WhiteDove

I honestly don't believe this.

So many have posted negative comments.

Yet those who were ready to see, could see God at work during their WoW year. Some people chose to go out several times.

Please don't be always looking for the worst. It's fashionable on this site to knock TWI - and there is a lot to knock! - but there was also some good stuff. Musta been, else we wouldn't have stuck around. There must have been more people who had enjoyable or at least interesting experiences during their WoW years than have posted on this thread. Hey - some of you have posted on other threads about things that happened in your WoW year. And some of you went out several times.

Never mind the success (or otherwise) for TWI. What about your personal successes?

Oh, and yes, the video clips are before my time but nonetheless scary - aargh!

Save the nation - huh, where d'ya get that, Cheranne (barf!).

So ,we can measure success in various conditions....

Success for TWI

Success for the person (The WOW)

Success for others

Success for God

Here is a success story for one of the others,and for God in song

WOW Ambassadors

Dean Ellenwood

There’s a group of people speaking forth God’s Word today

They’re gonna grow with God this year, they believe and pray

And God will bear His arm for them, that is for sure

They’re our WOW Ambassadors.

And the WOW Ambassadors they work for God it’s plain to see

They do their best to walk like Christ who set the captives free

And they’re true believers they believe to give their all,

and then give more.

And they’re growing as they learn to live

WOW Ambassadors

Early in the morning they rose up from their beds they might have felt like going back to sleep

But they read God’s Word instead

And as those sunny words of life woke up their sleepy heads

Well they grew excited as they thought about the day ahead

And one by one their family well they gathered round to pray

And it’s always so exciting just to hear what God will say

Well that day was bound to be special to the people in that town

Well it’s a blessing when a Son of God stands on holy ground

And the WOW Ambassadors they work for God It’s plain to see

They do their best to walk like Christ who set the captives free

And they’re true believers they believe to give their all,

and then give more.

And they’re growing as they learn to live

WOW Ambassadors

Now early that same morning another man in that town had been awake all night

He lay wishing for the light, He was hungry nigh unto death to know the truth

He thought what’s the use of living? If there’s no truth to be found

And he found himself at a lonely end just wondering what’s the use?

But….. It was then that WOW Ambassador arrived upon that scene

He was on his way to work but then he saw that man in need

And he had the love to speak those words of life to that mans heart

And it cast away the darkness there and made a brand new start

He said ….at last here is the sunshine at last here is the son

As excited questions flooded from a heart held down so long

It had been so many lonely years but at last this man was free

And he’s thankful to this day I know because that man was me

And the WOW Ambassadors they work for God It’s plain to see

They do their best to walk like Christ who set the captives free

And they’re true believers they believe to give their all,

and then give more.

And they’re growing as they learn to live

WOW Ambassadors

WOW Ambassadors

Cost effective strategy. The cost of paper skyrocketed in the mid seventies.

They were paper back when I took it in 79 so I am assuming they changed in 76 or 77?

I think they used roughly the same paper in both, and it was a poor grade, but the binding cost would have dropped considerably in the hard cover and the gold stamping on it.

From Mike,No, those tracts were still being made available at ROAs through the '70s. I bought a slew of them there or at The Way East over the years. If "that which was greater" had come, why wasn't the "lesser" being done away with?

Besides, can you imagine Paul sending out the Ephesians letter as a first draft, to be amended later after they'd perfected it?

This may be a fine point Like you I bought a few at the rock, that I had given away or loaned out along the way I'd say up until 74 maybe. But I think Mike may be right as well they were discontinued , it's just that they had a stock built up and they discounted them out to clear them out.

I’ve toyed with the idea that the PFAL revelations were first discussed and hashed about, much like Dr says in the Thessalonians Univ. of Life tapes that Paul and Timothy and Silas hashed out Paul’s revelations before they were put into written form. This is NOT the dictation model of written revelation. I’ve discussed this here before, how in Psalms it says (with suitable corrections) that every Word of God is pure, words-of-earth tried in an oven seven times. That sounds like hashing it out, discussing it, editing and revising it until it’s good for consumption. Maybe those booklets were part of that process. The fact that they were discontinued in 1971 should tell us something.

