twinot

No doubt I believe that Rosie and Donna conspired to be where they are today. I'm sure they thought they could handle the "ministry" and I use that term very loosely, better than Loy. I think they carefully planned and waited for their shot and when the time came they took it. The minds of these people were very far gone when it came to having any real integrity. Rosie and Donna definitely had their little thing going and of course we all know that Loy had his thing going. Having been at HQ during the early 90's I saw these relationships and now after all the dirty laundry has come out it's not hard to figure that what happened may have very well been a setup of sorts for old Loy boy. I mean talk about someone who was ripe to be had, the guy lived and worshiped the vagina. He would do anything to get it and with that kind of predictable behavior it would not be hard to set a guy up for a fall. The main thing would have been to be in just the right position, which Rosie and Donna were and therefore I believe they basically took him out.

Something else I forgot and wanted to add on this subject is by the time I got into The Way and later leadership the big break up had already happened. I have come to realize that many in postions of higher leadership by default were loyal to Craig and therefore were primed and ready to go wherever he led. Sure there were still leaders that thought for themselves but by the early 90's Craig was taking control of everything and intimidating everybody. It reminds me of a lot of what I've read about Nazi Germany and what happened as Hitler rose to power. A lot of good people just fell in line once Hitler had the reins in his hands and fear ruled the day. Top leaders at Region level and cabinet level were not all into what Craig was doing but they let him have at it and all to some degree or antoher got caught up in it. If you didn't you were done away with no matter what postion you had.

This type of subject regarding X Way leaders and their behavior is challenging for me but I decided to add my 2 cents. My timeframe for being tossed out of TWI is the same as Cats and my treatment and the logic used to toss me is very similiar. My story, newly ordained guy shows up in 95' things started off okay but once he had been there for a while he started digging into people lives including the WC and heads started getting cut off. I was never under LP's leadership but was around him at HQ. I always liked what I saw when around him and how he treated me. I'm not trying to belittle what happened to so many good folks but having been in a position of leadership during the mid 90's the pressure to become Craig like was intense. I never sold out to the yelling and grasping for "spiritual reasons" that people were screwed up but I sure came close. I did not want to be ousted I felt (at the time) that I had a lot to lose and that failure was not an option. Of course I realize now that I was brainwashed by TWI and had gradually allowed myself to be deceived. I did not have the maturity that Cats and her husband had so I just kind of gradually froze up due to pressure and the fear from all the microspopic probes that were inserted up my arse and self-destructed. Now that it's been more than 10 years since all that crap went down my perception of why it happened has matured. I always think of the scripture in Galatians about "biting and devouring one another" or something like that with reagard to what happens when things get all legalistic and religous in a group of Chrisitians. The guy that kicked me out of the WC and later TWI eventually was put in the same position and was demoted and later left TWI. I was around him a little after he was demoted and before he left TWI and never got an apology or even a conversation about what happened. Why didn't I bring it up? I should have but wussed out. I agree with Cats that apologizing is a good and right thing. I came back to TWI for a short time after LCM was ousted and apologized to people that I had been harsh with in 95-96. I just felt that it was the right thing to do and like Cats I think it shows that someone has honestly changed if they seek out those they hurt and apologize. It was hard to seek these folks out and apologize but I kenw it was the right thing to do. The fact that LP and others have never done so is not a good thing and demonstrates that something is wrong in their thinking. To me the bottom line here is that the adversary just had a field day with people. Somebody got the ball rolling mostly Craig from what I know and then others in leadership joined in and by the mid 90's it was out of control! WC going full-time allowed for all kinds of control and horrible acts to be committed on good hearted folks. Then there was the homo purge and later the need to "cross the bridge" into the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word. Of course nobody in leadership was saying that the crossing would be on the bodies of all those that had been abused and tossed out like refuse by TWI leaders. It's funny becaue I can laugh about this now and at myself for being so stupid. Not to be insensitive to those that can't laugh and may never.

I heard that Steve L. was up in Washington State and has been for a while. He is not doing much with his ministry anymore from what I heard. I knew him back in 88-89 in California.

Anybody know where Nicole is at these days. Last I knew she was in Alberque, New Mexico but that has been a few years now.

Call me silly but if my perception of Chrisianity is even close to correct this sort of thing has been happening for centuries. I feel like some here that my early days with the Way were good. As things progressed and I decided to go into leadership things started going very wrong. In my case even with the negatives I came away from this organization far better off than before. The fact that there was truth mixed with error is just a part of life. We have an adversary who likes to destroy people every chance he gets. Believe me I can speak from experience having been dumped like trash by the Way after years of faithful service under very stressful circumstances.

Anybody here an expert on making money in the stock market. I want to learn and needs some pointers.

Anyone ever hear tell of Stiles finding out of how VPW used his material?

