Mike

Exy, Our physical location at the gathering together is not important. It's our SPIRITUAL focus and understanding that get raised above the usual earthbound 5-senses understanding. There's n0 mention of unbelievers being able to see a change in OUR physical location, or see US physically missing from planet Earth. It's the earthy prison, the 5-senses prison, we're freed from. Our protection form the wrath is not from physical removal, it's from spiritual strength.

TomT, I appreciate you honesty there.

Zixar, How do you know that there's been no change of administrations?

TomT, Is that the best argument you can come up with? Making fun of a handle?

Zixar, That verse doesn't say GOD can't add to His own Word! He did it in Jeremiah 36 too.

No Exy. I'm me. We went through this once before. I'm not Paw either.

WordWolf, Don’t forget to include Abraham and Paul in your condemnation. Romans 4:11-18 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. I Corinthians 4:13-16 Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day. I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Dear WAYGB, I'm bringing this thread to the top just in case you didn't see it yet. I really care deply about you all who are still in The Way International. Instead of trying to hurt your organization or talk people into leaving it, I'm VERY much into seeing you all get things TOTALLY fixed there. I realize that you folks have been reviewing the collaterals over the recent years, and I think that’s a great start, but the level of mastery that Dr. Wierwille told us to get to in PFAL mastery all to is far greater than a review. If you are reading this I’m sure you’ve seen my post on the Advanced Class ’79 segment 5 where Dr told us Advanced Class grads and students that we better increase the level of mastery we had then too. But just in case you missed it, I’ll make it easier for you than searching for it. Here it is again: “I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on ‘Receiving the Holy Spirit Today,’ and people, when you reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost to quote this line for line. You should have mastered this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class. If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it to where you understand the Word of God in every facet, in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class, there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.” I also want to tell you that I was not being facetious in my salutation. My use of the word “dear” is very, very sincere. I care for all you folks as much as I care for the people here. We were ALL gathered together by God Almighty into the PFAL class. The adversary has thrown us ALL for a terrible loop these past 20 years. Please give my BEST regards to President Rivenbark and the other leaders there. I well remember Rosalie from the late Seventies when I worked there at HQ. This wont help my relations here at the Grease Spot Cafe at all, but I want to say here anyway that I always liked her, and I also always liked her voice and accent. Southern accents are like music to me. I also think that Rosalie’s SNS teaching in the late or mid 80’s about her family was very good and touching. I long to be together with you all someday SOON! It’s not too late for all us grads to FINALLY obey our father in the Word and come back to PFAL and master it. Agape, Mike

......Blub!

Rafael, are you going to have a section for the dissenting minority? Rafael wrote: “There's still, what, 17 or 18 cracks in that precioussssss foundation? According to Wierwille, the existence of any ONE of those cracks sends your whole set of books crumbling to pieces. Oh, but that's right, you've learned how to make those cracks evaporate.” Rafael, I’ve seen cracks LIKE these before, years ago, that turned out to be painted on the Good Ship Artios, like the fake stripes they paint on frozen barbecue TV dinners. Evaporate is a good term to describe how quickly end effortlessly some took care of themselves as I read the material more, and with meekness, willingness to learn. Give you an example: the “needs and wants” verse, Matt 18:19 that bothered a lot of people on page 20 of PFAL. One day I was reading and noticed that Dr never says that this verse proves “needs and wants” in the teaching. It LOOKS like he’s doing that on many cursory readings, but after a while it becomes clear that something different is being said. Dr’s citing of that verse is not to prove the origins of what he was teaching, but to ILLUSTRATE one aspect of what he was teaching. The verse, if taken as a derivative proof of Dr’s statements, appears as an error. The verse, if taken as an illustration of Dr’s statements, the error evaporates. The surety of the cracks you speak of is in the eyes of the painters of the “cracks.” Before I mothball this ship, I’d get a team of inspectors who have no paint or brushes in their motivations. Come sail away with me!

