Shelly

Ex10, I believe that one of the greatest challenges each of us have in life is learning to be comfortable with who we are. I think you helped her do just that. Could that ever be wrong?

JL, no Tenth Corps. That Corps was in training when I got involved with TWI, I think. 1980?

ex10 said, “I just don't get why male couples are ok, and female couples nobody wants to wait on, or deal with.” I think that is true in most areas, whether homo or hetero. Generally speaking: In restaurants, female tables are known to be cheap and lousy tippers. In retail situations, males are more decisive making them easier to wait on, females shop. I think it is has more to do with them being male or female, not gay or lesbian. But that is just my experience. Attitude does have a lot to do with it. But I tend to think the attitude will be there whether sexual orientation is an issue or not. ExWayDaryl, I hope Gay Pride in Chicago handles itself better than Gay Pride in New Orleans. I went a couple of times and left wondering what the hell they had to be proud of. They gave the rest of us a bad name! We have a weekend called Southern Decadence, in September I think. Hundreds of drag queens are in the French Quarter drinking, limping in their heels, and showing their foot, some of them literally. Thousands come to town to participate in the decadence. I guess it is in the name, but I don’t have any problems with that event. Go figure.

Eagle, great post! I didn’t agree with a word you said. However, I like the way you said it. You stated your opinion without trashing anyone in the process

LOL. Very funny. I can see your point Satori, although I don’t necessarily agree with it. The defending of oneself didn’t arise until the attacks escalated. It developed as people took sides. I agree, some of Catcup’s comments were uncalled for, but that is what happens when we can’t get our point across no matter how we try, how we reword it. It is frustrating, especially when some of the accusations had nothing to do with the topic. A lot of the comments to RG and Catcup concerned not answering quick enough, who they fellowshipped with, someone named Shroyer as if they are his keeper, and the suggestion that they are trolls. Satori, trolls??? Catcup and RG??? That is funnier than the first line of this post! It seems to me that Catcup and RG are judged more harshly than most here, because of their past. I was wondering the other day if anyone else had posted what Geek did, would they have received the same attitude from some of the posters. I think it would depend on whether the person starting the topic had been WC, whether they were involved with an offshoot, and/or their opinion of Vic. Some here can get away with it, others can’t. BTW, awesome post on page 3, forgiveness vs. absolution. (Catcup and RG, I apologize for talking about you as if you aren’t here.)

Ain’t life grand! I get it, Cool. I misunderstood your post. Sorry. I’ve been wondering why this thread is bringing up such controversy. For me it is really simple, you either will or won’t – do or don’t. No big deal really. So what if others think I am right or wrong. I am the one who has to live with the decisions I make. I think some times we bristle at the idea of being back in the environment of TWI that we don’t hear what others are trying to say. Personally, I like threads like this. Different views, approaches and reactions help me understand me better. I am the one I have to live with, after all. For what it is worth, CoolWaters, I admire the way you have fought for you through out the years. That goes for many of the people who have posted on this thread.

I would like to amend this statement Just for the record, Catcup responded the way many of us have when someone we care for is perceived as being misunderstood and attacked. I am remembering some of my own past posts. Some of them weren’t pretty. :)-->

When I think of forgiveness, I think of harboring no ill will towards the other. Just because I forgave doesn’t mean I want to renew anything. My dad was in and out of my life. He was abusive. He drank. He destroyed many when he killed his second wife. I have psycho family members because of his influence in their lives. Two years before he died, he became very ill and we thought he wouldn’t make it. I went to see him. I told him everything I had wanted to say: I forgave him, I was proud he had been sober for 13 years, there was nothing he had done, was doing or would ever do that would cause me hate him. I didn’t see him for two years. I never saw him again. People couldn’t understand why I didn’t go to him when I learned he was dieing. I figured I had already told him, two years before, everything I needed to say. What was the point? Just to be there? I saw no obligation to change the relationship he had cultivated with me all my life. After all the pain there was nothing left to restore. So, my forgiveness was all there was to offer. I have no regrets. I can understand anger being so strong that the mere thought of forgiving brings it to the surface. I doubt RG meant to stir anyone’s emotions. But with the subject being forgiveness, could it really be avoided? Not likely. Just for the record, Catcup responded the way many of you have when someone you care for is perceived as being misunderstood and attacked. Satori, Ex, Coolwaters, and others? Remember? Nice to see you again outofdafog.

