soul searcher

I certainly don't need some religious nutcase sharing his/her necro-destiny with me. We live and we die. I have no control over "spiritual matters"...If there's a God, that's his thing...not mine...I'm too busy trying to pay my bills and keep the trains running on time in my world.

Necro-destiny? LOL Did you coin that term?

Anyway, it appears that there are a few agnostics, atheists and non-believers among you ex-Wayers. Interesting. My ex-Way friend still clings to all the tired Way doctrine she absorbed over 25 years.

I've seen other people go through the same thing and come out believing that there is no God.. I can't exactly say the same. I just can't define Him or Her or What in my or anyone else's terms any more.. nor do I feel an inclination to do so..

I guess that depends somewhat on the direction one's life takes. I didn't give God much thought until recently, but at this point in my life I want to "get right with God" (to quote Lucinda Williams).

now.. as far as "are you still searching for the truth"..

I found it once. No, not in way days..

stone, cold sober, I looked it in the face for about .95 seconds.. and it nearly burned my skin off.. funny, it didn't really hurt..

what if you found EVERYTHING you believed to be totally WRONG..

Interesting. Is that what was revealed to you? That everything you believed was wrong?

From a philosophical perspective, one might say that the negation or correction of an error (or errors) does not really yield a positive. It yields a neutral, i.e. zero.

It would seem to me that the revelation of a "real" truth results in a positive.

I'm just thinking out loud.

I thought it was boring. Now that I've actually done college-level coursework in religion and biblical studies, I find the "class" clearly lacking in background.

Well, it was interesting to a noob like me, anyway.

I guess one of the concepts that intrigued me the most was that the "dead are dead." They cite several verses that seem to support that belief and it goes completely against what I and most other Christians were taught.

I think CFF is at least currently fairly beneign. Can't say the same for Schoenheit, STFFI/CES et al..

Thank you. You're implication seems to be that STF is harmful or virulent. Can you please elaborate, or point me to a topic where this is discussed? I don't know that much about STF other than it is a TWI splinter group.

Incidentally, I found the CES/STF class "New Life in Christ" to be very interesting. I don't agree with everything that was taught but I learned some things just the same.

...a major problem in this country - as I see it - of overzealous evangelizing and often reckless and offensive application of Bible verses to current-day events. This sort of interpretation denies the historical context of the verses and drags them into the 21st century, which in my view, is inappropriate.

That is so true. And it's what turned me off to religion for many years.

The Tebow organization espouses a far-right theology. Its bottom line: Only those who assent to its version of Christianity will avoid eternal punishment.

According the beliefs of a fundamentalist friend of mine, about 2/3 of the human race (all non-Christians) will not make it to heaven simply because they don't accept Jesus as their savior.

Unfortunately, until more Christians become aware of the history of own their religion...and how these various Christ-focused movements influenced each other, this sort of religious bigotry will continue. It's the stuff "Holy wars" were/are made of. It's the grist for dividing humanity, not uniting or comforting people.

How true. The second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. "All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:40). It's right there in the gospels, but my guess is that about 2/3 of all Christians aren't even aware of this (including my wife, who is a devout Catholic).

And it wouldn't hurt to become a little more educated about other religions, too. We might be surprised at what things they have in common.

One quick example that comes to mind is from J.D. Salinger's short story "Franny", in which the protaginist describes the similarities between "praying incessantly" and the concept of nirvana in Zen Buddhism. She talks about the book, The Way of the Pilgrim and how a Russian peasant is on a quest to discover what the Bible means when it says to "pray incessantly". He learns that one way is to simply repeat the basic Jesus prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me") over and over in your head until it becomes internalized. After a while you don't have to think about it anymore and becomes "synchronized" with your heartbeat. Of course, it doesn't have to be that specific prayer. (And whether one should be praying to Jesus or to God is whole other discussion.)

Anyway, nice post, Pen.

I am, and probably always will be.

Speaking of which...maybe somebody here can save me some time and tell me if I'm likely to find any truth in teachings by John Schoenheit, Wayne Clapp, John Schroyer or anyone from the from CFFM/STF/CES combine?

I'm currently plodding though some classes that an ex-TWIer (I was never one) friend recommended and I'm quickly becoming disenchanted with much of it.

I've walked the via dolorosa (actually both of them) in Jerusalem, and the fact that there are 2 distinct routes turned out to not be the distraction that it could have been once I got it through my head that complete historical accuracy was not possible because the ancient city that we visit was actually built on top of Jerusalem that was destroyed.

