Suda

Garth,

Now, following that line of reasoning posed by such a comparison, why shouldn't Allah be thrown into the mix? ... Or Vishnu? ... Or Thor? ... Or the Native American spirits? ........ And with the same intensity and loyalty that is shown by people who doggedly latch on the the Christian deity.

For those who experienced and/or saw what they considered to be “signs, miracles, and wonders” in their lives personally and/or in the lives of others, if they attributed these things to something other than God, they may have adopted another belief system. It may be another religion or it may be atheism or agnosticism.

I can follow your logic in the following statement, and your answer seems very reasonable to me.

With that statement, in response to Sunesis' question of how we could simply walk away from God so easily, I am simply stating that once I stopped believing in Santa Claus, I never had to 'say goodbye' as it were, because I've come to the conclusion that Santa doesn't exist.

Do you believe any adult, not suffering from a medically recognized mental impairment (for example Down Syndrome, Alzheimers) believes there is a Santa Claus? Using the scientific method, do you think it could be proven whether or not he exists?

Do you believe any adult, not suffering from a medically recognized mental impairment (for example Down Syndrome, Alzheimers) believes there is a Jesus Christ that they have accepted as their personal Lord and Savior? Using the scientific method, do you think it could be proven whether or not he exists?

Well, when you stop and realize that believing both concepts are based on faith, why would one concept naturally be more expected to be believed in than the other, other than social expectation and peer pressure to believe so? There is proof for neither Jesus Christ rising from the dead, nor the existance of Santa Claus.

If a poll was taken of adults - as large a sample size as needed - from adults not suffering from a medically recognized mental impairment. and they were asked: "If you celebrate Santa Claus in your home, who is the deliverer of the gifts from Santa under the tree. (A) you or someone else you know, including a charitable organization, or (B) a man in a red suit arrives on my roof via a sleigh driven by reindeer, enters my dwelling, and leaves the presents." What % do you honestly believe would answer (B)? Of the adults you know that celebrate Santa in their homes, in discussions with them on the subject, how many have told you (A) is the case? how many say (B) is the case?

From the adults I know 100% would answer (A). I feel comfortable extrapolating that to the world at large. Given that, I think it can be verified that there is no Santa, even to Virginia (if she is still alive today).

Suda

Chas,

Sure miss seeing you! Hope your day was awesome in every way!

Let me be brief...

Have the birthday of your dreams!

XOXOXOXOXO,

Suda

P.S. What are your guys gonna be for Halloween?

Today, 10:12 PM Post #167 George Aar

<snip>

I don't even know what the supposed "fellowship" we were having with Jesus even looked like.

<snip>

But I never did. Never. - NO, not

I understand this, George. It goes back to my first "bottom line". I think those that did/do experience a personal relationship with God and/or Jesus Christ, feel that this is "proof enough" to them that they exist, and why it would take something cataclysmic to sway their belief. For those who never experienced anything along these lines, I can see why they could easily walk away.

A previous post of mine tells one of the miracles I experienced early in my twi days. I had experienced quite a few before then, also, and still experience them today.

It is easy for me to see why we ended up at different places. That makes me think no less (nor anymore) of you. Still value you for the person you are.

Suda

Still pryaing for you and Jeff.

Thanks, Paw. Your efforts are always appreciated greatly.

Suda

Garth,

This question is asked honestly.

Hey, I never said Goodbye to Santa Claus when I stopped believing in him.

Do you believe any adult, not suffering from a medically recognized mental impairment (for example Down Syndrome, Alzheimers) believes there is a Santa Claus? Using the scientific method, do you think it could be proven whether or not he exists?

Do you believe any adult, not suffering from a medically recognized mental impairment (for example Down Syndrome, Alzheimers) believes there is a Jesus Christ that they have accepted as their personal Lord and Savior? Using the scientific method, do you think it could be proven whether or not he exists?

Suda

Thanks for the headsup, WordWolf. Appreciate it.

