James Trimm

I find this interesting because tho I am no scholar and no Jew, I believe the intent was for the people of the tribe to select their leaders from among themselves, chosen for the persons mental and moral abilites and understanding of the Torah... not by men appointing themselves as leaders. Lets not forget also the importance of Bloodline within the Jewish faith.

Again I suggest the added context of the free PDF book The Apostasy and Restoration

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8676000/8676568/2/print/restore2.pdf

When we reorganized the ancient Sect of the Nazarenes in 1996, in the absence of a Nazarene Beit Din, this passage of Deut. required us to establish one.

I have Jewish blood. Mine is through my father and rabbinic Judaism only respects bloodline through a mother. We argue that the linage was Abraham to Isaac to Jacob...

Also Esther 8:17 refers quite plainly to those who "become Jews" (no bloodline involved).

My attention span is guided by relevancy.

How can you judge the relevancy of that which you dismiss as to long to read....

Oh no....more long, re-posted gibberish. Defacto defensive answer. Copied from the "defend against people who uncover the real me" file. Move along, nothing more to see here.

Heaven forbid the truth might be more than your attention span.

You seem to assume anyone is guilty whose defense outlasts your attention span.

This seems to have been a drive-by attack, as when I stated it was totally false, rather than give your "particulars" you totally changed the subject.

This was already covered in the PDF file I directed people to at:

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8857000/8857710/1/print/sl2.pdf

However I will now repost it here:

I am not a proponent of the Book of Mormon. Many years ago (back in the mid 1990’s) I did in fact go onto Mormon discussion groups under pseudonyms and argued against Mormonism by using The Book of Mormon in a “for arguments sake” type approach.

The BoM quotes and paraphrases many phrases, verses, concepts and even whole chapters from the Bible. In fact as much as half or more of the BoM actually closely parallels passages in the Bible. As a result there is much Biblical truth in the BoM. These are Biblical truths that first appeared in the Bible. Therefore regardless of whether or not the BoM is true or not there is none-the-less a great deal of truth in the BoM.

If one takes a Hebraic-Roots approach to these Biblical truths that appear in the BoM one is able teach these truths to Mormons from a "Jewish Perspective" and thus deal with what could be called "Jewishness" in/of the BoM. This "Jewishness" is simply the result of applying a Hebraic-Roots approach and a Jewish perspective to Biblical truths that appear in the BoM. These Biblical truths appear because the BoM quotes and paraphrases many phrases, verses, concepts and even whole chapters from the Bible.

Now because of the fact that the BoM contains Biblical truth, it can be very useful in reaching Mormons with these Biblical truths. And by applying a Jewish/Hebraic-roots perspective on these Biblical truths one can effectively reach Mormons with both Torah and Messiah.

Christian ministries have used this type of approach for years in attempting to reach Mormons with Orthodox Christianity. One tract published by Personal Freedom Outreach says:

Anyone visited by a Mormon Missionary has heard

the Elder's testimony concerning the Book of Mormon:

That he knows this book is the Word of God

and that the founder of the Mormon Church,

Joseph Smith, Jr., translated it by the gift and power of God.

Further, the prospect is encouraged sincerely

to study the Book of Mormon and "The divine truths

it contains."

The Book of Mormon indeed does contain a number of

"divine truths", first set forth in the Bible,...

[the author then lists six of these]

Much of the major theology set forth in the Book of Mormon

is indeed in harmony with orthodox Christianity.

However, many who are visited by the LDS Missionaries

are unaware that the present theology of the Mormon Church

is very different from their own Book of Mormon. ...

Mormon theology is not contained in,

but rather contradicted by the Book of Mormon....

The presence of "Divine Truths" within the Book of Mormon

is merely a result of Joseph Smith, Jr. incorporating

much of the Bible into his work. (see 'The use of the Bible

in the Book of Mormon by H. Michael Marquardt).

- DIVINE TRUTHS IN THE BOOK OF MORMON

http://www.associate.com/ministry_files/The_Reading_Room/False_Teaching_n_Teachers_1/Divine_Truths_In_The_Book_Of_Mo.shtml

There are a number of Christian tracts and ministries that have taken this same approach to disprove Mormon theology and teach Orthodox Christian theology to Mormons using the divine truths in their Book of Mormon.

For example the tract THOSE PLAIN AND PRECIOUS THINGS from Saints Alive:

http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/plainandprecious.htm

and an article called:

Joseph Smith vs. the Book of Mormon By Gary F. Zeolla

http://www.dtl.org/cults/article/smith.htm

Some years ago I adapted this same approach to Messianic/Nazarene Judaism. By taking a Hebraic-Roots Jewish approach to these "divine truths" in the Book of Mormon I could actually reach Mormons with real Torah based divine truth USING THEIR OWN BOOK!

This approach becomes very important because Mormons put more stock in the Book of Mormon than in the Bible. As a Saints Alive tract correctly states:

"I (Joseph Smith) told the Brethren that

the Book of Mormon was the most correct

of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion,

and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts,

than by any other book."

