T-Bone

CARROT CAKE... You are a very fun loving person, who likes to

laugh. You are fun to be with. People like to hang out with you. You are a very

warm hearted person and a little quirky at times. You have many loyal

friends.

[/quote] I wish Key Lime Pie was on the list - so I was stuck picking Carrot Cake...Hmmm,,,It all pretty much fits - - except the last part - because when it comes to desserts I have no friends!

Wow - is that true?!?! Sign me up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now don't be too quick to blame Ron's Cat - the actual source could be someone well acquainted in the deceptive art of Fartriloquism [the one breaking wind is able to throw their sound across the room to give the appearance that someone else has passed gas]. Not to be confused with A$$hole Projection - which is an Out-of-the-Bungh*le experience.

This is funny... but I honestly feel somewhat paranoid as to why there aren't more replys. :unsure:

I don't know - I've got a pretty odd sense of humor and guess some people don't know what to make of my silly stuff...In some wacky weird way this is part of how I deal with things and it's therapeutic for me.

Speaking of Gospel Harmonys, Invisible Dan, there's The Narrated Bible in Chronological Order NIV, narration by F. LaGard Smith. I don't use it as a reference but just enjoy reading the Bible as a single continuous story. Smith added a descriptive narrative in the NIV to tie events together... I don't consider his added narrative or chronological order authoritative - but it can provide some insight at times - definitely helps getting the flow of the Old Testament...It's sort of like reading The Message - which I enjoy too - maybe not useful as a reference - but may get you to look at something a little different. You know, sometimes you'll read a verse in a different version - a verse you're so familiar with - and you wind up seeing something else in it!

Thanks Gang for sharing these websites - I'm adding a bunch of these to my Favorites list. And Goey, I don't know if you've come across this one www.criticalthinking.org - it's a good one for developing clear thinking.

This has got to be one of the best threads ever on Grease Spot! I hate to be difficult - but I'm still undecided - you might have to post some more pictures...This worked out great - coinciding with my Bible study on the practical application of LUST.

T-Bone, this is what I was looking at in your post on the other thread. You listed a bunch of books you use in your efforts to clean up your KJV, but you didn't mention the loss of surety that emerges from such efforts, especially when two equally bright scholars (like authors of the books you mentioned) disagree on any one point.

If I wanted surety I had to have SOME kind of reference text to help me in my Biblical research that "I'd never have to back up on" to borrow a phrase.

Due to a number of circumstances lining up together in that year of 1998, I decided that I'd take written PFAL as my only rule for faith and practice. Outside obvious printer and proofreader errors, I decided that every word written there is true and everything else gets lined up with it or tossed out.

Mike, perhaps I wasn't clear on referring to those books. I'm not trying to "clean up" my KJV. I refer to them for another viewpoint or perhaps see how they define a Greek or Hebrew word, or mention an historical or cultural tie in...As far as a loss of surety - I personally am confident that: the Bible is true [though I certainly don't understand it all], that Jesus died for my sins, that God answers prayer, that adultery, lying, murder, and stealing are wrong; That I should love God with all my heart,soul, mind and strength & love my neighbor as myself....I continue to study the Bible [in quite a few different translations besides KJV] to hopefully deepen my understanding of the Scriptures and develop my relationship with God as I'm sure you do too....Yeah, there's a lot of neat stuff to study in the Bible - like the Book of Revelation, the Rapture, the Holy Spirit and manifestations, etc. - - I personally don't think I've got to figure that all out, work all the kinks out and nail down the "true doctrine" or some doctrinal position so I can have intellectual confidence.....I admit I look into those things, study them - but figure I may never be as confident about what I find as I do about the "simpler" stuff....I think [in my opinion] that in the grand scheme of things - what matters most in Bible study are the things that have a direct bearing on the practical side of Christianity.

In my opinion, this is getting very confusing – trying to determine the validity of PFAL by math analogies or "backward engineering" the content of the class by analyzing his behavior behind closed Motor Coach Doors [for fear of the news]. I think it's a lot easier to analyze the class content all by itself.

