WhiteDove

it's perfectly legal to sell those tapes unless the current owner entered into a written contract that specifies the materials are licensed for specific use and must be returned to twi when certain conditions are met.

otherwise, first sale doctrine applies (the copyright owner can only control the first distribution of a tangible item) and they're free to sell them to whoever they want for as much as they want.

Actually it is not, there was no first sale or distribution ,the tape sets always belonged to the Way International they were sent out only to run a class and to be returned upon completion. They remained the property of The Way International. I believe the Belizean BRC folks got into the same trouble with the Way awhile back they had some sets of CD's for sale because the Belize do not honor the copyrights but when they started selling them here in the states The Way went after them. There may be some exceptions I know some have claimed they were given a set legally

I believe that is the asking price for the item. Any bets on how long it will stay up on Ebay?

excellent job of taking the statement out of context in such a predictable manner, rather than recognize it as an example of why presumption of innocence isn't practical outside of the courtroom.

just imagine what twi would be like if they were required to operate under presumption of innocence??? or any business that has employees... or any school... etc. etc. etc.

Not really her premise was that it was not always practical I disagree I think it is in fact beyond that the law.

The organized religious structures/denominations definitely require a seminary experience. And that's fine.

I was only pointing out that all the ordained people of God did not necessarily go to a seminary. But you can find ordained people in both realms.... you can find people who go to seminary and get ordained but God didn't call them at all. And you can find many who are called of God and get ordained from a seminary. You can find people who didn't go to seminary who are ordained by whoever and start their own thing and God didn't call them at all. And you can find people who didn't go to seminary are ordained and have very fruitful ministries. And for me, it's the fruit of what they do.....which is a very good indicator.

My point was that not every person ordained goes through seminary, but obviously many do. And God knows who is called and who is not.....

That's a fair assessment I believe.

And I would agree as well. Assuming of course that one wanted to be fair and not have there mind already made up that is.

Just came across my ebay

PFAL

I am sure someone has pointed this out as well: TWI did not operate like the legal system when it came to the notion of innocent until proven guilty. There are too many people who report that they were kicked out with little idea of why (beyond the "crime" of asking a question or questioning authority) and certainly no opportunity to defend themselves. Why? Because TWI wasn't required to do so, either legally or ethically. As nice as presumed innocence sounds, sometimes it's not particularly practical.

And they were not declared guilty of criminal activity either as such there was no legal claim to satisfy. Declaring one of guilt of a federal or state crime is just a wee bit different than questioning authority. Not that either should go on ,but the repercussions of the criminal charges don't compare.

As nice as presumed innocence sounds, sometimes it's not particularly practical.

Unbelievable........ All I can say is Hopefully if you are ever facing a jury they will uphold the law, even if you mention that you don't think it is practical for them to do so..

Your post makes no sense.

Do you mean there are non-TWI influenced people who also use the word "advance" when they really mean "retreat"?

You assume they meant retreat I'm not sure that is the case do you have documentation on that since your big on having such. The point being just because they use some similar or the same words it still requires a closer look before one just assumes they know what they do or don't do.

Looking at their web site, I see they have Family Camps, Devotion With Motion, Campfires, and Advances.

Nope. No similarities there. :blink:

So because they use four words that the Way used, do you assume they are similar? Gee you used looking ,at ,their, they, have, in your post, I guess that makes you similar to the way as well cause you used the same words that were used in the Way. Perhaps you should spend some time finding out what they really do before commenting based on a glance at some similar words on a web site.

Read the context - which is precisely what I said. One must be charged for the presumption to come into play.

UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence,last I looked guilty of Rape is a penal offence

has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law no proof of guilt according to law has been established

in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence. No trial has occured

UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html#a11

Innocent until proved guilty is a basic human right,The phrase means simply that a person is not legally guilty until a jury returns a verdict of guilty.

Your premise has been proven wrong. Don't segue into another pointless argument.

People appear to be alluding that you might have a financial stake in the good reputation of VPW. Is this so?

Actually that was my argument before you attempted to wrench it from its context. As to the question I answered the question a few pages back,but some people are too busy dreaming up questions that offer no point to the discussion to pay attention.

WD - you should contact JAL about replenishing his supply of TWI materials. He sold all of it a few years ago. Perhaps he'd appreciate knowing someone out there has ample supply.

We stock some of Johns materials.

Sure it's an opinion. If one is found guilty in a court of law it's called a legal opinion.

