OldSkool

4 hours ago, Modgellan said:

Yes, there is a thread here:

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25187-craig-has-his-own-offshoot-going-on/

 

Im not surprised. Unless one really can get honest about a lot of things I wouldnt expect anyone to change. Its all he knows to do...same with other offshoots.

26 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Thought I liked this yesterday. Apparently not. Damn these gloves!

He was such a Bishop. 
 

just…

 

…. mmmph.

Oh man...twi is the land of reverends, doctors, and an occasional bishop...those suckers love titles and love demanding adoration based on said titles....

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

1. not looking past all of wierwille’s shortcomings 

and

2. Going in the way corps and following the man of god’s exact orders.

1. I mean...its those exact shortcomings he nurtured, hid, and lusted for his entire ministry. One has to ignore to make it fit because if one acknowledges them and believes what the Bible says then it become quite obvious he was a wolf in sheeps clothing.

2. But...but...its the way corps that messed everything up...didnt ya know? 

5 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

oh…I’m sorry - just trying to remember why I was supposed to trust and believe wierwille. 

I dunno...you'll have to ask Mike.

9 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

This is demonstrably, objectively true. I would add Hebrew and Latin to the list of languages he simply didn’t understand. Anyone who is curious or doubtful of this observable fact can find out for themselves.

Language skills are sadly lacking among every demographic in this country, even among our educators. I am constantly correcting the poorly written documents my son brings home from school.

 

 

It also is telling way publications had to rework all of his printed publications to take his crazy claims out, sanitize his rants, and hide his lacking command of languages.

1 hour ago, Twinky said:

Where did he get that rubbish phrase anyway?

I can appreciate that a trained physicist might feel that way.  But vpw?  If his maths skills were anything like as good as his English skills - well, hahahaha.  The man didn't understand English, neither words nor grammar.  (Let alone Greek or Aramaic, what a joke.)

That has to be another phrase that this thief stole from some more worthy person.

Not sure where he got it from but it was nothing more than a sales pitch.

50 minutes ago, waysider said:

Well, there ya go.

 I mean who could possibly know more about it than a guy born in India 2000 years later?

Dude he was a Bishop...

14 minutes ago, Mike said:

Yes, it would be.

Bishop Pillai taught that the word for snake or serpent should be translated or thought of as "enchanter."    Some snakes are amazing enchanters; just look at National Geographic.   Hence, the downward spiral of Renaissance Art depicting a snake and an apple, corrupting people's mental imagery for centuries.

Lucifer was created to be astoundingly beautiful; he charmed one third of God's angels. Our mind picture of Genesis should have in it an enchanting beauty deceiving Eve, not a slithering snake. 

Who in the actual eff are you to say what the Bible should say? Just open the dang thing and read it. It says snake and is obviously figurative and it says snake for a reason. Those twisted wierwillian re-intrepretations of scripture dont fly outside of TWI. 

37 minutes ago, Mike said:

Jesus would not speak a parable that would mislead his audience.

The Gospels document that the people loved Jesus' parables.  Meditate a little on that.

Meditate a little on this:

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

43 minutes ago, Rocky said:

I'm confident (as a former accountant) if twi WANTED to take care of Dorothea, medically and financially, they could have gotten around it.

I mean, it's really revealing when you think about it....revealing especially when considering the directors efforts with GSC.

3 minutes ago, WordWolf said:

Considering there's no question about rosa-lie getting free lawncare, boat care and housekeeping by twi staffers, I'm sure a little creative accounting would have covered for someone who needed vital services - who was so integral to twi's history. 

 

There was no question about twi not covering anything.  In fact, when she was being ushered off-grounds to an elder-care facility,

the news broke here.

All over past and current twi membership, suddenly all heck broke loose. 

All anyone could talk about WAS how twi threw Mrs W out in the street, or things along those lines.

 

Things got so out-of-control that twi contacted the GSC admin and insisted they be allowed to tell their side of the story, and have something posted by them ON THE GSC to settle this. 

