge, you can't do the research, so you back off.

I appreciate everyone's support, I really do. But I don't need an apology from Pond, I have a challenge to POND: If you don't accept my credentials, that's fine with me. Deal with the content: PROVE THE INFORMATION WRONG. And do it from ACCEPTED JOURNALS FROM THE MEDICAL AND SOCIAL SCIENCE FIELDS. Here, just a few suggestions: Annals of behavioral medicine Applied & preventive psychology Clinical practice and epidemiology in mental health Clinical psychology Clinical psychology and psychotherapy Clinical psychology review Health psychology International journal of behavioral medicine Journal of health psychology Journal of social and clinical psychology Professional psychology Professional psychology, research, and practice Psychology, health & medicine Stress and Health Stress medicine New England Journal of Medicine Social Science Review Be my guest.

Maybe you'd better do more research to find out what kind of doulas exist and what their training requires to actually be employed. You truly are ignorant. I am part of an interdisciplinary team. Look up the word "interdisciplinary." My ego is just fine, thank you very much. Your response is not surprising to me, seeing that it comes from someone who at least appears can neither read with comprehension nor barely spell well enough to put a sentence together. Maybe you ought to look again at my credentials. What makes YOU an expert, eh?

I am a certified childbirth educator (CCE). That is a minimum 2 year certificate that is internationally and professionally recognized. I am a doula, not a "daula." An education IS required if you want to be certified. That is another minimum 2 year certificate that is internationally and professionally recognized. That adds up to four years of education and training, not to mention continuing education credits to keep up certifications. You want me to total my hours for you? Sheesh. And I was trained personally by the top recognized names in the field. There are standards that one must prove to have met to have those designations and to keep meeting them. My certificates are not simply recognized by the state. Mine are recognized internationally. I met and continue to meet very stringent standards. I have worked professionally since 1989 having served an apprenticeship during my training. I worked not only with Dr. Rawlins after my certification but also an agency in the Cleveland Metropolitan area. And yes, childbirth education and related issues are considered part of the "medical" field. I am currently working in both of the fields of my majors, while attending school full time. And let me add this to it: 4.0 gpa, Dean's List, memberships in International Honor Societies related to both of my majors (Pi Gamma Mu for Social Sciences and Phi Alpha Theta for History) and scholarships so I have no out of pocket expenses. If that isn't good enough for you, then nothing is.

You go right ahead if you think it will help her. That's why I posted this.

I WROTE THIS. Like I said in the original post, it is in response to a flurry of private message questions due to the Broiling Cesspool Thread. My four year education as both a CCE and Doula beginning in 1989 included a specialty in identifying sexually abused clients and how to help them during pregnancy, labor, delivery, and postpartum. I was a member of ICEA for about 10 years and beginning in 1997 worked several more years for an agency in the Cleveland metroplitan area doing this work. I sat at the feet of people like Penny Simkin, Paulina Perez, and Cheryl Snedeker. Anyone in the field will recognize the significance of those names. I worked privately teaching, identifying, and following high-risk (abused) patients for Dr. Rawlins. I am currently a double major at a private college in the Cleveland area: Psychology with a concentration in Social Psychology, and History with a concentration in Middle Eastern Studies. Anything I have posted here regarding this kind of human behavior has been general knowledge in the medical and counseling professions for many years, and is easily accessible at any rape crisis counseling center