My belief is that it really doesn't matter - that it (and every other thing TWI believed was wrongly taught in the orthodox church) is not the deal breaker that TWI made it out to be.

Interesting. Thank you. (My emoticons don't seem to work when I'm on this computer, or I would have inserted a smiley face here.)

The gospels were not written from recalled memories. They were written from recalled stories.

That makes their accuracy even more questionable, doesn't it?

The reality probably is the gospels were more of an afterthought since the apocalypse did not occur in Jesus' generation (as he predicted), and were written after the epistles to help us know who Jesus was, which was after Paul proclaimed "all scripture is god-breathed".

So what is your belief, that JC carried the cross all the way, part of the way, or not all?

Having been raised Catholic and seeing depictions of the "Stations of the Cross" in almost every church I've been to, I was always under the impression that JC carried the cross most of the way (with help from Simon). It is only after having actually read the gospels that I realize he might not have carried it at all.

[fixed]

Matthew 27:32

As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross.

John 19:17

Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).

What's wrong with this picture? Am I the only one that sees a contradiction?

_____________

I don't see a contradiction.

All gospels say Jesus left Jerusalem for Golgatha carrying his cross. All Gospels say Jesus arrived at Golgatha where he was crucified. Three Gospels (except John) add the detail of one thing that happened on the way, namely Simon carried the cross on the second part of the trip. The fact that John doesn't add the detail that Simon carried the cross part of the way is not a contradtiction.

Thanks, John.

So...Matthew, Mark, and Luke didn't think it was important enough to mention that Jesus carried the cross at least part of the way? That doesn't make sense to me. (And it doesn't have to make sense to me, either. I can appreciate the gospels for what they are: the perfect word of God transcribed by the hands of imperfect men.)

If you wonder about (or believe) the idea of 4 crucified, please take a look at my article on it at www.abouttheway.org

Thank you. I've seen your web site and read your article. Excellent work!

You may not like my answer, but IMO it's because there are 4 different writers with 4 different interpretations of what happened.

Thanks, Pen. Actually, I do like your answer since it's what I believe. But it's not about me liking the answer. It's about trying to learn the truth.

I just wonder why EWB didn't concern himself with such an obvious contradiction.

Okay, here's something I don't get...

EWB goes to great lengths to try and reconcile sections of the gospels where he sees a contradiction or inconsistency. But here's something that jumps out at me, and as far as I can tell EWB doesn't address it.

Here are the four accounts of when they took Jesus away to be crucified...(all quotes from the NIV):

Matthew 27:32

As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross.

Mark 15:21

A certain man from Cyrene, Simon, the father of Alexander and Rufus, was passing by on his way in from the country, and they forced him to carry the cross.

Luke 23:26

As they led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus.

John 19:17

Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha).

What's wrong with this picture? Am I the only one that sees a contradiction?

This doesn't strike me as being a translation issue. The words are pretty clear.

In appendix 164 of his Companion Bible, EWB states that;

The explanation that follows doesn't hold water and is somewhat contrived in my view. Not to mention that it is inconsistent with what we are told by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Then, in appendix 160 he arrives at the dubious conclusion that there were six denials from Peter (as if it even mattered). A conclusion which is not only inconsistent with the narrative but contradicts what JC himself said, i.e., that Peter would deny him three times. (The business about a cock crewing twice is not problematic for me.)

Where did EWB get his information from and why has he been largely unchallenged on it?

Why would God have required us to essentially "re-divide the Word" in order to arrive at an understanding of the events as they occured?

Your friend will need a lot of time and patience. It's no easy thing, losing the ministry, church, what-have-you, that has been such a big part of one's life.

Boy, you said it! She steadfastly clings to certain ideas like the Bible interprets itself, mathematical presicion, everything fits like a hand in a glove, etc. I don't know how true some of that is, so I don't push it.

One "discussion" we had recently had to do with the accuracy of the four gospels. She says it is perfect: authored (breathed) by God and God is perfect, therefore the text must be perfect. I say it's authored by God, written by men, and the hands of men are not perfect. Even if it was recorded perfectly by divine inspiration, it's been translated many times and the originals are not available. Remember the "telephone" game when you were a kid? (I think that's what is was called.) Somebody whispers a simple message into the ear of the 1st person, who then whispers it into the ear of the 2nd person, etc. By the time the message comes out of the other end, it's mangled.

Losing a husband, who has been another big part of one's life.

The husband, she can and will do without. TWI's teachings, on the other hand...