(History of the Church, Volume 4, Page 461)

It is the LDS concept that the Bible is the Word of God

as far as it is translated correctly, that is,

what is left of the Bible after many Plain and Precious

Things were removed by the great and abominable church.

The Mormon also "knows" that the Book of Mormon

is the Word of God. It did not have many

Plain and Precious Things removed. It did not

suffer at the hands of many translations.

(Those Plain and Precious Things tract- Saints Alive)

This tract goes on to show that the many unique Mormon doctrines do NOT appear in the Book of Mormon which actually teaches against them. The tract continues further down:

1 Nephi 13:26-36 says that the "great and abominable church"

(verse 26) took away from the gospel many parts and covenants

which were Plain and Precious, in order to pervert the ways of the Lord

and blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the people.

The Bible was corrupted because of this (verse 28). What were

some of those Plain and Precious Things? Are these those that

separate Mormonism from the Christianity that grew out of the past?

Are these not the law of eternal progression, salvation,

baptism for the dead, the nature of God, temples, and polygamy?

The Lord God (Elohim) promised that a day would come

when these things will be restored (verse 32) after the Gentiles

stumble about because of this act of the "mother of harlots"

taking the most Plain and Precious Things of the Gospel

of the Lamb (verse 34). The Lamb of God (Jesus) says exactly

how this restoration of all the Plain and Precious Things

will come about. In verse 35 He says He will manifest Himself

to the Seed of Nephi and they shall write many things all

the precious things taken away by that church and even

after they (your seed) are all gone. These things shall be

hidden up to come forth unto the Gentiles. Verse 36 says,

"And in them shall be written my gospel., saith the Lamb,

and my rock (word "rock" refers to the gospel' see D&C 11:24)

and my salvation." Therefore, the Plain and Precious Things

taken away by the great and abominable church must be restored

in the Book of Mormon. This is verified by Latter-day

revelations also:

"For in them are all things written concerning

the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock." (D&C 18:4)

"And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet

thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing

of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and

the Word of God." (D&C 19:26) "And gave him power from on high,

by the means which were before prepared, to translate

the Book of Mormon; which contains a record of a fallen people,

and the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles

and to the Jews also." (D&C 20:8&9) "And again, the elders,

priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles

of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon,

in the which is the fullness of the gospel." (D&C 42:12)

What are the things contained in the fullness of the gospel,

the Book of Mormon, which are lost, hidden and not contained

in the Bible? By the Word of God, they must be in the Book

of Mormon. Where are these teaching of Mormonism?

The critical doctrines that separate Mormonism from

the Christianity that was debased for the loss of "many

Plain and Precious Things" from its scriptures by the

"great and abominable church" are listed here:

[the author then lists several unique Mormon doctrines]

The Book of Mormon is the "Stick of Joseph."

Either these doctrines must be found in the Book of Mormon

or Mormonism is subject to the words of Jesus in

His judgment of 3 Nephi 27:11; Alma 13:20; 2 Nephi 28:15;

2 Nephi 28:16, 21-24, 25.

Not only can these things not be found in the Book of Mormon,

but the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED

TO SOME OF THESE "LDS ONLY" DOCTRINES! ...

The Author goes on to list several examples. Note also that this Christian author [saints Alive founder Ed Decker?] takes a "for arguments sake" type approach. (In fact in this and many similar Christian writings the authors, in taking this approach say many things that could be quoted out of context so as to imply that they believe the BoM is true.)

Now many years ago I did in fact go onto Mormon discussion groups under pseudonyms and argued against Mormonism by using their own books in a “for arguments sake” type approach.

In fact an independent Beit Din heard this matter ten years ago and ruled:

We find James Trimm's use of the pseudonym of Rabbi Yosef

not inappropriate on the Mormon forums within James Trimm's

frame of reference.

Now James. You owned the Website for the college, which you once used to convince someone you had a degree (circa 2003). I have the particulars - but my question is WHY? Why did you do that, and you did make an attempt to decieve others into believing it was "outside" confirmation. You realize, of course that that idiotic maneuver forever tarnished you as a liar. The college never owned that site. James Trimm did. And pretending to be a third person wrote to a group, telling them - you or james trimm can go there and look.

Rather silly. Why did you do that?

This seems to have been a drive-by attack, as when I stated it was totally false, rather than give your "particulars" you totally changed the subject.

Pssssst......hey James......when you put something on the interweb it is still there for the search savvy to find. No matter how many years go by there is a better than average chance it can be extrapolated across the wires from some harddrive tucked away somewhere housing archives. Please try to keep that in mind...please?.....ok?....

This was already covered in the PDF file I directed people to at:

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8857000/8857710/1/print/sl2.pdf

However I will now repost it here:

I am not a proponent of the Book of Mormon. Many years ago (back in the mid 1990’s) I did in fact go onto Mormon discussion groups under pseudonyms and argued against Mormonism by using The Book of Mormon in a “for arguments sake” type approach.

The BoM quotes and paraphrases many phrases, verses, concepts and even whole chapters from the Bible. In fact as much as half or more of the BoM actually closely parallels passages in the Bible. As a result there is much Biblical truth in the BoM. These are Biblical truths that first appeared in the Bible. Therefore regardless of whether or not the BoM is true or not there is none-the-less a great deal of truth in the BoM.

