Calvin, Genevan Bloodletting, Intellectual Integrity and Calumnies of Blood.

[Cynic]

quote:

Originally posted by GarthP2000 [February 20, 2005 23:41 in "The Trinity has met it's(sic)match!" thread]:

Uhmmm, I think Cynic's upset. -->

quote:

In the past, you have fabricated facts. You have made assertions you could in no way support.

You mean like the fact that Calvin was directly responsible for Servetus murder? (Yes Virginia, I WILL post that here, and I WILL call it murder, despite your desire for me not to, as that is relevent to your accusation against me) Never mind that you yourself has so much admitted that that incident took place, and still tried to whitewash his reputation about it. Never mind that I *did* give you a link leading to a site showing Calvin's 'darker side'. ... Or, like Steve said, read your history, and no, church propaganda does NOT qualify.

One thing Garth has been doing is miscasting my confrontations of him over unsubstantiated charges and fabrications he has presented as historical facts. None of those confrontations concerned the execution of Servetus, concerning whose death I stated that I figured Calvin did have some responsibility. Garth likely well remembers what purported facts of his I have challenged him to document:

1. Garth involved himself with another poster’s charge that Baptists had tortured heretics, and eventually added to that charge the allegation that Baptists had lynched heretics and Jews. Garth, of course, did not cite a single historical instance of a heretic being tortured or lynched by Baptists. After I provided a link to a website indicating that there seems to be only one known instance in U. S. history of a Jew having been lynched (a man named Leo Frank, who was deemed, correctly or incorrectly, to have raped and murdered a young girl), Garth did not retract his lies and abandon his blood libel. Garth half-switched the discussion to Europe, invoked the persecution of Jews under Ferdinand and Isabella, and muddled the discussion in his typically dishonest manner.

2. Garth put out a charge that Jews had been hunted down for not being Trinitarians. I pressed him to document and elaborate concerning where and by whom Jews were hunted down on any asserted or otherwise apparent basis of their not being Trinitarians. Garth did not respond substantively. In a later thread in which I began rubbing his nose in the careless accusation, Garth responded to another poster’s challenge to produce sources for the accusation by asserting the reason he could not come up with a source for his accusation was because the factualness of his accusation was so well known.

3. Garth also made an allegation that Calvin killed dozens of heretics in Geneva. I challenged him several times to cite sources substantiating that charge. Garth provided, I think, three links. As I recall, two links merely mentioned merely several persons who had been executed in Geneva. One link did contain an allegation that 58 persons were put to death for heresy in Geneva between 1542 and 1546. That allegation was made in the form of a purported quote from Wil Durant. The quote appears in the same form on several Romanist websites engaged in making accusations against the Reformers. Judging from the edition of the Durants' The Story of Civilization in my local library, it seems the part of the quote that characterizes the 58 executions as having been for heresy was bungled or outright cooked. To begin with, however, I will spend no more time on the quote, or on the nature, numbers, subjects and actors involved in Genevan executions in the time of Calvin, though it is concerning these solemn issues that this discussion obviously must turn.

[Edited: Changed "between 1542 and 1564" to "between 1542 and 1546."]

Edited March 5, 2005 by Cynic

[GarthP2000]

Speaking of intellectual integrity, ... or the lack thereof due to blind loyalty to one's denominational orthodoxy.

Cynic, the only point that you rightfully got me on is that re: the Baptists torturing heretics, and that was due to me not having the documentation or well known historical facts thereof, rather than the possibility (and probability I might add) of such events actually occuring. But, I'll give you that point.

All the other points IS well known/well documented. And they belong to me.

1) That Jews were persecuted because of their religion, which INCLUDED their refusal to turn to Christianity, which INCLUDED the mandatory (including verbal) acceptance of the Trinity. Ie., no acceptance of the Trinity, no conversion. No conversion, Jewish person dies/gets expelled from his/her country, including their family. That is a well known historical fact, Jack. (Or should we ask any knowledgeable Jewish historian or other individual as to the verity of my point, hmmmm?)

So it is YOUR nose being rubbed in the truth, and that you weren't educated in this basic historical fact is telling on the quality of your education. ... Or maybe I should say the *lack* thereof.

2) Your weak attempt to play the 'Romish Mary-worshipping Catholic' card is just that: weak. Durant wasn't the only one who knew or bore witness to Calvin's dictatorship and abuse of power in Geneva. There were plenty of others, both Catholic AND Protestant, particularly those who lived under Calvin's thumb.

You accuse me of not bringing up my sources, yet you, in accusing Durant of 'bungling or cooking' the account of the 58 murdered for heresy, only give a brief 'it seems that the account was bungled or cooked' statement which is hurredly followed by a 'but I will spend no more time on the quote' dismissal in a 'can we get on to something else please' fashion.

Ie., if this were a public debate, my friend, I believe that the appropriate statement for that would be "Cynic got owned!"

I *still* await your effectual rebuttal, although I seriously don't see it forthcoming. I really don't.

[Cynic]

quote:

Originally posted by GarthP2000:

Cynic, the only point that you rightfully got me on is that re: the Baptists torturing heretics, and that was due to me not having the documentation or well known historical facts thereof, rather than the possibility (and probability I might add) of such events actually occuring [sic]. But, I'll give you that point.

There is an apparent lack of inclination in Garth’s cognitive functions towards knowing facts and communicating what is factual. Garth has not retracted his calumnies concerning Baptists, though he has essentially admitted he cannot support them. Garth obviously had no justification for his allegations, yet he invokes brute possibility and keeps his calumny somewhat alive, and even characterizes his calumny as probable.

Garth’s charge that Jews had been hunted down because they were not Trinitarians carried the notion that there was some pronounced Trinitarian aspect about the targeting of Jews for persecution. If Garth had any sources to mention, it is likely he would be talking about them. Absent such things as sources, facts and a well-articulated argument, Garth preened loudly and proudly and changed the issue from there having been some Trinitarian motive driving a persecution of Jews to an issue of there having been forced conversions of Jews and a necessary Trinitarian element in professions of faith that would be received as credible.

What should be obvious before we get to Calvin and Genevan bloodletting is that Garth shows little thoughtfulness or restraint in making flawed, and quite bloody, accusations.

My previously posted point involving Durant was that, barring wording changes in some later edition of The Story of Civilization, Durant was significantly misquoted. I should get to that in a bit and provide, hopefully, a scanned image of Durant’s words for comparison to words quoted as being fully his on several Reformers-bashing Romanist sites. Garth provided a link some time ago to one such site in an attempt to support an accusation that Calvin had dozens of heretics killed. The discussion about Genevan executions needs to be significantly deeper and broader, however, than a mere discussion about Durant being misquoted. Before getting to that, I plan to offer some first principles by which one might come to know something about and evaluate Genevan figures and bloodshed.

[Trefor Heywood]

Calvin's example is certainly one of the best arguments against setting up earthly theocracies.