We agree that the goal was always to have the material in book form. I'd say the fact that they were discontinued was due to the nicer book form being in print though, nothing else. Much like the the monographs went by the wayside when the booklets were printed because they were a nicer format. It's easier having 3 books than trying to corral sixty some booklets, the downside though is that I liked the booklets in terms of they were easy to slip into the pocket and read later as opposed to a book. With very little change in content for the most part as I said mostly the verbiage was cleaned up to read better. I'd say that we had far more than the Bible and the spoken class, I'd submit we had the books as well ,just not in as nice of form as the later. Today they are on pdf files nothing has changed really there either (scanning errors aside )but it is yet another advance in format. I can't say that I learned any more or different things from the book form as opposed to the booklets. It essentially the same info at least the sum and gist. I can't see where a minimal changes to make it read better would disqualify it from being in print as you state it in 1967. .

Let me ask you this then. You keep mentioning the lack of facts to back up the testimony.

Well, what (in your opinion) would constitute the needed facts to back the testimony?

Would corroborating testimony of like abuse suffice? Of Wierwille's attitudes regarding those who openly complained about said treatment? Of his "all the women in the kingdom belonging to the king" and like teachings that related to this kind of abuse? And other related facts?

It's simple show me a guilty charge in a court of law and you can pronounce a man as so until then they are innocent, thats the law.

See, I can see your need for facts to back up the accusation (Really, I do), _particularly_ if said accusations came from isolated sources or sources who not only knew each other, but had a high likelihood of cooperating with each other in order to trash Wierwille's reputation.

BUT, it's a different story altogether when there are hundreds, if not thousands of similar testimonies, _most_ (if not all) of which are given independently and from a 1st hand experience, much like any rape/sexual abuse victim would.

hundreds, if not thousands of similar testimonies Please .........

"First hand accounts are disputable ask any law enforcement officer , they must be tempered with facts."

Again, see above regarding the sheer number of independent witnesses.

Again, check with any prosecuting attorney, particularly ones dealing with sex crimes, as regards the number of witnesses against Weirwille as mentioned in Greasespot. I also find it damning that _none_ of the Weirwille family, nor TWI has _ever_ came forward with any defamation of character/libel/slander lawsuits against VPW's accusers. And suits like that are easier to win, since they are not determined in criminal court. ... Now why do you suppose that is, hmmm? <_<

I think we had that discussion here Some people are of the opinion that families of dead people can't file lawsuits.

And frankly, I would trust a jury consisting of Weirwille's accusers _far_ more than a jury filled with his apologists (hint hint), ... whether I was a defendant or accuser.

By the way this has nothing to do with torturing dogs which is the subject so now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Dude - you know as well as I that you are in a gray area now - Vic posited himself as the authority (in most regards) - please don't nitpick here - you know what I mean. While it is easy to pretend we should all eat off of the same plate etc etc - we all also know that is not how it works in life. Wierwille had immense authority - immense - and so for those who felt somehow obliged to "behave" whether under duress or because of firm religious belief - well you know that is a different sociological/psychological response.

Really WD - I endeavored to have a decent discussion with you about this - but if you revert to nitpicking I'll just drop this thread and let you go about your business - not interested in the oh too often p(ss(ng contests that you and others seem to get into.

Well we will disagree then because I don't see it as any different to consciously deceive someone to, do that which you know to be wrong is sin ,and sin is sin. If your going to hold one man accountable then you need to hold every man accountable for their lifestyle choices. Who decides who gets a free pass and who does not?

Simple. The answer is zero.

