brainfixed

oh yes geisha it is very subtle and that's what i mean when i say that i didn't even know about the stuff that got into my head and how i am now understanding how people got sucked in, and i say "sucked" in instead of "drawn" in because i am "drawn" to things that are decent but i am "sucked" by things that are not, it's just a thing i use to separate things in my head and i don't expect anybody to agree with me or even understand me because it's just for me and my head. and this whole thing about faith is a very interesting discussion because as i grow up i learn that what i had "faith" in had very little to do with a "god" or anything "spiritual" and had mostly to do with what is "clinically" called "magical thinking" or in every day terms something like "santa claus" or "cinderella" thinking and it goes something like "if i'm good enough then i will get ______" or "when the right _______ comes along then my life will be happy and whole". and the basis of the thinking is that i somehow control how everything turns out in this world, and that just isn't so by a long shot. so to me real faith is understanding that there may not be anything "out there" at all, but that the "miracle" is how something as lowly and easily killed off as all the species here on earth has even survived, and all the balances and all the nuances it took to even have life in the first place or even have a planet or two that would support life, and this satisfies me that there must be something way too big to even comprehend. and i prefer to have my faith in something i cannot comprehend because if i can even begin to comprehend something, then it no longer is something i should have faith in because if i can comprehend it, then it is no better than me! so the whole figuring out god stuff is bs!

Wasnt there one of those in Bullingers Companion Bible from about 1900?

I was hoping the thread was going to include a comprehensive list of God names ( Shiva, Mithras, Krisna, Brahma, Freya, Ganesha, Gaia, Isis, Odin, Kukulcan, Quetzecoatl,Zeus,Maia,Vishnu etc etc etc....Heck even an old standby like Allah has 99 names all by his own self --imo that would be an interesting project

Most of the "top dog" ones more or less have all the same attributes no matter what culture they came from....

this made me laugh because i am currently reading "ancient evenings" by norman mailer.

now back on topic, are you talking about the list that included "el shaddai"? i used to invoke "el shaddai" as the "strong arm of god" all the time hoping against hope for protection. dammm the things that are in my head!

Missing It and Hyper-vigilance

"God always tells you but you don't always listen" so it's your fault you didn't see the low tire that caused the accident.The Christ in you saw the low tire and told you but you weren't in fellowship. That's why you didn't notice. Either you were "believing to have an accident" or you were "not believing to hear the small still voice". It all comes down to "you".

Better do a "check-up from the neck-up", Mister, if you ever want to lead God's people. Gotta get "sharp as a meatball and twice as juicy " if you're ever going to outsmart the old adversary. You better get your nose back into PFAL, speak in tongues "like a house afire", rework those retemory cards and stay on-guard at all times 'cause the adversary is like a lion roaming the streets, just waiting to pounce on you at any moment.

***************************************

Of course, after hearing this speech for the umteenth time, you didn't really need anyone to actually give it to you. You could give it to yourself .

Never mind the fact that you'd been up half the night working on some half-baked ministry assignment and it was very dark where the car was parked. That would just be seeing it from a "senses realm" perspective.

yah that's the whole rub of it all is that in the end there just isn't enough energy to keep up the hypervigilence and sooner or later the body is going to give out even if the mind wants to keep it up, but even the mind has to rest, and some therapists are looking at the possibility that some of what has been diagnosed as "bi-polar" might really be the extreme ends of the hypervigilence cycle where one end is the collapse (physical and mental) of sheer exhaustion and the other end is the extreme energy after coming out of such a collapse. it's something i tried to express here at "the cafe" before and i couldn't get it out right or something, and i see that bolshevik is having a similar difficult time, but staying involved in the way international was pretty much because people were either hostages (like us children that had no choice) or were not thinking well for one reason or another. i am not saying that people were mentally ill! what i am saying is that the way international would not be considered a "cult" if it did not practice mental and emotional and spiritual and physical and sexual abuses, and people would not have stayed around if they were not caught in the cycles of those abuses until they felt safe enough to get the heII out.

i'm editing to also say that from a kid's point of view, an adult had to be pretty screwed up to voluntarily join the way international. most of the kids i knew saw right through most of the bs and we could not understand why the adults didn't. but now that i've grown up a little bit and seen how the bs stuck in my head without me even knowing it, i can also see some of how the adults got sucked in.

