jetc57

Geesh, I must be listening to the wrong people.

I thought the difference between a man and a boy is how MUCH/OFTEN he plays with his Toys! :blink:

Concerning 'the spirit world, and people like Hitler 'accepting anything'.

I don't buy into this theory at all because for my own Biblical Research Reasons I've come to believe:

1. When a person dies, their 'spirit' returns back to God.

2. Their body turns to Dust.

3. Their soul awaits the Return of Christ.

With those three points said, the DEAD, know NOTHING and cannot make one single decision.

I do not agree with 'the spirit world reference'.

I can't imagine ALL dead people living in limbo or otherwise.

Until the second coming of Christ, Its my understanding that the Dead are simply dead and awaiting the return. That the 'Dead in Christ' (Christians) will Rise from their graves much like Christ did., they will be raised in newness of life. BUT, its also my understanding the the Dead who are NOT in Christ when they DIED, do NOT get a second chance.

After the "Dead in Christ" are risen, then those who are alive (God's people) will be caught up to meet HIM in the air and so shall they ever be with the Lord.

I've read no mention (and that doesn't mean there isn't one, just means I've not read one.) --

none of any already dead non-believers or any non-believers left at the Return going with Christ anywhere! What am I missing?

I do recall in my reading/research that there WILL be a Judgement for the Just and the UnJust. For the Just it is called the Bema, for the Unjust it is called, Being Cast into the Lake of Fire!

I personally believe that in the Fall of Satan, there were birthed God (Jehovah's Creations) and then there are the Children of darkness (Satan's flock).

IT just seems this simple to me for some reason.

The United Pentecostal Church International is NOT Trinitarian. It is a Oneness group. Oneness types characteristically deny the eternal identity and existence of the Son of God.

For a critique of Oneness dogmas, see:

http://christiandefense.org/oneness.htm

What exactly do you mean by a Oneness group? Prehaps you mean UNITARIAN? Monotheistic (One God who gets worshipped) (One Son who paid the ultimate sacrifice for us, Jesus, whom we are Joint Heirs with)? I don't see THAT as denying the eternal identity and existence of the Son of God. Seems this defense.org are labeling people who do not believe in the Trinity in an unfair and in-accurate way. I think their interpretation of what THEY THINK THEY KNOW about what OTHERS BELIEVE -- to be PURE BULL S_ _ T!

For one thing the JW's don't think or teach that Jesus 'collectively' is GOD. That would be (God in three persons- blessed Trinity). THEY DO NOT TEACH a three-in-one GOD. This web site you provided is just so grossly opinionated and obviously not well researched. I was among the JWs so I know what they teach, as well with TWI, and JESUS IS NOT GOD. In either of these two groups teachings, and I've gone to the UPC web site and they are clear on what they believe. Unitarians do not deny CHRIST, they just don't believe the SON is also the FATHER. The God-head bodily function much like a household where there is a father (head of the house) and children. They have their facts WRONG on so many things they 'think others believe/teach'. Its yet another attempt at a Trinitarian Organization to Blast the teachings of those who don't conform to their way of thinking.

The JW's in their teaching see Jesus as a 'Great Teacher' as well as Michael the Archangel. (that one confused me.)

Other Unitarians see God as Monothiestic (One God but NOT with three persons.)

This organization has misunderstood the teachings of UPC an JW. Probably cause they can't grasp the concept of 'simplicity'. I don't know, but I read it and they WRONGLY Misrepresent the Unitarian Beliefs. To prove what? That the Trinity is the Divine Theory? Heck, the word Trinity isn't even in Scripture!

I'm thankful to hear they have an attorney., but I understand the frustration and the losses that occur in the meantime. My heart goes out to them and I will continue to lift them in prayer.

It is never easy being in 'the waiting room'.

Now that's a TRUCK that's been to Hell and Back.

Sometimes I feel exactly like it Looks....

Speaking of Chet Adkins, my Dad owned every album ever made, and he played Chet Adkins stuff DAILY. The kind of Country n Western I have NEVER liked is Porter Wagner. That twang thang always bothered me.

Buck Owens I enjoyed. Its been years, however since I've heard any of his tunes.

I'm pleased to hear Country n Western music has more 'happy lyrics', rather than the sad stuff about loosing one's wife and dog, etc. I've heard if you play those songs backward, they will have happier endings. :unsure:

And may I add this........

You Never want to say those things to a Texan who has Plenty of Guns and Ammo!!!!