Why? Every time human beings have been documented as seeing angels, they always take the form of a human being. Therefore, you can simply substitute people for angels in this case, and ask how many people can dance on the head of a pin. Since it is not possible, the answer is zero.

Not so fast Every time? Really ...I know people that think angels appeared as animals. regardless people or animals what they appear to be is not necessarily what they are. Hense the old saying Things are not what they seem.

And speaking of juries and persons in related areas (ie., lawyers, judges, and the like), in many (if not all) of the cases/situations of the alleged rapes/sexual abuses in TWI (since you and I know that is what we all here are alluding to), verbal/visual witnesses (mainly the victims themselves) _have been_ regarded as valid and 'documentable' sources that have been validated claims, enough to make a conviction stand. You show any lawyer/prosecuting attorney all the verbal/eye witnesses illustrated here on Greasespot, and ask them if they have a solid enough case to present to a jury, and I'd be willing to bet even $$$money$$$ that _all_ of them would respond with a resounding "Yes!"

I never said that they would not have a case to present, in fact I'm all in favour of one .But presentation and guilty is a far far space apart. Do I hear OJ....... Personal testimony without facts would last about.... yep that long.....

You, on the other hand, have failed _miserably_ to prove to any of us here why all the claims of rape/sexual abuse are without merit (and not meeting the legal standard of proof), your claims of them "not being backed up by facts" notwithstanding. ... Totally. Hell, and I'm not even an attorney. (Are you?) But I do know, that if I were sitting on a jury of my peers, and I was presented the testimony presented here on GS, I would convict. ... in a heartbeat.

Now see There you go again ,why do you asume I think they are without merit? I don't recall that I stated that .What I said is they are not doccumentable. not the same.

(see above posts)

First hand accounts are disputable ask any law enforcement officer , they must be tempered with facts. Each party will have their own first hand story. rarely does one coincide with another. Evidence helps in determining which is truthful. we have no factual evidence to compare with the testimony as such it is simply he said /she said.

No doubt you would convict based on an agenda.

I don't see you starting WW3 WD. However...

Since you and I disagree on a number of issues - please do not take my comments as starting a personal WW3 with you either.

I think the obvious answer to your question for potato is rather simple. You know, as well as I do, that a significant percentage of people (I'd wager some number >50%) were wrapped up in that organization enough to feel guilty about NOT doing as told. This is not isolated to TWI - you can trace it to plenty of other organizations - even those non-religious - heck you can extend it to some 1960's hippie communes.

There have been plenty of posts here from people "admitting" to feeling bad about decisions/actions they made/did "back in the day." It is clearly not an isolated phenomena - and those who posted that thinking here on GSC tend to have a more activist mentality. I wonder how many people felt that way and just drifted off without coming here - without posting - and did whatever (hopefully got a life).

I have a somewhat personal perspective on rebellion within the ranks - since I had a reputation for it even while still in but I am not going to post it publicly.

Edited for some grammar errors

I can see people feeling bad about actions that in retrospect they realize better choices could have been made. I'd classify that as mistakes in judgement. I can't see espessially those attempting to live a Christian lifestyle doing things that are dishonest and know to be wrong. Isn't that the complaint against VP he did not live the life he spoke about. Are they any different? Were they the man they knew to be?

Well..............

In the interest of "factual record"..........you, WD, were incorrect.

It had been two classes ago from pfal.

<_<

But, yes................it's essentially the same class.

So which is it ? New or the same?

Indeed it was ,due to the facts presented ,not the distraction of a tie color which of course would not change a class it appears it is a new class, although one can argue it is the second edited. After all no new content just less. Nothing new per say. But ain't it grand when the facts not speculation or tie color show us the truth.

I suppose we can agree on this I bet they charge for it again to see the same class with the edited part left out. I suppose that might be the real measure of things, if they are letting them repeat the class then it would not be new. You can bet they would charge for a new one.

lcm's version?...... "Principles of a Believer's Family".........or close to that.

