Caveman

This is one our local bands:

http://worshiplive.us/music.htm

I'm not sure about 10,000, but from what I have looked into, I'm leaning towards the earth being much younger than most scientists say. The creation/evolution sites that I have linked to on my site would do a much better job at answering that.

I believe it to be about 6000 years old which would correspond to biblical record. Some have dated the Egyptian hieroglyphics at 3200bc which would predate the flood. I don't believe that to be accurate.

Though I agree with you that Dispensationalism is a false doctrine, it is based in truth. The truth is that there are two covenants, one of a conditional salvation and a second that supersedes the first of a full salvation.

I don't know of two different gospels. The only gospel that I know is that we were worthy of death, but Jesus took our sin upon himself and died in our place and then conquered death when he arose again that we might also live and reign with him.

Is this kind of what you are saying?

I understand that there are other discussions on this topic. Could someone please post some links?

The way I see it is that there is truth in the precept, but that it is only a brief overview. This class on "how to" simply did not tell us how to.

In addition to the law of believing we also had the five things that we must know before we could receive anything from God. For many people there didn't seem to be a line drawn between the two. There was for me, but as I look back, maybe I drew my own line.

To know what's available I think was pretty well understood, but to know how to receive it; things like James 4:2, Ps 66:18 and Prov 28:13 were not mentioned. It was simply a reference to "the law of believing."

How often also was what to do with it after we got it a fleshly desire? Needs and wants parallel was seldom practiced, and though God's willingness equals hid ability, our understanding or his willingness was distorted.

That's the way I see it. What says you?

You don't wanna loosen that sphincter too much, now do you?

Maybe we can spend some time with our friend, Captain Spiritual, and find out what the real issue is. Then we will have something to work with.

Or not.

Are you an inny?

I'm not sure, but I don't think the moderators were way corps ... I was evil way corps ... so you can send me nasty messages if it helps, but after the first few sessions, I will want to charge for your rehab ...

you seem a little angry ... turn the cubs on and drink a beer ... that's what I'm doing ...

you don't hate the cubs too, do you?

It is our wounds that make us cynical, and honestly, having a beer and watching some ball is not much more than a bandage when we have schrap mettle to dig out. Maybe we can spend some time with our friend, Captain Spiritual, and find out what the real issue is. Then we will have something to work with.

I think learning how to spell "clique" and "corps" might be a good start. Sorry, the proofreader in me was just jumping up and down amidst all this drama.

My apology to our friend, but shall I bring up the word "Spiritual?" (As if I have room to talk)

That nasty keyboard, anyhow.

What it all boils down to is that Wierwille claimed you could change things in the physical world, good and bad, by what you were thinking.(Or, as he called it, "believing".)

According to VPW, it was a "law" that worked for "saint and sinner alike".

There is actually some truth to the doctrine, but it falls more into the category of witchcraft if it is not coupled with prayer, obedience and grace.

I had a run in with the branch manager at my bank last week. After I called her on her attitude she apologized, and I ended up witnessing to her before the end of the conversation.

I also wanted to point out again that what people do in Jesus' name does not always represent Jesus.

It's not easy to keep up when you are going in twenty different directions.

Seth, I mentioned those thing because I thought I might encourage you to look, but is appears that you have already done that. I think there is more to look at, though. There are historians who record miracle healing up until the time of Constantine. I find it interesting that is was at the time of Constantine when they ceased. Some say that it is because the Cannon is that which was perfect (I Cor 13:10). I personally believe that it was the 356 bishops who he had executed were the ones preforming the miracles.

There are also legal records and medical records that can be checked into. John G. Lake was investigated for fraud and was cleared of all charges. Oral Roberts sent all of his healed to doctors for official reports. I am not real knowledgeable of these things, but I know they exist. If the Lord grants me the time to do so, I might research some of it.

You see we must trow away logic when we become an believer because spiritual things are above logic

but when we become an unbelieve we must trow away logic too because everything had to come from nothing because logicually there was nothing before there came even dirt

2027, if you had read Seth a little more closely you would have found that it is John who is known as Caveman.

And, logic is what came from the tree of knowledge.

Though there are conservative atheists, a conservative church would have no room for atheists. We seem to have confused the word conservative with conservative church. The two are not the same.