Someone to Watch Over Me

Mimi Rogers

The Mirror Has Two Faces

Belle,

Here's wishing all your birthday dreams come true!

Every little girl wants a pony for her birthday, but things change when we get older.

Now we want a stud. Happy Birthday!

Suda

Thanks for posting the tune. Nice one! Don't recollect ever hearing it before.

Suda

Thanks for the input, Belle and Bramble.

Suda

Fan

Tazmanian Devil

? (Will have to confer with my cartoon expert, my son)

Golfer, swing, or Tom's hint Fore

Just a wild guess "Fantastic Four"

Suda (never heard of such a title, but that's nothing new!)

Oakspear, I have, but have been left swimming in a pool of confusion. My s.o.p. is to go to the source first. It that is unfruitful, I seek input elsewhere.

Suda

P. S. Edited to correct a typo.

Good job, Ca dreaming and Tom! And yep, it's Maya Angelou - just couldn't place her.

Suda

dmiller,

Praying for your dad, you, and all your family. So glad that you are with them in this time of concern and need.

Suda

My last question regarding atheists routinely attending church is this, how widespread is this phenomena? This question arose from reading posts such as the following. In the thread “Sharon’s Stroke is God’s Wrath” in the Doctrinal Forum, I found these posts and added bold print to them.

... that must be an awful situation to be in. An agnostic (or worse) minister. I've wondered that there must be a lot of them... especially the ones who go to bona fide seminaries and learn the truth about sacred writings. Maybe they didn't see it until they were married with a family to support and are now stuck in a job where they have to act like they believe something they don't. Kinda' like Congressmen.

I’d love to know how many skeptics there really are at this church like myself but I dare not bring it up. You know how true believers are, ... there's no greater sin than not believing. So I wonder in silence.

If it is widespread, what are the motivations? I have cited above what some of them may be: a love for the music, a vehicle for community service, a place for social interaction or fellowship. But as these “needs” could be easily met outside of a religious organization, what is the motivation for satisfying them through church?

Some people may ask, ‘Suda, why are you putting so much time and effort into this? Don’t you have a life outside of GSC?’ My answer might follow this analogy of earthquakes and houses. Twi and post-twi journeys to many of us were like living through an earthquake. After the dust had settled, those houses that had not been utterly destroyed, were shaken and in disarray, but now located on an altered, yet somewhat stable, ground. Some came to the decision that salvaging their house wasn’t worth the trouble, so they packed up their families and what belongings they could salvage and found a new place to dwell. Others, like me, decided to tackle the arduous task of putting things back in order, piece by piece, as slowly as necessary, and as surely as they could. They believed it was well worth the effort to mend it and make the best of it, with hope that the house, once retrofitted, could be even better than before the earthquake. They loved their house and would do all within their power not to lose it. And as we all know, GSC is a forum which has helped most of us regain some sense of peace and stability in those areas that were shattered by the earthquake of twi and it’s influences. So sometimes posting here in a quest to find new information is a vital part of our lives outside of cyberworld.

Suda (glad the earthquake is over, and hoping the after-shocks are, too)

The following posts appear to contradict one another. Both appear in the thread “What Could Make You Believe.” The different colored font is supplied by me.

There are those of us (I can speak only for myself on this thread) who see no evidence that there are any gods whatsoever and don't have a theistic view of the world. Seems to me that makes us a-theists or a-religionists, if you prefer. But we have to accept that we too could be wrong. How can we deny that Jesus is the Christ for certain? Doing so would make us have a belief system like the rest of you guys. Doesn't have anything to do with "backbone". It has to do with intellectual honesty.

You on the other hand, seem not to be able to admit that you could possibly be wrong. This in the face of admitting you are a man of faith. That is intellectual dishonesty, IMO.

Re:"Do you completely reject Christ as lord? It's not that difficult a question, is it?"

