free2love

I understand. Sorry. That’s just how I talk. I said God is working in me, not you. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. To me, that’s His word and that’s the truth. If that doesn’t fire your jets, oh well. God Bless You :)

You have a right to believe whatever you want. :)

Yet equal to the same thing. This is very much a God issue and there's no way around that

Wow, I never really thought about people who were there in the late eighties and nineties. Or rather I thought about it a little and my mind just went ‘sproing!’ ‘cause I just couldn’t imagine it. When I left I wasn’t really so full of righteous thunder, but I did have a pretty clear idea I was right, it was very much a clean break compared to you and a lot of people left with me and we did have a fellowship group. I can’t imagine going on and on with loy boy badgering us and all that m&a stuff. …but believe me if you can, God was there. As I’ve been posting to some others, it makes me think of the story of Joseph. You feel far from God. Imagine how Joseph felt, down in that pit, looking up at his own brothers trying to figure out whether to kill him and how to do it. Myself, I think I’d be a’wonderin’ about then where God was and why he’d deserted me… but look at how it turned out. Look at the prophecy of the famines and the saving of Jacob’s whole family. To me it’s a valid comparison. You could never see anything like that from Wicca. Well, you’ll hear God loves you the rest of your life. There’s no way out of that, but forget about that ‘you’re going to hell’ stuff. You couldn’t get in even if you wanted to.

Right on Of course you’re right again. The tricky part of that is twofold. First, just where do we draw the line between the “person” and the “leader”? Twig leader? Branch? Way corps? I know one of the first things I thought about 20yrs ago when I left was all the people I’d taught and indoctrinated into PFAL and the “ways of the Way”. We thought we had found the good stuff and we all worked together to spread the news. So where does the responsibility end? So the first problem is hierarchy. When I got out, like many, I’m sure, the first thing I did was haul out the concordances and interlinears and started separating “meat from bones”. One of the first things God opened to me was that there is no hierarchy in the body of Christ. We who believe are to answer to and follow one Lord and I think you know who that is. No vpw, no lcm, nobody! One Lord! As it says in the bible about this time, “the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” Yes there are leaders but they are to lead as God directs them, not boss people around. No hierarchy. No man in any authority between you and your Lord.The second thing is forgiveness. Ya know, twi never was very big on teachings about it, at least not when I was involved from ’79 to ’86, maybe before that, I don’t know, but, at any rate, I never heard a lot about it but, ya know something? It’s a pretty big issue in the bible. As a matter of fact it says we’re supposed to forgive them. Wow, what a concept. Yes, God looks at the heart, it’s true, but in the hands of twi this became a substitute doctrine to the truth that God always looks at us with forgiveness… always. The “God looks at the heart” doctrine went right along with the “broken fellowship” doctrine. No such aminal! Never was. In fact it’s downright blasphemous to say or to teach that God’s forgiveness is anything but complete in any way, shape or form. Generally speaking I must say it was a real joy finding out that what the bible really says far outshines the doctrines and commandments of men twi taught. They taught some things that were really right on also but, just as Jesus told us would happen, the lies they taught “made the word of God of none effect” in our lives. amen! :)

Right on, Abigail. You sound like you have a big heart. To add somewhat to what you said, I think the same is true of the bible we learned there. Some of what they taught us was pure hooey but I know I learned many things that are true which I never would have learned had it not been for vpw’s ‘con man’ sales pitch or his plagiarism. In fact, had it not been for that particular combo, I know I would’ve never heard of Bullinger or Stiles or BG Leonard. On the other hand I honestly don’t think I ever learned one blessed thing from lcm. LoL!!! What a goober! ‘Greasespot by midnight’ indeed! Also, like you, I made friends while there that I love dearly and always will. At any rate, I liken the whole experience to the story of Joseph. It wasn’t God who filled the hearts of his brothers with evil to betray and destroy him and it wasn’t God who sold him into slavery yet, in the end it turned out that God was with him through it all and, in fact caused great good to come out of it so that his entire family was saved from certain death in the famine. The famine no one but God knew was coming. What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us!