If one takes a Hebraic-Roots approach to these Biblical truths that appear in the BoM one is able teach these truths to Mormons from a "Jewish Perspective" and thus deal with what could be called "Jewishness" in/of the BoM. This "Jewishness" is simply the result of applying a Hebraic-Roots approach and a Jewish perspective to Biblical truths that appear in the BoM. These Biblical truths appear because the BoM quotes and paraphrases many phrases, verses, concepts and even whole chapters from the Bible.

Now because of the fact that the BoM contains Biblical truth, it can be very useful in reaching Mormons with these Biblical truths. And by applying a Jewish/Hebraic-roots perspective on these Biblical truths one can effectively reach Mormons with both Torah and Messiah.

Christian ministries have used this type of approach for years in attempting to reach Mormons with Orthodox Christianity. One tract published by Personal Freedom Outreach says:

Anyone visited by a Mormon Missionary has heard

the Elder's testimony concerning the Book of Mormon:

That he knows this book is the Word of God

and that the founder of the Mormon Church,

Joseph Smith, Jr., translated it by the gift and power of God.

Further, the prospect is encouraged sincerely

to study the Book of Mormon and "The divine truths

it contains."

The Book of Mormon indeed does contain a number of

"divine truths", first set forth in the Bible,...

[the author then lists six of these]

Much of the major theology set forth in the Book of Mormon

is indeed in harmony with orthodox Christianity.

However, many who are visited by the LDS Missionaries

are unaware that the present theology of the Mormon Church

is very different from their own Book of Mormon. ...

Mormon theology is not contained in,

but rather contradicted by the Book of Mormon....

The presence of "Divine Truths" within the Book of Mormon

is merely a result of Joseph Smith, Jr. incorporating

much of the Bible into his work. (see 'The use of the Bible

in the Book of Mormon by H. Michael Marquardt).

- DIVINE TRUTHS IN THE BOOK OF MORMON

http://www.associate.com/ministry_files/The_Reading_Room/False_Teaching_n_Teachers_1/Divine_Truths_In_The_Book_Of_Mo.shtml

There are a number of Christian tracts and ministries that have taken this same approach to disprove Mormon theology and teach Orthodox Christian theology to Mormons using the divine truths in their Book of Mormon.

For example the tract THOSE PLAIN AND PRECIOUS THINGS from Saints Alive:

http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/plainandprecious.htm

and an article called:

Joseph Smith vs. the Book of Mormon By Gary F. Zeolla

http://www.dtl.org/cults/article/smith.htm

Some years ago I adapted this same approach to Messianic/Nazarene Judaism. By taking a Hebraic-Roots Jewish approach to these "divine truths" in the Book of Mormon I could actually reach Mormons with real Torah based divine truth USING THEIR OWN BOOK!

This approach becomes very important because Mormons put more stock in the Book of Mormon than in the Bible. As a Saints Alive tract correctly states:

"I (Joseph Smith) told the Brethren that

the Book of Mormon was the most correct

of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion,

and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts,

than by any other book."

(History of the Church, Volume 4, Page 461)

It is the LDS concept that the Bible is the Word of God

as far as it is translated correctly, that is,

what is left of the Bible after many Plain and Precious

Things were removed by the great and abominable church.

The Mormon also "knows" that the Book of Mormon

is the Word of God. It did not have many

Plain and Precious Things removed. It did not

suffer at the hands of many translations.

(Those Plain and Precious Things tract- Saints Alive)

This tract goes on to show that the many unique Mormon doctrines do NOT appear in the Book of Mormon which actually teaches against them. The tract continues further down:

1 Nephi 13:26-36 says that the "great and abominable church"

(verse 26) took away from the gospel many parts and covenants

which were Plain and Precious, in order to pervert the ways of the Lord

and blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the people.

The Bible was corrupted because of this (verse 28). What were

some of those Plain and Precious Things? Are these those that

separate Mormonism from the Christianity that grew out of the past?

Are these not the law of eternal progression, salvation,

baptism for the dead, the nature of God, temples, and polygamy?

The Lord God (Elohim) promised that a day would come

when these things will be restored (verse 32) after the Gentiles

stumble about because of this act of the "mother of harlots"

taking the most Plain and Precious Things of the Gospel

of the Lamb (verse 34). The Lamb of God (Jesus) says exactly

how this restoration of all the Plain and Precious Things

will come about. In verse 35 He says He will manifest Himself

to the Seed of Nephi and they shall write many things all

the precious things taken away by that church and even

after they (your seed) are all gone. These things shall be

hidden up to come forth unto the Gentiles. Verse 36 says,

"And in them shall be written my gospel., saith the Lamb,

and my rock (word "rock" refers to the gospel' see D&C 11:24)

and my salvation." Therefore, the Plain and Precious Things

taken away by the great and abominable church must be restored

in the Book of Mormon. This is verified by Latter-day

revelations also:

"For in them are all things written concerning

the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock." (D&C 18:4)

"And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet

thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing

of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and

the Word of God." (D&C 19:26) "And gave him power from on high,

by the means which were before prepared, to translate

the Book of Mormon; which contains a record of a fallen people,

and the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles

and to the Jews also." (D&C 20:8&9) "And again, the elders,

priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles

of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon,

in the which is the fullness of the gospel." (D&C 42:12)

What are the things contained in the fullness of the gospel,

the Book of Mormon, which are lost, hidden and not contained

in the Bible? By the Word of God, they must be in the Book

of Mormon. Where are these teaching of Mormonism?