The way I see it [in other words my stupid opinion] there's a bunch of truth and error in PFAL and it sometimes takes a serious effort by way of critical thinking to distinguish the two. To say "truth is still truth no matter who speaks it" or the math analogy "2 + 2 = 4" is to make a gross assumption. I mentioned this in an earlier post – PFAL is a patchwork of various theological systems and that the class isn't just straight Bible – VPW quotes parts of it and then makes comments.

If I were to use the math analogy I would liken the class to a physicist presenting a thesis. He would present mathematical equations [truth] along with his theories, findings, conclusions, etc. Someone good at math could check the physicist's math…In regards to doctrinal error in the class – we need to check the verses [truth] that he refers to in proving his argument – and look at them for ourselves – and ask questions to analyze his theories, conclusions, etc. For instance – just because VPW shows a bunch of verses to suggest there exists a "Law of Believing" – does that make it so? What are the implications of this idea?...I venture to say – I don't think PFAL would stand up to very close scrutiny by any serious Bible student.

T-Bone,

I have not engaged in "equating" the statements I presented with Scripture. There is distinction between Scripture and those statements, perhaps somewhat similarly as there would be distinction between a volume containing all the published works of a composer and a short medley by a nightclub pianist that repeats some fragments and other somewhat altered fragments from the volume. There is proximity of content, however, between the statements and the testimony of Scripture. I do allow, however, that there is some interpretative activity involved in the mere selection of scriptures one attempts to retell.

I do not understand why McGrath categorically characterizes doctrine as something alien from Scripture that serves as an interpretive framework for Scripture. Scripture itself communicates doctrine. Paul's statements in 1 Cor. 15:3-4 reiterate elements of redemptive history that Paul had previously announced and held up as things proper and obligatory to be believed. It seems likely from your previous post that, if pressed, you and your mechanic would recognize there is a doctrinal character to scriptural statements in their purely scriptural habitat.

Cynic, I don't have a problem with any of what you said. I think you're right. Perhaps I'm not communicating my idea very well...I see Scripture as the source of doctrine - I'm not suggesting we pull this "framework" out of thin air. A student of the Bible is seeing things that seem logically associated with other things. And that is what I am drawing the attention to - our mind plays a role in making these associations - in attempting to understand a doctrine.

I think about the differences in doctrines of denominations. In my opinion, that's indicative of people seeing things a little bit differently...We're all looking at the same thing - but we each may notice some nuance of difference...And yes - perhaps my logic is flawed in certain areas, or what I "see" is something coming from a bias I have. That's one of the problems we have as imperfect humans...

I instead mock those who would sit at the feet of a known liar, abuser, and pervert in order to hear "the truth". I mock argument that truth is still truth when taught by the morally corrupt as a defense for continuing in ignorant bliss. ( Kool-aid Drinkers)

Way to go, Goey !!!!!!!!!!!

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Have you tried ministering to your cat? Oh wait - you both have to believe - and it's obvious your attitude has gone downhill.

Happy B-Day, Sirguessalot...looked at your website - some pretty neat stuff!!!!

One time after a long meeting we were late getting to the kitchen [or was it Adam's Alley? or whatever they called it] - and Darth VaderlinDylan in charge of the kitchen would NOT give us our sack suppers...Another time: I was working in the kitchen by myself one morning having to dish out peanut butter. This 5 gallon bucket of peanut butter was soooooooo thick - I think it was Deaf Smith brand - or one of those natural, very very very exceeding abundantly thick kind. I was hungry - usually was [refer back to previous incident]. I put a spoonful of it in my mouth - - - and choked - couldn't breathe. Thoughts are scrambling through my head: a memory of gagging on a peppermint when I was 6 years old, my obituary in Rome City Paper, my wife and kid leaving the campus in shame. I finally heaved it out - but to this day I still love peanut butter - as long as I don't have to be sneaky about eating it.

