TheHighWay

But for me the most freeing thing in moving on was the ability to look at an issue of life and honestly say..."I don't know."

Here-Here!!! --- It was a fear of "not knowing" that lured me into twi, so to now say "I don't know and it's okay that I don't know" is a BIG deal and VERY liberating.

One thing I have learned is this: those of us who were duped by twi were NOT STUPID PEOPLE. You are not stupid, I am not stupid. --- But you should pat yourself on the back for being smart enough to leave.

JavaJane, I'm so glad you made this point... it's a really important one!!

1) I tried to find the "real" me again by getting back in touch with my oldest and best friends from high school and college (pre-twi, in other words)... and I looked at what my hobbies were back then, my likes and dislikes... and I tried them all over again. Some fit, some didn't. But it was a really good starting point.

2) I intentionally looked for opportunities to break every "way taboo" I could think of... I used forbidden words, I thought forbidden thoughts, I watched forbidden TV shows, and read forbidden books, I celebrated forbidden holidays...

3) I wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote... on WayDale, on Greasespot, to friends, just on the computer to myself... it really did't matter: I just VENTED. So, think your thoughts and put them out there, no matter if they are unorganized or rambling or don't even make perfect sense. Just let them run for awhile. (It took me about 18 months of this before I got most of it out of my system, and every single conversation I had didn't make me think of something about TWI!)

4) Let yourself grieve. It's okay to feel hurt and angry and full of regret over the years and the opportunities and the "might have beens" that you lost because of your time in TWI. They STOLE those things from you!! You have a right to feel something!! That doesn't make you a bad person.

5) Forgive yourself. Forgive yourself for being human enough to want to do good in this world, and for making the mistake of believing in the wrong people. Con-artists are able to do what they do because they are GOOD LIARS!!! They are chameleons and manipulators who instinctively know who to prey on, and how to get what they want out of people. That is their fault, not yours!!

6) While you are at it, try to forgive the rest of us that were equally duped and did things we are not very proud of that might have impacted you in a negative way. And if you get a chance to talk to someone who impacted your life, take it... just to find some kind of closure. --- I had a few encounters that didn't end well but at least I came away knowing "hey, those people are @$$-holes with or without TWI, lol"... and I could then leave that part of my twi-baggage behind me.

Hope these thoughts help even a little bit... everyone has to do it their own way, but this is what worked for me.

THW

Is anyone in a position to inquire of the Doop family regarding Jim's book? It sure would be illuminating for so many of us to read his account of what took place all those years ago...

TheHighWay

The only thing I ever did at the Sugar Shack was stir a vat of applebutter for an entire day... didn't know it got used for anything else (but I didn't know the RV got used for anything but road trips either, back then).

My favorite little bit of double-speak? ... by local leadership: "Well, I'm not telling you what to do, but..."

Excuse me? You AREN'T telling me what to do? How can you even say that line with a straight face??

When everyone in the room knows that you have your head wedged so far up into my business you have to peek out of my navel to see?

When we all know that if I DON'T do what you are telling me to do I will be treated to every kind of disrespect, suspicion, and face-melting session you are in the mood to dish out!!

"Aren't telling me what to do" my butt...

Twinky, there were some corner rooms that were configured differently than the rest of the rooms. But I honestly can't remember if they were actually larger or just different. (it's been a long, long time since Founders Hall cleaning crew days)

And then, when the numbers were down (and money was down) and they starting insisting staff move on grounds, they turned these rooms and some of the married suites into "apartments"... yeah, right. Two rooms and a bathroom. Now, THAT's living!!

No, there is full size 2 bedroom apartment in Founders Hall. It's on the first floor by the west entrance (main parking lot). Perhaps back in the day, it was for the in-rez corps coordinators? But, h3ll to the no does Donna live how everyone else does.

Ed and Jacque H0rney lived in this apartment when they were assistant corps coordinators (before they started having kids).

"the long-dry water spigot from the old springs that suddenly started running water again"

This is not at all unusual with artesian wells. They routinely go through active/dormant periods at the whims of climate changes, nearby construction and other demands being placed on (or removed) from the aquifer involved.