The critical doctrines that separate Mormonism from

the Christianity that was debased for the loss of "many

Plain and Precious Things" from its scriptures by the

"great and abominable church" are listed here:

[the author then lists several unique Mormon doctrines]

The Book of Mormon is the "Stick of Joseph."

Either these doctrines must be found in the Book of Mormon

or Mormonism is subject to the words of Jesus in

His judgment of 3 Nephi 27:11; Alma 13:20; 2 Nephi 28:15;

2 Nephi 28:16, 21-24, 25.

Not only can these things not be found in the Book of Mormon,

but the doctrine of the Book of Mormon is ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED

TO SOME OF THESE "LDS ONLY" DOCTRINES! ...

The Author goes on to list several examples. Note also that this Christian author [saints Alive founder Ed Decker?] takes a "for arguments sake" type approach. (In fact in this and many similar Christian writings the authors, in taking this approach say many things that could be quoted out of context so as to imply that they believe the BoM is true.)

Now many years ago I did in fact go onto Mormon discussion groups under pseudonyms and argued against Mormonism by using their own books in a “for arguments sake” type approach.

Now James. You owned the Website for the college, which you once used to convince someone you had a degree (circa 2003). I have the particulars - but my question is WHY? Why did you do that, and you did make an attempt to decieve others into believing it was "outside" confirmation. You realize, of course that that idiotic maneuver forever tarnished you as a liar. The college never owned that site. James Trimm did. And pretending to be a third person wrote to a group, telling them - you or james trimm can go there and look.

Rather silly. Why did you do that?

I have no idea what "particulars" you think you have, but that is totally false.

IIRC, they did, with 2 different orders of ordination.

So, they ordained each other with the first order,

then ordained each other with the second order.

Actually with the first level ordination they ordained each other.

With the second level they claim Peter, James and John descended from heaven and ordained them...

Sure, so you picked three friends who may or may not even be Jewish and they appointed you as a Rabbi over a school you started. Yup, that's perfectly credible. And what, precisely, qualified your friends to be elders, other than the fact that you wanted it to be so?

Then you used your fake ordination to put people under laws that even God never put people under. Yup, this is very fitting for about The Way. VPW got his papermill doctorate, manipulated his ordination, set up a church with a school, and put people under laws that even God never put them under.

I guess a cult is a cult is a cult is a cult. The m.o. is the same.

I don't have to take this abuse from you...

I've got thousands of people out there that want to abuse ME.

If you want to understand the foundations of our authority to administer the Worldwide Nazarene Assembly of Elohim read the following free book:

The Apostasy and Restoration

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_68/8676000/8676568/2/print/restore2.pdf

James Trimm's doctorate has been used to promote his website "Yeshiva" or simply put, a Jewish Rabbinical School. He stated in an internet email, and on his website that, "Beit Netzarim Nazarene Yeshiva functions under the approbation of the International Nazarene Beit Din."

James Trimm set up the International Nazarene Beit Din, with himself and a few others on the board, and then authorized himself to form the school called, Beit Netzarim Yeshiva, although he isn't Jewish.

The "International Beit Din," then, is the so-called "Jewish authority" formed and headed by James. That means he gets his authority from, makes decisions for and is basically answerable to, himself.

SOURCE

........................................................

Sounds a bit like a certain "Doctor" some of us remember----Dat's Riiiiigggghhhhttt!

If you want to see the fruits of the International Nazarene Beit Din

Visit the Virtual Chamber of Hewn Stone and look at our halacha and resolutions:

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/group/virtualchamberofhewnstone

I think the quality of our halachah speaks for itself.

James, I work in the legal field. In litigation. People lie during depositions. Those depositions are then used to impeach the person during trial. It happens quite frequently. If TWI's attorneys caught you in a lie, it would be very poor strategy to let you know about it prior to trial.

The problem with taking their case against you to trial is that legally they had a thin case regardless of whether or not you lied during your deposition. Their case was premised on copyright infringement of a religious nature regarding the Bible. It was going to be a hard case to win.

Moreover, TWI did exactly what you did. They gathered information from numerous source and published books based upon that information, without giving proper credit to their sources. So Clay is right. Taking you to trial would have forced them to risk exposing themselves for the same exact fraudulant activities they accused you of.

Of course, I would imagine your due to your relationship with Michael Rood, you already know this.

This is what I mean by internet conspiracy theories. I have never met or spoken to Michael Rood in my life. I have never even exchanged email with the man.