One thing I can say about you WD is that you really like to put terminology in black and white categories. But just to make this stick, here's the dictionary definition:

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.

2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.

4. Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.

5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.

6. a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him.

Context: personal opinion not legal opinion

Any documentation that anyone has denyed others to vent? (Personal opinion) I see none. One can vent all they want their opinion of things, (personal opinion )claiming guilt of a crime however is no longer opinion. (stating I believe one to be guilty is personal opinion, confirming guilt of a crime where none is established is a lie as there is no crime charged to proceed through due process with much less a guilty verdict)

How stubborn can a small group of idiots be? We just don't know for certain . . .

I often ask that same question........

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because no one has answered your challenge that no testimonies exist. That would be a mistake in logic.

What you should consider is that people are getting tired of you and WD promoting your own form of victim mentality and are just not willing to play the games anymore. If you want to consider yourself as "winning" then I guess that's fine - but in reality you are fooling yourself.

This thread has been a bit disgusting to read. Two posters trying vehemently to promote their own victimhood (Oh poor me. I saw stuff and did stuff but I can't talk about it because I have no proof,) while they deny others the right to vent.

Am I stupid enough to say that every account of rape is true? No. But even if only ONE person told the truth and then hundreds repeated it as if it was their own story - VP was STILL WRONG.

Oh, and BTW, there is at least one example of VP's depravity that normally could be cited, but the new rules keep it from being talked about.

You want an account? Go listen to the interviews with Kristen Skedgell on the first page. That is first hand.

Do you "need" more examples? I'd say that one is more than enough. He was wrong. I don't need more examples of his depravity. If you do, perhaps that says something about you. It's bad enough that one young lady was manipulated by a man old enough to be her grandfather. Wanting or needing more examples is just perverse.

I may be wrong - but that is my opinion.

Any documentation that anyone has denyed others to vent? I see none. One can vent all they want their opinion of things, claiming guilt of a crime however is no longer opinion.

Why are the "Smart" people are supposed to answer Pond's question? Why are the "Smart" people supposed to go digging through the forums for her?

I asked Pond a question and she didn't answer me. That is okay I suppose, no one says you HAVE to respond.

But, Rascal and Waysider need to go digging up accounts posted in the last nine years to satisfy her curiousity?? Do you REALLY think you made a point here Pond?

I don't think so.

Sometimes this place really creeps me out.

Reasonable request since they ask others to do the same routinely.

So that's it. You see no need to continually bring it up. No one is forcing anyone to be here. If you have moved on, then perhaps the best thing you can do is find something else to entertain yourself.

What and ruin all Garths fun? That's not nice. Now where would he post his pretty airplane pictures? Anyway at 21 pages and 5,455 reads I'd say someone is entertained. Do you have a problem with people discussing their ideas and thinking?

I did indeed receive music from Dove ...lol but that was no doubt before he decided I was his *nemisis* :) Seriously, thanks again, it was indeed a blessing.

As far as twi stuff...I think it isn`t even necessarily a monetary thing, but feeling what we had, what we learned, was of value. Of loving who and what we thought that we represented....of what we invested our hearts and souls into... our identity and self worth is somehow all tied into the ok ness of twi.

If one negates vpw or the value of what he taught...it somehow diminishes who we are and what we believe...we go from super conquerers to dupes that enabled evil to thrive.... .some times we just don`t want to be wrong about what we have dedicated lives to...it is easier to blame or accuse the people who`s experiences contradict our own then it is to re examine our entire belief system, how we view ourselves, and the universe around us.

I understand feeling that way.

Rascal I hope you noted the laugh in my post it was an attempt at humor , that aside the door is open for any request you may have in the future. If I can help get you something that you desire I will do so. Our disagreements here have no bearing on that.

quote name='WordWolf' date='Mar 8 2009, 08:24 AM' post='459497']

This one is equivalent to saying

"Lots of people met Jeffrey Dahmer and were never eaten"

and using that to suggest Dahmer was innocent of cannibalism.

We don't care how many people Dahmer DIDN'T eat.

We don't care how many people vpw DIDN'T molest, rape, drug, or abuse.

We care about those he did- even if the number of people he DIDN'T was

tens of thousands and he "only" abused, say 100.

Even IF you're correct that that particular person wasn't a victim in a substantial sense,

that is a non-issue for this discussion. How you can read paragraphs of one victim,

miss them completely, then find the one sentence on the "non-victim" should strike

people, at the least, as PECULIAR.