So, in essence, it means that, even though something may be too trivial for your own ears to pick up, it's supposedly possible for the "Christ in you"'s ears to pick it up. This concept was applied to all five senses. Now, what people would do is observe something they assumed was beyond the realm of ordinary observation and deduce that this was the small still voice of revelation from God.Here's an example. Suppose you are preparing meat that has a slightly "off" odor. Naturally, this MUST be God "telling you" that the meat is spoiled. I'm sure you can think of a multitude of similar examples.

there are other places on this discussion that talk about something similar and this is called "hypervigilence" and is seen a lot in abuse survivors as a coping mechanism to try and keep themselves safe from the next attack by seeing the warning signs before the attack actually happens so they can hide or try to ward off the attack in some way or deflect it. hypervigilence serves its purpose when trying to survive but when it's practiced in non-survival situations it interferes with normal living and can make things so difficult as not to be able to function without the constant threat of danger, which is part of the woes of those that suffer with ptsd. the "reading" of people and situations is quite common not only to abuse survivors, but to con artists too, like "fortune" tellers and "psychics", and even to every day people like sales people and law enforcement people that need to be one step ahead of others, or even politicians and community organizers or anybody, really, that stands out as a leader of people in some way, they "read" people and situations all the time whether they realize it or not. it's not a great "spiritual" thing at all and is really a very "senses" thing to do in the end. and the "still small voice" is something i learned in therapy to recognize as my own inner voice, which is why it was never 100% right. well, duh. how many stories of people waiting for a voice, or even voices, ended up very good? even the bible examples didn't end up very good if you look at them without the magical thinking glasses on. so what i learned in therapy to do was to teach myself to think better so that when i needed to do better, i could. i really like what dr phil says about luck being preparation meeting opportunity. and if you read the bible in its essence as a whole and not in its pieces as a "literal according to translation" interpretation according to some yay who, then you will see that basically the bible says to grow up, get wisdom, work out your own salvation, and have a little faith that the universe does not revolve around you.

out of pure stupid curiosity i watched the jesse ventura program "conspiracy theories" and what a load of stuff that sounded just like way international stuff! the episode i watched was all about the "biderberger" group (i think that's what it was). the climax of the whole hour (yes i stupidly watched the whole hour) was that through forcing people to get the h1n1 vaccinations this group was going to not only destroy the human immune system to the point that 9/10s of the world (yes, the program insisted it was going to be the world) population would die off, the survivors would be sterile. well dang. i guess the program hasn't gotten the memo that the h1n1 vaccines aren't getting out like they were supposed to get out. oh and i guess the program also didn't get the memo that the h1n1 pandemic didn't happen. but the whole message of the show was not to trust the health care system at all and ventura had this "doctor" flown in from "someplace in panama" for a "brief standing only" visit in the united states on a tarmac "located somewhere in the midwest" so this "doctor" wouldn't be identified and snatched up by united states officials that are part of this biderberger group and hauled somewhere and shut up. well this "doctor" didn't look so healthy herself and she was obese and gray looking and i could tell she was a smoker, but she proclaimed that she treated "heads of state" in her "drug free clinic" located "somewhere in panama". it just reminded me so much of all the hush hush secrecy surrounding the movements of "leadership" if and when "the adversary" was on the move to "get them", and does anybody remember the "green life" stuff? what i remember was my mom making me take like 5 or 6 pills before i ate anything so that i wouldn't eat as much because those pills would swell up in my stomach and i could live on that granola cereal for days and days without having to eat anything else, but boy oh boy did i fart and belch! but it seems like all the same stuff from all the same not so good thought processes.

good thinking stuff here and thanks a lot for the input, but please remember that "mental ill health" is not the same as "mentally ill" no more than being "hiv positive" is the same as having full blown aids, and there are things such as "situational" anxieties and "situational" depressions much like there are "situational" reactions like if you're allergic to shell fish and go out and eat a big shrimp dinner. and also try to remember not to rip at each other when replying here because even though i might say "us" and "we" i'm really not so dumb as to think "everybody" had the same reaction or the same thoughts or the same results as i did.

The maker of the heavens and the earth. . . . was our own personal GPS in TWI. . . Lord ,do I take a right on Elm or a left? Which laundry detergent do I buy? Oh .. . and can you bless me with a good parking space for my rusted bucket of bolts that is unsafe to drive?

yah it's like being in preschool or something and playing "mother may i" or something. it's kind of hit me square in the face why it took me so long to learn self determination but here the answer is right here on greasespot cafe and it's because i was raised in a cult that led people into a brain habit that made us think we had to have somebody or something holding our hand for every little thing like walking to kindergarten or somebody or something was going to get us and get us good and dead if we didn't tweak our brains and our habits just so and like this and i'm surprised we didn't have to all wear tin foil hats or something!

ok this is kind of making me mad because i can look back now and see where my brain started baking off in the bad directions now and boy oh boy i can really pinpoint it right to the way international!

this is a spin off discussion from the "plan the adversary out of your life" discussion, and it came around to geisha saying

I have sometimes wondered if that whole *revelation* thing coupled with SIT didn't set some of us up for some sort of mental illness later in life. . . . . listening for voices in our head, hearing them, doing what they say. . . . . or blanking out instead of engaging in what is going on around us. . . . not everyone. . .but, it may have contributed to problems some have.