No, we got the authority to establish a Beit Din from the Torah (not me):

Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates,

which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes:

and they shall judge the people with just judgment.

(Deut. 16:18 KJV)

The Beit Din is a voting body.

James Trimm's doctorate has been used to promote his website "Yeshiva" or simply put, a Jewish Rabbinical School. He stated in an internet email, and on his website that, "Beit Netzarim Nazarene Yeshiva functions under the approbation of the International Nazarene Beit Din."

James Trimm set up the International Nazarene Beit Din, with himself and a few others on the board, and then authorized himself to form the school called, Beit Netzarim Yeshiva, although he isn't Jewish.

The "International Beit Din," then, is the so-called "Jewish authority" formed and headed by James. That means he gets his authority from, makes decisions for and is basically answerable to, himself.

SOURCE

........................................................

Sounds a bit like a certain "Doctor" some of us remember----Dat's Riiiiigggghhhhttt!

I did not get where I did with the lawsuit by lying my way through my deposition. If I had lied in my deposition, I have no doubt that TWI attorneys would have taken the case to trial prepared to destroy my credibility before the jury. I am sure they checked up on these things, for exactly that reason. Why settle a suit with someone you can prove lied their way through their deposition?

yeah, uh, sure. I've never seen a witness lie during a deposition! DOH!!!

Mainstream Judaism, both Orthodox and Conservative, require graduation from a 4 year Jewish seminary. Chabad and Hassidics have their own qualifications which require intense study as well.

According to Orthodox Halacha a Beit Din of three elders can give s'mikhah (laying on of hands - "ordination")

(as stated in the Mishnah m.Sanhedrin 1:3)

The following is from my sworn deposition taken by TWI attorneys taken Jan. 29, 2010 concerning the Phil Arnn issue:

We had Mr. Arnn standing by available as a witness (BTW I later found out that after many years he has left Watchman Fellowship although they still know him well.)

This is what I mean when I say that you can say anything on the internet, but when it comes to court and real facts and real discovery and real depositions then internet conspiracy theories start to evaporate.

Remember TWI chose to settle this suit rather than take it to trial after the process of taking depositions and discovery.

This Link has some information in that regard, James. Here is an interesting quote:

"In email correspondence spanning May 22- June 4, 2003 and a telephone conversation with Phillip Arnn, Senior Researcher for the counter cult organization, Watchman Fellowship, Phillip made the following statements about James Trimm, his doctorate, and on line transcript.

"To my knowledge, James does not have a doctorate. He was given an honorary degree by a church. It was something like the Apostolic Catholic Church. James did not go to college. His Hebrew and Aramaic are self taught. He told me he had not been able to afford college. And he told me when this church gave him the doctorate."

"To my knowledge, James never took those courses. He told me De Cordova was giving him an honorary doctorate. I was in fairly close contact with James from '93 thru '95."

Phil Arnn related in a statement a great many "recollections" including a "recollection" that he had NOT written any letter of recommendation for me. Phil Arnn later retracted his earlier statement saying that when shown the actual letter in question he *did* recall writing it and then he characterized his previous statement as based on "one phone conversation" he only "vaguely recall[ed]".

James,

When I was first told about the letter in question ( it was not available

on-line at the time) I did not remember ever writing a letter for you. I was

also under the impression that the letter was an endorsement of your present

theology and movement. Now that I have read the letter, it is obvious that

it is mine and was limited to the recommendation of yourself and the work

you had done on the Branch Davidian theology articles for the Expositor.

As to the reason for your receiving the degree, our recollections differ.

But, I only vaguely recall you mentioning the degree in one phone

conversation. The Word clearly says that a truth is established in the

mouths of two or three witnesses, not just one.

At the present time, 2003, we obviously have taken different roads as to

theology. But, as far as the two issues I have mentioned above, I hope this

sets the record straight.

Phillip Arnn,

Senior Researcher

Watchman Fellowship, Inc.

In a later email Phil Arnn said:

This is like a television crime drama. Where were you on June 3ard, 1995?

Did you have a phone conversation with one James Scott Trimm on the

morning of - - - ? What did he say to you? What did you say to him?

Frankly, I did not remember writing the letter until I saw the letter again

on James's website. I do not remember with a certainty what we said.

This Link has some information in that regard, James. Here is an interesting quote:

"In email correspondence spanning May 22- June 4, 2003 and a telephone conversation with Phillip Arnn, Senior Researcher for the counter cult organization, Watchman Fellowship, Phillip made the following statements about James Trimm, his doctorate, and on line transcript.

"To my knowledge, James does not have a doctorate. He was given an honorary degree by a church. It was something like the Apostolic Catholic Church. James did not go to college. His Hebrew and Aramaic are self taught. He told me he had not been able to afford college. And he told me when this church gave him the doctorate."

"To my knowledge, James never took those courses. He told me De Cordova was giving him an honorary doctorate. I was in fairly close contact with James from '93 thru '95."

OldSkool, I think this is very fitting for About The Way. If you take the time to research James you will see his tactics are not so very different from the ones we saw in TWI. The lying, thieving, manipulating, even adultery. Oh and the wordsmithing to make himself sound scholarly - it really is straining at gnats, just like we experienced in TWI.

