WhiteDove

just the two bolded points above, WD:

do you know that often people who've been in highly abusive situations have a hard time being "neutral", as you put it? the more deeply they've been hurt, the less neutral they are especially when they are in the process of coming to grips with having been abused. I know first-hand about how people treat you... like a liar, like you're insane, when nothing could be further from the truth.

I think you misunderstood what I said was no one had a hard time being neutral, we heard the good and bad, the point is it was in a setting of just talking,not at a place where the order of the day is some new accusation of wrong.

the other is, I'm sure there are a LOT of women that vpw didn't try to take advantage of, for whatever reason. molesters and rapists choose their victims based on certain criteria. it'd be nice to know when she worked for him, how often, did she see any of the women at the time they were with vpw, or did she work for him under other circumstances? see, you can't just assume that since your wife didn't get molested, that no one else did. lots of people survive being murdered by serial killers because they just aren't the right victim.

I have never assumed that,nor have I assumed that none were. What I said was none were documented of a crime. Period, and that is a fact. Until such time one has no basis to state one as guilty of something they have been found no guilt of based on what you read on the internet. Lots of things went on including the wife swaping . One event does not prove the other.

well thanks for informing me. how could I presume to know what you experienced, when you've refused to answer any questions? now I know you spent time at Emporia. how long were you in, anyway?

I do read, WD. I've been reading for some time now and what I'm reading is you telling rascal she doesn't know anything compared to you. but you never have, in all my reading, actually revealed what you DO know, although you've been asked numerous times. if you want to be an authority, then you've got to give your creds. getting respect ain't gonna happen by ripping into a woman and telling her she's nothing compared to you because she didn't sleep at Emporia for a year.

No I have never said that ,what I said was first hand accounts are first hand accounts if one can use them as talking points then the other can as well. She seems bent on discrediting my posts for something she does as well, speak of things as factual from others accounts.reading here and claiming as fact is no different than hearing something first hand and claiming as fact. If being present is the qualifier to posting then speking of guilt in crimes requires one to be there as well. if not it is not personal experiance.

Potato, thankyou for those comments about building our own foundations with our experiences.....Strangely enough Potato, Dove and I`s paths did bring us into contact with some of the same people.

Dove, with all compassion, I want to say....that I know how nice it was to be with John (since you brought him up) I was in that state too> I loved the Wiengarners that came after as well...I loved the work days at emporia, the work days at the limb....I loved serving as corpes spouse..opening our home to light bearers and visiting dignitaries...fellowshipping with the incredible believers....and HAD had that been my only experience in twi....I would probably be shoulder to shoulder with you right now in your defense.

However, there were other states, other programs, other leaders where cruelty and mistreatment occurred. I experienced some pretty awful things. I heard some very ungodly teachings, saw some things that weren`t right.

I saw a lot of the same side of twi that you did, I just saw other stuff that wasn`t as idealistic.

I don`t want to argue with you, I understand where you are coming from. I just don`t think that we can completely understand what the rest of these guys endured in residence, not having been there.

I disagree we have years of first hand accounts to verify what went on as well as personal verification, and by the way they were given in a neutral setting as matter of fact talk not in a site dedicated to anti way speech and complaints. I'd accept stories in a neutral setting far more than from people who daily rant about nothing but bad, it shows bias a important clue in determining facts. By the way I never said life was idealistic there, lots of s**t went on , that does not prove or disprove any accusations. Things that happened there happened, they did not stop just because one did not have a different nametag on. My wife worked on staff at International, she also did personal services for VP on the coach ,manicures and hair cuts so forth. she modeled before she went into residence so she was not unattractive. I have her experience first hand to draw from , our son spent summers at Rome City for years. and we as well going back and forth transporting him at times. I can draw from his experience as well. and believe me as you well know kids will tell you the straight up when they don't like something. Those are first hand accounts, not second ,as was my experience. I have lived in way homes most of my life, we started one of the first ones in Kansas working with Earl Burton, we coordinated the class work for the east side of the state, working with people from different parts of the country bet you did not know that KS had 10 Limb leaders in one year? We sponsored and housed countless Corps we were 45 minutes from Emporia ,not just once a year for a year, week after week after week ask Ex10 just while she was here how many came through here, and we had done that for years before. We housed the girl who was registered in the Corps under a false name who they moved consistently because her family was trying to kill her. They did not send her here because we were uninformed idiots. There is more but the point is that's lots of people intermingling experience , lots of first hand accounts I'd submit as much or more than one got in two years in residence. By accounts here it seems all one did was carry around a screwdriver and tighten bolts anyway I have experience at that as well.