I remember reading something from JAL about knowing the difference between Jesus' voice and God's voice speaking to him. . . . that is two voices right there.

and i replied

"listening for voices in our head, hearing them, doing what they say. . . . . or blanking out instead of engaging in what is going on around us"

"I remember reading something from JAL about knowing the difference between Jesus' voice and God's voice speaking to him. . . . that is two voices right there."

i'm no professional therapist or anything but i wouldn't think these things are mentally healthy things to practice.

a couple of others made some pretty funny replies.

but anyway here's the thing that geisha got me thinking about is did the way international lead us into mental ill health?

so that brings up a whole nother topic doesn't it? i think i'll start one.

"listening for voices in our head, hearing them, doing what they say. . . . . or blanking out instead of engaging in what is going on around us"

"I remember reading something from JAL about knowing the difference between Jesus' voice and God's voice speaking to him. . . . that is two voices right there."

i'm no professional therapist or anything but i wouldn't think these things are mentally healthy things to practice.

after this discussion and the last two i just responded to i am beginning to wonder if "doc vic" was like a neo nazi or something? seriously this stuff sounds like he was trying for a "super race" or something.

this discussion makes me think of a novel i recently read titled "i know this much is true" by wally lamb. it's about identical twin brothers, one that is paranoid schizophrenic and the other that is trying to take care of him, and is told from the voice of the caretaker brother. very interesting stuff when it comes to comparisons to the way international because the mentally ill brother says so many things that are so much like what was said and repeated and taught often in the way international and are like this discussion right now, and how the caretaker brother tries to make sense of it all. good read if anybody is interested, and it's quite interesting to the whole discussion about the "adversary" and what is and is not "devilish" or at cellular or molecular or genetic levels or "spiritual" levels.

something i am finding out now that i am "over 30" is that when i wasn't "over 30" it all seemed like such a good idea to "change the world" with a "new, improved" vision of things and when i read discussions like this one and i see how "doc vic" used young people to do his dirty work i get to thinking about how society as a whole uses young people to do its dirty work, and i even think of other religious groups and nowadays how every "non-denominational" religious group is run by people barely in their twenties thinking they are going to "change the world" with some "new, improved" vision of things. there's this one church that i used to go to because it was so "hip" and "with it" and the pastors were young and "alive" (meaning about my age) but now they're still about my age and have children and out of college and they've done everything the "old timers" we were so disgusted with had done like begged for more tithes and offerings, made bigger boards with more "suitable" board members (in other words, more "old timers" with more money to invest in programs) and are even shunning those "off beats" that helped them start the church because they don't pay tithes and offerings as much as others do. so what i'm trying to say is that i think "doc vic" picked up on the same old idea that if you want to start a movement, get the kids to do it and then you can dump them once they're used up. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that's a good thing or that i agree with it at all, but i'm just saying he was hardly the first or the only con man to run this particular con.

oh, waysider, it isn't wisdom but pure fear because there's been times i was too messed up to think straight enough or even move well enough to work so i'm afraid to go back to those dark places! and belle i would be torn if i was looking forward to seeing my living brother and had to miss him but he called me every name in the book except my own for christmas for too many years so i just skip talking to him if i can but he found me on the internet and did it again this year, so i wish he was working or something, and my legs aren't really strong but i keep them working as best i can and they're doing me pretty good so it's a real gift when they keep me going all day. i'm glad your job is good, too. oakspear those are such nice things to get for christmas!

ok this is kind of a grumpy thing and kind of not but i've heard enough complaining about this so i thought i'd just say something here where nobody knows me really and then it's out of my system and i won't go off in a bad temper and maybe with the humor that i see around here i can be out of my bad temper.

so what i got for christmas was to be able to work, but i'm glad i was able to work, you know? and i got to wake up in the morning, and i'm glad i was able to wake up in the morning. and i got to walk around on two good legs all day, and i'm glad i was able to walk around on two good legs all day. and then i got stuck after running off the road coming down a steep hill in the ice but i'm glad i had a car that i was able to get stuck in. do you see where i'm going with this? i don't do family during the holidays and i usually do friends but this christmas i worked and i heard a bunch of really bad grumbling and complaining and a lot of people just didn't come to work so it made twice as much or more work for us that did come to work but who cares really because at least we have a job and the ability to work and a place to go home to once we're off work and all that. ok so now i'm done.