It was taped at Gunnison when lcm & donna were sharing things with the corps. Soon after, it was promoted as the "new" CFS class............but really pathetic. An audio class.

I had the misfortune of being the "class instructor" a couple of times..........worst class in twi.

I was embarrassed to even charge a class fee ($30) for this dribble.

Uuugh

Just a question without starting WW3

If you felt so strongly about this as you have indicated. Why did you instruct the class. Had I been so embarrassed I think one would decline to do so?

Were you honest with the class or did you misrepresent it anyway as something of worth to take.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I figured as long as the debates are going on, I'd add this one.

I'll need proof. NO speculation. If you can back it up with scripture or something from a collateral (since they have been cited as being part of the new Canon) all the better.

Hey.. if we're going to engage in silly arguments, why not make it entertaining?

Undocumented would be the answer. But since you did not try to speculate on some number as a basis for a claim of content or something I think your OK.

By the way I don't consider any argument to stop the surpression of truthful facts as silly.....

For what it's worth --- John J asked a simple question. Somehow it degenerated into a squabble about a damm syllabus,

and who got what info, and when, depending on their *status* in the ORG. To me that's a bunch of elitist BS that shows how *departmental* twi really was ---- nother words --- join the right group, get this info here that no one else has access to.

Perhaps a new thread should be started about who joined what solely to get *privileged* info,

due to their *commitment*, ABS, and die hard dedication to the fuggtard ORG selling them the

false *bill of goods* being promoted by twi. Anyone from the corps site care to comment??

David

It degenerated into a squabble about a damm syllabus because some people just can't stand the fact that any information put out here is questioned, and found to be in error. It does not go well with the mission that as long as it is anti Way it is good enough. It matters not if its truthful or not.

I reject that point of view ,truth matters and I will defend it. It was a simple correction should have gone unchallenged , much like the torture of a dog but some as I said think the mission gives them the right to make error palatable. I beg to differ. As much as I may have a personal theory that Bill Clinton was not president the facts tell us that he was. My guess does not make it any different.

I can't comment on how privileged the info was, anyone that sat through the tape could write down the same notations, to me it's a friggin set of notes. That's all ! But being in existence I must truthfully represent their existence all 34 pages of them. Especially if one bases an argument on the misinformation about them. It is documentation of my point as such needs to be submitted.

Sure you have, you've done it several times. We have had first hand accounts right here which you've fought tooth and nail (and danced like a whirling dervish) to negate

First hand accounts are disputable ask any law enforcement officer , they must be tempered with facts. Each party will have their own first hand story. rarely does one coincide with another. Evidence helps in determining which is truthful. we have no factual evidence to compare with the testimony as such it is simply flip a coin , I believe so and so. Testimony is always challenged in a court of law when convicting one of crime and tempered with hard evidence, none has been provided in the internet court here.

You even started a thread a while back attempting to make a hero out of a man who was convicted TWICE of a triple homicide - including shooting a grandmother 5 times at close range, who has never been exonerated of his crimes, that you claimed was innocent based on a song <_< :blink:

Well he is out of jail Yes? based on non factual records I guess someone agrees.

I 've read your (very selective) moral outrage concerning the abuse of dogs and animals, but little concern when it comes to the well being of humans --especially those that are victims of violent crimes.

When there is factual record such as in this case to make proper judgment with then I can have concern until then it is speculation.

All this *banter* back and forth about how many pages were in the syllabus for the class is moot point.

If WhiteDove has a 36 page syllabus, it existed. If Waysider has a problem with that, too bad.

Perhaps Waysider should go back to the Song Of The Day thread and post there instead.

Who cares how many pages were in the syllabus??? I've got the original 2 here at the house.

There's no God **** way I would want the other 34 pages here. So much BS, and no room for it here.

The CF&S was a fugged up piece of work that had NO MENTION of adultery in it whatsoever.

That alone should have sent red flags up to each and everyone watching/ enrolled in the class.

