My3Cents

I heard something that VP gave Geer the European rights to all his books.

In fall of 1986 Geer held a meeting of all clergy at way world in Ohio. He reamed out Craig and the board of trustees and I think (memory fades after a while) that's when he put 2 more people on the board - Townsend and Cabalero. After that Craig and the gang were compliant to Geer for a while. I suspect they would have put him in charge of the whole enchalada if he'd asked for it but he didn't.

My understanding was that in that compliant time, they gave him European copyrights to all the the way stuff. I bet they regretted it later.

Pete and others - thanks for sharing more of the time line of what happened in Great Britain after that.

I don't believe in fellowship anymore. I hang out with family, friends and business associates (approx in that order). Right now I'm off to my 35th High School reunion. Should be interesting because I got into the cult when I was in High School and I haven't been to any of the reunions ever. Though I have kept up with a few of the folks.

More at http://www.jesusandmo.net/

I don't know how to do this thing called Christianity, without being involved with a group of christians. I really don't. And maybe I should not do anything at all.....but that just can't be the answer.

Why do you have to do this thing called Christianity? Why can't "not doing anything" be the answer? Does there have to be an answer?

These are questions I struggled with when I was leaving the way (in about 1986) I was a corps grad and way clergy. I had devoted my entire adult life and career since high school and college to furthering the way. I found if very helpful to question not just what I was taught but the premises that informed the teachings - even the very need for teaching. For example the way people said "Our research in the bible reveals the only true word of god" I found it useful to ask why should I believe the bible is considered the word of god and why did I even believe there is a god.

What I found was I'm much happier and live a much fuller life if I am OK with some questions that don't have an answer. Perhaps the same will be true for you. It takes guts to question things at this level.

Good luck.

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Sunesis previously posted the following concerning cg,

vpw's bus driver and the writer of Passing of the Patriarch:

I went there clueless, and there she was with CG, her leader, and PL, the corps coordinator at that time. Well, first CG yelled, then lowered his voice and hissed saying awful, sick, destructive stuff about this woman. The thing was though, usually, people calm down after a few minutes, but he ended up going on and on and on, and literally hissing at her for almost 45 minutes. I started wondering, what the heck is going on here? All of a sudden it dawned on me, 'he is enjoying this!!'

This reminded me of something - my ex-wife has a personality disorder (called borderline for all you psych freaks) and she has this same pattern - yelling and screaming gets her more wound up not less. And trying to walk away to calm the situation makes her worse as well. I'm sure lots of top way leaders had diagnosable conditions and CG right up there with them.

The funniest "reproof" I ever got happened pretty close to when I left the way. I was a branch leader and my boss was a real idiot. (I now understand he's a motivational speaker - what a blight on that profession.) Anyway one of the twig leaders in my branch was great at running a lot of PFAL classes. But he was a young twerp and was doing a lot of stupid things seducing women in his twig, drugs, building his own cult loyalty within the branch so we had some "issues." Of course, my boss sided with him because that's where his numbers were coming from. He called me into his office and just read me scripture. Didn't say anything about any specific incident or how / why the verses were applicable to our situation. Not like a teaching or anything - more like a bunch of retemory cards (remember those?) He asked if I had anything to say and I said no and went home. It was really strange.

As I mentioned, I knew Bob quite a while ago - from 1972 to about 1980. I left in 85 or 86 but didn't have much contact with him in those last years. My impression was that he was a very nice guy, sort of an ideal middle manager type. Could play the game, brown nose when needed and quietly move up in the ranks. But I also think he was a wuss. I knew of a couple of incidents when people above him or the system didn't sit right and he never did anything about it. He was probably different to people "under" him than he was to those above. Like I said a middle manager, don't make waves, try and move up the ladder kind of guy.

Just for the record, Heefner wasn't witnessing in New York. Others did that and started running PFAL classes. Heefner was imported to head it up. So if VPW hadn't been around there would probably be just whatever they did in Calif. The house of acts, the Lonnie Frisbee thing. Probably it would have peetered out faster too - like the jesus freaks did.

That would probably be a good thing. Oh well, no one twisted my arm to get involved.

I just read this thread and it sounds like just the ticket. I used to know Bob & Dottie pretty well - I was in Rye when Bob was brought in and I went LEAD with him and stuff. I only knew Brian as a young kid.