That is impressive Dove, truly. It still isn`t in residence corpes participation. Which is what we are talking about on this thread.

No actually what we speaking of before the sidestep was your double standard of being present that you seem to require for my points to be valid . I have hours of such, you don't, you speak on internet stories that's your authority to your claims, Being there is being there, one does not observe different things because of a program nametag you observe because of your sight and experiance.

WD, I'd love to know if you ever lived on grounds at a root locale. that would give some basis for the authority you'd like us to think you have.

yeah whatever. rascal has shared a lot about her experiences, but you won't even answer a direct question about where you gathered all this wisdom you want everyone to think you have. you spend your time attacking, instead of building your own foundation for gaining respect. your experience wasn't the same, couldn't have been, unless you both spent the same amount of time with the same people in the same locations for the same period of time, even then it'd be different depending on who was in the doghouse for not being spiritual enough. enough with the high horse parade, why don't you just back up your own opinions based on your own experience instead of working so hard to tear other people down?

I'll say this real slow for you so that you can understand perhaps if you were not so busy writing that which you know nothing about you could read. Our experience as far as neither of us being in residence is the same as neither was. She has no more experience being there than I do in fact less as I do have hours of being there. Speaking of wisdom wanna match facts ? wanna point out where I have not been factual in my reporting of what went on? It won't happen. If her premise is one needs to be there to speak as she seems to want to hold me to, then she has no right to speak either she was not there ,nor was she for the rape crimes she wants to be authoritative on. One standard for all

you may have left twi, but it doesn't seem to have left you.

why is it, WD, that you feel you have to one-up rascal all the time? you didn't go through corps training, and her statement was correct. spouse corps didn't go through the grueling 3 years of slavery (my entire apprentice year was easier than the week I spent in residence), from what I could see being spouse corps was at the worst like being apprentice corps, where you live to do the leadership bidding day and night and constantly prove yourself good enough... yeah I can see that. BUT, you didn't get the in-residence experience by osmosis just because you got married.

You might wanna get informed......

I never one upped anyone , I responded to her double standard where she seems to think fist hand accounts related to me as opposed to those related to her are any different. They're not. She did not ,as well go through the training she is a spouse corps as well ,and no more qualified to speak on what happened there than others. Long before you or her saw the first twig I had logged in countless hours working and living at Emporia, The better part of a year living there. working eating sleeping side by side. I was there before the Corps were there working in about every inch of the place. From the kitchen to the print shop. I shoveled out the science lab from the rubble left there by the former college. out into the hall and down the steps into the dumpster. I cleaned out the back stage closets in Kenyon from the props and costumes there left behind, painted the mushroom psycadelic walls in Emporia hall and Kipp. Cleaned the kitchen walk ins, moved mattresses and beds, worked on grounds, worked in the kitchen and dinning room ,and a million other jobs. You know not which you speak of. And yes we sat in the teachings as long as they were because VP said we could. And for years after that we drove there to do the same on Wednesday Corps nights . I've done the same at Rome City although not as much. Don't presume to know what I have done You don't. I'd submit I have far more foot on the ground experience that Rascal has to speak of. Not to mention the hours of access to the tape library of Corps information there.

No, WhiteDove.......you were give spouse corps recognition, because you married a corps graduate. You were not a "program participant"..........hence, the designation on your nametag SPC_ _.