I believe I will look into what is offered on the subject of believing here. The subject is of interest to me.

How did the literate people of this world gain exclusive rights to God?

What about all those people who went before us and those who walk amongst us who don't know the first thing about reading and writing?

Are they just S.O.L.?

If the Bible is correct then God is merciful. I don't know what all that entails. Some believe that Christ died for all of man kind so all are saved already. I am not willing to bet my eternity on that, nor anyone elses.

I don't know of any of those signs, miracles and wonders people say pop up all the time in the third world countries. Is God camera shy? It seems by now we could have some video of an honest to God miracle ... limbs made whole, seas parted, ... it does seem some good things happen miraculously at times ... but it always seems subtle.

My arm being healed was not subtle, however, it didn't happen at the time it was prayed for as one would expect from what one reads in the Bible. It happened over night. Then again, I'm the only one who knows it really happened, and I can't prove it to anyone, yet I know it really happened, and my mind cannot be changed.

It seems that there are many things that we don't understand. We were taught in twi that believing is the soul source of receiving. I believe that believing is necessary, but I believe that there are other factors.

I'm sorry I don't have the video.

It may be there is room in right church for the atheist

No, that would be the left church.

who's on first?

That's right.

Can you make a frog or do you know anyone who can?

And your point?

for that matter, how about the "splinter groups"

We were told by Bob and Kathy Mathieson that we should tithe where ever the Lord leads us to tithe, and not specifically to their ministry. I think they are on the level.

Luke 19:12-27 would be interesting then.

Seth, I had to cut myself short Thursday. My point in part was that I know where you are coming from. The church in this country does not give us anything to hold on to. In Brazil, India, China and the more remote regions of Africa and Mexico they are seeing the signs miracles and wonders that are promised to us in the Bible, but not here. We are too smart to believe in that kind of stuff. So, what we have in this country is a false faith. We say that we believe, but when it doesn't happen we say that it must not have been God's will. That is a man made theology. It is because Americans are lazy. They say that they are walking by the spirit while they walk by the flesh. The Thing that most drives people away from Christianity is the Christians. They don't even know what it means to walk by the spirit.

BTW, first thought revelation was bunk.

There is, though, evidence outside the book, if you would be willing to look for it. Outside of spending the $2800 to hook up with Randy Clark and going on one of his mission trips, you could just study the historians; people like Josephus. These are people who did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, yet confirm the miracles that the Apostles did.

Now, as for me holding on through those 11 or 12 years while things were not going well: I had something to hold on to, but it was not given by the church. I don't talk about it much. It was in 1977. God spoke to me audibly. He didn't tell me to start a cult. It was reproof. I was having lustful thoughts about a girl who I went to high school with, and the Lord spoke to me in a very stern voice, four short words; "I DON'T TEMPT YOU." I thought it odd that he told me something that I already knew. I also thought it odd that he even bothered, because I repented only in word at the time. It was not until years later when I was able to start breaking away from my sin. But if it were not for those four short words (which also freaked me out pretty good) when I decided that there is no God, I would probably have walked away, and never returned.

Caveman

I'm not familiar with that scripture that says people will go to hell.

Can you direct me toward that reference?

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

John, the reason you can't convince me on this point is several reason's first it relies on a single source and cites no other sources, the evidence provided is anecdotal, circumstantial or based on hearsay.

Convincing the other person to believe exactly as we do used to be the goal. The goal has changed. Today the goal is that I just don't want to see people go to hell. This goal, however, would seem absurd to you because you no longer believe in a hell. In fact, in twi we were not taught that people go to hell. We were taught that the unsaved simply ceased to exist. I never grasped that notion. To cease to exist did and still does seem so absurd to me.

I still believe that we cannot loose our salvation. If I am correct, and Jesus is the only way to salvation then you are still saved, yet I am not willing to bet my eternity on it. If hell is real, I don't want to be there.

There was a time when I had decided that it had to be false. Things were not going well for me, and I looked at all of the promises that we were taught, yet my life sucked (howbeit, I was not meeting the conditions for the promises). It was shortly after you left Eureka. I blew the engine in that brown station wagon that I had all of that trouble with, and then blew the engine in my truck about a week later. I ha decided to give up on believing.