Well... yeah... every time our guide would mention some 'sign' or 'miracle' they had noticed on the property my friend and I would surrepticiously look at each other from across the room and try not to crack a smile. Who am I (former way-brained cultist) to knock someone else's beliefs????

Yeah... I skimmed those who have joined that group... didn't know most of them but one face in particular jumped out at me from my past... not a pleasant experience!

Kinda sad to think that folks who no longer attach themselves to twi still spout its doctrine and catch-phrases and blather on about the abundant life and our father in the word... wow.

Makes me so glad I have moved on from that mind-space.

Okay... I, for one, kinda liked Rome City... (didn't like the basement but I didn't have to go down there much either). Maybe because living there was such a breath of fresh air compared to the gulag they were running at HQ.

And, I did get the chance to visit the place about two years ago... I was honest about my connection to the place and told them I wasn't there to cause trouble just wanted to look around one last time... the current caretaker gave me the grand tour, including the saurkraut tunnel. I took a lot of pictures. It was sad to see the disrepair the old place had fallen into when the newest owners simply couldn't keep up with it all.

But I am certain the tunnels in the basement do NOT connect all the buildings. There is just the one that runs down to the spring... aka the Saur Kraut tunnel. If you look closely, you will see the three pictures they post of all the tunnels are really the same small stretch of tunnel shot from three different vantage points...

However, the current caretakers were devoutly Roman Catholic and believed whole-heartedly in the sightings of Mary and signs they noticed around the grounds, including the walls that seeped oil, and the long-dry water spigot from the old springs that suddenly started running water again, and the odd lights and hazes that would show up in their photographs of saints and statuary around the grounds. They had been petitioning the Pope for some time to get the place recognized as specially visited by Mary.

Is it haunted? Can't say. Certainly could be with its long history. But it might just be an old building doing what old buildings do...

While TWI claims that the AEINT is “property” it is clear on the face of their complaint

that the AEINT is also doctrine in that it is “religious education material” of TWI’s “ministry” as

well as the translation (and therefore interpretation) of Scripture.

The 'fact' that it is ALSO doctrine does not alter the FACT that it is PROPERTY and therefore subject to copyright protections which you have apparently breached. One does not negate the other.

Okay I have a couple of questions.. how long after VP died was the Pop Paper read.. was it while Geer was still at head quarters or did he go back to Gartmoore and then come to Hedquarters to drop his little bomb.

also this makes Martindales demand for allegiance more understandable

and my second question is when people left after the demand for allegiance were they leaving to follow geer or just waking up to the fact that neither leader was who they wanted to follow at all.

And three how long after the reading of the POOP Paper before the demand for allegiance form MArtindale. I think some one on this thread mentioned 18 months.

Sorry for these but I wasn't there and it is all a bit of a muddle I think Wordwolf somewhere in annother thread posted a little time line thing but I can't find it

There are probably others who might have clearer knowledge but to the best of my recollection...

1) The Vicster died in the spring of 1985, and it wasn't quite a year later that Geer came to HQ (from Gartmore) to drop his POP-bomb... it's funny because doesn't POP say he should wait a full year to see if the BOT were making any changes? But he didn't wait even that long, lol...

2) Some of the people who left after the allegience letter did so to follow Geer (partly because they had been sitting on the fence between the two the whole time and just naturally fell to that side once they denounced Craig). But others just left on principle, because they felt it was wrong for Martindale to demand loyalty to himself. (of course, forgetting that Doc Vic did that all the time, and that Doc Vic demanded allegience of the clergy to CRAIG, and that as discussed here, Craig kinda had some good reasons to draw a line in the sand)

3) Martindale started breaking it off with Geer in 1989-90 I think... (boy the memory is going, I was even at HQ at that point and yet it all blurs together)... 87-88 first year in-rez, total anarchy, better watch your back from EVERYONE -- 88-89 on the field, the allegience letters go out that spring, our limb coord steals our class money (never turns it in to HQ). And I remember keeping a mental tally at corps week of who in our corps came back and who did not -- 89-90 Craig has drawn the line in the sand, and broken it off with Geer... taught the 17th corps

I recently posted that when POP was read I was a "Newbie" in twi... means new enough that you don't know much yet, and certainly don't know where any skeletons are hidden (in fact, don't even realize there are skeletons to find!)