 

I SWEAR I'm not making ANY of this up.

No sir you are not making any of this up. I was front and center for all of this when I was at HQ. In fact, unfortunately, Im the one who found her after she had fallen by the circle in back of the EOB when she was out walking. I saw her fall, called for help, and stayed with her until they arrived. She was somewhat lucid but very confused as to what was happening with her or even why I insisted (very gently) that she remain in a comfortable position on the ground until ERT arrived. I never saw her again and was a pallbearer at her funeral.

TWI is correct in that they legally cannot provide healthcare but are dead butt wrong for shuffling all her expenses onto her family and washing their hands of her. That was Rosalie all the way with a lot of consenting voices as usual. All heck broke out around HQ with the rumors and such. 

Just for the sake of accuracy, Ros-a-lie did pay for lawn care after the lawyers came through and educated them on running a cult legally but before that absolutely paid nothing. She paid a ridicouloously low price to have an entire 5 man mowing crew pull up with zero turn mowers and take care of her estate. But it was a paper trail that proved she wasnt taking private innurements. And I mean ridicoulsly low btw, so they failed the private innurement test on that note as you are supposed to pay market rate.

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

So victor himself didn’t make arrangements for her care? He didn’t provide for her? Couldn’t he have made a 3x5 card to remind himself to do this basic thing with the spoils of his grift?

What a mean man!

 

Everywhere you look there is a sign. Victor was NOT a THE man of god. Not even an A man of god. 

Im not sure if he did or didnt, or that if he did, the way international could legally honor whatever arrangement he may have made. I do know they took it as an excuse to pawn her medical expenses off on her family.

17 hours ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Why would a former minister of TWI, one who seems to be M&A, feel compelled to provide for Mrs. Wierwille’s medical bills? Why would there be a perceived need at all? I get that he didn’t file the suit for personal gain, but of all charities!

Of the $millions victor extracted  from his dupes, was there no provision for Mrs. W’s care into old age?

Really? WTAF?

 

No...no provision. He expected the way international to care for her and since they aren't health care providers, legally they could not care for her. They used this legality an excuse to not cover any of her expenses either. They left that burden on the family. Thus, McMullen's charitable actions.

9 minutes ago, cman said:

And who is God, who is the serpent? What are they? Where are they? The garden of Eden, a state of mind?

That's on you. Peace.

19 hours ago, cman said:

The serpent was right You shall not surely die

Which would make God a liar. Is that what u mean to say?

1 hour ago, penworks said:

I prefer calling VPW what he was: a sexual predator, a cavalier plagarist, an abuser of naive followers.

It's good to keep this front and center. The way international has spent a couple decades polishing VPW tarnished image.

3 minutes ago, chockfull said:

I think I see why God is “on a budget”.  Pretty much all of the discussion centers around the warm fuzzy idea of “having a package” that helps you live as a disciple or mature Christian.

This supposed “package” is Plaffy and int Plaffy and the secretary notes bound into 5 volumes plus the stolen RHST and PLAF books.

This “package” is supposed to help “new people” that we are working with and somehow without the “package” we are unable to minister to new Christians.

The reality is the “package” is the same kind of deal they sell in Scientology with the reprinted works of LRH.  An all inclusive ticket to “enlightenment” of some kind called different things - going clear, true discipleship, being “an ambassador” a really prestigious title for a youngster.

The reality is that without “the package” you have all of Christianity to draw upon and all of the body of Christ groups in a local area and the teachings of many with a wide and varied educational background to include degrees in Bible languages.

But all of those involve free thought, prayer and collaboration.  All of those things disengage when you dumb your mind down to “the package”.  Because everyone just says go back to the package standard and you will be “blessed”.  I mean you may receive superficial attaboys from a leader but not a real lasting solution that matters in life.

The bondage of false teaching is what limits God to only one way of looking things to a certain solution or approach.

