brainfixed

Well, I will admit that there is ONE aspect of all this that does bother me. Consent. God is a God of consent. Mary gave consent before she became the mother of the Christ child (Luke 1:38) and Jesus gave consent before he offered himself as sacrifice for our sin (Luke 22:42). Plus didn't we hear ad nauseum that God would NEVER overstep man's free will?

remember you wrote this.

I can excuse someone having desire. Although we have laws in this country regarding under age sex, for good reasons, we know that both males and females are able to cause conception and become pregnant at age 13 or so. I had my first sexual fantasy at age 12. It was about a 12 year old girl in my 7th grade homeroom. Having desire for someone that young is not "perverted". It's criminal if you actively pursue sexual relations, but it's not perverted to simply desire someone who is old enough to either cause conception (male) or get pregnant (female). Younger than that?

really? doesn't the bible say that if you think a thing you've done the thing? how it is so convenient to jump from "the word of god" to the laws of man as needed to justify what is normally unjustifiable.

There was a regular poster here named Adiosmicorazon. She hasn't posted to my knowledge in years, but reading her posts, one would conclude that she has been an above average attractive female for most of her life. She once made the point that it's OK to call a child 'cute' or 'pretty' (handsome if a male), but not 'sexy'.

that's good someone said it!

Those 3 words are the 3 generic words used to describe the appearance of males and females. There are other words used, like 'hot' but they all seem to gravitate back to cute, pretty (handsome), and sexy. Cute and pretty can be adjusted cosmetically, but not sexy. If a male or female is sexy and everybody notices it, they're not sexy because of what they do cosmetically (make up, hair, clothes, etc.), they're sexy because of how they think. Because of what they understand about themselves, their social/cultural environment.

this what you write here is very disturbing after what you wrote about about consent and then about having sexual desire for children as young as 12. what 12 year old does "everybody" notice as "sexy"? what 12 year old is "sexy because of how they think. Because of what they understand about themselves, their social/cultural environment."????

We see ads all the time about sexy hair, sexy clothes, and such, but hair and clothes aren't literally sexy, people are, and they communicate it with their eyes and their body language. Young children aren't old enough to have that understanding yet. They can be cute or pretty, but not sexy. A pedophile sees a flash of the adult the child will become, pauses it, enlarges it, fantasizes about it, and acts on the fantasy.

ok, you write that "young children aren't old enough to have that understanding yet.", and you write that "they can be cute or pretty, but not sexy.", and you write that "a pedophile sees a flash of the adult the child will become, pauses it, enlarges it, fantasizes about it, and acts on the fantasy.". you wrote these things after writing "It's criminal if you actively pursue sexual relations, but it's not perverted to simply desire someone who is old enough to either cause conception (male) or get pregnant (female)." again i have to ask what about what the bible says about if you think a thing then you've done the thing?

VP has been accused of a lot of things, but not doing young children.

how old was his daughter that he "taught" about sex?

Even the 46 year old middle school math teacher didn't do young children, just under age children.

really? that's a fine and very blurred line you're walking.

I can excuse simple desire, but not violation of consent; not using authority as a teacher/minister to coerce anyone, young or old, into a sexual relationship. That idea DOES bother me. I find it very disturbing.

but you did excuse it in all the stuff you wrote previously.

I have stated that people are angry. People have a right to be angry to an extent. It's OK to be angry at what VP did. It is. But many suns have gone down on the wrath of some of you. All the evil in the universe doesn't negate our hope, which includes no more tears plus all the other good stuff. Don't forget that.

yeah i've heard this before in this context and it went something like this "just be a good girl and renew your mind because you want to get to heaven don't you?"

you hide very disturbing things in the middle of judgemental and condemning and self-excusing platitudes that you obviously don't even believe but hope are real or otherwise you're in for a rude awakening.

you have very successfully put a finger on what's so "off-putting in the way you discuss sexual issues." (to borrow someone else's words.)

just yuck and yuck and yuck.