JerryB, you wrote: “You speak of having a book that teaches all about the manifestations and "the power". People don't get spiritual power from books Mike. They receive it from God by Jesus Christ as someone ministers it to them.” Jerry, how did Jesus Christ get the power? For the first 30 years of his life it was from the scrolls. THEN, after he was 30 it was from that foundation of writings, PLUS spirit, that he manifested God’s loving power. I agree that people in general “receive it from God by Jesus Christ as someone ministers it to them.” But God CAN also minister to someone via the written words of one of his ministers as well. That’s what the whole idea of God’s written Word is all about. I have a very well balanced life, most of which takes place outside the reach of a book. For every hour I’m at this computer screen I’m not in a book, so you need not fear for me imbalancing my life. I see the need to go beyond a book, and I do it LOTS, but I also see the crucial need for a written standard to guide through the minefield of counterfeits. I am greatly enriched by writings that God had His hand in producing, like He hasn’t been able to since the first century. Yes, I Do SPEAK of a book, a set of books, that were addressed to a specific group of people, grads, and that are pretty special, because they are a God-provided foundation from which to build more power to help others live a comfortable and a spiritually abundant life. Jerry, your pitch for me to sign your green card was just as I had predicted: NOT worth betting my life on. I’ve placed my bet. Almost thou persuasdest me to abandon PFAL... NOT! [This message was edited by Mike on January 30, 2003 at 22:26.]

Rafael Wrote: “Now, Mike, I'll agree with Mark on this: it's time to either apply your method to the errors we've identified, or stop interrupting the conversation.” I agree. I’ve said my peace here. I have been collecting data on a few AEs from this thread, but each one is only in the early stages of development. Who knows how fast any one will proceed. Everyone here knows by now that it’s my policy to place the processing of these AEs (ACs from my perspective) way low on my priority list. All of life is punctuated with decisions as to what is NOT going to get done. Cranking away at these AEs, at the expense of the pure pleasure of reading PFAL, is folly in my book. There was a time when I did this kind of cranking, long before many of you ever took PFAL, but that’s over for me. I can bow out (again) now, and thank everyone for tolerating my envelope pushing. We did get some things discussed and I’m thankful. I’m moving on to other threads, but who knows when I’ll be called back. Happy traaaaaaaaails to YOU! Until we meeet AGAIN. Happy traaaaaaaaails to YOU! Keep smiling on till THEN. Happy traaaaaaaaails to..... er oops.. .... JerryB, I forgot you. Let’s just do this quick as possible, and try to not respond so strongly that you drag me right back into the thread by my belt loops. Oky doky? You wrote: “Mike, would you tell a man who'd been saved or even physically healed in a tent revival that he shouldn't reconsider some of what he'd already learned, just because he'd gotten some benefit from his religion? I doubt it. You would "witness " to him, telling him that there are more benefits, more truth, more joy, more peace available to him if he will only trust GOD to continue to bless him as he grows beyond his past experience. That's all we're asking you to do.” I think I see the logic of your question. If I get this wrong, just e-mail me and we can hash it out without derailing the thread. Here’s what I see you are asking me. First off, I agree with your premise. If the doors were open to witness to the man you open with, I would surely let him know that blessed as he was, there was still much more to receive IF HE WANTS IT. I would show him “all the things Jesus did and greater.” I would show him “nine manifestations available to all.” Maybe if condemnation was still a problem for him I’d show him some other things. And so on. Figuratively speaking, if I see he seems interested I whip out a green card and sign him up. In this scenario I am the WITNESSER and the man in your opening is the WITNESSEE. Now, in the later part of your statement you analogously transfer this process, this scenario, which I agreed upon thusly: I become the man from your opening, the WITNESSEE, and you become WITNESSER. Using your exact words now, with appropriate pronoun modification in CAPS: You witness to me that if I abandon my loyalty or exclusivity to PFAL, and expand my horizons, “telling ME that there are more benefits, more truth, more joy, more peace available to ME if I will only trust God to continue to bless ME as I grows beyond MY past experience.” So I hear you and am intrigued. I ask you what “more benefits etc.” will I get from abandoning PFAL? So far, I see PFAL as the best bet for learning “all the things Jesus did and greater” AND “nine manifestations available to all.” AND no condemnation AND many other things. What will I get that’s better than these things? I’m pretty excited about what I’m learning about the “other” six manifestations in PFAL. Whenever I’ve checked out other places claiming to teach the power, they always prove to miss at least one to the big things I’ve already checked out in PFAL as truth. Your ask me to drop a hot potato like PFAL, but WHAT comparable hot potato do you have to replace it? Hmmmmmmmm? There isn’t a set of books like PFAL for learning the 9 manifestations in the whole world. I’ve been to many, many churches over the years. I know what they offer. How are you going to convince me to drop a good horse like PFAL and the power, and NOT offer me a CONVINCINGLY better horse? Jerry, I’m afraid your analogy breaks down at this point. I can offer the man in your opening something specific that will be far better than his current situation, but you can’t offer me a similar specific FAR better deal than PFAL. I certainly won’t abandon PFAL at your suggestion that SOMEWHERE out there, there has GOT to be better something far better than PFAL and the things Dr teaches. If you’re so sure that’s out there why don’t you have it yourself? Jerry, I’m sorry I’ve decided not to sign your green card. [This message was edited by Mike on January 30, 2003 at 22:32.]