It was an abysmal piece of work that showcased docvic's fetishes to the general populace.

I never did get an answer to MY original question:

I couldn't agree more David

I posted a simple correction for records sake and as usual one poster wants to pick at the record, offering nothing in return to validate the claim.

I try to be very factual in what I post. Despite the fact that I just live in Kansas. Eventually some will get it that I do know what I speak of. I do so because accurate information is paramount to discussion here. Why anyone wants to argue in support of any other is beyond me. I can only surmise that the agenda must be right, is more important than factual record. that is sad.......

By the way I agree Adultery should of and could of been a valuable topic in CF & S as well as afew other things.

I just hope The song of the day thread will not end up questioning that BB King sang blues or something because of some agenda.

Now back to CFS.....The discussion.

Edited to add that in no way did I mean to imply(in case anyone thought I did) that Wordwolf was being any less than honest in his post . I believe it was an honest mistake in that he did not have access to the document to know that the two were part of a larger set of notes.

That said it does challenge and I believe invalidate his premise (based on his knwledge of pages) that it was short on substance. See below Quote.....

]It was the only class where 7 sessions made for a 2-page syllabus.

That should be a sign that it's a little sparse on substance.

In retrospect given the volume of pages correctly noted as to incorrectly noted as 2, it appears it had substance . If that substance was useful is debatable according to personal viewpoint.

If someone were using a naked mole rat as shark bait, nobody would give a rats foot.

I would...

Sticking a dog in a cage and poking it with sticks and laughing is abuse.

Yes it is ! Your point?? So is sticking a hook in its mouth and paws when alive, and dragging it through the water.

Using one animal to catch another is a hunting technique. People are only disturbed because it is a dog or cat.

It may be a huunting technique to some ,but it is illegal none the less among normal humans. That might be why the man was convicted despite his hunting technique DUH.....

Dogs and cats are two animals that some humans put on pedestal above other animals. Which is why this story probably was fabricated in order to get attention.

Dogs and cats being put on a pedistal do not change factual record.

Do you have have some evidence for your claim of fabrication? I thought not....

Otherwise we'll just stick with the factual record of the court case.

What am I missing here?

Let me guess The truth maybe?

Nobody that I know of ever wants to see animals abused. In my book its absolutely horrendous and inhuman.

What I really dont get is why WhiteDove goes out of his way to defend animals even in highly questionable stories but will dive through every conceivable loophole to pardon those who abuse humans.

Are you telling us that raped women are lower than dogs to you?

It sure looks at that way

First you assume the story is highly questionable that of course is your right ,however the facts of the case clearly show otherwise. There are none ,zero that show the case to be questionable. All of the officials and others as well are in agreement that it happened. Only George and a few others here have decided without any factual evidence presented, only speculation and theories just because they think thats not the way it happened are in disagreement. The official record agrees it happened and the party was sentanced.

Let me refresh your memory.........

QUOTE

Quote Snopes ....Based on a Reunion newspaper article which acknowledged the practice and reported the recent prosecution of a deliveryman on that island over animal cruelty charges associated with the described activity, We'd have to say that there is some truth to the shark fishing claim........

QUOTE

The French Embassy in Washington D.C. has also maintained that although the practice is not unknown its occurrence is not as prevalent as recent news reports have made it seem

In your letter that you referenced

QUOTE

Quote "We would like to emphasize that the practice of using live dogs or cats as shark bait is exceptional and isolated It was never widespread nor traditional but intruduced by ruthless individuals."

Introduced meaning that it did in fact go on...case closed

QUOTE

" The facts that elicited your complaint are the act of a few isolated individual parties that are being sought after by police and will be brought to justice."

Now that that is out of the way part two of your assumption.

What I really don't get is why WhiteDove goes out of his way to defend animals even in highly questionable stories but will dive through every conceivable loophole to pardon those who abuse humans.