First, Grateful Dead lyrics are not scripture. Like scripture, however, they can pop up and attach themselves to our thoughts for our consideration. Then we decide how much relevance they have. "His job is to shed light, not to master" is the last line (summary and conclusion??? :) of the 'Lady with a fan' part of Terrapin station. Not a 100% match to scripture. I think pfal has a TON of light in it!

I don't think VP was an evil man. I think he did evil things. I think he was part of an entire generation of men who thought women existed for their pleasure. Lot of men who were bosses who hired secretaries for something other than just stenography. Did Esther sleep her way to the top? Some would think so. I think VP really WAS called of God to teach his word. Around age 50 his farm began to host many young women at a time. He's not supposed to notice?

Interestingly, Robert Hunter, Jerry Garcia's lyricist, describes one productive songwriting day as "one great, glowing apocatastasis". He wrote lyrics to 3 Dead songs, all keepers, in one day. You might remember VP using the greek word hypokatastasis as the third degree of figures of speech which cause change (similie, metaphor, and hypocatastasis). Apocatastasis is in an English dictionary. It means 1)a restoring, and 2)a planet returning to a particular point in its orbit. Not sure which one he meant; guessing the 2nd.

I think pfal has a ton of light in it. Willing to let God take care of VP, however it plays out.

but take out the middle part.

First, Grateful Dead lyrics are not scripture. Like scripture, however, they can pop up and attach themselves to our thoughts for our consideration. Then we decide how much relevance they have. "His job is to shed light, not to master" is the last line (summary and conclusion??? :) of the 'Lady with a fan' part of Terrapin station. Not a 100% match to scripture. I think pfal has a TON of light in it!

Interestingly, Robert Hunter, Jerry Garcia's lyricist, describes one productive songwriting day as "one great, glowing apocatastasis". He wrote lyrics to 3 Dead songs, all keepers, in one day. You might remember VP using the greek word hypokatastasis as the third degree of figures of speech which cause change (similie, metaphor, and hypocatastasis). Apocatastasis is in an English dictionary. It means 1)a restoring, and 2)a planet returning to a particular point in its orbit. Not sure which one he meant; guessing the 2nd.

I think pfal has a ton of light in it. Willing to let God take care of VP, however it plays out.

that middle part just sneaks in there and changes everything but it's real intent is not easily recognizable because it's sandwiched between what could be considered "knowledge" and "normal conversation", which is exactly how things got over in the way international. most people would consider getting to know someone that had written the above things without the middle part, but add that stinky middle part and oh boy! most people would keep their wives and daughters behind well protected lines around such people that would say that middle part. "slick talkers, evil walkers" is how i've heard someone describe such things as what were written "in the original".

and let me remind people that vp's lust and the lust he built into his monster machine was not directed to grown women only, but a whole hellofalot of children too. that's pure evil.

just looking back on so many things and now they make so much sense because of this piece of information, i mean even the very fact of vp's drive to form his own religion and money machine makes sense to me now because i think about his wife and children and how in the he!! else was he going to get them to shut up and fall in line after what he had done? now that i have this piece of information i know without doubt that the very idea that popped into vp's brain to form the monster he formed was after all just another way of covering his tracks, so it was all, every single bit of it, every word written and spoken that fell from his brain, it was all just a way to cover his tracks. a scam.

and that is oddly freeing for me because now i know that those in my family that it seems like they just can't let go of vp's mentality towards life is because they won't let go of the life they know they need to cover up.

God choosing Wierwille as his spokesman.

That's a little bit like hiring Jeffrey Dahmer to do a "What's For Dinner?" commercial.

:biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Wierwille, on more than one occasion, in addressing small Corps groups,stated that he fondled his teenaged daughter, in a sexual manner, to teach her about sexuality. (I'm being purposefully vague about what he specifically described.) There are posters here, on Greasespot, who were personally present. I don't know if he actually did what he claimed. What I do know is that he made the claims.

i never knew this, but this sure does explain a whole lot! no wondering why there were groups of pedophiles that ran children's fellowships! and no wondering they did it without fear of anything being done about it! and no wondering why those of us who went to the authorities were hounded and hunted down and "prophesied" over about death to us and our children for being "unbelieving believers"! i never ever understood why supposedly ordained "ministers" could hear report after report of pedophilia running rampant and do nothing but call the children liars and "seed boys", but this information makes it perfectly clear now, and it explains why i heard the "let seeing eyes be blinded" prayer so much. even though i want to break down and weep, i also see more clearly how we were literally trapped and how any reports to the authorities got dropped, because our world was literally poisonous to anything and anybody that got even close, because now i am sure that all the adults were covering up for each other.

quote:

i don't understand this. are you saying that he might have thought that the "least" was financial abundance and the "much" was spiritual abundance? or is this something that you think? either way it sets up the idea that if you do not have financial abundance then you surely cannot have spiritual abundance, and that is what the way international put into action.

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VP was talking about people who didn't even have their needs met. People who thought it was God's will for them to be poor and sick. VP attacked that religious idea a LOT.

so maybe it's a good idea to consider the opposite? i mean really, the path he led people down destroyed him and them more often than not.

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He didn't destroy me. I remember reading the section on twi in that stupid 'Mindbenders' book. The guy says, "if VP sells his class for 100 dollars to ten thousand people, then he makes 1 million dollars" or something like that. Whoopie, the guy knows how to use a calculator! Like I said, everybody uses money. If that guy sells his Mindbenders book for 5 dollars to 200,000 people, then HE makes a million dollars, too. So what.

So you think God DOES want people to be poor and sick? No, I won't even consider that.

it's amazing to see that there were some very lucky ones that escaped the thievery and destruction of mind and soul, and even death (abortions and suicides), that is the typical fruit of the way international. maybe that wasn't luck at all but instead was sheer bought "protection"? from what i've read around here and have experienced in real life, the ones that escaped the stealing, killing and destroying were the ones got under that "umbrella of protection" that vp and his partners in crime offered to those that "believed" them and that bought mostly into the material abundance schtick and measured their "walk" upon their "work" instead of upon the fruit of the spirit. how else could vp and his partners in crime operate without fear of being turned in or arrested or at the very least exposed? it takes a whole hellofalot of material abundance to buy that kind of "protection", and since vp and his partners in crime didn't work for a living, they had to get their "umbrella of protection" money from somewhere, and that somewhere was from the "tithes" gathered. so it was a very very important thing for the ones giving "tithes" to be materially abundant. see? and if you didn't do that then don't think i'm accusing you of anything, but i'm just making an observation based upon what i've read around here and what i've experienced in real life, and i don't pretend to know what god wants anymore, but i do pretend to know that the bible does say that nobody can serve god and mammon at the same time. but maybe it's all pretend?

VP was not giving a blanket judgement on all Christianity; his alternative if he couldn't have an abundant life was to get out of the ministry and quit promoting something he himself couldn't live. Perhaps he figured that the verse where Jesus said "he that is unfaithful in that which is least is also unfaithful in that which is much" applied here. That "that which is least" is financial abundance and "that which is much" is spiritual abundance, fruit of the spirit.

i don't understand this. are you saying that he might have thought that the "least" was financial abundance and the "much" was spiritual abundance? or is this something that you think? either way it sets up the idea that if you do not have financial abundance then you surely cannot have spiritual abundance, and that is what the way international put into action.

VP was talking about people who didn't even have their needs met. People who thought it was God's will for them to be poor and sick. VP attacked that religious idea a LOT.

so maybe it's a good idea to consider the opposite? i mean really, the path he led people down destroyed him and them more often than not.