I mean the whole gist of this conversation is a golden calf apologist trying to convince others that since the calf is simple and easy to understand you should worship the calf.  Or the VP statue.  Or the VP “package” which basically focuses the attention on the content and not the “package” of the author himself as that is a fail.  
 

 

Well said, sir.

11 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

I thought Mounce’s reference to Colossians 2:2 NIV was in reference to the Mystery of Christ.

The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.” Daniel 2:47

 

I think dispensationalist theology may inadvertently fragment the Mystery of Christ. Some commentaries explain that the Ephesians 3 Mystery of Christ  was not as obvious  before Pentecost:

4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 

The OT writers, in fact,  did know about it  and referred to it again and again like in Genesis 22:18 ,  Psalm 72 , Isaiah 11:10 , Hosea 1:10 , and Malachi 1:11  to cite just a few.

“What these prophets did not make clear was the connection with the coming of the Messiah and the outpouring of the Spirit the old theocracy would be completely abolished and in its place would arise a new organism in which the Gentiles and the Jews would be placed on a footing of perfect equality”…from Exposition of Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon by William Hendriksen page 154.

If you look up the NT scholar William Hendriksen you might read about his influential work Israel and Prophecy, written a year after the 1967 war, and still in print, Hendriksen criticized the view, held by dispensationalists and Christian Zionists, that the Bible prophesies the return and restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel. Dispensationalist pastor Barry Horner describes Hendriksen's work as "a classic representation of replacement theology". Personally, I don’t have a dog in this fight on dispensations, no dispensations, Pez Dispensers. I imagine God looks at groups, sects, religions and such a lot differently than we do anyway – and I’m becoming more of an inclusive kind of guy than exclusive.

~ ~ ~ ~

There’s an approximately 34 minute You Tube video by Dr. Michael Heiser that addresses a few details mentioned on this thread video is here  >  Prophecy and Eschatology: the Rapture by Michael S. Heiser  - Heiser points out a problem with 1 Corinthians 15 NIV   and   Revelation 20 NIV . Heiser asks of 1 Corinthians 15:54 is this the final victory over death. If you say “yes” then what about Revelation 20:14 this is the final judgement – after the “second coming” – this is the place and time when death is finally destroyed. Heiser says Paul’s statement in I Cor. 15:54   conceptually   links to an event after the “second coming”. He also asks how literal do we interpret words like “air” and “clouds” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 .

You might enjoy the video simply as an ex-TWI-follower (recalling wierwille’s 4 crucified mishmash of Scripture) - for taking another look at how to interpret a wide range of NT Scripture about the return of Jesus Christ – they do not all agree in every detail. Heiser asks “Are you a splitter or a joiner?” There is no cosmic law saying you must interpret a passage as a splitter of topics or  a joiner of topics. In other words, do these 2 separate passages refer to 2 different things or to the same thing?

…I’m still trying to wrap my head around this stuff since I’ve gotten into a lot of Heiser’s work – so I’m not going to butcher the gist of everything – but this video and another text series Eschatology Series - Dr. Michael Heiser (drmsh.com) it appears Heiser does not believe in a rapture – and from what I gather he’s more of a “joiner” on Scripture about the 2^nd coming of Christ.

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

Some sad news about Michael S. Heiser – he passed away in February 2023. May he rest in peace.

Thanks, I'll check it out!

12 minutes ago, chockfull said:

Yes this all makes me wonder if the whole mystery concept is a consolidation of all of these different time periods with their rules into one standard overall that applies to all no matter the time origin or ethnic origin.

Jews and Gentiles merging into one.  Pre and post tribulation Christians merging into one.  

And then eventually all just one world and new heaven and earth that is not as complicated as this one.

Yes most commentaries are not focused on “The Great Mystery” like we were in Plaffy.

I guess to me it isn’t as much hype as VP jumped around about.  It’s like eventually the justice system will be fair, expedient and functional.  Cool.  