For the record, it is common knowledge to most that.......wierwille never embraced the spouse corps program. In several meetings when this corps issue was addressed, wierwille openly stated that the twi standard was for this four-year training program. Yet, like so many changes and growing concerns..........exceptions were made. J0hnny T0wnsend was an exception when vpw allowed him to be recognized corps. JAL was an exception.....one year as corps coordinator. Military men were given exceptions to head out when called into service.

Say what you want, WD......but you were NOT a "program participant" as rascal noted. You married into a woman who graduated from the corps program. Period.

Actually that is incorrect we participated in the program for years that is why we recieved letters when dropped from active status, we could not be active if we were not participants.

Why do you think that it was HIGHLY RECOMMENDED for spouse corps to eventually go inresidence? Why do you think that wierwille wanted JAL to experience one year at Emporia, surrounded by the corps experience daily......for one year? Why do you think that wierwille brought the 4th corps back into HQ for several months for more training?

You exult wierwille's pfal to the skies..........yet, you dismiss wierwille's corps program and standards. Why?

You, WD, are the one who goes to great lengths to explain in detail the letter of criminal law......yet, you sidestep wierwille's endorsement and value of a four-year corps program with two years inresidence. Somehow you tend to dismiss this with a wave of the hand. lol

With the putting into place the program it had VP endorsement. It would not have happened if he did nt say so.

You missed all those 5:20 am teachings in Emporia.....you missed those 16-18 hour days of teaching/work......you missed the time when emporia twigs switched dorm rooms moving boxes for 3 hours in a kansas blizzard........you missed those nights on bless patrol with only 3 hours of sleep......you missed the droning of sharings past midnight.......you missed the fire alarm alerts at 2:30am.......you missed the public humiliation of reciting retemories without warning.......you missed the hundreds of hours of setting up the dining room, or teaching rooms, or backstage, or cracking eggs at 4 am..........you missed the regimentation, the indoctrination, the yell-fests, and the risks on LEAD........you missed Lighbearers and trying to get a pfal class together in two weeks......you missed sleeping in a bedroom of 30 snoring men......you missed plucking weeds during your morning workshift......you missed the micromanagement of flossing schedules, aerobic points, killing chickens, cleaning swamps, etc........you missed wierwille slurring words on drambuie breath.......you missed hundreds and thousands of hours of manipulation, guilt and exploitation by not being INRESIDENCE.

Actually not, I experianced those those things I bet long before you did. Including being yelled at by VP himself. You know not at which you speak. I did not kill chickens or get aerobic points, It was not killing day when I was at Rome City, and If the sucess of aerobic points is the basis of the progam I think you are seriously mistaken.

In contrast, you walked up the aisle.....looked your lovely bride in the eyes.....and said, I DO. And, because she was a corps grad......twi granted you the spouse corps designation with stipulations that your wife would "raise you up to be corps." And, even then......MANY spouse corps decided to go thru the inresidence program together. Even in the early 90s, twi went back to wierwille's "original guidance" which was NO SPOUSE CORPS PROGRAM.

In conclusion.........let me say, in retrospect I believe that the corps program was much more an indoctrinational program than a corps training. I could care less whether one is or isn't a "corps grad."

WD.....for one who is a stickler on accuracy, you sure speak with broad generalities when it comes to being spouse corps. What gives? Are you ashamed of being spouse corps?

I have been very accurate you just can't seem to grasp it. Speaking of Johnny he once told me don't let anyone tell you your less than they are ,everyone gets into the Corps by God's grace. People live the program by their person committment not hours in a building sitting. A person can go as far in the program as one wishes not all training exists in a root local.

Which by the way I submit is a lot more creditanle as there is a name ,face, voice inflexions, and mannerisms to detect to aid in truthfulness, as opposed to a nameless, faceless ,screenname, where no tone or facial response is available.

Lightbearers?? People you housed?? Your spouse??? People you sponsored?? Work around root locals?? Been there done all of that as well. I have all of those people and experiences to draw on as well. I don`t think that qualifies as first hand testimony friend, certainly not something that you permit in any others at this web site.