(Wrote this in another post before I got to your reply here) Someone asked me why I said this represents such a victory for twi… I should think it would be obvious. If they have succeeded, with all their crap, to drive such a huge wedge between God and His children that they will turn anywhere but to Him for help, then twi has won and defeated His children …in my mind, exactly what twi intended in the first place. I, for one, want to see twi lose and their evil come to nothing. How about you? Does that answer your question?

Huh? :blink:

Sorry, my bad. I’ll try to do better. Honest. No, of course not. Agreed …absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Point taken. Thanks :)

I was quoted; “The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me” In context? …None whatsoever! LoL! But thanks for posting. Actually, it’s my fault. I guess I assumed this was one of those stories that everyone knew, probly picked up by me in someone’s teaching sometime. This is more like the full version and I’m sorry my post was so cryptic: This nasty old drunk was stumbling along the street one night and chanced to pass by an open window where he heard this awful wailing coming from inside… He stopped to peer in and saw a woman kneeling on the kitchen floor, holding her infant son and crying out to God for help because the cupboards were bare and she had nothing to feed her hungry child. The drunk, totally disgusted with this noisy woman, grumbled to himself, “I’ll show that #%@*!” and proceeded to stagger across the street to a small shop and returned with a loaf of bread. He then heaved it in the window so that it landed right in front of her to which she responded, “Oh thank you Lord! Thank you! Thank you!” Then the drunkard stuck his ugly face in the window and bellowed, “God didn’t give you that bread, I did!” The woman straightened herself, looked that drunk right in the eye and replied, “The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me!” I hope that’s clearer.

Well, I have to admit that’s a pretty positive evaluation. Sounds good… The reason I “seem to think that most folks that come here are somehow injured” is simply because that’s just a matter of fact. As for people who are “still reeling in pain”, obviously there a many various degrees of hardened/softened hearts around here. That tells me many are still hurting... and some have been healing and growing. My concern is for the suffering. I never said it did, nor do I begrudge any injured party their fair share of bitterness. I feel deep sorrow at the grievous wrongs done by twi in the name of God to those, myself included, who trusted them. But wouldn’t “seeking… the freedom to openly discuss things that TWI and a few others want swept under there rug or kept in the lock box” also be an indication they are looking for healing?No, I am not characterizing the complaints of the wounded as negativity, it’s just that I see help and healing where it seems a lot of others see despair or apathy. My intent in saying such things is not to criticize anyone but to say to those who are injured and hurting that there is more… that God is there and knows their pain and wants to pull them out. …to remind them of God’s love for them. Well said! Exactly my point. Someone asked me why I said this represents such a victory for twi… I should think it would be obvious. If they have succeeded, with all their crap, to drive such a huge wedge between God and His children that they will turn anywhere but to Him for help, then twi has won and defeated His children …in my mind, exactly what twi intended in the first place. I, for one, want to see twi lose and their evil come to nothing. How about you? Maybe it is you who “might be a bit naive”… When Joseph was reunited with his brothers who almost killed him and sold him into slavery, he told them: “As for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good”… That’s what I’m about. I look for God in all this evil and destruction that has befallen my brothers and sisters. I know it was not He who injured us even if they don’t… and, further, I know He has a purpose for them just as He did for Joseph. I will do my level best to tear down any such stronghold of sorrow and pain, especially when it prevents God's people from turning to Him. (see above) As for your last comment, I suggest you ask God if that is the case. God Bless You! :)

I dunno, I guess God is working in me to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Nothing wrong with “preconceived notions” as long as they are true. i.e.: “God is good” Such notions you would not want or need to lay aside. Of course, you are talking about the horizontal and I, the vertical...

Abigail, you certainly have a way of seeing things from all sides and stating those views succinctly. Thanks!