Maybe I’m under reacting.

That is in part what the mystery is all about. That man made after the first Adam would be redeemed and made a-new after the last Adam Jesus Christ. So, yes, all will be summed as one new man under the same just laws of God almighty.

Wierwille tried to make it all about Christ in you and that power was to be tapped like a spiritual keg to bring abundance. Lies.

9 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Don't think I can agree with you on this, Sky.

Pharisees were basically a political sect, but rooted in their interpretation of Mosaic law, with lots of other philosophy and received wisdom overlaying.  By and large, they appear to have been well familiar with the scriptures (OT) and wanted to promote adherence to them.  They wanted to preserve the way they thought things should be.  It seems likely that they did, in fact, adhere (wrongly) to their religious beliefs.

In contrast, VPW didn't appear to have any religious beliefs.  He knew as much Bible as he needed to, to fool people, and codged together a set of "beliefs" from whatever he could find that seemed to suit his own agenda.  He didn't want to preserve anything; he wanted to break everything - and everyone.

He did share some things with Pharisees, though.  Both he and they were Johnny-come-lately, of no importance (rather, in fact, hindrances) in God's plan for humankind, and are irrelevant to life today.

Morning. Pharisees promoted adherence to their oral traditions that they said interpreted the Torah, which is what Jesus Christ confronted as the traditions of men, etc. So they were religious and political. Eventually, they developed the Babylonian Talmud based on their oral traditions.

Wierwille and the way international promote their own traditions over scripture, all that proven ministry research given to let the Bible intrepret itself...snark..so there are parallels although limited parallels.

8 hours ago, T-Bone said:

 

Hey OldSkool,

just wanted to share some pertinent information to your posts…I thought you might get a kick out of the NICNT by Mounce mentioning the book of Enoch…The book of Revelation is one of my 7 favorite books of the Bible – I’ve got a pretty good selection of commentaries by various scholars with differing viewpoints – but I don’t want to give the impression to anyone I’m an expert on Revelation…rather I key off a question or point someone makes on Grease Spot – probably triggers something I’ve read and reread many times before...That's one of the things I like about Grease Spot Cafe - the give and take of it all...I like how the input of others helps me to focus and organize and reorganize all this stuff that I read. Maybe someday it will all make sense to me! 

…I think these excerpts might help sort out a couple of things…maybe not   …anyway…I quote Revelation 10: 5 – 7 first, because the commentaries draw some on the buildup to 7 …so here goes:

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”… Revelation 10 NIV

 

~ ~ ~ ~

 

On page 206ff of The Book of Revelation (The NICNT) by Robert Mounce it says this of Rev.10:7:

The proclamation of the mighty angel is that there shall be no further delay, but with the sounding of the seventh trumpet the hidden purpose of God will be accomplished. The NKJ translation, “when he is about to sound,” could be taken to mean the mystery of God will be completed before the sounding of the seventh trumpet. What the angel is saying, however, is that within that period of time to be introduced by the seventh trumpet blast the mystery of God will be brought to completion.

A great deal of attention has been given to the meaning of “the mystery of God.” In Col. 2:2 the exact phrase is used to refer to Christ, in whom are hidden the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. The idea of mystery was important in apocalyptic thought. Mysteries were secrets preserved in heaven and revealed to the enraptured apocalyptist ( 1 Enoch 71:3ff.; also 40:2: 46:2).

An eschatological orientation is always present in the NT use of the word. In Rom. 11:25 the final destiny of Israel is a “mystery.” The “mystery” of 1 Cor. 15:55 is the change that will overtake the believer at Christ’s return. In 2 Thess.2:7 the “mystery of lawlessness” (RSV) that is at present restrained will soon be fully revealed and at the coming of Christ will be destroyed.