Of course it is ,What exactly is it? their stories are as first hand as ones here, posting on the internet as opposed to vocal accounts are no different. If they observed it first hand it is the same. You post as to guilt of crime from stories here no different than stories of verbal account they are both first hand.

I have never discounted your first hand stories of twi. What I call into question is when you use 2nd and 3rd hand accounts to try to discount another`s experiences or testimony that you could have no possible personal knowledge of. That is when I call into question your experience and qualifications to comment outside of your geographic area.

I call into question Accusing others of guilt in a crime that that you could have no possible personal knowledge of.

Also As I have stated many times I have never used second or third hand accounts ,misrepresentation is against the rules If you persist I will file a complaint

"Yes they do being dead does not exempt one from accusation of libel"

huh?

if you're dead, you're not exempt from accusations of libel? I guess not, but I don't see anyone accusing vpw of libel.

WRONG. they don't have the burden of proof to satisfy, because they can't "accuse" vpw according to the legal definition of the word. vpw is dead.

Some states do permit suits for libel or slander to be brought on behalf of the estate of a deceased person in some circumstances. The definition of libel in Texas includes written words that "tend to blacken the memory of the dead." In Rhode Island there is a right of action if the deceased person was slandered or libelled in an obituary in any newspaper or on any radio or television station within three (3) months of his or her date of death. Many states, including California, will allow personal injury suits (libel and slander are considered personal injuries) filed by a living plaintiff to continue on and be passed to the plaintiff's successor in interest or personal representative upon the plaintiff's death. The plaintiff's estate may then recover if the lawsuit is successful.

because I discuss what I saw and experienced where I was as twiggy, app corpes x 2, wow x 2, way homes x 3, and finally spouse corpes. All in different states, under different leaders, through different periods spanning a decade in the ministry. Those are the things I personally address as first hand experience. I also discuss the experiences of those who have also posted here of their first hand experiences as well.

E

What I don`t do, is use 2nd and 3rd hand stories from outside of my experience to attempt to call into question another`s veracity. I believe there in lies the difference.

Exactly you disqualify my posts of first hand experiences ,yet it seems it is just fine for you to quote those which you were not present for. You can't have it both ways. None of the things you mentioned qualify you by your own criteria of being present to comment on rapes, You were not there You have accepted testimony that they were true I can accept the same from first hand information that they wee not if I wanted to. Yes all the way in Kansas. If your speaking on testimony is valid then mine is as well. I have never used any third or second hand stories . There in does not lie the diffrence,we are using the same criteria first hand accounts.

As far as being held to the same standard?? I believe that we were under scrutiny to preform to an even higher standard, always needing to prove ourselves. That doesn`t mean that we can understand or speak authoritatively as to what it was like to be an participant in the way corpes program, subjected to the treatment of those whom were in residence..

Of course we can, we have the first hand knowledge of a spouse that went through the program .and that counts right I think you said quote I also discuss the experiences of those who have also posted here of their first hand experiences as well.

We also have our own experiance working around root locations along side of inresidence Corps something I have logged in many hours doing probably more than you. My first hand observations are valid as yours from the sidelines. We also can offer first hand records of those whom we spent weeks with housing as lightbearers, as well as those who we sponsered in the Corps and lived with ,those are first hand stories just as here. If your going to admit one as creditable then you must admit all as such. So geographical presence is not required. by your standard.

WRONG. they don't have the burden of proof to satisfy, because they can't "accuse" vpw according to the legal definition of the word. vpw is dead, HELLO. the burden of proof is now on those who would accuse his victims of libel.

Yes they do being dead does not exempt one from accusation of libel

(how many more times shall this merry-go-round go round, dear readers?)

again, where does burden of proof now lie?

(and sorry you quoted this while I was fixing my grammatical error. I think you got my drift though.)

I was spouse corpes, and I don`t think marrying into the corpes counts as a program participant.

Actually it does ,we were held to the same standard as those who had benefit of training in residence. We were required to do the same work.

So what qualifies you to speak about things you were not geographically present for when you hold others to that standard?

you might need to rewrite this statement, it's pretty badly mangled and I'm likely misunderstanding it but I'll give it a go...