I know that Loy boy named many many women in his deposition that he slept with and many were married. I never really found out for sure what TWI leaders did about those married women that had sex with Loy. I know H.P. (not the computer company) was given the job of calling all these women and telling them what was going on. What a job, but he signed up and then went to HQ when called to be the big VP. I know some that were told to tell their spouses but I am sure there are many men who will never know what kind of services their wives gave the MOG. I am under the impression that these women should tell their husbands so that it's not between them any more what do you all think?

WaferNot: Could you expound more on what you mean by "the relationship" ?

Wolf: Your making my head heart (not literally). I feel like I'm chasing my tail trying to discuss this with you. I know that I've been delivered from the bad attitude about church and other Christians that was impressed on me while with TWI. I know that I am doing my best to do what I believe is right in the sight of God. If you think that you see something in my posts that says otherwise your certainly entitled to your opinion.

Watered and Wolf: For me "butchering the truth" is teaching anything that I've worked in my mind and heart and decided I believe to be the truth. Can I be wrong? Yes, but is it okay for a guy to believe that he can acutally get to and be sure about what he believes is the truth? I absolutely can't believe that it's any other way. Or is that egotistical in anyone's opinion? Isn't that the way it's suppossed to work? Whether VP or LCM taught it the same as I now believe makes no difference to me but it sure seems to here at GS. I am not of VP or of Geer or of LCM. I am a believer with the spirit of God and a mind of my own. I get to use my brain and think and decide after study and contemplation what I believe the truth is. People here seem to be hyperventilating to jump on anyone who says something that happens to be the same as what TWI taught. Let me tell you it's a real turn-off. I don't believe that TWI got everything right. I have had to discard many things that were off both doctrinally and practically. Since I enjoy CFF does that mean I'm somehow not able to enjoy other Christians? Does that mean that I can not be impartial? Does it mean that I look down on other Christians?

There's no doubt that those (Christians) outside anything that was NEVER connected to TWI or one of it's splinter groups have something to offer. They are born again believers, they have the spirit of God! God has not limited himself to TWI and it's offshoots for truth and deliverance. Having said that, the main issue I contend with in going to a Church is having to sit and listen to someone butcher the truth on any given Sunday. Do they get things right, sure they do. I go occassionally when I meet someone that is excited about their church and meet folks and see what I can learn as well as see what I can do for folks. There is something to be said about doing your best to get to the truth with an aim towards continuing to grow. Religion is religion it tends to stagnate, whether it's got TWI's mark on it or Roman Catholic mark or whatever. The structure that VP put in place through the late 70's and into the 80's made TWI into just another religion because it allowed for the centralization of money and authority and well you know the rest of the story. I don't see this in the 1st century Church as recorded in the book of Acts. To answer the question "what is wrong with the Church?" most are just religous organizations with "similiar" stagnated and limiting structure that ruined TWI. There's nothing new under the sun... the adversary has been squashing real movements of God for centuries. Sure there are good hearted folks in those churches, the same is true of TWI, ( I was one of them until I got out) we here just have a unique perspective on TWI that leads some to think that somehow those good hearted folks in Churches are somehow different from the ones still with TWI. I want to be where I am challenged in my understanding of God's Word and where I can be reproved and corrected when needed. For me that is with the offshoot of my choice and it's not Geer. Dont' misunderstand I don't hold to the offshoot like I did with TWI. I get the Word I need and then I go forth and treat all of the body of Christ the same no matter what group they hang with.

Nothing against writing letters to TWI BOT but don't bother wasting the paper. If you believe that you'll gain something then go ahead but those rockheads aren't going to listen to anything anybody has to say. Rosie is just plain gone, she is out there in lala land. I could get into some more detail but trust me she is just gone gone gone. Anybody who is still following her for whatever reason is loco in the cabasa as well.

Thank you all for your thoughts on this subject. I am now a father of two young boys and this subject has come up in my mind many times. I have a brother-in-law who is Roman Catholic and over the years especially my early years learning the bible this subject came up. I did not have the sense to leave it alone around him and he caught my sister, his wife and I discussing it. He was let's say not pleased about my views! The verse that they threw at me was: Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Of course I noted the word "before" which hooks up with Eph 1:4. God knows who is going to be formed and eventually who will be born. This verse was used to say that God knows us when we are inside the womb as a fetus. One thing I've learned over the years and have a far better understanding now that I am a father is that emotion can easily enter this subject and cause a person to stop looking at the Word. It is hard to see that sonogram and see that "thing" moving at 3 months and still believe that it's not a human being until it breaths on it's own. I have to say though that what I learned from TWI on this subject still is what I see in the Word. The logic just fits and the other details that you'all shared make the case.

I did a search of the forum on this subject and did not come up with any discussion on what God says on the subject. This is one of those subjects I've taken a hard look at and still feel uneasy about. I know what VP taught that it's not a human being until it breaths on its own, therefore abortion is not murder. I wanted to ask what those of you who post here have seen in the bible on this subject. I am not interested in personal opinion but rather what God has to say.

Moved to Doctrinal Forum

To quote J.R. Ewing from the TV show Dallas: "Once you lose integrity the rest is a piece of cake" Donna like so many lost her way at TWI.