Okay - I understand the idea - that truth is truth no matter who is speaking it. But here is where I have a problem. I get the idea from the PFAL Patrol that truth is like an Erector Set - you can put all the different pieces together any which way you want. When you have something made up of more than one part it's a system. PFAL is a patchwork of various [and I might add dubious] theological systems.

Very simply - unless he [or anyone] just quotes the Bible - verbatim - you've got something added to the truth. As in - you make a comment about a verse - it may be right - it may be wrong. I don't recall PFAL being non-stop KJV and nothing else. That's what I mean about Erector Set assembly. I question the way he puts it all together on the different topics. Nothing wrong with anyone putting ideas together and making comments, quoting the Bible, etc. I notice "in my opinion" is used a lot on Grease Spot. I use it myself or sometimes use "I think" - I don't see that in PFAL - I think to most simple-minded readers the ideas in PFAL come across as rock-solid, unbiased thoroughly/throughly researched God's honest truth. Of course that's just my opinion - I may be wrong.

Cynic

"Jesus was the Messiah promised in Old Testament scriptures. Jesus was born of a virgin. Jesus suffered and died. Jesus made propitiation for sins. Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus ascended into heaven. Jesus will return from heaven. Jesus will have his elect gathered. Jesus will render vengeance to them who know not God and who do not obey the gospel.

The preceding paragraph consists of a topical collection of propositional statements based on indications of various scriptures. There is no single place in Scripture that states all that is affirmed by those statements. The statements have a historical/eschatological aspect and an aspect of communicating proper belief, thus are doctrinal in character.

The statements elude McGrath's rather Kantian account of the relationship between Scripture and doctrine, however, because they function to repeat biblical testimony, rather than to interpret it. I think it doubtful that you or McGrath could find many thoughtful and informed theologians, philosophers, teachers, accountants, mechanics, painters, barflies, or strippers either to conclude the statements are vacant of doctrinal content or to separate them from Scripture by characterizing them as a humanly constructed interpretive framework."

Cynic, we [the informed mechanic helping me adjust the carburetor on my truck and myself] agree those statements are full of doctrinal stuff. But we fail to see your reasoning in equating them with Scripture. And I'm NEVER loaning any books to an informed stripper ever again!

In my opinion, many of these arguments about PFAL's relationship to the Bible is like comparing apples to oranges. I thought PFAL was supposed to be an aid to Bible study [in other words it's NOT the Bible]- "designed to set before the reader the basic keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold…" [in VPW's own words, page 4 of PFAL]. It would make more sense to compare it to other books that also claim to help the reader understand the Bible. There's a lot of them out there. An analogy may illustrate the way I see Bible study aids. The information in the Bible is like a valuable resource [a gold mine]. Books that help me dig for the gold are tools. The tools are not the gold. Some people think their tools are made of gold.

I can't help but think that the people who are so enamored with PFAL are easily impressed or haven't done much "comparison shopping." It's as if they've been going grocery shopping for years at the corner convenience store. They're missing the variety and specials at Costco's or Wal-Mart. This is merely my opinion, of course, but when I compare the PFAL book with other Bible study books I see a WORLD of difference . And to be fair to VPW we ought to just reference the PFAL book and not the class – because he really gets sloppy in the class.

The biggest differences I see between VPW and other books of the same type are: VPW's inconsistency with his use of the keys to biblical interpretation; not citing a bibliography or references – I'd like to read his reference for myself [the issue of VPW's plagiarism is a whole other well-documented exposé as well - - but we'll get back to beating that dead stolen horse some other time]; PFAL discourages critical thinking, ignoring other viewpoints, very rigid mind-set. All this is just my opinion, of course. You'll have to read these other books and compare them yourself like I did – get your own opinion.