:unsure:

Danny;

You bring to light some interesting thoughts. Thank you. As to the Cor. Scripture I don't think I recall it EVER until now. Baptism for many Religions is an 'outward manifestation' of an 'inward commitment'., and if it helps someone in their walk with God, I think its a positive thing.

I would also think that 'being baptised for the dead or loved ones' might be of comfort to someone.

Gosh I love learning new things.

Temple Lady, thank you as well for your reply.

Love ya'll

Jet

WOWEE You have literally had me in Suspence all friggin day, ex70s.

Thanks for finally explaining.

Are you exercising better 'caution' with your toys now?

For your sake I hope your Guardian Angels continue to help keep you safe, or have you scared them off with all those guns and ammo? :D

ex70shouston -- me thinks you misread the poem. The MAN bought his Woman the gift.

The man is writing the love poem to his woman. Its rather cute and extremely funny!

Anyway that's great news about your little filly and her fine catch.

The first of her fine catches was YOU!! :blink:

------------------------------

Here's one I learned in "Christian Family n Sex Class". I think. :blink:

"A good man is hard to find, but a hard man, is good to find!" :huh:

templelady;

God Bless You. First of all, I personally believe you are entitled to 'believe' whatever you want. We have freedom of will.

I'm a bit confused, however. I have never had the pleasure of going to an LDS service, but I have family and dear friends who are Mormon., and my sister was as well for over 5 yrs.

My grandparents were and various cousins, and I've been in discussions with them and the subject of 'getting baptized for the dead' never came up.

Please excuse my ignorance. Is this knowledge from the Bible, where they get the notion?

I was under the impression, scripturally, that Baptism is not a requirement for 'Salvation'.

I was also under the impression that each individual person is responsible to God for his/her own actions. The only people who are protected spiritually are those of our own children who are not of the age of accountability and therefore covered by 'their parents believing'.

Aren't you Saved by Grace if you 'Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised HIM from the dead'? (John 3:16 also comes to mind.) I'm a bit rusty on the chapter and verses to support these thoughts, but can and would find them if you want.

I have thought for many years that the LDS taught this as well. When Jesus died and was resurrected it is said that (what he did) was fullfill all the laws and prophets. It is my understanding that in fullfilling the law, we who Believe then no longer have to go to the 'Holy of Holys once a year to seek forgiveness of sin', 'and being Baptised with Water was now unnecessary'. The OT laws were fullfilled as prohesied. The thing after Pentecost was that we would be baptised in the Holy Spirit.

Curious where the 'baptism for the dead' came about. I can't imagine being responsible for someone other than myself. How are we to be accountable to God for another? The Spiritual Walk (in my opinion) is One on One with God. What am I missing out on? Perhaps I need to read your posts in more depth. If you've answered this delima before, forgive me for asking.

Jet

-----------------

D-Miller; I cannot view the group hug icon, but thanks for trying.

Cynic: I tried to keep up with all that stuff you wrote. TY for the info. I have one of these brains that work best in understanding things if they are 'Simple rather than Complex'. I can never reason with 'circular reasoning, or indepth theory'. I would have never made it in Theology had I taken it in college. I gotta 'Keep it Simple'. or you can call it KISS. Seems the more complex the topic the more I tune out. I personally believe understanding God is pretty simple. Things like: God is Love, God's love is Unconditional, God is Light, etc.

The Trinity theory, however any Religion cares to 'write about it' is NOT LOGICAL to me.

I don't buy into any 'teachings' that get COMPLEX, I don't think God would have us be confused., nor do I feel that it requires explaination. I've never even seen the word 'Trinity' in the Bible.

I'm not criticising you in any way -- I'm just throwing in my personal thoughts on the subject.

What you wrote did validate my notion that there are 'sects' out in the world that DO teach 'Mary is the Mother of God', and I don't agree with their 'theories'.

For what its worth, those are my thoughts.

Cheers :blink:

I, too will be praying for them both as well.

I am wondering one thing. DO THEY HAVE A LAWYER?

I think they need to find a good attorney, and go after the person who hit her and seek to recover for their financial losses. Then, after that perhaps your sister can apply for disability, if her injuries have caused her not to be able to work. Its only right, AND that is one reason we pay for taxes and pay into our social security. Its there when we need it.

God Bless You and Yours.

Jeannette

rascal, Sorry but I think you might misunderstand me a tiny bit. I LEFT years before all this stuff happened. I hadn't heard of any of the skism until I heard John Lynn speak one weekend in Seattle WA area. He was with CES, and I was puzzled. A co-worker invited me, and I was surprised to find Rev. John Lynn speaking in a non-TWI event. He filled me in on as much as he could then later send me the Greer letter thing and GreaseSpots has clued me on more.