So, then, how does that align itself with the teachings that said the abundant life was spiritual in nature? Here, in session #1, he's promoting it, in part, as material abundance. Later, that definition fell by the wayside.

true christians are often not materially abundant or even in health and mind abundant, but they are abundant in the fruit of the spirit. anybody wanna bet that this is what jesus meant?

a thinking process of blaming the victim is a sure sign of an abuser. i had to learn that in therapy and had to unlearn that is was my fault, and what my therapist used to begin the healing from the way international's abusive doctrine that blames the victim were the very words of jesus himself when he said "father forgive them for they know not what they do". being abused as a child is also being brainwashed into thinking patterns that cause a person to be a perpetual victim, and it takes years and even decades for a person to unlearn those thinking patterns. some of us never do and then you see our stories on the news.

Why does facebook scare you?

You have to give more info to be a member here then facebook.

And just be honest in your words,

use whatever picture you want to.

Not everyone uses a pic of themselves.

all the hype about it not being truly private and about it being hacked all the time and that kind of thing. also my family uses facebook and they'd figure me out sure enough and then i'd be harassed to no end on facebook as well as in real life.

to help explain them better than i can

their u.s. website. and a couple of quotes from their front page

• "the essence of all the prophets of god is one and the same"
  
• "oh son of spirit my first counsel is this: possess a pure, kindly and radiat heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting."
  

Brainfixed, there is a facebook group where we can all stay in touch. If you are interested I posted the link below. However, I would appreciate it if you would private message me here and tell me what name you are going to use, so I can verify it is really "brainfixed" I am bringing into the group.

http://www.facebook....p_2347471856#!/

thank you. facebook scares me.

i've decided to share this because it seems like the last chance to share anything of myself here, and i didn't share it before because i didn't want anybody to treat me like i was expected to act or speak or think or not think or not act or not speak in certain ways, but i have been interacting with the baha'is and their lives for a few months now and i am close to going all in and joining up with them. they're a very interesting lot i must say because they don't have preachers or any other ordained clergy, they can't take any donations of any sort (money or otherwise) except from actual members (if non-members give them something they say "thank you for your kind and generous heart, but we can't take this from a non-member so please pass this on to others that can use it", and then if the non-member insists then they take the gift and by their own laws they then give that gift on to another charitable organization.), they don't have "worship services", there is only one prayer they do together (the prayer for the dead) because they practice the instructions of "praying in your closet", their governing body is a group that works together in what they call "consultation" and is not appointed but is elected by all members, what they call "the manifestations" are the many originators of the many faiths in the world (krishna, moses, buddha, jesus, mohammed and many others) and those they have listed they know are not a complete list, they believe that there is no "middle man" between you and god and so they don't "preach" or "teach" but offer "consultation" if one feels the need for input from others (but they strongly discourage depending on anyone but god for guidance in your spiritual life), even though they closely follow what they consider is the current manifestation (baha'u'llah--said "ba-ha-ul-lah") they also use the writings of/about the other manifestations for guidance, as a body they don't have any "standards" or expectations from their members (of course there are those members that would push "standards" and expectations onto others, but the body continually expresses that a person's relationship with god is their own and is governed only by that person themself), and a whole lot of other things that is so far from cult practices that i feel safe among them. they do believe that every new manifestation is an addition to all the manifestations before them and i've seen this in the writings of baha'u'llah in that what he wrote is very much like reading the bible and other sacred texts, and even baha'u'llah wrote that what he put forth would not all be practical for actual use in the coming times (like how divorces and death are handled). so here's where i've come in my spiritual life. becoming a member is not a priority at all, and i'm taking it slow and reminding myself to give it time enough to show it's rear end before jumping in with both feet. i couldn't have come even to this point without the help from here, but i would have either completely rejected them or completely fell headlong into them. so thank you everybody here.

oh no! i meant to put this in "open". i'm sorry.