As in the case of the dog, factual evidence is paramount to the truth. I have neither pardoned or condemned anyone in the case of abuse of humans. I have found lacking any evidence. Not verbal testimony undocumented by facts. As such it neither validates the claim or invalidates the claim .It is insufficient evidence to make a determination either way .It comes down to he said she said. As such I am not willing to make a judgment on a person for such a serious crime based on non documentable words. Some may choose to based on feeling or emotion, anger or other motives that's their right I suppose. but hopefully they will never serve on a jury with that premise. Again your accusation is unfounded I have made no such determination of pardon.

OMG!! Who Cares?!!! lol

In the interest of factual record here I do. It is doubtful misinformation will be of any benefit to discussion.

By the way I ran a few of these classes and as an instructor you did not even know who wrote what, the pages were mixed together and handed in , unless you had them handed in in the order of the seating arrangement it would be impossible to know who's paper was who's Generally people handed them in when done, not in seating order. I made a point to shuffle them so no one could tell. That's in a room with 10 people imagine a room with hundreds of such nameless papers. Impossible..... Look its pretty simple it's like a deck of cards each card say representing a students paper. shuffle the deck or not tell me which card is which student?

The only way International would know who wrote what was if the papers were collected and kept in order and then the instructor were to write a seating chart to accompany the stack of papers with each persons name. I know of no such cases. This is a strawman argument to attempt to make a point that is not factual. Unfortunatly for the straw man it was not well thought out and common sense can tell you it has no merit.

Okay I am jumping in the fray. actually the questionnairs coming in would have the twigs address on them and it is not such a big leap to see that they would have gotten matched up with names at head quarters... Did they??? we do not know but the possibility is still there.

Actually you are incorrect the envelope would have (if supplied on the envelope) the class coordinators address . Not a Twig address, the class would be composed of people from various fellowships even different cities as some I instructed did. As such it would not have all the various Twig addresses on the envelope. It would be impossible to match a nameless paper with a Twig even if inspector Charlie Chan wanted to. You could match a name from a class list to a twig ( provided that name appeared on some other form of paper such as a ABS report), but it still would not link it to 10 nameless pieces of paper in an envelope. Sorry it is not only a huge leap it is an impossible one.

Since none of the classes ever really were changed one wonders what that information was really used for.

I'd say it was used for nothing, but was available in the event a new one was planned perhaps there was one that never got done .Who knows? Not all data taken is always used.

Regarding the two different syllabuses.

IT actually is a totally different Class White Dove

I understand that to you, you had that information for the other 34 pages at your disposal...but most people taking it (The majority) would have only had the two pages..

And I realize this is a small point but I would venture to guess ..And it is only a guess that there was at the very least a bit of discussion during your way corps experience of taking the class.

I do not think the actual class itself was different but the information available to review and study would have been completely different, and let's be honest many people did study and read their, books, Pamphlets etc after they took TWI class.

It is not a different class it is the same video. notes do not change the class on tape.

Notes are just that, they can be short 2 pages or long 34 pages it does not change the tape by the number of pages. The two page syllabus is simply taking two pages from a set of notes provided from the audio of the class. The fact that you did not get the other 32 does not magically change the content of the tape. It just means you have to write the notes down or transcribe them for yourself rather than having someone else do it for you and hand it to you. It is the same material either way. The information available was the same for you to review. The class was the same the amount of notes handed to you were different. I never disputed that fact only that it did not have a two page syllabus. Just as there was one PFAL class and two different sets of notes for it there was still one class not two. one was expanded notes one was basic notes both were from the same material and class. one you had it all written out for you ,one you had to supply some of your own notes from . It's still the same class.

Another twisted interpretation of my statement.

Now let's discuss that point, shall we?

Maybe no one will notice it's a diversion from the original topic.

Perhaps you did not notice that funny looking little mark at the end of the sentence . That's referred to as a question mark it follows a question ,or so I'm told.