It may help to point her to the Cafe, where she will see that what has happened to her is part of a pattern of behavior towards women. It may not help.

She knows about GS but considers many of you to be negative, angry and bitter. I send her threads from the forum that I think would enlighten her. She reads them but I don't know how much she absorbs.

Be a friend, if she will let you. Even if she won't. Expect erratic behavior. Be very patient, very kind, very gentle.

Thanks, Twinky. Our frienship is solid but I try not to badger her too much with my opinions. I'm trying to be as patient, kind and gentle as I can. :)

Sorry to revive a long-dead thread but I have a question...

Initially, I was here to question Way doctrine.

Then I discovered that many of the Way's teachings were derived, competently/correctly or not, from E.W. Bullinger.

So I go and I read about Bullinger. And I start to read the Companion Bible. (Amazing document. I love it.) But how credible is this Bullinger guy? He makes some assertions that I question.

I have to say, I met some of the best, most decent people ever, at TWI. There were a lot of good folks who genuinely wanted to do good for God. They were enthusiastic - for God. For the most part, I haven't found that level of commitment in churches or in other Christians. It's my guess that most of those decent people have been run off, banned, or left of their own accord. Alternatively, they have been lured and corrupted to fit with the general ethos of TWI.

I can tell from reading the posts in this forum that there were many good people who were misled, to some degree or another, by the Way ministry. I don't judge them. As you said, most of the people who were (or still are) in TWI are nice people with great hearts for God.

How has your friend's marriage turned out? Are she and her husband still together? If so...do they actually trust each other?

My friend's marriage is on the rocks and will probably end soon. Her husband is still in TWI and probably will be for life. Ironically, TWI probably kept them together for many years. He would often manipulate her with quotes from scripture (wives submit to your husbands, etc.) or condemn her if she threatened to leave (you'll lose your eternal rewards, etc.). Now that she's quit TWI she can step back and see how badly she was treated by both hubby and TWI.

But seriously, if you need help finding something here, don't be shy.

Thank you, sir. I introduced myself briefly here...

...but I dated a girl a long time ago who was and recently we reconnected. Read the short version of the story here:

Now I'm curious about the organization that she spent over 20 years of her life devoted to. (She quit TWI this year but still adheres to teachings by CFFM/STF/CES).

Relevant facts about me:

-- Born in the 1950s in New York.

-- Raised Roman Catholic but was a non-believer for most of my adult life.

-- Married, three kids, house in the 'burbs, etc.

-- Got turned on to the Bible by my ex-Wayer friend and now I'm a believer.

-- I do not buy into the "Idiom of Permssion" as way of explaining God's actions in the OT.

-- I do not believe there were "six denials of Peter" or four crucified with Christ (and I wonder why anybody who can read would).

That's all for now.

P.S. I apologize if this thread is redundant. If there's a similar thread, please let me know.

Greetings, soul searcher

Welcome to the cafe.

Will you be needing a menu?

Thanks, waysider. What's the special tonight?

Hi Soul Searcher Welcome to Grease Spot.

Thank you, leafy. Having re-connected recently with an old friend who was in TWI for over 20 years, I've been lurking on these boards trying to get some insight into how that organization worked. I had no idea there were so many ex-Wayers (although I might have suspected it, given what my friend told me about how the ministry fell apart).

And I had no idea how cult-like the TWI is. The stories I've read on these boards are horrible and disgusting. The two leaders I've read and heard about sound like despicable human beings and I don't know how anybody -- Christian or not -- could consider them to be real men of God.

Anyway, what you said above is so true. My friend thought she could convert me, but it was a waste of time for either of us to try to persuade the other. I was just starting graduate school and I wasn't gonna leave -- no way, no how. She went off and married a TWI guy and now, many years later, she regrets it. She left TWI about a year ago but her husband stubbornly clings to it. They'll probably break up soon.

Just look around this forum. The Way International is a cult fer Heaven's sake. If this girl you are dating is at all into TWI (The Way International) she will have nothing to do with you if you resist efforts to join up.

Hmm...interesting. That exact scenario played out in my life a long time ago. She wanted me to take the foundational class and I wouldn't (I was a non-practicing Catholic at the time and had no interest in religion). She went WOW and moved away so that was the end of our relationship.

It's too bad, too. We both realize today that if she hadn't joined TWI, both of our lives would have been very different -- and probably better. Only now, many years later, does she see that she made a big mistake in her decision to move away from me, her family and her friends.

P.S. I haven't read all of the posts in this thread yet. Also, I'm new to this forum.