even though i started mingling here almost too late, i came to the party for what is now looking like the last few dances, and so even though i don't get close to anybody i still feel like i have because of all of their words i have been able to read even though i didn't respond back, so i'm going to miss alot of people here, and i am really going to miss being able to cough up a way international hairball and looking at it with enough help from others to make sure i got it all out. i'm glad this has been here and i've gotten so much from here. thank you to everybody that have kept this place going and a big thank you to the owner for going on even when alone and it seemed like friendless.

thank you everybody! now i know why i loved it so much because it helped me through the hardest times of my life when i honestly felt "I thought my life wasn't worth, the pains of my birth" i'm crying my eyes out right now because of how much i needed this song just to keep myself alive. thank you.

Bingo. It's been a while, Oak, but as usual said it better and more succinctly than I ever could.

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I would agree with that. Although, that isn't going to sit well with the commonly held belief that the bible has all the answers no matter what your society. But what is the Bible's form of forgiveness anyway? It doesn't seem to be as clear as some would say. On one hand you've got the Lord's prayer saying forgive us our sins in the same way we forgive those of others. On the other hand you're told to forgive each other the way God through the messiah has forgiven you. The former is based on your acts of forgiveness while the later is based on God's master plan that was in place long before you were around and about payment for generations of sins through suffering, death and blood. Neither seems to be about healing. Did Jesus need to forgive his killers to move on? Does God need to forgive you your sins to move on?

I don't see bitterness (claimed to be caused by lack of forgiveness) as being the thing that binds us to "the wounds of yesterday" and to those that caused the wounds. That would be pain. Pain is understandable while bitterness by way of unforgiveness puts the blame back on the one who has been harmed. That's unacceptable in mind. Bitter people are people who harbor a lot of pain. The "moving on" and "letting go" that we're talking about is letting go of the pain. As with any wound, pain goes away before or while the healing takes place. I think that is what many of you are talking about with forgiveness.

I see no need to define forgiveness in a way that suits our day, other than this "need" to forgive because we are told to by the Bible and religious leaders. Forgive for fear of not being forgiven or in the hopes of being forgiven? How about forgive those that deserve it and stay away from those that repeatedly hurt you. Don't hold a grudge unless someone has repeatedly proven themselves unworthy of your friendship and your time. Deal with your pain, learn from it, let it go and move on.

yah, what you just said! thank you for this.

I agree with your therapist. We can't carry abusers with us on our back our whole lives. They're too heavy. We should dump them off and move on, and that can't be conditional upon their realization or response. Conditions just continues to give them power over us.

IMO that's why I just leave the justice side of it to God. It's way too complicated for me to figure out.

Well, it makes you think. I mean, couldn't God just forgive Satan, get him healed up, and then there would be no more evil? Why not? And does this apply to people too?

it does make me rethink!

this discussion is getting deep and i like it!

You have some penetrating logic on this topic brainfixed, that certainly makes me rethink things. The tough part applying this is in the context of how does someone recover from an abusive situation, relationship, or environment? You have to forgive the abuser at least somewhat for your own health, to make your own self better.

i think that if someone looks at what they are trying to accomplish by "forgiving" it might make things a little more clear to just what they're doing in reality. i personally know too much about abuse and i had to learn to look at what i was wanting from those abusers that kept me from moving on in my life, and i found out that i was expecting at least an admission that they had done something wrong before i could "forgive" them in my mind, and that led to me realizing that expecting something before i could "forgive" was not really forgiveness at all, but what i really wanted was them to acknowledge their wrong doing so that i could have the satisfaction of them knowing their wrongs. that was a tough one to recognize! it made me seem so petty and childish! but really that is exactly what most people want before they will "forgive" and that doesn't really bring any peace of mind that lasts for more than the minute of that cheap satisfaction, so i had to look at what else i was thinking about forgiveness and figure out why it was so hard for me to let go, and it was things i struggled with here at greasespot cafe that got me really looking at that stuff i was holding onto and the things that finally got through to me were all the discussions i read that turned sour because of things nobody could "see" through their moniters to figure out what somebody was trying to say. that's when i began thinking about the whole "father forgive them for they know not what they do". i talked this through with my therapist for a long time and she helped me to see that as long as i expect anything like an admission of wrong, an acknowledgement of wrong, an apology, a change of behavior or anything else from the perpetrator, then i'm still bound to the perpetrator and still letting them dictate my thoughts and feelings and actions. she asked me if could just let it go because it was in my past and i didn't want to take it with me to my future.