Ok. A draw. I gotta go anyway. But what are you going to do if I someday comeback with one, two, or three ACs tied up in pink ribbons and all solved? Just wondering what if?

Ahhhh! Savor the agreement while it lasts! Rafael wrote: “No, we're not trying to get you to re-enter the suspicion stage. We are trying to get you to explain how you got out of it. You've finally provided an answer. Abject denial.” No. How I got out is by becoming super familiar with the material and it’s application. NOT super familiar with all the objections the devil can spit up and their solutions, but familiar with the text and it’s applications. Familiarity is not transmittable in the form of a proof or dissertation. You gotta jump through all the hoops yourselves to see my explanation like I see it. You’re asking me to explain it in a way that transports you back to PFAL by answering all the questions you’ve run into first. That ain’t gonna happen. For one thing, it’s an ENDLESS process! You’ve got to either risk checking it out, or live with your perception of safety, but with no hope of ever raising the dead or doing all the other things Jesus did and greater. You’re trading the SPIRITUALLY abundant life for a safe distancing from Craig and TWI-2. NO, my explanation of how I got out of the suspicion stage is NOT Denial Dodging. Denial Dodging is ONLY dealing with ACs and for those already convinced they’re in the right place. Denial Dodging only helps me from re-entering the suspicion stage. Denial Dodging did NOT help get me out of it..... Lots of reading did.

Rafael, I firmly believe that Jesus would drive a Dodge Rambler, because he and all his apostles (except Judas) had a Brooklyn accent.

Garth, you wrote: "So that's how you 'work thru the ACs of PFAL" Well, that's how I do it NOW, and for the past 5 years. For the twenty seven years before that, from 1971 to 1998 (one from eight is seven, seven from nine... Oops! Just doing the math..) for the 27 years before 1998 I checked out PFAL ACs much more carefully than I do now. I'm just past the suspicion stage, and I'm in the acceptance stage. You guys are trying to get me to re-enter the suspicion stage and you just can’t seem to hear me when I say “Been there done that.” There were times during those earlier years when I conducted my more rigorous examination of PFAL ACs but in the constricted manner I described in earlier posts. But before I learned that that method was best I tried many other methods, some closely resembling the format/style/flavor of this debate on this thread. I would go to trinitarian churches and go at it just like here, and lots of times they would trick me, and the hurt would take sometimes months to heal. I learned slowly the Righteous Dodge in those settings. I also did it with Jehovah’s Witnesses, and a few other local church settings. When I now do examine a PFAL AC I do it in a HIGHLY controlled environment. Like surgery. When I now do examine a PFAL AC I deliberately choose to err on the side of believing the class. At this point in my investigation, there’s a MUCH greater chance of me erring big if I lean the other way. If I lean erroneously into PFAL the consequences are slight, from my perspective and memories. If I erroneously lean away from PFAL then I miss the big enchilada! You guys lean in the way I tried lots for years and am now done with. I can’t blame you for wanting (you older grads I can) to err in the side of your perceived safety zone. If you have to err, you asses the greater risk as getting sucked back into a huge mess. I see going back to PFAL as real good so I buy a different insurance policy. I didn’t get stung as bad as you TWI-2 refugees. And I realize some of TWI-1 latecomers or those unlucky to have been introduced to PFAL by a screw-up were hit had too. But those grads mature enough to be in leadership positions by ’82 or ’85 I think you’re forgetting your calling and the proofs God wrought in your lives via PFAL. Try to remember the good old days when it was fresh. That’s what coming back to the books does. It’s fresh learning in thi books, assuming you come to learn, that’s coach-able, meek. Just the books not the bs.