But since this question got asked, we might want to also define "innie" LOL.... someone who is/was currently still active in twi at the time they are posting, or at the time being described in their post. "I was still an innie when POP was read, but after the Allen Lawsuit I ran for the hills and wear my 'outie' badge with pride."

I was so unaware of all the misdeeds and backroom politics at the time, it never occurred to me to ask any of these questions. However, once I started understanding more and more, the first question that popped into my head was "Why did Mrs. VPW go along with POP?" Was she hoping for Geer to succeed? She seemed to eventually back Martindale... Or did she really go along with it at all? Did she just 'lay low' until everything blew over?

Anyone know 'up-close-and-personal' what her take on all this mess was?

I remember leaving and just being dumbfounded....totally dumbfounded so much I would come home from work and sit in a rocking chair and just try and digest all of it....questions flowed through my mind...Did I just lose 13 years of my life for nothing...what about God now? What was true and what was false about the bible? And how could I possibly sort ALL of that out? It was just hard to process it all in my head. I was angered because I thought the best years of my life had been taken from me...I had NO IDEA how to function now. What do you do if you don't go to twig? What do you do if there are no advances to go to or Joyful Noise to listen to? And what about all those tapes...what would happen to me for leaving? I wasn't sure about anything anymore and when I was in I was sure about Everything... I had all the answers, I had a purpose, moving the word, and I knew My God....Now, it had all fallen apart... I literally did not know how to function outside of the TWI culture...cause now I was in "their" world...all the people we had blasted because they were not with "Us" Who do you trust? Where do you go? How do you think? Totally just crushed me.

So very interesting to me that this exactly describes how I felt when I left the first meeting announcing the Allen lawsuit, went straight to my computer, and tried to find any information on it that I could, and found WayDale. I read for a couple of hours, then just walked outside in the darkness, leaned on my car, and cried. Nearly 20 years of my life... the prime of my adulthood... had all been based on a hollow lie.

POP had happened years before, and I was in twi at the time, but I was just a newby, far removed from HQ, heard everything second, third, fourth-hand, almost walked away, but got talked out of it to the point that I thought I could help be part of the solution by signing up for the way corps. (big DUHHHHH on that one!!)

Me too. I think it's because the '89 purge dwarfed them all...at least in my tenure. April '89 LCM sent out the "Who do you stand with" letter. Personally I think he planned the whole thing right after POP was read. LCM began coordinating the Corps in '86 when the paper was read. In 1989 when his letter was sent, that Corps was graduating. They had pretty much been under his thumb for the past 3 years. The only people that were left were those he knew he could trust. So when people either quit or were dismissed he could replace them with his own indoctrinated people. I dunno...just a thought. Maybe he wasn't really smart enough to think all that through.

Oh... I don't know about that... seems like the 86-87 exodus was greater... I went in-rez in '87 and we spent the whole time VERY aware of the sudden decrease in income over losing a big chunch of the clergy and whoever they could get to leave with them.

Maybe Skyrider is right... for clarity's sake it would be better to group the whole time-frame of 1986-1989 as one big, mass exodus from start to finish.

. . .

A) 1985-1986, "infighting trims branches" as some top leaders leave or are kicked out

B) 1988-1989 lcm's "line in the sand", 80% leave as lcm demands blind loyalty to himself

. . .

This I didn't know, a doublet. I remember those years, lot of stick and spurt talk. My folks (current innies) don't remember anything different about that time. They'll even brag about it.

Funny... I lived through all that and somehow I had lumped those two situations into one in my head. But he's right, there were two separate "exodus" events... one right after POP was read and one a few years later when several people who had stood by HQ after POP decided it was time to leave.