I don't THINK I established that vpw doesn't have constitutional rights, he doesn't have them. that's a fact.

no one is obligated to treat him with presumption of innocence.

yes, if he's been libeled, the person committing the libel can be taken to court. so, why, when twi sends their lawyers after every little church using "the way" in their name, do they ignore what you're saying constitutes libel? any burden of proof is on them, not on vpw's victims, therefore his victims should be treated with presumption of innocence until such a time as their guilt in a libel suit has been decided. until I see a guilty verdict, THERE IS NO LIBEL.

Those that accuse VP of a crime have the burdon of proof to satisfy. It has not been done Period.

I was thinking the same thing! or a merry-go-round. let's keeping pushing as fast as we can and see who falls off first!

doesn't it strike you as ironic, rascal? we could just as easly talk about the ranting day after day about crimes committed because we're always hearing about this alleged libel. I just want to know, what libel?

you might need to rewrite this statement, it's pretty badly mangled and I'm likely misunderstanding it but I'll give it a go...

I don't THINK I established that vpw doesn't have constitutional rights, he doesn't have them. that's a fact.

no one is obligated to treat him with presumption of innocence.

yes, if he's been libeled, the person committing the libel can be taken to court. so, why, when twi sends their lawyers after every little church using "the way" in their name, do they ignore what you're saying constitutes libel? any burden of proof is on them, not on vpw's victims, therefore his victims should be treated with presumption of innocence until such a time as their guilt in a libel suit has been decided. until I see a guilty verdict, THERE IS NO LIBEL.

I was thinking the same thing! or a merry-go-round. let's keeping pushing as fast as we can and see who falls off first!

doesn't it strike you as ironic, rascal? we could just as easly talk about the ranting day after day about crimes committed because we're always hearing about this alleged libel. I just want to know, what libel?

WRONG. it's not libel until the alleged libel is proven true in a court of law. the truth doesn't have to be documented in court.

You assume it is truth it has yet to be proven.

Why is it this reminds me of a traffic round about?

First, you said if there was confirmation of proven guilt, you would shout from the roof tops.

In the context of VPW

Then, when an example was given, you said the context was about VPW, not just any old guilt.

The example did not meet the requirement of the context of my statement

Now, you're saying it has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, even though that seems to be the title of the thread.

My response was in repy to shouting from roof tops, that subject has nothing to do with guilt or innocence, it has to do with using ones vocal cords to announce a message.

It looks to me like you are having trouble figuring out how to navigate the round about.

It looks to me like you are having trouble reading what is written but what else is new?

It isn`t liable if what we say is true. I have yet to see any of the *consequences* you refer to in ten years of people reporting the abuses that would indicate that the experiences related, the books written, the broadcasts taped, were not factual and truthful.

I`ll bet there are a good many of us that wish it all were a lie...that the mistreatment never happened :(

IF yep a small condition that has yet to be documented as true.

Testimony is not proof of anything?? Except it is admissable in a court of law as evidence. That is what testimony is. . . . proof!!!!!!

Exactly right it is not proof it is evidence to be considered it may be proof it may turn out to be a lie. If it is a lie it is proof of nothing.

This is just getting beyond ridiculous now. What court in the country does not accept testimony as evidence to prove guilt. No court says it is an undocumented collection of words. .. . until proven. . . OMGosh. . . that is why people TESTIFY under oath and the penalty of perjury.

Evidence to prove is not the same as proof. Proof is established when the evidence presented has been through the process of law.

Get a clue.

Good idea perhaps you should.....

You don't testify an accusation, you testify to information relating TO the accusation as PROOF of guilt or innocence.

Occasionaly testimony is all a Judge has to make a decision. . . guess what? It ends up. . . . based on testimony. . .

After the testimony is put through due process of law challenged ,evaluated as admissible and so on it is not considered proof when it comes out of someone's mouth it is yet established.

very weak example. there were no witnesses to the actual crime in that case so it will have to be established circumstantially and/or forensically, or she'll be acquitted. in the cases of excathedra and Kristin, the victims both survived to testify, so comparing Ms. Anthony to vpw is ridiculous.