The mystery of God in Rev. 10:7 shares this apocalyptic coloring and refers to the purpose of God as revealed in the consummation of human history…

…The drama has now moved to that moment immediately preceding the final scene. From this point on, the Apocalypse becomes a multidimensional presentation of the final triumph of God over evil. Any attempt to arrange the material in a strictly sequential pattern is doomed to failure. From his vantage point on the brink of eternity John unveils the evil forces that operate behind the scenes of history and in the last days will mount a final and furious assault upon the faithful (12:12, 17).

End of excerpts

~ ~ ~ ~

And pages 313ff of New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Book of Revelation by Simon J. Kistemaker notes of Rev. 10:7

We would have expected the seventh angel to blow his trumpet to introduce the series of seven plagues. This is not the case here, because John is writing only a preliminary reference to this event and not the event itself, which will take place in 11:15. With this reference he tells the reader to wait until he has completed the writing of his interlude that describes the task of God’s people on earth.

In other words, the blowing of the seventh trumpet will not occur immediately during or after John’s lifetime. When the trumpet sounds, the days of the end have arrived and are made visible by several visions. The trumpet blast announces the message that the end is at hand and the consummation of this age is near. And when this trumpet is heard, the second woe belongs to the past (11:14). The third woe encompasses the judgment (11:15b – 19)…

…The events take place in the future, at the time when the mystery of God will be accomplished. Interestingly, whereas in the translation the future tense of the verb   to accomplish   is used, the Greek text shows the past tense. In Greek the past tense has a futuristic connotation that should be understood not from the author’s point of view but from God’s eventual fulfillment. When the delay has run its course (v.6), the trumpet of the seventh angel will sound and God will cause his mysterious plan to become a reality. When this trumpet sounds, the time has come for God and his Christ to rule the kingdom of the world and to judge the dead (11:15 – 18). The cry of the souls under the altar asking for judgement will be fulfilled on the Judgement Day (6:10; 20: 11 – 15), and the blowing of the seventh trumpet is a sign of that day.

End of excerpts

I disagree with the commentaries in that they do not cite the mystery of God. 

Ephesians 3:3-6

How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

There are many mysteries in scripture but only one "the mystery of God". Then there are mysteries within mysteries...

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So, to me it's problematic for dispensationalist theology when Revelation is supposed to be to another administration (it clearly is not) and in Revelation 10:7 we have a last trump about to sound that concludes the mystery of God. Am I decisive on anything yet....no....I appreciate you taking the time to post the commentaries, thanlks. Ive been looking at Rev 10:7 for at least three years now and havent found a commentary yet that handles the mystery that is revealed in the Church epistles.

34 minutes ago, chockfull said:

The Revelation chapter 6 stuff is interesting.  With respect to the timing of all that I think that period of time is post gathering together.

The end times timing throughout there describes tribulations befalling the end times believers and the periods involved.  

Also there seems to be a preparation period for the final battle then the battle itself.

The third heaven and earth would be post apocalyptic.

Its not readily apparent to me what the seals represent but they could have a temporal aspect meaning a period of time or series of events that occur to open the seal.

The white robe also seems to be obscured at the moment - perhaps it would take the opening of the 5th seal for the meaning to become fully known…

Some thoughts.

Then we come across Revelation 10:7

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Is this the last trump? If so it presents all kinds of problems to dispensationalism and our understanding of God's timing and the entire book of Revelation for that matter.

9 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

The Enoch scrolls fell out of the bookcase when Timothy hit a bump on the road to meet up with Paul

shoulda just brought the cloak like requested....

32 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I realize there’s a lot of symbolism going on here with the souls under the altar…But beyond that – why does it say these souls were given a white robe and told to wait a little longer? Is there a double meaning? Is the white robe temporary housing for the soul? Just a thought.

Interesting. Well, I've been reading the Book of Enoch which was removed from the canon and it shouldn't have been. It's quoted copiously through the new testament. It gives detail on the the subject but I'm not to that part quit yet....more later...good thoughts though...have my attention 4 sure.

If the dead are alive then why do we need a gathering together and two ressurrections? Are we ressurecting living people?