What I call the "Broiling Cesspool Thread" has generated a lot of private messages to me with people asking questions. One person in particular brought up the puzzling post-rape behavior of someone she knew and wanted to understand it better, so I am posting this in the hopes that it might answer some questions you all are asking, and help folks better understand the dynamics between human beings. I do not at this time have the luxury to indulge answering any more questions on this forum, as I am simultaneously involved in several intense projects, revising a book, and getting ready for the semester to begin. Consider this simply a public service announcement. Discuss all you want, and do with the information what you will. The information contained herein is part of my education and training in counseling both women and men who have been raped. Normal Human Responses to Rape Question: "1. When I was in college a friend of mine - a very, very, very quiet and meek girl - was raped in the lobby of her apt building. Within months she became HIGHLY promiscuous! I mean - she was screwing anyone she could find. It was almost like she had said to herself, "Okay, THIS time I get to choose!" 2. I know of instances where some of VP's victims (true victims and not "pimps") became very promiscuous as well. Anyway - the question I guess is : Is what I've noticed a "usual" thing?" Answer: In response to your question regarding the behavior of the woman you knew, it's not necessarily that they say to themselves "Okay, this time I get to choose!" Rape gets to the core of your very being and deeply affects your self-image. In response to the assault, many victims blame themselves for what occured, and are at risk to begin to think they contributed to the situation somehow by their behavior or the way they dressed. Was my makeup too heavy? Was my skirt too short? Was my shirt too lowcut? Were my jeans too tight? Was my walk too suggestive? Did I say the wrong thing? Were my curtains open at night? Did I leave my door or window unlocked? The list of self-doubting questions go on and on ad infinitum. They begin to minutely pick themselves apart all on their own, believing that somehow it is their fault and that they somehow sexually aroused someone else. This is a huge flaw in not only the understanding of the victim, but also in the understanding of the general public. The main thing everyone needs to understand about the crime of rape itself, is that in the mind and motivations of the perpetrator, rape is NOT primarily about sex. Rape is primarily about the power and control one person wields over another. The offender many times truly believes in his own mind (this is a delusion) that the person "wanted it," and will finish up by telling them so. Along with that, he many times will make threats that if he or she goes to the police, either (a.) No one will believe you, or (b.) "I know where you [or your loved one lives, works, shops, goes to school, etc.] and I will and xyz..." Especially if the attacker is someone the victim knows, at this time any power or authority the perpetrator possesses which he can use to intimidate his victim will be employed. And this is what it's all about. The heady and intoxicating power the perpetrator gets in humiliating his victim, overpowering them, controlling them, and manipulating them into submission. That, my friends, is what rape is truly about. It's a power trip. The immediate almost universal response afterward is to feel absolutely filthy, and an overpowering, almost irresistable need to get clean causes many victims to head to the shower. It is very common for these people to wash themselves repeatedly for hours, even scrubbing themselves to the point they bleed, if they aren't bleeding already. I will repeat: The urge to do this is so overpowering after a rape, that this is part of the reason rape is difficult to prosecute. The evidence is often easily washed away. That is why the advice given to women in self-defense classes and such is that, if you are raped, DO NOT SHOWER OR CHANGE YOUR CLOTHES. CALL 911 AND WAIT FOR THEM TO ARRIVE. It is hard enough to get people who are raped by strangers to do this. Unfortunately, people who are raped by someone they know, are even more likely to doubt themselves, and delay filing a report. This increases the likelihood that any evidence is lost by waiting days, weeks, months, or even years to say anything, because they so heavily blame themselves. Another reason people respond to rape the way they do, is how rape victims have been routinely treated. Even the questioning by the police officers who are attempting to help you, will by its very nature be intrusive. At this time, this adds to the trauma, and even the way it is done can unfortunately reflect personal attitudes of the interviewer (even though they are supposed to not allow that to happen), which can be either good or bad. That can either help or hurt the victim, depending on how the officer conducts himself. Questions are asked about the type of clothing worn, the activities just prior and immediately after the incident, ugly details of the rape itself, and this adds to the victim's trauma. In the courtroom, the typical courtroom defense tactic is, and always has been, to attack the victim's character. Why? Because they know that is the tactic that works and is the most likely to get their client off the hook, which is their job. Every bit of dirt about your past, no matter how distant and unrelated, is fair game for an attorney to dig up and throw out into the public domain. So, typically, traumatized rape victims don't want their lives on display like that. The trauma of retelling the event is like being raped all over again, this time, in public. And then on cross examination, it's even worse. Knowing the gauntlet they have to run through in order to prosecute the crime, many remain silent and limp on with their lives. Rape is not something you should ever try to survive alone. However, the fear involved in telling their story, prevents so many people from coming forward or seeking any kind of help at all. Many times, not only do they not prosecute the crime, but they also don't tell anyone. It is a very personal, embarassing crime, which many feel a great deal of shame about, for all the reasons I have outlined. As a result, many people who have suffered this crime, also do not get counseling. Consequently, the damage to the self-image and self-esteem of victims of this crime is severe, even to someone who was well-adjusted to begin with. However, those who have been victims of any kind of violent crime previously, or previously abused in any way, or have any other mental health issues no matter how small or severe, can experience symptoms with increasing severity and/or frequency, relapses, fall deeper into depression, and even develop psychosis. It is quite common for ANY rape victim, no matter what their background, to at this time develop post traumatic stress disorder. Regarding your question about promiscuity: Due to the blow to self-esteem, depression, and identity confusion, many men or women see society as having branded them as "damaged goods" because of their rape experience, and begin to develop self-destructive behaviors, like the promiscuity you mention. It's not that they say "Hey, I'm going to choose now." It is the fact that they, as a result of the trauma, believe they are the scum they've been told they are, develop a self-loathing, and begin to engage in self-destructive behavior. Some suddenly become promiscuous. Others begin behaviors like self-mutilation. Others drink heavily or abuse drugs. Some turn to food and suddenly will gain 100 or more pounds, in an effort to destroy a once-beautiful body they feel betrayed them. The subconscious belief is, the fat will insulate them from another attack, because now they will be repulsive. Others turn to criminal behavior such as shoplifting. Some abuse others. This is all self-loathing behavior. So that is all I have time for at the moment. I hope this helps answer a few of your questions about the way human beings normally respond to rape.