But for justice sake and for others you can't excuse the unrepentant abuser and in that sense can't renew them to a healed state. It's kind of a moral dilemma.

it wouldn't be a "moral dilemma" to people living in a closed society with an absolute set of beliefs like with small tribes or like in a cult. this discussion board is full of people saying things like "i didn't know what i was doing when i ________ until after i got out". a good example of this is the whole discussion about child abuse in the way international and the wooden spoon or forcing very young children to be quiet and go without food and drink for long "teachings". when everybody agrees on the rules then everybody can see the simple answers even if they're "wrong" for "outsiders". i think that may be why forgiveness is such a big discussion here because it is hard to think outside of a group once someone has done it for a long time. there are still native american tribes that don't buy into the laws of the united states and these tribes can (and usually do if the tribe is strong enough) bring the perpetrator under their own laws, and i have seen this happen a couple of times and the perpetrator is usually not put in a punishment situation but is put in a learning environment (that probably feels like punishment to the perpetrator) until the perpetrator is brought to a healed state, but if they can't (and they work a long time before they give up) do that then the perpetrator might be turned over to the laws of the united states, but there are many other options those tribes tried first.

but for a society as big and as different in beliefs and as loosely joined as the american society even the bible's form of forgiveness can't be the standard because not everybody even believes the bible. because of this then forgiveness becomes a matter of personal beliefs, and if somebody is using the bible as their standard then they might want to understand that there's nothing they themselves can do to really forgive anybody, and then they might also understand that the "lord's prayer" was given to help people that had no exemplified understanding of grace to come to a place of understanding.

Jesus didn't forgive the devil, did he, for orchestrating his death? Just people.

Also, it's a matter of opinion on whether he prayed for forgiveness for all involved with his death, or just the pawns in the game carrying it out as opposed to the ruling class Judeans who orchestrated it.

really? those are very thin hairs to split, i think.

The balance between mercy and justice is one that tempts a person to play God. But we are unworthy and unqualified. We can't even save ourselves. All we can say is that God is just, and God is merciful to the repentant, of which I am trying to be.

yah. me too.

Thye song is "oh, the price He paid for you" by Dean Ellenwood, originally for Stefani Kay' s album Love Child, re-recorded by Dean for his CD God Bless You

do you know all the words to the song? i would like to know the rest of the words because i did love the song so much and it would be nice to know what i loved about it now that i know the name of the song.

Brainfixed,

He won't listen to you Brainfixed, as fundamentalist opinions like that are near impossible to overcome. As a matter of fact, this is a classic example of topical context in this thread re: forgiveness. Ie., that being the 'unforgivable sin' of being, and remaining, an atheist, by people like yours truly.

somebody on this board has a quote that says something about if your god hates the same people you do then you've created your god in your image, and i think that's what almost everybody with a god does, so i didn't think that anybody that had already made up their minds would "listen" to me because changing your mind usually takes some life changing or life threatening event before anybody can see any reason to change their minds. and so i think that's probably what jesus meant when he said "father forgive them for they know not what they do" because most human beings are stuck in their own thinking no matter what anybody (even jesus or the bible) says.