In reference to 'taking a stand', please I was not referring to those who TWI disbarred or shunned. OF COURSE you took a stand, that's what got you OUT. I am really talking about the LEADERS in POWERFUL Positions taking a STAND against the WRONG done to OTHERS. Instead, just like you explained, those Powers that Be, turned against the very people they should of been PROTECTING. They should of protected them against LCM and others who used their POWER to deceive.

The true evil-doers should have been 'kicked out' not those who took a stand!

Please forgive me if my note was not clear on who I hold accountable!! If you suffered because you took a stand -- then I only admire that you took a STAND. It truly troubles me that TWI chose to support those who were WRONG. But, 'what goes around, comes around'. Look at how many people LEFT? TWI is but a shell of a so-called-ministry now. They are in a heap of trouble, and do not have the Financial backing they once had.

No matter how we left, its a good thing we are no longer being controlled by TWI? How can we support a ministry that has done so much damage. What did it profit them in the long term?

I read a great deal of 'bitterness' - I did not experience the same things others have, therefore I do not have any 'first-hand' bitterness or hatred for TWI when I was in association with them. I was out before 1981. My heart goes out to you and what you endured, and I pray God heals your heart.

There ARE so many wonderful people who have left, and I'm sure some still foolish enough to remain in TWI. IF anyone from TWI had told me to 'ignore, or cast aside a brother or sister Believer', I would have NOT OBEYED them. I am not one to 'FOLLOW ORDERS' easily, and I would have had little respect for someone who told Me to do something that went against my better judgement. I am the type of person, tho who was bold enough to have taken a Stand with ya! Than against ya!

God Bless You.

Love Jeannette

Its Sad. Sounds like many people became "Slaves to TWI", so the Glorious Leaders could line their pocket book.

What did I hear in the first PFAL Class I took in 1976?

VPW was saying something about "God told me to tell you, to sell ALL your property, and give ME the money". I thought at the time he was talking about OTHER GROUPS doing that to their followers., it sickens me to learn -- they were really into that way of thinking. Geesh - using their power to 'control, and gain profit'. Seems their dictatoring caused a great many Believers to be tricked out of their Properties (properties that years later would have gained them wealth).

What happened to the teachings that as Believers we are entitled to "The More than Abundant Life"?

Being in debt for a home was a 'good thing', and in doing so we 'render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's" and to God the things that are God's. Good thing I learned "Charity begins at Home", before I ever gave it ALL to TWI.

Sorry to hear so many people were led BLINDLY and did not take a STAND against such Legalism.

I am glad I got out when I did, even though I was FORCED out, and all my TWI literature, PFAL books, and all were DESTROYED....

D.Miller

I'd love to see the 'after' shot of that truck. Did it take the load?

Absolutely! Right on Raf!

VPW's theory (which he used to justify his own behaviors) was that since he was a 'Believer' (by way of John 3:16) that he was FORGIVEN for any sins he committed in the past, and the ones he WOULD commit in the future. To heck with a God consciousness as a result of true conversion.

Confession of Believe yields Receipt of Confession.

All Cult Leaders use something to justify their actions as being 'God ordained'.

To me that kinda makes a mockery of God and his Word. There is no darkness in God.

I wonder in the end of days what God would say to VPW. Would he say "Depart from me, for I never knew you?" Would VPW be classified in that group of people who did all these things in the name of God, saying 'lord, lord, look at what we did'?

Anytime a Leader abuses his position, I personally believe God's Word speaks volumes when it says:

(I'm not familiar with the chapter n vs right now). But I'm quoting from Retemory the jest:

Concerning the Household of Faith. IF you do something bad to the 'least of these God's children', you do it unto God also. (Anyone can help me out here, with chapter n verse). But I'm thinking, the lesson was "Don't harm God's Children" -- he won't like it -- GRACE or NOT.

When Charasmatic People start "Organizations" and those organizations gain wealth, and the leaders gain power -- then often times they become dangerous. Sometimes these people start the groups with malice of forethought - and intend on deception and steal, kill and destroy. Other times, they start out innocent enough with good intentions but then power gets it out of control.

I can say this and feel good about it. I am SO GLAD, I am not GOD. I would not of had the patience. I would have smote anyone who crossed the line between godiness and 'darkness'. All those years since I had left TWI, I had no idea how things got so out of control w/various leaders. It breaks my heart.