I could only describe the time immediately after I left as a free fall. Guess that's the price for being involved in a cult.

it was a few years after i left that i figured out that i was having problems from leaving because i couldn't wait to get out and had planned my escape for what felt like my whole life because i was a kid and it was my "coming of age" thing so i was leaving home as much as i was leaving the way international and with the abuse and all i was "free" finally, and i always knew the way international was bad news and when i first heard the word "cult" and understood what it meant then i knew the way international was a cult, but like i said, it was a few years before i realized that i had actually be "in" myself. once i realized that, then the "free fall" for me was thinking i'd never ever be fixed but end up like my mother and brothers and sisters, and i did the "free fall" for a few years before i got any help.

i think that because people mix religion with government that people don't get that in america "marriage" is a legally binding contractual agreement so that even if they think they're doing some romantic religious thing "before god" in a church and taking vows that say something like "love, honor and cherish, in sickness and in health, for better and for worse, until death do us part", well then those are legally binding words that if brought into a court of law the "injured party" can clean out bank accounts and get ahold of other financial assests, make the "injuring party" pay off marital debts, get long term support not only for children but for the "injured party", and bring things back into court over and over again depending on the longevity of the marriage. i work in a field that deals with this all of the time and maybe older people think the "no fault" divorces really are "no fault" but nowadays since public assistance is so limited and so hard to get and state budgets are going to hell in a hand basket i see it all the time when the "injured party" is "counseled" to find fault, document fault, how to "trigger" fault, stay in the marriage for as long as possible so that certain laws will kick in (changing from state to state) for the best "benefits" of divorce, what to do, where to go, what to say and what documentation to have ready when the "injured party" is ready to make a move and all that. i am always seeing that divorces nowadays are so often up to 5 years in the planning by the "injured party". be very very careful before you take a vow "before god" because in america those are legally binding words and the courts don't very much like to look at the religious end of things because there's a whole other world that says "freedom of religion" means that two consenting adults were of legal age and legal wherewithal to know what they were getting into, so unless one or both of the marrying partners were minors, the argument that the "before god" vows were taken while in a cult and the "before god" part was distorted to the point of not understanding will not usually fly.

Yeah, those darn administrations seem to get in the way at the most inconvenient times, don't they?

yah, and you said it first and i seconded it, and i think the vote is in that no matter how you dice and chop up the bible, the man was no "man of god" and any "revelation" he "received" was probably a filling in one of his teeth tuned to a very bad "madtv" version of the "twilight zone" and he probably needed to be on seroquel or something similar to shut up those voices in his head and shut down those hallucinations and tame those delusions of grandeur. and probably some healthy doses of salt peter wouldn't have hurt, either. (yes i know that salt peter is an explosive but can't a girl have some fun?)

edited to add that i looked it up and salt peter is an additive to explosives and some say it was used to stop the hornies in the military and some say it wasn't and others say maybe so maybe no but whatever it is used in toothpaste and ice cream and the possible side affects are cancer and reproductive problems, so i still say some salt peter couldn't have hurt.

i vote for "lewd fellow of the basor sort" as written in the old testament and don't get why the old testament is "written to us" for this and for tithing and multiple sex partners but not "written to us" when it says "do not commit adultery". :wacko:

i don't think i will ever get married because i don't want to ever make a vow that i feel i might have to break because i saw what "the vow" did to my brothers and my sisters when they went wow or corps and they couldn't break "the vow" even when they knew they were serving men not god, so i get it from the outside looking in about "the vow" and it is sad and i hate it that "lewd fellows of the basor sort" tied my family up into such a vow!

even though my head knows that my family was going to be my family with or without the way international i can't help but to wonder if it would have gotten so bad if it weren't for the way international because my mom was at one time somebody i could turn to but then she got deep into way indoctrination and became somebody that was my worst enemy in the end because she turned against her own children if it meant choosing the way international or her children, and the same thing with my brother and my sisters. so i can't say i miss my family but i can say i miss what my might have been given a different chance at things, but even that is a "what if" fantasy because i'll never know for sure if it was way indoctrination or their basic nature.

i think that what hiway and waysider are saying are on the mark with this because there is a whole big difference between helping people find their own potentials and turning people into what you think they should be, which is why i have such a problem with most religions, corporations, pacs, unions, or whatever you can name that have their own agendas and just need bodies to do their labor and bring in the cash.

i've been so afraid to say anything in this discussion because i know there's nothing i can really say except that here i am (and many more than me) rooting for you. i like the things you write about roy and you're so brave so much and sometimes i wish i could just play superman for you or something but i know and you know that can't happen or isn't even realistic, but you're doing good holding on and hanging in from what i can see and i hope you keep doing it because you're like a lighthouse on some dark and stormy seas more often than you would ever guess and i'll bet for more people than could or would ever say so, and i thank you.

i love this topic! it really is that simple!

well i'm glad i'm not ex way corps because i wouldn't be able to "talk nicey nicey" particularly if i ran into some certain people because i'd want to take them through some "trenches" and see if we "bonded" afterwards.

edited to say that this discussion got a whole lot deeper than i thought it would get for me and i'm not threatening any violence towards anybody but i'm speaking sarcastically and i use words to express myself but i'm not even that good with words.