and thinking about it some more i also think that the most important part of this discussion is being left out and that's the part in the bible that says that nobody but god can know the heart of anybody else. if that's the truth then forgiveness is too personal to define it for the purpose of living it. it is too personal because as soon as somebody defines it for use with another person, then that somebody is saying they know the heart of the other person involved, and that brings the whole discussion right back to "father forgive them for they know not what to do" because that makes it god that is forgiving, which leaves the heart of "offender" in god's hands where it belongs. and also it leaves the power to forgive in god's hands, and god is the only person that can forgive if anybody is using the bible as the rule for the discussion.

now thinking about what i just said then i see clearly that "forgiveness" is being mixed up with social graces and earthly "justice" and personal well-being, and that confusion happens all the time when forgiveness is being discussed, and in the end of the discussion the whole idea of "forgiveness" hasn't got anything to do with renewing another person to a healed state, but everything to do with making a person's own self better, which isn't forgiveness at all because forgiveness is supposed to be a gift of healing for all involved no matter what a person has to do to get to that point that all involved get healed in the situation. that is the standard jesus set for his followers to rise to when he chose the path of the cross, so if anybody says they're christian then the standard of the christ would logically be the defining standard because to use any other standard wouldn't be christianity anymore.

Why indeed.

There is no explanation of forgiveness that is viable to the atheist, as far as I can see.

i'm glad you added "as far as i can see" because that is the point being made here i think, because the bible part being used here asks that we be forgiven as we forgive, so it is really very much "as far as i can see".

Debating questions of faith-based morality with an atheist is much like trying to debate the merits of Mozart with a shark.

No point.

this comparison is illogical to the discussion because it is not a valid comparison unless you think that an atheist is an animal that can not think much beyond "kill and eat", and if you do then you completely shoot down the work of the cross and the whole point of the forgiveness of god, because jesus didn't die for "born again believers" because there weren't any. can you imagine where christianity would be today if jesus had said this thing you are saying when he was hanging on the cross? instead he said "father forgive them for they know not what they do". this prayer by jesus is the "gold standard" of forgiveness.

If one does not believe in God, or any externally-based faith system, then one must fall back to belief systems that are arbitrary in origin and materialistic in nature.

Try "situational ethics".

For the devout atheist, I recommend evolutionary psychology, and human biodiversity.

Lots of fodder for those whose religion is atheism, and who bow before the altar of Darwinism...

i just can't imagine what christianity would be like if this was the response people got from jesus when coming to the cross. wait a minute, i can imagine it because i lived it while in the way international because the way international discounted the work of the cross just like is being done in these sentences.

something's wrong with my sound so i can't hear anything but after seeing the videos i'm glad i can't! when i was in everybody would have made fun of this stuff and somebody probably would have made a teaching out of the whole business for just the very reasons given here in this discussion. when the sound is off the other two songs "there's a harvest there" and "i need you, you need me" look like a lame burlesque show being done by the nursing home ladies. it's pretty gross when you know all the sex scandal stuff behind the scenes!

oh barf i watched it again! a couple of places i can just imagine they're doing that betty boop thing "boop-oop-a-boop"! barf barf barf!

i think that i'd be a little bit less "negative" and have a more "balanced" view of the way international being just another cruddy organization if it weren't for the fact that i was not given a choice about being in the mess, and if it weren't for the fact that the way international preyed on teenagers and very young adults that didn't have or even know how to have solid boundaries in life particularly concerning "ministers". i think that the biggest reason the way international shrank so rapidly was because american society was no longer a society that thought christianity was the end all be all choice of beliefs, and i think that the way international is picking up with the younger generations now is because america turned back to bible thumping bullying in the face of "islamic terrorism". society has a big impact on the thinking of the individual and the way international grew its most because "jesus people" were looking for a more stable organization, but then all the fear put into people's heads about cults and the whole jim jones and david koresh and heaven's gate and all those crazy headliners that were not just the run of the mill cult stuff where people were getting married in groups and the idea of weapons and mass violence came around and the way international people began to wake up too, but now society is back at the idea that anything non-christian is "evil" and "anti american" and "dangerous" so anything christian like but still not your daddy's religion will draw in the young people and children rebelling but not rebelling to the point of changing basic religions. well whatever i just said if it makes any sense, i think that whenever there is a situation where the already hurting and searching for answers must trust someone then there's a big difference between the way international and oh let's say a community mental health center or a group home. the laws that govern those last two are strict and firm, but the laws that govern religious organizations are loose and rarely can be applied in a "brainwashing" situation that is typical for cults. so i guess even thinking about it now i don't get how the way international can be seen as just any other cruddy organization unless it's just fanatical religious organizations being used in the comparison. maybe in another decade or so i could see the point. i don't know.