We can't go back in time, and we can't make up for Lost time, either. I know many people will continue now to measure other 'ministries' by TWI.

About United Pentecostal Church. I am now confused, I thought they were NON-Trinitarian. I read the stuff on their web site, but perhaps I need to read it again. I thought they did not believe Jesus was God. Trinitarian doctrine (from my view point) seems to say Mary is the Mother of God, and therefore Jesus is God. But God is the Alpha and Omega, Mary couldn't possibly have mothered GOD.

There is a wonderful book that I picked up while in TWI (two books actually.) One is Orientalisms of the Bible (By Pillai) the other is Number and Scripture by Bullinger. So glad they weren't TWI literature.

Also, one more book worthy of anyone's library is "Life is Tremendous" by Charlie Jones. I don't think any of these authors were ever involved in TWI.

It looks and sounds easy and don't think I don't try all of that., it just doesn't (err Didn't )work for me.

I will keep trying.

I just noticed in my post options HTML was off, so maybe that is/was my problem.

If this here line is in a different color and bold, then I've solved a mystery.

Looks like simple HTML editing. I have done that tons of times. Duh? :blink:

WOWEE, its a MIRACLE.. TY Raf!

OMG ROTFLOL

I Never Meant the Littering a CAT does. hahahahaha. I LOVE Cats, I have an awesome kitty, who is Persian, and he is Litter Trained. I have to be really careful on here whom I offend, and how WORDS have other meanings.

Don't plan to ever get a gun, so all litterbugs are SAFE.

All hugs accepted and thank you.

My first experience with typography and the printing industry was as a "Fellowlaborer" in Austin, TX under the direction of Rev. Burton. I typeset and printed the GrapeVine. Anyone remember that?

Oh well, Belle, you are a sweetie, I was WAY gone from TWI before you ever came aboard.

I always had hopes of being on staff with the Way Magazine, but instead God did bless me with the ability to own and operate my own Printing company for 10 wonderful years.

I appreciate all the REAL people I'm coming to know through GreaseSpots. I've even re-connected in here with a couple of my friends of afore, and they are still awesome!

Thanks for the welcome and the hugs. :wub:

The 'good that was there' were the Millions of people whose HEARTS and MINDS were in the right place and they honestly and without greed or malice actually LIVED GOD'S LOVE.

IF we could gather together all of the Believers who made TWI what is once WAS, we'd have a sweet, sweet, fellowship?

I for one miss the beautiful, 'Christ in You' people. I miss how we all use to bring out the best in one another. Minister to those who were hurting. I miss the healing power of the Word. I miss the fellowship with genuine godly people.

Not having gone in the Corp, I didn't have to endure things that others did.

I hope we don't have to wait for the 'gathering together' to experience the Household at its best., we could use that kind of daily influence now.

Light dispells darkness - right?

At the time Raf, TWI seemed to be the Safe replacement for the JW group., as I was instructed that if I were to return to a Church, it was pagan and God (Jehovah) would be destroying it and anyone within its walls. I was thrilled that TWI met in homes and taught a lot of similar things. (example: Jesus Christ is Not God.) Then the fact that Christ was more than just a 'great teacher', also had my respect. I really loved the opportunities for travel I got in TWI. The Music Ministry, the many friends., the 'positive thinking' teachings that helped to boost my 'self esteem'. Those were valuable to my future and have kept me from going 'insane'. A positive mental attitude is just plain healthy!!

My first spiritual experiences however were in the Baptist Church. I now have a difficult time visiting any Church to this day. I feel so lost and uncomfortable in 'Christiandom' altogether.

When I learned about this place I had hopes of finding long lost friends and wondering where they went from TWI and where is it SAFE to worship....

Guess you could say I still have unresolved issues about where to serve God., and I am lonely spiritually for fellowship.

:blink: I so need a hug.....

JET: Raf, are you affiliated with the JWs?

RAF: No, but I was, in my childhood.

So, we have some things in common? That is interesting.

JET: I could get out previous notes I made while I was in the organization and show you all the places where they put in the word Jehovah, or Jesus in place of the word 'lord' where it WAS NOT appropriate.

RAF: That would only reinforce what I said, which was, “The New Testament is where it gets tricky, because they used "kurios" (not sure I have the exact transliteration there) when quoting OT passages that contained YHWH. So sometimes inserting "Jehovah" in place of Lord is appropriate in the NT, and sometimes it is not.” So, if I said sometimes the change was not appropriate, and you show instances where it was not appropriate… I’m confused. Where are we disagreeing? :)

I don't guess we are disagreeing at all, RAF. Excuse me for inferring. I apologize.