I can dig you up another case if you would like where the victim survived, the point will be the same ,until there is a conviction the crime is alleged.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.

This whole thread is about the presumed innocence of VPW?

The context of my statement which you quoted was in regard to VPW. that said I have made no challenge to the documented crimes affore mentioned, I do so because they have been through the test of the law, a fair hearing, evidence presented and disputed and a jury of their peers has made a verdict. See that's how it works, then you can call them guilty.

What basis do you have for comparison?

In light of you having never been in the corps, it's reasonable to expect you would not see the connection.

Except I was and there is no comparison.

I don't believe that they've technically accused vpw of a crime, either because he's dead, or the statute of limitations ran out, or because they exercised their freedom not to press charges.

this argument is academic, since vpw is dead. he cannot be "accused" in the sense that you're using, because he can't be taken to court. therefore, no one has accused him of anything. however, their testimony IS documented. once it's published, it's a document.

at this point, in order to declare their testimony untrue, it would require taking them to court to prove libel. until someone produces a guilty verdict against vpw's victims showing that they've libeled him, their testimony stands.

Testimony is not proof of anything it is a record of what may or may not have happened according to the one testifying That's all. It is not considered fact it is recorded and examined it does not stand on anything until it is proven. Until then it is a collection of words undocumented. when you state that so and so is a thief, rapist, or murderer you are accusing one of guilt of a crime dead or living. There are those that think Casey Anthony is a murderer but she is guilty of nothing at this time she is alleged to be. Saying so does not stand, what stands is what is in the end proven. You can think whatever you want thoughts are not proof of a crime.

My post was in response to this statement:

"Show me a confirmed charge of a crime and I'll shout it from the roof tops."

The context was VPW.

There have been cases of children being sexually molested by leadership that resulted, not only in charges, but in convictions and incarcerations.

These are matters of public record.

Upper leadership made deliberate efforts to cover them up and allowed the practice to continue.

These things have, in fact, been documented on GSC, as I'm sure you're well aware.

And your point ? Have I ever stated that they were not documented? They were, and received results. Which is exactly my point

Anybody remember the flying monkey scene from Oz when they picked up Toto, unstuffed the scarecrow and picked up Dorothy......

Lemme think - sounds like way corps recruitment and the wooden spoon to me.

I fail to see any connection between the two, not even remotaly the same.

I guess that I don`t understand NOT being offended and talking about the perves in sheep`s clothing. It is unconscionable NOT to shout from the roof tops the crimes of vp and twi....lest people spend the rest of their lives trying to apply the foolishness that we believed was *THE truth* given to a man by God.

When people know who and what these guys were, what they did to our brothers and sisters, we are free to begin the healing process, begin growing again as people.

Without the truth, we are forever stuck living false teachings and accepting the blame personally for their failure.

Show me a confirmed charge of a crime and I'll shout it from the roof tops.

why should I have reason to doubt what excathedra or Kristin have testified?

I can't answer that for you. But it has nothing to do with believing either way. I may agree , in fact I have never stated that I did not, it's still my opinion not fact. Accusing one of guilt of a crime requires documentation. Not just undocumented testimony. We don't take people at their word on other points we require proof. The standard is the same.

I've been thinking of this one, quite a bit, and I want to ask you WD, exactly WHO has committed libel? are you saying excathedra has? or Kristin Skedgell? or any of the other women who've published their accounts of being molested by vpw? or the men who've corroborated their testimony? are they committing libel?

Good question, Actually some of the most understanding people are the ones that have shared their stories here. It's the Johnny come latelies that were not present and yet seem to hold other people to some standard that they themselves do not follow, at attempting to discredit their opinion. Those who rant day after day about that which they did not witness, accusing others of crimes that have no documentation other than accusation. People are accused of many things when you can make the charges stick then you may refer to them as guilty of a crime , until then its your opinion or in the case of one involved, a testimony.