In some ways, he is even better at it than Martindale was. But, like many who are corrupt, his need for control and his greed eventually get the better of him. Hence, the people he hand picked as leaders in his own religious sect kicked him out.

Check out the links, read the ones Geisha posted in the other thread. What you will begin to see is a pattern. He researches his mark, he did it with the Messianic Jews who eventually kicked him out. He did it with the Mormons. Now he is here researching TWI.

Check out some of the threads in doctrinal if you want to see more. Interestingly, I confronted him on an error wherein he essentially stated that all are required to attend the synogogue weekly for the reading of the Torah. When I pointed out that even the Jewish people are under no such obligation and that synogogues and even the Temple did not exist when the Mosaic Laws were given, he decided he no longer wished to participate in the doctrinal forum.

He is here to peddle his wares. He will research his mark, but when he is proven to be the con man he is, he will leave.

Those are my opinions. Take em or leave em, it is really up to you. But, forewarned is forearmed.

Not going to debate doctrine here. I will say that Rabbinic Judaism teaches that we fulfill the commandments to keep the Shabbat holy, remember the Shabbat and have a holy convocation on the Shabbat though the synagogue service.

I was never kicked out of the Messianic congregation I belonged to in the 1980's, I chose to leave because the leader exercised unbiblical control over the congregation (familiar to some of you I am sure).

I have also not been "kicked out of" any Nazarene Jewish group. A small group of elders who had already be stripped of their positions broke off and created their own "splinter group" which of course they insist is the original. The splinter group has since faded away, it has no member congregations, has held no conferences, published no books or pamphlets etc. over the years since they broke away. Meanwhile the International Nazarene Beit Din and Worldwide Nazarene Assembly of Elohim has canonized scriptures, passed resolutions, passed halachot, planted congregations worldwide, held conferences, published books, produced broadcast radio shows, taught free Bible Correspondence Courses, taught advanced Yeshiva courses and even fought and settled a lawsuit with TWI.

Calling this even a "split" might be an exaggeration. It would be more accurate to say that a group of elders left intending to create a splinter group and failed.

Actually I was quiet here posting only occasionally for months, because I was involved in a lawsuit and wanted to be careful in my words. Now that it is all behind me I have these backed up thjings to talk about.

Strikes me Abigail might be right - research your mark, then make a move.

James Trimm sure is starting a lot of topics here, more than any other new poster. But they are nearly all really long posts, excerpts from his other printed matter. Does not properly address points made; does not dialog with other posters. Others have complained that his posts are so long that interest is lost before the point (if there is one) is reached.

His "why I left the cult" is so very reminiscent of "why I left the church in Van Wert" and like tales. Not really about why he left, but about self-aggrandisement. Self-glorification.

Uh...didn't we all already sit through long and boring chunks of "theology" getting pushed at us with no opportunity to question, or to dialog with the presenter or those in the presenter's stead? Something that looked good until you started to think more about the inconsistencies, the things that weren't explained satisfactorily? Didn't we get beaten into submission once already?

Oh lordy me...I greeted a wannabe MoG, not met him before, who buttonholed me and gobbled on and on at me for 25 or 30 minutes without a single acknowledgment of me, or my greeting, or a very minor point I'd made about an error in grammar that he had repeated from PFAL. I let him go on so long just to see if he would ever pause for breath. After that 25 or 30 minutes it was obvious he was never going to respond to me...so I got up and walked away, probably quite rudely, but how rude is it to gobble on and on like that? He is now "ordained" by CFFM and has his own "ministry." (Twinky runs away holding head in hands.)

And is James doing anything different?

There's a name for someone who just preaches at you and doesn't respond.

Or that new person you just met at a party, who buttonholes you in a corner and you can't get away from.

Or that guy in the pub who just monopolizes conversation, never quite sees you.

Lemme see...bore. Or even, boor.

Sorry, James, if I have misinterpreted your actions.

And why, exactly, are you so interested in 'analyzing' VPW? Why are you (who had no real standing with TWI) so interested in picking apart a dead man you never knew or followed??

I have long been interested in Comparative Theology and so-called "cults". In the past I served as a consultant with both the Watchman Fellowship and the Reunion Institute in that regard.

I also served as a consultant on a couple of books about the Branch Davidians. A paper I wrote "The Place of Fire in Branch Davidian Theology" was cited by Congress in the Congressional hearings on the Waco Incident back in the 1990's.

Well after a good deal of consideration I am leaving this sub-board. I will still be around the Grease Spot for now, as the suit has sparked my interest in TWI, and many Grease Spot Cafe members have graciously encouraged me to stay. It appears that posting to this sub board would be of limited value. Part of the reason is that it creates battles on to many fronts at once, as there is no unified belief system of the members here. I am bound from cutting and pasting, which means I would have to recompose all of my responses, and I just do not have time to re-write what I have already written.

If anyone wishes to discuss doctrine with me, my email is cleartruth@yahoo.com

I may continue academic discussions of Hebrew and Aramaic NT origins, which I do not regard as doctrinal and which can only have two fronts, either the NT was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, or it was not.