Rafael, I don’t plan on accusing anyone of having a closed mind. HONEST! Not a fully closed mind, nor the more likely partially closed mind. I openly admit that on some issues I have closed my mind. I openly admit that in some issues I have opened my mind. The debate is centered on, or SHOULD be centered on WHICH issues are open and WHICH are closed. I don’t plan on accusing a person of closing their mind on any issue. I plan to address “the which should be open which should be closed” story, and in so I may accuse THE ARGUMENT of my debate partner as being in the wrong. I just don’t think of a closed mind as SIN. I do remember the yucky TWI verbal tradition developing to a point once where if you said in front a Corps corpse the phrase “opened my mind” any one of a wide range of retaliatory behaviors would be enacted by said corpseman, often as if they were reading their lines out of a syllabus outline sheet. There was a time and place when an open mind was SIN! But that was part of that yucky TWI verbal tradition that grew and grew. Dr fought it. It’s in the record. I got refs. Can e-mail soon, post later. Time short now. Both open and closed mind modes are essential in life. The Bereans had an open mind, at the right time and place. Jesus is often displaying a tightly closed, deliberately closed mind, and he was right in doing so! It’s all in which and when and where our minds need to accurately decide: open or close? No accusations from me, Rafael. Promise Bye, I gotta go for a few hours. Maybe I'll just read a few more posts first... Nahhhh I can't allow myself to get sucked in .... to long....

Steve Lortz, I'll bet (a small amount) that those manuals or courses had at least ONE horror picture flashed in your face of a nuclear accident victim. Maybe more. Stories and other anecdotal info, even live visits from victims, that DRIVE HOME the need to build that calculation foundation. I worked in an atom smasher and I heard ALL the stories. It was never a page or passage in the saftey manuals that would get my adrenalin rushing to make EXTRA SURE everything was safe. It was the stories.

Zixar, I'm learning the things that I missed 20 and 30 years ago. My needs then were different. My wants then were different. My background and foundation back then were different. Therefore, just from this analysis, there will be new learning. not just for me but for ANYONE who comes back to the pure PFAL writings, minus the TWI bs. THEN, in addition to the above described new learning, there's also the HIDDEN things Dr and God put in ther designed to be found and utilized in this post-ministry situation. LOTS of GOOD learning is promised to those who come back to PFAL.