He wants to grow up and be a sexual predator just like his hero. I'm done with you. Tomorrow I get to get up and interview REAL men. REAL heroes, with GENUINE integrity. Something you will never experientially know.

This was no cut and paste, dear. This thread took this direction when a poster answered a question Jonny posed and HE DID NOT LIKE THE ANSWER. And he wants to ignore the truth. Are you adding your name to the list now?

You know what, I am well aware of the rules. I can't remember being this angry on this board before. As far as I'm concerned, you're a fkg coward and a blind idiot. I am done with the likes of you and your ilk.

Yep. I have one. Shows up on eBay occasionally and goes quite well.

Sad to see those who just can't stay away from hurting someone else's positive experiences? You mean, like hurting people who were so excited to finally meet the man of God? And he pokes his prick in your face? Like, believing the WOW field will be the experience of a lifetime, and it was, but not like you thought it was going to be? I am so sick of you fXcking pigs, who, even when the truth of a first hand witness is right in front of your eyes, you still push it aside and IGNORE IT. You fail to see that YOU are the very reason so many rape victims suffer in silence. Do you have any inkling about how many raped women may be reading this in tears, saying to themselves, "hell no, I'm not going through that, I'll keep my damn mouth shut and crawl into a hole somewhere." You have no idea the raw guts it takes for a woman like Marsha or Ex to tell her story. Just to tell it. To ANYbody. My sister cannot even today tell me everything. And you have no idea what you do to them when they tell you the truth and you brush them aside like you just did here with excathedra. Damn you idiots, damn you. You have no fxcking idea what you are doing. You have no idea what it will take for her to get over just telling what she told you. And you just tossed her aside like so much trash. Like VP tossed her aside. Don't you GET IT? Thank you ex, for sharing your experience. And thank you exwaycorps, for your corroborating information. My hats are off to all of you men here on this thread who have the cojones to stand up for these women who have been raped. I have no earthly words to express my disdain for you absolute swine who just did what you did. And you don't even realize it. Or, just maybe you DO. And that's exactly how evil you ARE. Made in the exact image of your idol. You people fXcking make me want to vomit.