But I think a lot of folks who are still around would love to follow a charismatic leader - especially one with some attitude and who puts people down. Anyone who's still in the way is probably attracted to the idea of "US" being better than "THEM".

Maybe it wouldn't take a revolt. Maybe Rosalie is not so dumb. Maybe she knows she's not charismatic and dynamic. Maybe she's tired and ready to give the reigns to a young turk. I'm sure she'll orchestrate a nice retirement package.

I think it's funny that a 40 year old is considered young blood. I know that's young by corporate standards to head up an organization and I guess they don't have many really young people with new ideas.

Keep us posted here at The 'spot

Thanks - this is the kind of gossip I read this blog for.

TWI is a 501 c(3) organization according to the IRS - that means it's not for profit and your donations are tax deductible. It also means that it has no owners in the legal sense that a corporation does. When the organization goes defunct, it must give its assets to another such organization. I don't know who gets to decide which one. Nor do I know the legal definition of "defunct." I suspect if they had one person on staff they could meet the legal requirements.

[digression] And there is little restriction on how they spend the money before it goes defunct as long as the spending can be seen as promoting the mission of the organization which allowed it to be 501 c(3) in the first place. That's why when it was deemed necessary for the leadership to travel the IRS doesn't care if they do it on a bicycle, or a private plane as long as the travel is for the organization and not, for example to get personal groceries for a staff member. Are these things violated in lots of little ways? All the time. The IRS doesn't have enough people to check the details of every dollar every group spends. [ end of digression]

The email of the real estate broker sure has an interesting URL http://oltiv.org/

Also I don't think it's relevant that the way sold the property for less than they had invested in it. They didn't buy it for an investment, they bought it for it's use. Kind of like when you buy a car - or a piece of equipment for your business. They more than got their money's worth from that perspective.

Hi Nicole,

I lived with your dad - at The Way HQ when we were both single - in one of the trailers. (I don't think I ever knew your mom - I guess I was out before they got together) and I can echo the others here. He was a wonderful person with a caring, giving heart. Everyone without exception! Admired and respected him. And he served the way leadership all the way to the top.

It's hard to lose a father at any age - especially as young as you were. Don't let what the way people said to him at the end worry you. The people who count think of him as the wonderful person he was.

I'm sure he'd be proud of you learning to think for yourself and live your own life. Thanks for sharing a bit of it with us here.

OK somebody once asked [For those who have changed their beliefs, how did the circumstances of your exit from TWI influence your subsequent religious/spiritual beliefs?]

Mine came the other way round. It was a change of beliefs that influenced my exit from the way. I doubt however, if I would have had the balls to change my beliefs if circumstances had not happened the way they did.

I was clergy and a corps grad. In the mid 80's C Geer read the POP paper and then called a clergy meeting at HQ where he reamed out the board of trustees and they basically went along. In the hub-bub lots of my peers were trying to figure out who to stand with and who has the most accurate understanding of the word.

I took it one step further and asked myself, why I even believed there was "a word" or why I believed the bible was the word of god. The answer was I only believed it because of some preacher from Ohio that I'd listened to many years ago. I decided I needed better evidence than that. So I decided not to stay with the way at all.

Turns out I never did find the evidence and I found that when I stopped looking for answers to every question my life got a whole lot better.

There were no way folks in Rye before summer of 1970. The advanced class was spring of 1972. I can't believe anyone still has the tapes from that (or that anyone cares). Amazing.

So sorry to hear this. I lived in her house for a year when I first graduated the way corps. She was a very loving, giving and spunky individual. So grounded and down to earth, that looking back I'm surprised she stayed with the way as long as she did, but I don't fault her for it - we all have to deal with things as we see fit and I know she was doing her best. The way she dealt with life and the people around her was quite spectacular.

She's one of those people who made such a difference in her profession and the many, many patients (and others) that she touched - there should be a book written about her.

My condolences to her family.

Dear Hope,

I'm so sorry. I knew you back in the old days, though I never had the pleasure of meeting your mom. From many of your posts but especially this one you sound very well grounded. That doesn't negate grief at a time like this nor should it. The best thing you can do for your memory of her is experience the grief. Sounds like you're doing that. I feel honored that you'd share it with us here.

I'm quite rusty on my jewish traditions so all of this may be wrong, but my recollection is that after the funeral, you don't visit the grave for a year - till the unveiling of the tombstone a year after the death. At this time the stone is unveiled with a party - often a picnic at the graveyard. My understanding of the reasons for this are that a year without visiting the tomb gives you time to grieve without being overly tormented as the sight of a new grave may do when you're still tender. Then the party a year later gives you hope that all is not sadness and life still goes on.