This lawsuit with TWI has brought me to realize the value that several ex-TWI people contributed to research on the Aramaic NT and Aramaic NT origins. Unfortunately it was behind the iron curtain of TWI and as pretty much all the Aramaic researchers left TWI, they never reorganized or did any further published research on the subject on the other side of that curtain.

I would like to see that change. I have been thinking about starting a non-sectarian, non-denominational on-line PDF journal for serious Hebrew and Aramaic NT Origins research.

If you are interested either in contributing to. or receiving such a journal, email me at cleartruth@yahoo.com

Wierwille was hypocritical on this issue (as are many Christian dispensationalists). It the law has been done away with in this dispensation (or as VPW would say "administration") then the tithe has been done away with along with the Sabbath etc.)

(Of course I do not believe that the law was abolished)

From VPW's perspective, the only reason to teach tithing was financial convenience.

If we're going to discuss the tithe on a thread whose focal point is V.P. Wierwille, it only makes sense to limit said discussion to the tithe "as defined by the parameter's of V.P. Wierwille's belief system". Wierwille's belief system was built on a framework of The Bible, not Torah.

Wierwille taught that the tithe is a requirement for today's Christians. The Bible, Wierwille's reference point, clearly states otherwise. Wierwille went on to say that today's Christians should feel compelled to go beyond the standard 10%. Thus, the phrase "Abundant "Sharing" (or ABS) came to be.

Wierwille's plan, from very early on, was to use The Bible to create a vast base of people who would not only tithe, but ABS exclusively to the multi-level marketing scheme he developed, thus ensuring him a steady flow of financial gain. He stressed the (fabricated) spiritual importance of following this doctrine in PFAL when he used the illustration of

Ananias and Saphira's fate because of their disobedience. It was the groundwork for what has proven to be a pattern of subtle manipulation and abuse of power.

In 1989 I left Beth Yeshua Congregation of my own choice.

At the time I was hosting a Torah Study being led by an Orthodox Rabbi who had become a believer in Messiah. This study was being held some 20 miles from Beth Yeshua, on a night which did not conflict with Beth Yeshua activities and no one from Beth Yeshua (except myself) was attending. Stan Eisenberg (then the leader of Beth Yeshua) and another member from Beth Yeshua Congregation, came to my door as two “witnesses” that I could not continue to host these studies and remain a part of Beth Yeshua Congregation. Stan Eisenberg told me that if I continued to host these studies he could no longer be my “covering”. I told Stan that in Hebrew the word for “covering” is KIPPUR which also means “atonement”. I told Stan that he was not my “atonement” and never would be. I also told Stan that if I could not host a private Torah study in my own home without Stan’s permission, that I would no longer be a member of Beth Yeshua Congregation. The next day was a Wednesday and that Wednesday night at the weekly prayer meeting Stan announced that I was being disfellowshipped from Beth Yeshua Congregation (although I was no longer a member). The officially announced reason was that I had chosen to “seek [my] own way away from the congregation”. In a letter dated June 14th 1990 Kuni Beasley, then a member of Beth Yeshua Congregation, recalled the events this way:

“When Stan gathered the congregation to advise us of the decision

to disfellowship [James] Scott [Trimm], he was very clear on the

reasons for this action: Scott was in sin, had refused to repent, and

was determined to seek his own way away from the congregation.”

(Kuni Beasley 1990 letter page 7)

In this 1990 letter Kuni was actually writing in support of Stan’s action and stated that one of the key issues in my departure from Beth Yeshua was my challenge to “Rabbi Eisenberg’s Biblical authority as leader of the congregation” (p. 1) and referred to Stan’s “authority to exercise offices of episkipos (bishop) and presbbuteros (elder) of the congregation, and his calling to minister as the poimen (pastor/shepherd) of Beth Yeshua” (p. 1). He refers to Heb. 13:17 as supporting Stan’s authority and states that “Scott has a problem with this scripture” (part 2 page 13 n. 58).

Nearly two years later, on March 25th, 1992 Kuni Beasley made the following statement to Beth Yeshua Congregation:

“I am committed to Stan Eisenberg’s appointment and ordination by God

to be the spiritual leader of Beth Yeshua Congregation. I will assert that

no one else in the congregation has done more to support and defend

this over the last year than I have. I will remain committed to Stan

Eisenberg’s divine appointment as the spiritual leadership of Beth Yeshua

Congregation until shown otherwise.”

Then two months later on May 30th Kuni issued a written and verbal statement saying:

“I am a witness to the truth of Chris’ testimony.”

The testimony he referred to was that of Chris Ayers, another member of Beth Yeshua Congregation. The testimony they both delivered was written and verbal (they read from it) as follows:

Stan Eisenberg is in error and is leading this congregation in an

unbiblical manner. He executes his congregational authority

without being accountable to anyone. He quotes Hebrews 13:17

and demands that the congregation obey him and submit to him.

But who does Stan submit to? Who is he accountable to (1Pet. 5:5)?