*snicker, snort!*

My parents were brand new grads of the Power For Abundant Living Class, having completed it in July of 1975. This was a class that seemed to bring their two daughters back to them emotionally, when we had been in our separate orbits for a bit, with typical teenage rebelliousness. They had seen my sister and I become more respectful of them and their parental sacrifices for us since becoming grads of PFAL and leading bible fellowships in their home for several years before. They watched us become responsible people, entrusted with the care of many people under our leadership. They figured if TWI trusted us as leaders, they could trust TWI as well. I had already been out WOW ambassador and my parents liked what they thought they saw it do for me, having lived on my own since age 18. My parents felt secure, back in 1975, for several reasons. A big one was, my sister was to be placed in a family of women with a family coordinator who was Way Corps, and over the age of 21. Incidentally, she was sent to the very same city I had opened up as a WOW ambassador a year or so before, so there were already people in that state and in that city there, who knew both me and my sister, people who I had gotten in the Word. They knew my family through me, and they knew my sister through meeting her when my folks visited me when I was there on the field, and from meeting her several times at The Rock of Ages. So that gave my parents yet another level of security. It's not like she was being sent to a city full of strangers, with God only knows who. This was mapped out with some thought. They did sign some kind of paper allowing her to go. She would have turned 18 the following year out on the field. That's why at that time TWI allowed 17 yr olds out on the field-- if they would come of age on the field. They did not allow anyone younger to go. You had to be a high school grad, or the age of a high school grad, to go. Things were much different back in '75. And my parents had immense respect and trust in "men of the cloth." We all placed our trust in the hands of a man who appeared to be very trustworthy at the time.

In my opinion, that's where the best times were, and where the real love was, face to face on a local basis. Several times in Chicago, we got fellowships or WOWs together and did a pizza night. We made Chicago style stuffed pizza from scratch. We would divide up into crews-- dough crew, chopping crew, sauce crew, etc. While one crew was working in the kitchen, the rest of us were hanging out in the rest of the house playing cards, board games, laughing, talking, and having a great time. At the end of the night we had the best home made Chicago stuffed pizza you ever tasted. And plenty of sweet fellowship. We used to get together to help each other out with home repair projects too-- when we could own homes :/. One of our TC's bought an old ramshackle property near the Indiana Dunes. Great neighborhood, nice lot, but needed a lot of work. He bought the tools, the gloves, provided lots of food and drink, and we all chipped in and helped clean up the property, do landscaping, and afterwards, a great party! Another time in Chicago, we surprised Bxll Fxrris with a trip on the Bible Lands tour. Bxll was a sixty-something year old african-American cab driver who lived on the poor side of town and had run his own felllowship for about 8 yrs or so before we even got there. He was the ORIGINAL South Side Saint. Matter of fact, I commissioned his wife to design that famous South Side Saints T-Shirt. I thought in honor of his service, wouldn't it be great to do that for him as a surprise-- a once in a lifetime, beyond his dreams trip. At that time it was well over $1500 to send him, but we all banded our spare change, I organized bake sales to put on when New Horizons did free concerts inthe park, and we raised enough money to surprise BXll with this tour. There were a few people who couldn't understand why we weren't doing this to send "the Leadership" on this tour. Hell, WE WERE the leadership. The point was, to honor a simple, basic, faithful believing man who had proved himself over the years to be a good steward and servant of Gods people. For the most part, everyone was excited to do this, and when we announced this to Bill, he was speechless. I'm sure it was the greatest thing that ever happened to this man. At this date, Bxll is probably gone now. I'm glad we did this for him back in the day. I'm proud we did it. Now-- THAT is a "good time." Like I said in other threads, I credit God with the inspiration and the unity and the love and the good times we shared together. When I look back on those good times, it had nothing to do with the (ugh) "man" VPW, the organization, classes, or programs of TWI. It had to do with the unity of the spirit and the body of Christ working together to bless and honor one another. NOT honoring an organization. And as far as I am concerned, we had fun in spite of TWI, not because of them. Usually when they got involved (in whining voice: "Why aren't you sending the leeeeeeeeadership or the Waaaaaaaaaaaaay Corps to the Bible Lands?"), they were trying to be spoilers.