I couldn't do it. It lasted about a half a second, but life continued to suck until one day in 2001 The Lord said to me "Mat 6:33: You know this stuff. Why aren't you doing it?" That is when my life started to turn around. It was a slow process, but it worked.

I had a problem with not seeing signs, Pericles and wonders as we were promised in the Bible. I still don't see them the way we should, but I am seeing why, and I am seeing some. Big ones! on the 6th of November, 2006 I broke my arm. I fell out of the back of my truck. I got prayed for that night. It was not healed that night, but when I got up the next morning, it was healed. On the 8th I was working as a rodie for the Celebration band lifting equipment that weighed over 100 pounds with an arm that was broken two days earlier.

I have reason to believe.

Such as?

In a dig north of the temple mount they found a pool with five platforms. This was unheard of in architecture in that region. All pools had four platforms, yet this one had five. From John 5:4 they knew that this was the Pool of Bethesda.

This does not prove the Bible's spiritual accuracy, but it does have something to say about it's historical accuracy.

Hi again John, good to see you back around these cyber-parts.

I'm Atheist for sure, maybe a little Pantheist when I'm waxing philosophical but I definitely do not believe in god or jesus. For that matter I've done some research into some of the origins of the bible, and Moses well it blew my ever-thinning hair back to find out Egyptian, Sumerian, and many other cultures have had many of the motifs of stories in the bible, most notably the nativity virgin birth and death/resurrection, and Saviour stories. Horus, Krishna, Mithra, Dionysus, Hercules, and others. Horus was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc. The Greek God Hermes who was one of the "12" Olympians was known as "The Good Shepherd". Many ancient myths are source material for much of the bible.

One of the other facts that is coming to light with information from scholars researching ancient myths and practices is that much of the bible is allegorical astrological myths, or stories teaching astronomy. Which may be pure blasphemy to most Christians, but they'll never know if they continue to use the bible as their truth and use the same bible to prove that it, the bible is correct in what it says about itself. Kind of like asking a criminal if they are guilty and they say no, even thought they did it, but you let them go on their word. The circular logic of using the bible to prove itself truly boggles my mind to no end.

Yes I know I'm far from that wide eyed teenager that took the PFAL class in Sky Wood's house.

Seth

For me, it is just the opposite. The more I learn about the Bible, the stronger my believing becomes. When I see truth is all of those false religions, it reminds me of one of the devil's tricks: To be a good lie it has to have an element of truth. If I handed you a red $100 with a picture of my cat on it, I think you would know right off that it was a counterfeit. But if I had a really good counterfeit, and you saw some difference between it and the genuine, you might even decide that the genuine were the counterfeit.

Did you know that archaeologists will use the Bible to find out what they have found is?

Yeah, we'd have to give up the Sistine Chapel and Handel's "Messiah", but we could have also avoided the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, and about a gazillion "Godly Inspired" wars.

You seem to have succumb to the false assumption that all who said they were following God's lead were following God's lead and not the flesh. How can you judge God by what people do?

It seems like the human species is hardwired for it though.

Why do you think that is?

I think it's because we are made in his image.

Maybe you ought to ask yourself why you believe that there was sincerity at some level.

Did you know or interact with these folks on a first hand basis to make this assumption?

Many of those whom you have labeled with group think here did. Maybe you need to hear what the first hand witnesses can tell you :(

No, I didn't have a lot of first hand contact. I met vpw on several occasions, but not enough to know who he really is. I had heard about the riot act, but I'd never seen it. I got rather irritated with my WOW coordinator when I was a WOW. I got chewed out for everything I did wrong, and had no support. (It was kind of like having a mother.) I understand that this is pretty much how it was everywhere, but did not feel that this is how it was meant to be.

That's not what I'm looking at, though. If it were all about the money, why buck the system? Why not go with the most popular theology?

Probably there was sincerity at some level

but it was below several other levels ...

ego money sex greed power

then some level of sincerity ...

That's kind of what I'm saying.

Caveman, I believe healing can occur as a miracle, but also believe that God gives talents and abilities to doctors, nurses, and pharmacists to help in healing.

I got nothing against doctors, in fact, I remember the phrase "Whatever it takes to believe" from long ago. The problem is not with the doctors. The problem is with the church, because it shouldn't take going to the doctor to believe when you are a son of God.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Somehow we got caught up in the greater works, and forgot about the same works.