All references to the congregational leadership in the Bible indicate

a leadership made up of a bishop, elders and deacons. According to

Stan, no one fits the qualifications except him. For most of 12 years

this congregation has not had accountable leaders according [to] the

Bible.

(Statement made Chris Ayers and Kuni Beasley at Beth Yeshua on May 30, 1992)

Kuni describes the giving of this testimony before the congregation this way:

On May 30, 1992, as the congregational announcements were

concluding, Chris Ayers and I stood up in the midst of the assembly

of Beth Yeshua Congregation, Ft. Worth, Texas, and delivered the

statement… This action was done in accordance with 1Timothy 5:19-20.

It was not pretty. Amid the shouting of the Congregation leader,

Stan Eisenberg, his wife, and various persons in attendance,

the message was delivered, albeit, after the written statements

from which we were reading were torn from our hands

several times by Stan Eisenberg.

And in a letter dated June 9th 1992 Kuni writes:

Stan is operating the congregation illegitimately… Stan operates

without congregational accountability, holds to the supremacy

and absolute finality of his personal decisions and imposes sanctions

on those in the congregation who question his authority or his

personal doctrinal position.

In the wake of this testimony several key members left Beth Yeshua Congregation including Chris Ayers and Kuni Beasley for the same reason I had.

I suspect my story is similar to many of yours.

Abigail disagrees with you and pointing out some of what you are missing and just plain wrong tactics.

I don't know who 'we' is, unless you think it's you.

Your beliefs are the way you want to see them,

and the tithe has always been voluntary,

as well as no set percent anywhere forever.

Nor do you see that any tithe is to help those who can't.

Uhhh... "tithe" MEANS "tenth". There are actually three tithes in the Torah (sometimes the second and third tithe are combined, since they are never paid in the same year)

It was the third tithe that went to the widows and orphans.

My view on this as taken from the Scriptures is at:

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-tithe-of-yhwh-the-cost-of-4

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-tithe-of-yhwh-the-cost-of-5

But lets end the doctrinal discussion. The point of this thread was to analyze VPW as a composite.

A lot like us, except that we didn't start a splinter group, we don't recruit followers, and we don't ask for tithes and donations. Just a few minor details.

I only recruit people to follow Messiah (i.e. Matthew 28:18-20) and "tithes and donations" are simply part of the Torah like keeping the Sabbath, eating Kosher and keeping Biblical festivals. I don't ask for tithes, YHWH does not "ask" for them either, He already owns the tithe (Lev. 27:30) as he owns everything (Ex. 9:29; 2Kn. 19:15; Is. 66:1-2; Jer. 27:5; Job 12:9-10; Ps. 89:11; 95:3-5; Dan. 4:7; Neh. 9:16; 1Chron. 29:13-14) and in fact no one is ever described in Scripture as "giving" the tithe, they "pay" the tithe and in fact when they do not pay the tithe YHWH refers to this as having been stolen form Him (Mal. 3:8-9).

I do not want to get into a doctrinal debate here, that is not for this sub-board. Abigail seems to be attacking our beliefs. We are Torah observant believers in Messiah, and Torah includes the tithe.

My understanding of Acts 15 is here:

http://nazarenespace.ning.com/profiles/blogs/understanding-acts-15

BTW notice that Acts 15:21 says:

For Moshe, from the first generations, had proclaimers in every

city in the synagogues, who read him on every shabbat.

"for" tells us what this reasoning is there "for" in other words this ruling in Acts 15 was given because "Moshe, from the first generations, had proclaimers in every

city in the synagogues, who read him on every shabbat."

If you are not going to Synagogue on Shabbat and hearing the Torah read and taught, Acts 15 has no application to you.

Acts 15 gives the essentials of what a Gentile needs to do in order to join the community and begin learning Torah

(details are at the link above)

[it's a demonstration of the calcification of James Trimm's thinking process that he

can't see what's clear to all the other posters, that is, the meaning of the replies

he's getting.]

Acts 15:1-31

1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.

3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.

4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.

5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.

7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

10"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

11"But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren, listen to me.

14"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.

15"With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,

16'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,

AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,

AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,

AND I WILL RESTORE IT,

17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,

AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'

18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.

19"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,

20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

21"For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,

23and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

24"Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,

25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27"Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.

28"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:

29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

30So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter.

31When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement.

[but would James Trimm ask us for money?

I mean "again" since he already solicited donations for his lawyer....]

If anyone chooses to read my PDF they will find that I was like a loot of you, I left a group because the leader exercised un-biblical leadership and claimed to be my "covering" (In Hebrew "covering and "atonement" are the same work KIPPUR) and the day after I left I was disfellowshipped publicly for the "crime" of "seeking his own way apart from the congregation"... in short I left a "cult" and was "marked for avoidance" for having done so.

I left that group around 1988 and I did not found the reorganization of "Nazarene Judaism" until 1996 so the claim that I split from one group o create another is false. Is Nazarene Judaism a cult? Well I could count on one hand the number of people who we have disfellowshipped since 1996 (nearly fifteen years). Our statement of faith is intentionally broad and short. We believe in unity on the essentials and against division over non-essentials.