Even Are The Dead Alive Now?, the book VP was sooooooooo pleased with his research on, quite possibly has lifted passages in it. While studying at The University of Chicago, Dan McCxnaughy found a book with strikingly similar ideas and concepts. Dan told me that he noted that this volume had also been in the library when VP studied there. He wondered if VP had used it while researching the subject of the dead. He copied the book and sent a copy of it to VP. VP wrote some notes in it and sent it back to Dan. Geek has a photocopy of it. When he stops having to work 12 and 15 hour days, he wants to re-read it and compare it line by line with ADAN. Then we will be able to know if he also stole ideas from this book. Because there are no footnotes for this book in ADAN. Is it possible he read the information in that book, never took good notes on what he learned, but incorporated the information into his ADAN book without crediting his source because he forgot where he learned it? Quite possibly. Would that be plaigarism? Absolutely. For instance, while writing a paper last year, I thought of a particular comparison that really brought home a point I wanted to make, and I put it in the paper. I had read maybe 20 volumes, each about 200-400 pages each in doing my work. As I re-read my paper before turning it in, I started to have doubts about whether I had actually come up with that comparison on my own, or read it in another book. I started remembering a certain book that I might have gotten that comparison from. Started looking through it to see if I could find it where I thought I might have seen it. But it was a 3 inch thick book, and I had only a few hours before the deadline to turn in my research. I didn't have time to document that comparison properly. So I rewrote my paper to take it out, even though it was valid, and would have made a profound point. Why? Because if I had included it on the hopes that it really was my own work, and it wasn't, and a professor knew where that idea came from, I COULD BE DISMISSED FROM THE COLLEGE FOR PLAGIARISM. Plagiarism can be due to intentional deceit, or it can be due to sloppy notetaking. VPW was guilty of both. IN ADDITION TO BEING A SEXUAL PREDATOR. And you guys want to revere this man for his "INTEGRITY"? BTW-- Got an A+ on that paper............

My sister was 17 years old. Many of Vic's victims were teenagers. That man, the man you so revere, was a sexual predator. We're not talking about a man who made one mistake. As I remember with David, he had this problem with Bathsheba. That is one woman, right? David suffered the consequences God promised of losing his son. David repented. And David took Bathsheba to be his wife. What did Wierwille do with the women he used? He did not love them, he used them, then recycled them, until they were useless, then threw them away. Where was Wierwille's repentance? How many MORE teenage girls did he do between 1975 and 1985? Where was his repentance? There's the difference for ya.

Sorry Ham, you got me going on the humor thing and I just gotta tell ya.... Heaven can also start to look like some people's version of hell. Just a nugget from one of several of my classes on the middle east, from an article in ISLAM WATCH called Virgins? What Virgins? written by Ibn Warruq. Just imagine if you as a suicide bomber, instead of waking up to black-eyed virgins, woke up to this.... : http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/...,631332,00.html Disclaimer... Ibn Warruq is his pen name. And as scholarly as the work appears to be, there are some linguists who differ.... It's still funny!

If you don't understand it now, I doubt you ever will. So, whatever.

It's not a "pat theory" Dove, it is accepted among medical institutions, institutions of higher learning, and yes, even churches. The standard of professional behavior among the relationships previously mentioned is based upon the knowledge of this kind of problem which can occur. Yes, you are ignoring that.

You're welcome Sky. As you know, it was not fun to have to stand before the wrath of Victor Paul Wierwille. But I am glad that I will be standing in my own shoes when I stand before God, and not his. It is never easy to drag this all up again. But the way the worm turned here proved the point. The attitude of the predator was propagated in his own image in those who defend his actions and deny what these women went through. My undying admiration is reserved for those brave souls who not only survived, but find the strength every morning to get up and live and breathe anyway, in spite of what happened.

Here we go: First dot: Solomon repented, and wrote so eloquently about his repentance God saw fit to memorialize it for all time. Second dot: Victor Paul Wierwille NEVER DID. All he could do is admit he didn't have the courage to do what he knew was right.