Take from that what you will. Another thing that may be helpful is a book called "Necessary Losses" by Judith Viorst. When you're ready - if ever.

Take care.

- JOHN

Hi Another and Welcome.

My approach to this may be different from what you're used to.

Let me deal with the business end first [For context - I've been a serial entrepreneur since 1979, a business coach since 1994 and for 15 years I've owned and supported myself with a company that is not a video store but is around the same business so I know the problems you are facing.]

Disclaimer - I don't know your entire situation so I can't really give advice - consider this education.

The video store business sucks. It's a dying industry and impossible for independents (with a few exceptions base on being in a very unique neighborhood or something like that). If I were in that end of the business I'd get out as quickly as possible. Cut my losses and run. Far away.

That means you should probably get a job. Get one that is not stressful and pays the bills. If it takes some time to disentangle from the store, get a part time job mean while.

As for the rest of your life, [My context here is I spent 16 years of my life in the way. Was in the 5th way corps, was clergy, worked in the field as branch and area leaders and lived on staff. I knew VPW and LCM personally]. I got out many years ago and have rebuilt my life in a way that is better and more fulfilling than any I could imagine when I was in - that includes my business and financial success but more importantly my family and personal success.

You've been traumatized, emotionally and psychologically. It's as bad (maybe worse) than being in a debilitating accident. Put as much effort into rehabilitation as if you got a leg blown off in Iraq. And foregive yourself as well. By that I mean don't think it's your fault. You got taken advantage of. Focus on the future and rebuilding. It's not something you can do alone. Get a good therapist. One who's worked with people harmed by cults. It will take some consistent hard work, but you'll make progress and it will happen. Focus on small improvements. They add up quickly if you focus on them, they seem trivial if you try to focus on the big picture too soon.

I would forget about spirituality and reading the bible. Build your life back. Food, clothing, shelter. A job or work that's at first not stressful and ultimately satisfying. Friends, family, people you like and even love and who like or love you back. The idea that you much have a spiritual aspect to your life to be whole is, in my opinion not true. And it's an idea that has been used to trick and traumatized a lot of people throughout history. I know many here may not agree with me but that's the way I see it. Frankly, what you've been doing recently hasn't been working. No shame in that. We all go down rabbit holes for a while. Now it's time to try something else. I'd try rehab - career wise, and psychologically.

Best wishes. Hope that helps.

The whole thing sounds like something written by their PR people. I wonder if this is another "Terry Bradshaw" type promo where our ABS actually paid for getting that in the magazine? Can someone pry & find out.

I have no idea about this magazine but many trade journals need copy so bad they'll print anything given to them as long as it's reasonably on topic - which this sure seems to be.

I personally think it's funny to see a sound engineer in a suit and tie but maybe a lot of those guys who work for churches dress that way.

I was involved in the 1970's and early 80's. They were big on being conservative politico's. Very pro-Regan and anti-Carter. And it used to come up in a lot of teachings. This was before the huge fundamentalist push into American politics we've seen recently.

So my question, for those still in or who know those still in - what are they saying now about politics. Do they say much about the war? Global warming? I'm sure they would go along with the anti-gay marriage thing, but back in the day they would not support the anti-abortion thing (abortions were pretty common in the way to deal with the consequences of all the sex).

Or do they just not mention it much?

The other thing you had to drink on the cleanse was a powder you mixed with water that turned into a gel - like metamucil. That's what had the laxative effect. Supposedly the alfalfa pills were for nutrients and the clay was to de toxify your system.

Then after a week or so of this, you stared eating again with just fruit for a couple days.

I'm sure that there are people with internal problems which would be exacerbated by this kind of thing. But the way wasn't the kind of place where they acknowledged that or allowed for people's individual problems. Most of the folk I knew were young and in good health so for most it didn't cause any problems but hunger and frustration. Though I doubt it had any of the benefits they touted other than the placebo effect.

The way had lots of fringe beliefs about eating and health - most were not observed by top leadership. Grace Bliss (who was mentioned here) was in my experience just a "normal" healthfood nut, but I've also seen her eat a hamburger so I don't think she was too far off the deep end.