I use the word "indifference".

Hey, CoolWaters, thanks for the WhoIs search. It made me wonder. Most businesses have all their email addresses formatted the same way. Soooooo, if an email is sent to RosalieRivenbark@theway.org, would she receive it? Things that make me go, hummm?

Exie, I don’t think you give yourself enough credit.

I don’t know, Sky4it. Abigail’s comment, “… taking with me the knowledge that despite it all and more likely because of it all, I am a stronger and better person now…”, that comment is something I can relate too. There is a lot of strength to be gained in fighting for your sanity, staying afloat amidst the reproof and corrections, simply surviving what could very well have drown me.

Rascal, take it from some one who lurks and seldom posts, you are not coming off as a heartless hate mongering bitch. Not by a long shot. You obviously are dealing with your past and your beliefs, just like the rest of us. I find your posts thought provoking and you have helped me pull my thoughts together. I just love it when posts do that for me. To forgive or not to forgive? That is only for you to decide, in my own life, in my own time. The same is true for each of us.

I have spent my entire morning reading this thread. Thanks to everyone who posted on it. Interestingly enough, I can see each of your views. Scary isn’t it? :)--> All the posts have helped me formulate my own thoughts and convictions. The thing I see is that offering forgiveness to another is a very personal thing for each of us. Rascel, I wish I could address your Luke 17:3 question. But it says, “If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.” Maybe some of us never got the opportunity to rebuke those that sinned against us? I have a few of those in my life and it ....es me off. Coulda, woulda, shoulda at the time, huh? But it ain’t go,na happen. So, what now? Forgiveness can be given for all the right reasons and still be dead wrong. One of the things I used to tell people when I was fighting my drinking problem is – “DON’T EVER tell me it is Ok. You were drunk. You didn’t mean it.” All that did was make me feel better. They just loved me. They just wanted me to feel better. The better I felt, the less I saw a need to change. Guess what? Sorry doesn’t make it better. Change does. So, where does forgiveness fit for me? I can’t change what I have done. I can change me, so I will NEVER hurt someone in my drunken stupor again. I can change me, and not continue to do the things I have done, in TWI and out. I can forgive me for being an arrogant, self-righteous, prideful, and self-loathing person, hurting so many so often, and gain solace from the fact that I am working to change that. I have come a long way. But ask anyone that knows me. I have a long way to go :D--> Others who have hurt me? Family? Strangers? TWI? There are many. Some times anger rises so powerfully within me at the thought of past injuries that I want to lash out and literally hurt them. It shocks me sometimes, the rage within. I have to remind myself that I have no control over another. I can’t change what happened. I have to accept that. My anger usually turns to sorrow for them. I do feel sorry for them. I agree with Catcup, “The offender carries the burden. He or she must live with what they have done. And in the case of a sociopath who has no conscience, don't fool yourself into thinking they suffer no consequences. They do. It manifests itself as deficits in many other areas of their lives.” I can’t imagine what must go through their minds in those few minutes just before they are fully awake or fully asleep, when they are the most vulnerable to their own thoughts. You know, before the defensives that protect us from ourselves are fully in place. Did they mean to hurt me? I don’t really care if they did. It wouldn’t matter one way or another. I am just tired of feeling the pain over and over again when I remember. I am tired of the anger and who I have become because of it. Thanks for all your posts. It has been awhile since I have considered this subject and it is worthy of consideration.

WhiteDove, thank you for your post on page 5. I thoroughly enjoyed your recap of the accomplishments of Charles Sheldon. I think there are too few people willing to put judgments and prejudices aside and really try to understand another’s situation. Talk about walking in their shoes. Very cool.