i don't remember the words except for a couple of lines that went "i'm standing today where all the winners have lost. i'm counting the blessings, they're counting the cost."

that song used to make me feel like there was going to be a day when i was all grown up and "spiritually mature" and all the cost to mind and body would have somehow turned into "the blessings" and i'd be a "winner".

it's not true! staying in the way international was the cost!

It's funny you should mention it. That is pretty darn close to what he said in CF&S when he "revealed" the "original sin".

Great insight, sir! It's not as though the man was stupid enough to say in one breath that his desire was for us to see the originals, (indicating that he had somehow seen them himself) and then turn right around and teach us that there are no originals. At least I will give the man some credit for brains.

But the real point here is that he wanted us to believe that he DID have access to the originals - not the documents themselves, but from their SOURCE - because God spoke to him often.

It's funny also that, although he taught us that we should not put our trust in men, but in God, many times he did say, "Trust ME on this one." - like he did concerning the "original sin" in CF&S.

That's about as close as one would get to saying he was as God himself, without really saying it in so many words. We are supposed to hold God in awe and esteem, and certainly VP wanted that from his followers. (And he rather expected it from the Corps!)

SPEC

:)

i wouldn't take christian family and sex class because i had heard about the animal and anal sex promoted in that class and so i figured child sex wasn't too far behind since that was in practice "in the field" and no i didn't want any more "instruction in righteousness" than i already had in one of those things so i didn't know he came out and said outright "trust me on this one". very interesting, and very interesting that it was in that class. the man was literally bragging about what he was pulling off, but he was very careful to dredge his bragging with a good coating of "biblical teaching with mathematical exactness that fit like a hand in a glove". i don't think he really meant a hand in a glove though, but that's all he could legally get away with saying.

and going off topic here for just a second, but it's really on topic because it goes along with his idea that he had somehow connected to the original, this whole idea of "reaching up into daddy's cookie jar" just scritched on my very last nerve every time i heard it! looking at it now, outside of way international speak, he was saying, "i'm such a baaaaaad little boy, aren't i? and i get away with soooooooo much!" i mean there's a reason children are not allowed to just get into the cookie jar and take how much they want whenever they want it, and that reason is because children don't know better for themselves or for anybody else, so adults have to put limits out there for them. so what he was saying was that he was a special child that had no limits and no boundaries. he was so bragging about the .... he was getting away with!

Hi again... It's moving time for my family, and in all the packing I'm going through some things that I haven't looked at for a couple years. Had great pleasure in tossing all our certificates last week: way disciple, pfal this, way of a&p that, associate of private interpretology, blah, blah, blah. Two big-arse boxes of Bible study materials--found a person on paperbackswap who donates bible study materials to people who want them. Then in the office I got to a task that I've been dreading for about 2 years and it only took me 15 minutes to do. Most of the stuff didn't require much of a decision: Calligraphy pens and ink, toss. Mint dishes, toss. Supplies for tacky homemade cards, toss. Protractor, toss (don't even know why I had that). Collection of unused fancy pens and bookmarks that complemented the studious Bible bookworm image, toss.

Hmmm...now that I'm not in a cult that preached traveling light, it seems that I can really do it.

what were the pens, mint dishes and other stuff for?