Some had stayed because they hoped twi would right itself, But Martindale's "line in the sand" letter showed them it wouldn't. And others had stayed because they hoped to see Martindale fall, and thought they might grab some glory and a following for themselves, but Martindale's letter made it clear that he was solidly back on his throne so they left.

That letter was the beginning of a long list of "purges" that followed through the 90's... the loyalty purge, the homo purge, the debt purge, the full-time corps purge... and each one of those brought about an 'exodus' of sorts... some people being pushed out, and others leaving in disgust.

As I recall, when he taught Defeating the Adversary it was in front of a live audience (I was there) but decided to do the subsequent classes without an audience. That's just my rememberance though...could be wrong.

No... I think you are probably right, Oakspear... my memory for those kinds of details is just not what it once was...

I think that most of the on-the-field folks who still follow twi's lead do so more out of sense of loyalty, and a feeling of "there is nothing else out there" held over from the early years, than out of any genuine enjoyment of their lifestyle. That being said, they cannot, will not, dare not look too closely at the sins of their leadership or their house of cards "belief and practice" system would crumble.

I know I literally felt like someone pulled the ground out from under my feet when I finally realized that all those "uncomfortable thoughts" and "doubtful feelings" I had been having about twi for YEARS were there for a reason, and not just a result of my "unbelief"... I walked around in a daze for weeks! Even though I knew it was all the truth, I was just stunned. My whole adult life, 19 years, had been based on a flat-out lie. And that meant not only that someone tricked me, but that I was foolish enough to fall for it... for YEARS. You sure feel way beyond stupid when that little nugget of truth hits you. And it's very hard to face. And many people will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid facing that kind of truth. They prefer to stay in their comfort zone.

With men like Pl@tig and Greene and M@gnelli out of the running, Rupp has only to abide his time.

Okay... fill me in here... why are men like Platig, Greene, and Magnelli out of the running? Aren't they all still in high-ish positions within the walls of Zion?

I was around for the WAP class. I don't remember any particular point where LCM appeared to restrain himself, by biting his tongue or any other means! :lol:

Ditto, George... and I sat through it twice!! The first time was required for all standing grads. The second was right before I left twi, after having spent a great deal of time on WayDale clearing out the cobwebs. I volunteered to work the class so I could sit through it sans way-brain. I put a check-mark next to any Biblical passage where Craig taught one thing but that I knew from first-hand experience they practiced something entirely different... my syllabus was full of check-marks. (imagine that)

Twinky... I remember hearing that Craig started out teaching in front of a live (albeit silenced) audience and then decided to stop. We were told just what you were, that he wanted to focus on the 'broader' audience that 'would be'... But I suspect that even though they were told to be silent, there were some shocked and confused expressions in that audience that ol' Craiggers found distracting, and that's why he had them removed. Trust me, any time that guy could corral a live audience he was up for it!

It was spotless, I remember, but we had to clean it anyway... cleaning a clean car...what a waste of time and effort...and a waste of the believers ABS.

But that was the norm back then... had to find "something" for all the staff and in-rez corps to do all day... I spent a couple of blocks on Dorm Housekeeping duty and it was the same way... we spent the afternoon cleaning the same areas that the morning crew had just cleaned a few hours before. What a bloody waste of time, money, and personnel!!!

My description of her teaching style is still that it has all the personality of wet cardboard,with a chalky aftertaste.

Great description!!

In attempting to stay in power, Rosalie Rivenbark has set the stage for more disintegration

of the way international.

Interesting thought, that... not to mention with their push to be a "kinder, gentler twi" she cannot impose blatant control quite the way VP and LCM did... so she's a 'wet cardboard' leader in charge of a 'wet cardboard' cult...

Donna was nurtured and cultivated to become the wife of the pres, as much as Craig was nurtured and cultivated to become VP's successor... and yes, I believe the people at that level have convinced themselves they are God's gift and that every thought and utterance they conceive is blessed and true and fruitful...

They cannot see the destruction they leave in their wake, just like Craig still thinks he was called of God.

Pathetic.

Is it just me or does it sound like this guy spent his whole adult life trying to thwart the system, only to get angrier and angrier when they caught him doing it again and again?