troubledwine, The best I understand my own stand (Hey! at least I'm honest!) on this is to say I regard the PFAL writings as THE reformatting of God's Word, performed by God Himself. God abandoned the first format of His Word, the stars, because of the intense corruptions that crept in. He reformatted to stone/paper/whatever in Moses' time. Could anyone still read the stars then? Yes, but God's support shifted to the scrolls, God’s activity was with Moses in getting it into writing. The last people I am aware of who could RECEIVE the revelation of the stars were the maji. If some were to say "Let's go back to the original star format, and find our guidance there," I'd say "No thanks. I'll stick to working where God is at work." This also applies to the received texts. They are works of men. They are a scholarly attempt to reconstruct the originals AND to translate to new languages and cultures. It's a HUGE job, fraught with error. I prefer to work where I see God at work, and I SAW God at work in Dr's ministry in PFAL, along with the devil sticking his hand in the TWI verbal tradition wherever possible and in the behavior of us people... even Dr's at times. YET I SAW GOD ATR WORK! No one can take that back from me, and I won’t let anyone talk me out of it. A closed mind is GOOD at the proper times and places. This is one such place and time. I think that all the errors you all see there will evaporate as you change your perspective. This takes time, though. ****************************************************************************** One more item, not necessary addressed to troubledwine, though. Yesterday, there was a big song and dance when I admitted to dodging close direct confrontations with PFAL difficulties. If you had been reading my posts closer you would have spotted my admission earlier. I firmly believe the right and proper procedure of a Bible student is to DODGE all Bible difficulties, things that look a lot like errors, and concentrate on plain reading and comparing and remembering. Such a Bible student may AT TIMES enter their "spiritual closet" and examine their tucked away items of difficulty. But in no way should they invite in Bible unbelievers, only trusted believing teachers or elders. If such a Bible student is confronted by an unbeliever with what they describe as a Bible error, the right and proper procedure is to DODGE. Witness if possible, distract, challenge right back, but NEVER consider the error as an error. I studied this procedure and applied it for many years. I now see it valid for working with PFAL difficulties. Most of my time in PFAL is wonderful reading and discovering what I missed the first time around. Learning is an exciting adventure, and it is truly exciting to meekly accept the ministering God can still do to us as we come back to PFAL.

Zixar, Yes, I have flown. My dad was an aeronautical engineer, and I studied Physics. I'm very familiar with the calculations there, BUT I think my trust in airplanes comes from sitting at the end of Lindberg Field here and watching hundreds of planes take off and land over the course of many years! This activity is a constant thrill for me, and seeing the presciion and the saftey record (one big accident in 70 years here) under these circumstances far outweighs the calculations I am also aware of. This heart activity of watching and loving is where I get the guts feel that airplanes are safe and worthy of my risking it all.

Dear All, I'm working today and am missing out on many post responses I'd love to make. Maybe some I'll get to tomorrow, but this one from Oakspear I can answer quickly now. Oakspear wrote: >When I first took PFAL, I caught a few of the errors that have been posted in >this thread, but didn't go nuts about them, because I fuly expected that the >class would be the fallible work of a fallible man. > Ditto with me. I also thought that some of what I spotted as errors may be me simply overlooking something. I figured that in time I'd know more and some would clear up. I was right on this, but some still do linger also. >Some of the things, like "God can only give or speak to what he is", I did >not understand, but didn't stress out about it because I was willing to carry >on without understanding everything! > Very similar reaction went on in me. For this particular item, in recent years, I have come to regard it as a revelation to Dr, NOT an extraction from the received texts. I now see how it fits VERY well with the existant texts. >The problem that I saw was how people, leadership and non-, often took what >he said as above question. Even ideas that you could prove were wrong were >brushed off if VP said it. His words were quoted as if they were scripture. >Mike is not as unique as we think he is. > Thank you for documenting this. I too noticed many flocking to canonize all that Dr said in the early Seventies. I totally resisted this, sometimes with a passion. I thought it a rush to judgement on the part of these immature grads. I maintainded this stance for 27 years. Only after this long time, and MANY learning incidents, and a slowly but steadily developing relationship with my heavelly Father... ONLY AFTER ALL THIS have I recently decided it's finally time to commit to PFAL. It wasn't formal proofs and totally spelled out logic that got me to make this decision. Nobody bets their life on mere intellectual calculations. It's a heart thing mostly, that needs as much calculating as possible for a foundation, but it's mostly a heartfelt guts feel that will motivate one to risk all. (This part is addressed to one of Gerry's posts too.) So, you're right in saying "Mike is not as unique as we think he is." There were LOTS of people respecting Dr this way back then, SOME going way overboard. I resisted this, but eventually decided to really believe in Dr's ministry after a long detailed survey of the material and its applications. It took me 11 years of pondering before I went out WOW! Many to most of those early, fast believers in "God's hand on Dr" did NOT do as complete a survey, and when the storms came they got talked out of it. Because of my survey and applications I got talked INTO it IN SPITE OF THE STORMS! I believe as others see the data I've seen more grads will COME BACK to God's Word in PFAL. Agape, Mike