It is not a twisted interpretation of anything . it's purpose is to seek to clarify a point that is unclear. It is also not a statement it is a question.

You are clearly remembering a much different survey.

Even with just "x"s, as you say, it would definitely be possible to determine authorship by virtue of response.

Class lists were kept to validate Advanced Class eligibility.

It's been stated here, by first hand participants, that the Way Corps "Birth To Corps' papers were not held in confidence.

None of this excuses such a sorry example of a "class" that was supposed to be part of a Biblical research and teaching effort.

Clearly you are confused between two papers the From Birth to Corps papers with a name on them and a questionnaire without one. Whether the Corps papers were held in confidence or not has no bearing on another paper that has no relation to it. That’s a straw man argument.. they are two different things or papers as it is. It is impossible to determine from an X who is speaking on a sheet of paper.

Here let me demonstrate

X

X

X

X

X

Please kindly give the names of those responsible for the above answers....

I'd stop now while you are hopelessly behind.... and quit trying to supress the facts

Another strawman.

The essence of what was being stated was that the questions sought specific personal information regarding sexual activity..

The exact verbiage of each question is irrelevant to the larger context.

Wrong again someone misrepresented the questionnaire it has everything to do with the discussion, one can't discuss questions honestly that were on a questionnaire that were factually not there. It is fundamentally dishonest to make up questions that did not appear on a questionnaire and then theorize about them. Not that I think that was the case here I'd guess it was a case of poor memory. None the less before the theorizing gets out of hand it is indeed proper to correct the error.

.

The exact verbiage of each question is irrelevant to the larger context.

No the exact verbiage is relevant to discussion one can not prove the point or disprove the point when they simply can't even figure out the question.

edited to add this:

Yes, they were anonymous but HQ had a list of students in every class.

They had to keep that for determining eligibility for the Advanced Class.

So, suppose you had a class of 10 people, 7 were female , 5 of them were married and, of the two remaining single women, only one went into the Way Corps.

I think you can do the math.

Exactly what math could you do? You have a envelope with a class of ten peoples papers ,no names, you can determine from a class list at best, that there were x amount of men and x amount of women only. Which parties went to which papers one would have no way to determine. Even if someone were to enter the Corps program at some later time and someone were to dig for information, all that would be on record was 10 people took this class 10 questionnaires' were turned in who went with what questionnaire is not determinable. That’s assuming that they kept the class lists and each set of questionnaires' together which is doubtful since the list did not accompany the questionnaires' in the first place.

Oh and By the way they were mark an x questions so there was no handwriting to analyze . ( just in case someone might decide to grasp at some straw to further their case along) Real facts are so much fun....

Two pages or two hundred pages. It's a moot point. People, outside of that isolated Way Corps class, sat through a class that used a two page "syllabus". That is the class that is being referenced in this discussion. If you want to debate the value of the materials in the other 34 pages, by all means, start another thread and do so. Your continuation of the page count discussion is a distraction from the heart of this thread.

No it's not it is correcting a point made that was in error. Not a big deal but still should be corrected. Is it your contention that erroneous information should be used to somehow discuss the truth?

what I found "odd" was the inclusion of a survey, asking previous sexual history, if one had homosexual experiences, what they felt about abortion, etc. etc.

wherever did these surveys end up? I forget all of the questions.. maybe someone could post them if they know..

Just for the record their are 18 questions on the questionnaire NONE have to do with if one had homosexual experiences. the questionnaires were sent to The Way Int. the purpose or as I was told was to provide feedback for areas of future development based on participants answers.

Note from the instructors guide (all CAPS) THE QUESTIONNAIRES SHOULD NOT BE ANALYZED OR SUMMARIZED BY THE CLASS INSTRUCTOR. THEY ARE TO BE SENT CONFIDENTIALLY TO THE WAY INTERNATIONAL TO THE ATTENTION OF THE EXTENSION AND OUTREACH DEPT.