In fairness, I must say the way also had some beliefs about health that were pretty cutting edge. They adopted Kenneth Cooper's work on aerobics pretty early on and made the way corps run. They also encouraged people to quit smoking. These beliefs were not observed by top leadership either.

I do want my kids to have a hunger to know God like I did at her age.

We all want lots of stuff for our kids. A lot of it is around being like us (or not being like us) at a certain age. Oh well. Get over it. Kids have their own mind. The best thing you can do for your kids is teach them to decide for themselves (because they will anyway) and let them know you'll love them no matter what choice they make. You have to show them this - not tell them for it to be effective.

It's tough work being a good parent. Good luck.

To believe a lot of the claptrap that's taught in a class like PFAL takes a lot of denial. You have to deny things you see every day, deny feelings and insights you have, deny a lot of logic that you know intuitively about how life works. Even teen agers know this on some level (though it may not be a conscious level).

So for a person to be attracted to that much denial, there has to be a strong motivator. In my case it was to have a father figure, a family I could believe was loving and someone to direct my life and save me from making the hard choices that growing up into a responsible adult demands.

I suspect your daughter's level of attraction will be related to the severity of her unmet emotional needs. The best thing you can do is show her respect and let her know that you are there for her - without being overbearing. She'll have to go through it at her own pace. This doesn't mean you have to go along with anything you don't like, or lie about your opinions. Just that you have to respect hers even when her logic doesn't hold up. Keep in mind the appeal of these groups is emotional and deep seated.

If there are some obvious problems in her upbringing that might make a cult attractive to her, then the best thing you can do is admit your part in those (if any) and change them. Discuss this growth in yourself with her - but only about you. Leave her to figure out it's affect on her.

Good luck and hang in there.

I went into the 5th corps. When we applied it was a 2 year program. By the time we got accepted, it had changed to a 4 year program - 2 years in residence interspersed with 2 years on the field. The first year was not in residence (and it turned out we were already doing that year by the time we got accepted). Then the next year was in residence. Then the 3rd year was the interim year and the last year in residence.

I was in college when I applied. I actually took a leave of absence and got some credit for my 1st year in residence. I went to a college with weird requirements. Then on my interim corps year I went back and finished up college.

FYI the fifth corps was the first really big corps (about 75 people if I recall) when we went in and by the time we came out, they had bought Emporia and we were the last small corps.

As to why I went? At the time it seemed like the thing to do. There was no "requirement" that you had to do it to get ahead in the ministry but it seemed like the way to get the best training the quickest.

Looking back, I realize I had no idea what else I was going to do with my life. This was just another avenue for me to have someone else tell me how to live.

If I keep my mouth shut and bite my tongue, everything is fine, if I open my mouth and challenge anything, SHE FLIES OFF THE HANDLE and goes CRAZY that I would ever challenge her beliefs in the way.

As others have said - that's a bad sign for a relationship REGARDLESS of the subject matter which precipitates the bad behavior. My wife and I don't agree on lots of stuff but neither of us FLIES OFF THE HANDLE or goes CRAZY about what the other says or believes.

However my ex-wife did (she and I were in the way together). I found out later it was a sign of a personality disorder (exacerbated by involvement in the way).

Since you are young and looking for advice I'll give you some I wish I'd been given (not that I was looking when I was your age). Consider this. Who you are attracted to says a lot about YOU. But we tend to think it's about how cool the other person is. As a result we often ignore warnings signs about unstable behavior.

Here's a book I can recommend. "Getting the Love You Want" - by Harville Hendrix. It talks about why we fall in love and what we try to get from a relationship. I think you'll find it useful at your stage of life.

it seems to me that there is very little published about the negative impact of the way...

probably because there isn't a large market. Unless you self publish, like Karl did you won't get it published. And I doubt that even if you self publish you could make any money on it. So it would be a labor of love and a financial contribution to boot. That's why god invented the internet.

When I was in (I left in 86) the way leaders didn't shy away from telling followers how to vote. They even got busted by the IRS for taking too strong a stand on the election of a wayfer in Maine. And all the recommendations were to vote republican.

Does anyone know if they promoted candidates or issues in the recent election? I know the anti-gay stand of evangelicals would fit with their position - that would be a problem because they don't like to appear as standing with any other ministry. But also the evangelical anti-abortion position would not fit their beliefs. And I wonder what they said about the war? I'm guessing they loved it at first but did they ever realize how awful it is?

I'd love to hear from those who know what they were saying before as well as after the vote.