It's TWO, TWO TWO THREADS IN ONE! Rafael, This is my last shot for today. You wrote: “Since you hold PFAL to be "God-breathed," I would expect nothing less of you. We presume you and Wierwille agree on the meaning of God-breathed.” No, NO, NO! This is what I tried to explain earlier, I DON”T “agree” with Dr on the meaning of God-breathed, in the sense that I have not STUDIED that particular subject out exactly. I have a rough feel only. I’m mostly into READING these books, not writing about them with great precision and formality. I haven’t studied this out to know how exactly I’ve lined up my rough feel with what is written. This takes time. Maybe a whole year! I’m not qualified right here and now to extract at once ALL the places where Dr uses that phrase and/or defines it. I’d have to gear up to a project like that and spend weeks just looking for associated key words to search for. I’d need to have ALL those places documented before even STARTING to work the subject. You guys want to dredge up from memory what you THINK are all the pertinent passages of where Dr discusses something, and run from there with it RIGHT NOW! I’m trying by example to teach that this is the proper way to handle both Bible and PFAL difficulties. I resist this temptation to rush to judgement, and that’s why I dodge SOME of what your saying, or ignore it. I don’t HAVE to untangle even one on these difficulties on this thread to proceed with my PFAL mastery any more than a Bible student would have to clear up all of Google’s Bible difficulties before proceeding with their studies. Neither do any of you all NEED to have all these difficulties cleared up before accepting the challenge to come back to the pure written PFAL, minus all the trappings, minus all the people bs, minus all the things that hurt us, and we can do it up right. We’ve all only winged it, and I am reporting that there is an exciting adventure for those who check this out more carefully. Then you wrote: “The most recently published one as of the time of VPW's death still contains errors, which you still have not addressed.” I agree. That’s THE acceptable way of handling these kind of difficulties. I see them get cleared up in the reading with respect and mastery process, and you want me to engage in the direct confrontation with vast disrespects of the writings in question? No way! The way I do OCCASIONALLY directly confront any of these difficulties, Bible or PFAL, is either alone with God, or with others who WANT to see it fit. You guys DON’T want to see it fit. I see you as an unfit research team, and I teach readers of GS to not engage with such unfit teams. I’m also teaching by example that readers and posters of GS who want to look into the challenge Dr gave us at the end of his life of mastering PFAL, they need not be afraid of the techniques used on this thread, techniques I think are unreasonable and unfruitful. I’m not afraid of your taunts to “explain or be befuddled!” I see many other options than the ones you challenge me to and I dodge with complete impunity. It’s my God given right.

I corresponded briefly with Jerry when he first appeared on Waydale. I double checked his website just today. It does look like a fascinating read, but it also looks in skimming to solve the problem by cutting out James. That's why I asked Jerry to tell me plain. [This message was edited by Mike on January 30, 2003 at 22:34.]

Raf rote: Contact me by e-mail and... Ok. I’ll take it with me to work. I have to leave soon. It’s not morning here anymore. Yikes, I’m four hours late for work. Oh well, that’s the benefits of being self unemployed. I gotta get going soon. I haven't even eated breakfast yet, take a shower, and check in one last time at GS befor dashing out the door to Kinkos. Zixar rote: If the "minority voice" would spend half as many paragraphs on directly addressing the topic as he does on rehashing peripheral matters he's already posted numerous times, it might help others take his views a little more seriously than what they find in the average fortune cookie, which, although banal, does have the greatly-admirable property of wrapping its entire message into a small enough space that one only wastes a tiny fraction of one's life on reading and then discarding it. Ok. I’m working on it. How’s this?