The PFAL book is a blend of Bible study aid, Commentary, and Systematic Theology [though very simplistic in all three areas - sort of at the convenience store/bootleg level]. So, I have listed below a few books that I think do a better job [in other words a more effective tool] in those categories:

Bible Study Aid

How to Enjoy the Bible by E.W. Bullinger [hey, it was good enough for VPW]

Understanding the Bible by John R.W. Stott

What to do on Thursday: A Layman's Guide to the Practical Use of the Scriptures by Jay E. Adams

How to get the Most out of God's Word by John MacArthur, Jr.

How to Study Your Bible by Kay Arthur

30 Days to Understanding the Bible by Max Anders

Bible Explorer's Guide: How to Understand and Interpret the Bible by John Phillips

Living by the Book by Howard G. Hendricks & William D. Hendricks

Biblical Hermeneutics: A Comprehensive Introduction to Interpreting Scripture by Bruce Corley, Steve W. Lemke, Grant I. Lovejoy

Let the Reader Understand: A Guide to Interpreting and Applying the Bible by Dan McCartney and Charles Clayton

Introduction to Biblical Interpretation by William W. Klein, Craig L. Blomberg, Robert Hubbard

Commentary

The Believer's Bible Commentary by William MacDonald

The New Bible Commentary: Revised edited by D. Guthrie, J.A. Motyer, A.M. Stibbs, D.J. Wiseman

Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary Kenneth L. Barker & John R. Kohlenberger III Consulting Editors

The Bible Knowledge Commentary Editors John F. Walvoord & Roy B. Zuck

Systematic Theology

Christian Theology by Millard J. Erickson

Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Wayne Gruden

Systematic Theology by Louis Berkhof

Understanding Christian Theology Charles R. Swindoll and Roy B. Zuck, General Editors

The above books are tools. No tool is perfect. I like reading other viewpoints. Sometimes I agree – sometimes disagree with the authors. But either way it's great for encouraging thinking.

Oh Hey!!!! My hubs just came up with a great one...

SIT is also a dog command.

That would make a good cartoon: a dog saying "I SIT more than ye all." [my wife said "as long as the dog doesn't S_IT on the carpet."

Are you claiming them all or can I snag a few?

Take whatever u want - just remember - if they're a hit u got it from me - if they bomb u thought them up...and we never had this conversation...

Excerpts from T-Bone's Journal:

Today I'm trying to come up with a new signature line...

Now unto him that is able to confuse others far better than he confuses himself

From the man who figured it all out – but threw away the notes

I too have the gift ministry of an idiot

I was so disappointed with the lousy job the Cults are doing – that I started my own

If you're having a hard time rightly dividing the Word – try changing the Batteries in your Calculator

Milking the Word until the Cows come home [i'm mooving the Word]

I literally believed myself into a state of unbelief just to prove the Law of Believing works [but now I don't believe it works]

I have so renewed my mind that I cannot tell where my thoughts end and the LSD begins

I'd like to hear what you, doojable say about this, as well as Tom Strange, What the Hey, dmiller, CM, Raf and a any others posting here lately. Just where do you get the idea that "the bible was ever was 'the word'" to put it in My3Cents' words. Got any evidence?

If that's a 2 part question my answer is the same for both - the Bible.

Garth, I hope I didn't come off as being super-critical of doctrine, or of systematic theology - I was trying to make the point that sometimes we're not aware of how our beliefs shape our viewpoint...CM, I like your phrase "just exploring different ways of thinking."...

I actually like watching the first few episodes with all the try-outs. I'm amazed at how the people who can't carry a tune are not shy - singing on National TV! I haven't kept up with it lately - although that one guy's voice I like - didn't get his name - has gray hair, bluesy voice, and moves like Joe Cocker.

CoolChef, there's a couple of parallel Bibles that are handy. One is The Essential Evangelical Parallel Bible which has New King James Version, English Standard Version, New Living Translation and The Message [from Oxford University Press]. The other is Comparative Study Bible which has NIV, KJV, NASB, and Amplified [from Zondervan].