No it's not, it is very much the issue, it establishes that possibility there are other reasons for the variance in the stories. One could argue the same your way posting stories of victims has nothing to do with willing sex.

Point being there are two sides to the story, as Pond pointed out we pick the one we like often. I choose to look at the whole picture and see that there are two distinct sides as such without further documentation it is a guess as to which is the real story or what possible motives there are for the difference in them.

If you're not going to bother putting in time to read a FEW accounts of victims,

why should he bother linking dozens and dozens?

Some people have read OTHER accounts here, and expressed sympathy for the victims.

Why can't you be more like them? Specifically, like THIS poster:

To document his point. Numbers remember? Not to mention 3 is a long way from 100s

That poster specifically was responding to the accounts of 2 other posters, whom he believed

reliable, giving reliable accounts. His reaction was to try to comfort the suffering.

He had READ plenty of the accounts, at least some of which he deemed "reliable" or "trustworthy."

He didn't see the need to keep bringing them up, challenging the women who suffered,

suggesting they were less than truthful, and so on.

I wish that poster was posting on this thread.

And yet here it is years later and some continue to bring it up day after day. I still see no need for such,thats my opinion others may think different, nor do I see the need to claim guilt when there is none established. Stating an opinion or a personal testimony is one thing, wannabees who were not there beating the story to death is another. My concern is with the later, I have stated numerous times the stories are undocumentable they could be right or wrong . Until they are right guilt is not established. You want to state it's your opinion fine with me ,but opinion is not documented fact.

So, are you saying, WD, that you have NO business interests that involve sales of Way materials,

that the closest you DO have to such an interest is operating AT A FINANCIAL LOSS by distributing

specific music media?

That's a carefully-worded question. You can fairly answer "YES" or "NO" to it.

I noticed you STILL didn't answer his question- you only attacked someone else's post in response

to the question you didn't answer.

Correct AT A FINANCIAL LOSS or at best we break even on the cost. Time aside as there is no compensation there.

waysider........seems like WhiteDove kept side-stepping your question, but he did state the following on the Eyewitnesses: twi 1976....your stories? thread.....post #56:

Well lets cut to the chase: 1.

And then to vocally protest books like Kristen's, that expose The Way, implying their motives are purely financial, seems a bit hypocritical to me.

Exactly how do you figure that? I wrote no book that brings revenue to me ,as such I have no motive for skewing the truth for sales. What does writing a book for her sole profit have to do with selling others music for non profit to benefit them, have to do with each other. Not even remotely the same thing.

2. We sell no books by VPW the last one I had was left from Way days Receiving the Holy Spirit which I sold to someone that posts here on a regular basis because they asked for it. As a service I sold it for the same cost we had in it. I think if I remember correctly we paid the postage. which means we lost money.

3. We sell all our items at the same prices that the artists do many times because of re-mailing we end up loosing money ,the bookstore was never intended to make profit its purpose was to help others get materials they desired and to help those former way musicians sell their music. I figure it is a nice thing to do since they never received any compensation while they were in the Way.

4. By the way this week I sent out a CD for absolutely no cost -that means we paid not only the shipping, but the cost of the CD itself. I did so because I thought it was the right thing to do. Additionally I have sent music to posters here because they asked for me to, including my arch nemesis Rascal

So as usual Waysider you have no point, although you try hard to find one. The bookstore looses money, contrary to self published books that return (less expenses) all the profit to the writer.

First click on this link

http://www.abouttheway.org/

Then go here and click on "sexual conduct".

What does sexual conduct tell us about the degree of integrity and spiritual authority of TWI leadership, past and present?

Then go here and click on "marsha".

Rumors have circulated for years that V. P. Wierwille was a sexual predator. Marsha tells her story.

Then go here and click on "Donna".

Donna adds her memories of how Wierwille abused her, too.

Then go here and click on "Kristen's Story".

Kristen's Story offers her recollections of VP Wierwille's advances toward her.

Then go here and click on "Schoenheit's Paper on Adultery".

"Schoenheit's Paper on Adultery" - Way leaders once ordered followers to have nothing to do with this Bible research paper. Many Way leaders, including author John Schoenheit (who was on staff with TWI's Research Department at the time), were fired because they had read it. Why was it so disturbing?

Get the picture?

I agree with pond I get the picture all right, Lets see what it says, 3 records of sexual conduct claimed not documented.

and this from your post

I was not mature of a woman of God bla bla bla. He let me go back to the thefront of the motorcoach (relife) and the other 7th Corps girl went in there with him and she stayed all night.. EEUU..