I started this thread because I am interested in what the folks on this forum think about Mrs. W and her decision to not put her foot down with VP. I knew her after VP died, what LCM called TWI 2. He should of called it what it was "a final rein of terror." There weren't very many folks left that were around when VP was alive so my understanding of the circumstances is limited. I knew Sara Wierwille Gigou ( an amazing women) very well but never discussed any of this stuff with her or anyone that was around before VP died. Why? because I didn't know any of it went on. I never doubted that she was a good hearted person. I don't doubt that some here had negative experiences with her. I think we would be hard pressed to find anyone at TWI that never did anything stupid or hardhearted. For that matter it would be hard to find any person anywhere that is always kind, always gentle, always perfect. LCM tried to make perfect people out of all of us and all that did was destroy what little was left after POP. I wanted to thank each of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences here it has helped me understand what went on back then.

I cannot dismiss VP as a false prophet. I believe that his genuine desire to know God and gain an accurate knowledge of the truth is undeniable. The fact that he began to look outside of his denomination for truth is evident. The fact that he sought out and found men like Bullinger, Leonard, Kenyon and others is a testimony to his desire for truth. I certainly believe that he got derailed along the way. I’m not making any excuses for what he did that hurt so many people. Like many of you I have taken a hard look at everything I learned while with TWI. I have seen many glaring errors and at the same time many wonderful truths that have set me free.

Thank you Dot: You brought up one of the things that has been hardest for me to reconcile. How could TWI be the source of so much deliverance and yet the man that started it is an f'ing pervert. Yet I have talked with many who shared very wonderful tender moments where VP helped them. Heck he helped me via classes and teaching tapes. It's just so difficult to understand how he was so screwed up and yet helped me so much. My in-law's got in early back in the early 70's. I didn't get in until later, never met VP. My in-law's experienced what I did when I got in. A wonderful grassroots organization where they learned how to believe God and got deliverance in their lives. I have looked at the Word in those places where screwed up leaders still had God working in them. I suppose it comes back to God works with what he's got and sometimes that ain't much. I suppose VP had a weakness in the sexual area and it just got really bad as he got into a position where he had the power to take advantage of women. It just sickens you but at the same time as a man I understand how it can happen. I think I could control that area but if I was put in a position where I had the power things might be different. I just shudder to think about being the kind of person he ended up being. I know many women who were abused by LCM and one of them I was engaged to be married to when I was tossed out. She tossed me to and then she was put on staff at HQ. Anyone wonder what happened to her next? Yep LCM moved in for some fun. I'm still amazed to this day that no heartbroken husband or boyfriend has taken a ball bat to that SOB! The same is true of VP! They both needed to be castraded! When you look at what is going on in our society today along these lines it's even more sickening. Men who rape kids just get a slap on the wrist. Anyway thank you for sharing if anyone has something to add to my delima mentioned above how someone so screwed up could have helped many get deliverance I'd appreciate it.

Hey Socks: Thank you for not tongue lashing me. I received a lifetime and then some while with TWI. You folks here aren't so bad especially after running the gauntlet! She also stood by and did nothing while they threw her son, daugher, in-law's, and grandchildren out of the ministry. I was there and it was b*ll ..... Old Vic was long gone by then, I guess LCM had his bluff in on her to. I watched the two of them interact. She despised him and he her but they coexhisted in that same small space. Don knew all about it as well and was a trustee and he just sat down and did nothing as well. I guess he learned this from his mother. Of course I did nothing as well and I've kicked myself in the foot many times for it.

I got ya on that Highway but so much more was at stake in Mrs. W's situation due to all the people that were hurt because of her husbands sin.

Sprawled and Highway: Thank you for your input both of you make good points. The good in this discussion is that it really makes people think about what is right in this type of situation. All of us will or have already been faced with tough decisions like this. People like Peter, Martin Luther, Tendale, Wycliff and others spoke up under what were harsher circumstances than any members of TWI faced. Their very lives were on the line, not to mention the potiential loss of family, friends and reputation. Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. It always comes down to a matter integrity of heart in the sight of God. Mrs. W was a nice lady but I think who she was, and her position has lead many to take it easy on her while others get slammed.

I wanted to pose the question so that it could be discussed here. I know that Mrs. W was in a challenging position and that she was human like all of us. I spent 10 years in leadership and never had a clue that all the sexual misconduct was going on right under my nose. Heck I didn't even get wind of any rumors about LCM although I did hear once that VP had been accused. What each one of us would have done is up for debate. I still can't help but think that Mrs. W and others who knew couldn't have done something behind the scenes to get Vic to stop. I suppose that many that knew and could have gathered hard evidence were afraid to call his bluff. The thought of losing your wife and children and most of your friends and any family that were involved is sobering. When Peter stood up on the Day of Pentecost and openly spoke for God I'm sure that this type of thing was on his mind. I'm glad he didn't succom to the fear.