First I said: "The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me... then: " Gee tanx! OK, so now that you had a chance to think about it, waddaya think?

Originally, I said: "It seems to me this is untrue. It seems to me that one is welcome here as long as they have negative, bitter, snide, demeaning things to say and as long as they say nothing regarding God or the Bible. I wish this weren't the case but this is what I see in the threads and in the "radio broadcasts" Of course I did. I am another who labored under their delusions for many years. Point taken… So, you’re saying I’m being pigeonholed. Well, you’re right that I’m not in that group. VPW/LCM/TWI most definitely harmed me, misled me and taught me wrongly as wrongly could be, perhaps the most grievous of which being the totally lame “God wants you rich/positive ‘believing” doctrine they endlessly shoveled down my throat. So it sounds like I need to be screened and initiated if I want to be accepted, ya? Funny, that sounds a little like twi, especially in later years, after I left. I see (again) I need to learn and look deeper into what is being said and who's saying it... Then I was quoted again: “Perhaps some will recall the old story about the evil drunkard who brought bread to the starving woman and her son and told her, as she was giving thanks, "God didn't give you that bread, I did!", to which she replied: "The devil may have delivered it but God gave it to me!" God gave me many things by TWI and/but TWI also gave me a lot of junk. My relationship with God started before TWI and has continued since. TWI is/was not the be-all/end-all of my life. I feel that God led me in and that God also led me out." One of the most hideous wrongs which twi committed is that, by their stupid “law of believing” teachings they doctrinally took everything out of God’s hands and put it on us, making us "little gods" This is why I tend to look look at things from God’s point of view… what He did, what He’s doing, what He thinks and intends. He did not rip our hearts out with constant brow-beating and tyranny. He did not seduce and rape our sisters. That was twi. Agreed. Good point. And again: (Me) “After twenty years (since I left) of bitterness, documented online in various forums ever since Trancenet, I'm tired of it. I know there is healing in venting and I don't want to just look the other way or ignore the pain that so many have gone through but there is also more to healing than venting. If anyone else is interested in discussing God’s calling and mercy and love in their life, I’d be blessed to hear from you." Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. In the last twenty years I’ve been booted out of many churches, some publicly and ceremonially. …but your point is valid. I was, for example, greatly blessed one Sunday when God led me to attend a Baptist service where, that particular week, they just happened to be explaining their baptism doctrine. Imagine my surprise when I learned that they did not teach that one needed to be baptized to be saved as twi had taught me. Even though I currently use about nine different versions and three different interlinears I must admit, that one is not among them… but your point is well made. Thank you for taking the time for such a considered response. God Bless.

No filters here!

EXCELLENT post! That nails it! Thanks!

Well said… Tell me do you think God had anything to do with it? Ya know, that was part of the waybrain… Remember how they attacked the ‘religions’? They told us if they had any wrong doctrine then God was not to be found there... because they were ‘out to lunch’. I’m not pro-Way in any sense… I’m just pro-God and, as far as I’m concerned, I don't see how He can be left out of all this. So what do you think? Was God there at all or absolutely not at all? Do you think he cares? I, myself wonder how He feels about all of this… what He thinks… what He would say…

You're point is well made and taken... however... doesn't this represent a huge, ongoing victory for TWI and the forces that drive it? Think about it. :unsure:

Funny… (And snide and demeaning, btw) I see it as just the opposite. People who come here seeking to discuss “the actions of a destructive cult and the impact its vicious leaders had on (their) lives” are, at least most of them, seeking what? Well, if you’re injured what do you seek out? If it were myself, I think I’d be looking for help and healing and, to me, it’s axiomatic that I’d be looking to God. Secondly, for most it was because they were trying with all their might to be true to what they believed was “God’s calling and mercy and love in (their) lives” that they were vulnerable to these evil cult leaders. Don’t you think maybe God has a vested concern in their suffering and would come to meet them where they are? Well, He can work through me toward that end any time and to any extent He wants and if He sends me here, this is where I’ll be.