JET: One thing comes to mind is where it was talking about a woman and her husband, and it was said her husband was her 'lord' in the Bible, in the NWT is said Jehovah (I believe).

RAF: I’m not familiar with that verse. I’d love to see it.

Actually I no longer have a collection of those Watchtowers or Awakes which 'corrected those mistranslated verses'. I looked, thought I had saved them. Perhaps I threw them out when my dad passed away about three yrs ago. He was the JW who disowned his family until a few years before his death. (Long story, I'll just skip it., it wouldn't profit anyone.)

JET: You are protective of the JWs; is this because you are among them?

RAF: Am not; no.

I should of put a ? after the first part of that statement. OR rearranged my words to Are you? Glad to hear you aren't and to have these replies.

JET: If so, I caution you against this group.

RAF: You’re about 24 years too late on that one.

That's almost the same amount of yrs ago I was forced to be involved.

JET: They are fear motivated, among other things.

RAF: Including disingenuous, legalistic, and no fun at birthday parties.

Yeah I know, the only celebration they have are 'death parties' or 'weddings and anniversaries'.

JET: …but hey, you and others should follow your hearts.

RAF: Umm, thanks.

If of course that had been where your heart was. :-)

JET: I personally have found many of their doctrine full of mis-truths.

RAF: So have I.

JET: For instance, do you REALLY believe Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel?

RAF: Did I say I did? Where did I say I did?

Again, IF you had been - course I'm blessed to know you also found a way of escape., and still have your SANITY and obviously a Sound Mind.

JET: There would be more. I've made it my passion to try and FORGET about the indoctrination I went through within that Group.

RAF: Why did “Group” get a capital G in your statement? A little holdover respect for The Truth? (I’m kidding, of course. Just wanted to see if I could get a rise out of you). Anyway, I’m the opposite: I don’t want to forget that experience, because I want to recognize it when I see it happening again. For instance, the church I currently attend (even though I don’t agree with them on every point of doctrine) recently celebrated its 20th anniversary, and they had this big, back-patting celebration the last two Sundays. They were kind enough to tell us they were going to do this. I stayed away, because I get the heebie-jeebies every time groups get so danged proud of themselves. Too Watchtower and Way for my tastes.

Actually Raf, sometimes I just cap words for no good reason. I have an iMac and I can't even bold words from within this greasespots format. I also have severe neuropathy in both hands n feet, so sometimes in my typing I have difficulty. I try to proof-stuff but get in a hurry. Human error.

JET: At any rate, I didn't intend for my comments to 'offend' but perhaps if you want to start a post in support of the JW's so many TRUTHS, I'd be glad to dig up my notes.

RAF: Why would I want to do that? Because I think they got YHWH right in the OT? I think they got tithing right, too.

Yeah, they have a great many things 'right'. In my opinion as well.

JET: I'd also be happy to share with you years of Horror that occurred all in the name of that Organization.

RAF: Great. Not only do I have to live through that, now I have to hear how you lived through it? :) Kidding again. But, hmm, a capital O in Organization…

Aren't Lots of nouns suppose to get caps? No you don' t have to hear or read anything about me, or my past in the JW organization or even TWI.

JET: How a man disowned his family because they did not become JWs. OH, I could write a book.

RAF: And I could read it. In fact, I have. Several times. One of the best is called Crisis of Conscience. Interesting stuff.

TY for the reference.

JET: Have you ANY idea what takes place in their Headquarters?

RAF: Yeah, and I’ll give you a hint… ker-CHING! ker-CHING!

JET: Russel and Rutherford were in no way Biblical Scholars....

RAF: And they were no fun at birthday parties or Christmastime either.

JET: Blessings,

Jeannette

RAF: Don’t give God a direct order. BAAAAAhahahahahahahaha!

How did I give God a direct order? I must be missing something?

So, are you ex-Way as well?

Rafael

Note that I've added remarks in the Quote Section too.

Ex-WAY, is that OBVIOUS? :unsure:

Yepper, but I had a great many WONDERFUL experiences in the Way.... by the way.

I HAVE NO GUNS, and if I did, I'd be shooting at all the people who LITTER.

I LOATH the ACT OF LITTERING.....

I'm a TEXAN without a GUN or desire to carry one.....

Thank you RAF, now I can sleep better at night.

Being Human is such a Hastle! :D

I am a sensitive person who NEVER proposes to 'offend' others.

YES I AGREE -- How could I have forgotten that one, Both my Children have come to use and enjoy that one. Thanks.