I think I said some were satisfied with the arangement. By the way I love your new math 1+1+1= 3 No wait it's 100dreds.

I have I think she will update everyone herself though soon. Nobody keeps a flying pig down.....

Well Dove, there are your first hand accounts ... Thank you waysider for posting that link

:) I had forgotten some of the horror. Well worth the re read to remind myself just how despicable this filthy pervert was.

Yep sounds like another side of the story.

I was not mature of a woman of God bla bla bla. He let me go back to the thefront of the motorcoach (relife) and the other 7th Corps girl went in there with him and she stayed all night.. EEUU..

Dear TWI victims,

Please feel free to infer that most everybody that counts here at the Greasespot Cafe will see through any attempt that would tend to liken believing your story with being inquisitorial as White Dove implies with this last post. You will find smart and good hearted people here who will listen to you.

Dear Jeff if you have no record of a crime committed ,no charge ,no case,and yet claim one as guilty of a crime .What would you call it? I'd say that was a presumption of guilt — as being inquisitorial and contrary to the principles of a free society.

Dear Wierwille rape victims,

It matters nothing to me who White Dove thinks is an internet wannabe.

Please don't let this type of put down fool you into thinking that anyone will think less of you here. As a matter of fact it seems plain to me that many would be happy to fight FOR YOU.

Dear Jeff had you read what I said you would see that my comment was not to the alleged victim, but to those who rant daily about that which they were not present to know about. They repeat stories as truth that have not met the burdon of proof for crimes.

Dear TWI victims,

Please do not believe anyone who points out that your stories are unverifiable and so we cannot believe you. Most people would call that "calling into question" your story, I understand this, and so does most everybody else here.

Many folks here at the Greasespot knew you or knows somebody who knows you.

Dear Jeff I never said you were not free to believe what you want to ,nor did I say you were not free to voice that opinion. I choose not to accuse one of a crime based on words alone, I think most would think the same . What if I called you a child molester would you be ok with that because I said so? or would you expect some evidence presented to back up the claim. I'm betting the latter. I offer others the same benefit of doubt.

Don't worry TWI victims. Most of us understand that it is cowardly to imply someone is lying without having the cohones to actually say someone is lying. Even if they choose to hide behind persnickety and unrealistic conversational mores.

Dear Jeff I have never stated that anyone was lying ,that is pure fiction, fabrication on your part, and a gross misrepresentation of my viewpoint which by the way is against the rules here. Contrary to your fabricated version I have consistently presented the facts as they are. We have words ,I say this is what happened ,we have others that say a different thing that happened, those are the facts. What one chooses to believe ,how one feeeels are not, they are emotions which could be based on a variety of reasons. I'm not looking for pats on the back for being Dr. Phil of GreaseSpot, I'm looking for the factual truth . And that is at present it is undocumentable ,that may change fine with me either way, but until it does I won't make a guess as to guilt.

Dove that is rediculous....There were first hand accounts that some were fine with the arrangements?? So that makes the many cases of drugging, rape, manipulation and extortion for sex in return for healing NOT criminal or contemptible??

Good lord man, I have heard of only two accounts of people claiming to be *ok* with it...one, I don`t believe she is *ok* all.....while I have heard dozens of accounts of extortion, drugging, and rape...where the victims WEREN`T *ok with it*...where people went to the man of God for healing from their pain...ONLY to have the need for peace, the longing for healing used as leverage to get sex.

People hurting so bad, wanting healing so intensely from the pain...that they were clinging to the last hope that wierwille could help them achieve the peace that their tortured soul was so desperate for....only to be told that he could heal them, that he could give them a reason to live...by sleeping with them.

Bless his soul, what a saint :(

If it was *ok* I seriously doubt that there would have had such life long impact on so many.

Not what I said as usual. I never excused any crimes what I said was there are conflicting presentations both are undocumentable leaving one to pick, choose ,flip a coin, as to which is truth, maybe both are, the point we don't know, we were not there. Isn't that the standard you seem to hold me to. You were not there so your unqualified to speak? So were you ? No So you pick a view point that fits with how you feel toward the Way. Sorry not me I won't violate a persons rights on a whim. Your free to offer your opinion on what you believe to be true and I am free to as well and challenge that as having no evidence to support the words. Neither of us can speak with authority as we were not there. I choose to except the facts as they are undocumentable beyond words. That makes no one a liar, excuses no crimes ,it only verifies the facts as they are.

No need the Change..ling will provide .