Don't know why this is so important to you but OK.. No.. I can't say beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is not lord of lords and all that but I also can't say positively that there ain't no Tooth Fairy either.

Let’s talk honestly about the Tooth Fairy for a moment. I am certain that I replaced the teeth under my children’s pillows with a dime I took from my wallet and shined to a sheen. (Yeah, I'm a cheap tooth fairy. Reading The Berstain Bears books led my children to expect a shiny new dime, and I did not disappoint them). I know that the Tooth Fairy is just a story and have no problem extrapolating that fact to society at large. I know of no adult (who does not suffer from some sort of mental impairment) that believes there is a Tooth Fairy. I can state confidently that there is no Tooth Fairy.

Now the question of whether or not Jesus is Lord depends upon your belief. The existence of God and/or Jesus Christ cannot be proven nor dis-proven scientifically. I believe an experiment following the scientific method would prove that the Tooth Fairy does not exist, but is the child’s parent/guardian/another person. So to equate an unknown reality with a known reality, is to say the reality of Jesus as Lord = the reality of the Tooth Fairy. Thus, the atheist to infers both to be false as a “matter of fact”. In doing so, it indicates the atheist is unwilling to accept that he/she could be wrong, and thus is exhibiting, in his/her own words, intellectual dishonesty. I’m pretty sure I saw the same type “argument” presented in one of the links provided by Oakspear, and found it to be without logic there, also, because possibly untrue does not equal untrue.

The above exchanges might also be seen as bravado. Sometimes when people are uncertain, they mask their insecurity with bravado. Sometimes it also is used to “bully” others into silence by making oneself unapproachable on the subject. It could be that some of the posts here at GSC that come across as being mean, bitter, venomous, degrading, or belittling are actually just bravado. Soul searching can be uncomfortable and make one feel confused, uncertain, and vulnerable. Thus they would be quite defensive when pressed on the subject, and might respond emotionally versus logically. Questions could be seen as “goads” versus an honest request for information to understand the other’s point of view more fully. The following post might allude to such. From the About the Way Forum, in the thread “New Way Corps”, with bolding applied by me:

You are in a tough spot not of your making but I have some advice for you. . .

you want your kids growing up to know their grandparents. Why, even YOU want to maintain a relationship with your TWI parents, right? Then keep your mouth shut about what you know and/or suspect about TWI with them. They'll be disappointed that you aren't fellowshipping with "The Ministry" but as long as you aren't disparaging TWI, things can be cool between you all.

Remember that its NOT lying to tell only part of the truth. You can give your parents all kinds of reasons for not taking part in TWI activities that are true without telling them your biggest concerns that might drive a wedge between ya'll. . . ..

. . . do your own thing and just refuse to discuss TWI in any meaningful way with your parents no matter how hard they press you. Say you are uncomfortable discussing it (true) or that you are simply weighing your life options. You know your parents better than I.. but if you let them get you upset and mad... you'll say things that will severely impact your family. DON'T LET THEM GOAD YOU into discussing your current religious beliefs.

Very important to note that the poster stated “as long as you aren't disparaging”. I find many of the former to quotes to be just that, disparaging. The advice seems to be ‘Rather than drive a wedge between you and your parents, just refuse to communicate in any meaningful way’. IMO, such a refusal invites speculation, which leaves the other person still swimming in a pool of doubt. If one will not answer questions posed by another, where does the “another” person get answers to their questions? They may ask others in the same pool in order to gain clarification. That will help tremendously, but still leaves the thoughts of the “silent party” unknown to them.

I sincerely hope that my questions here are not seen as goading, but what they are meant to be, honest questions wanting to understand to the best of my ability why an atheist would choose to be an active member of a church and, further, why would they assume a leadership role as a Sunday School teacheer. My questions and comments above reflect a myriad of perceptions, all of which may be false. I am eager to hear the “rest of story” and have my perceptions proven to be false so I can dismiss them from my thinking. I appreciate the responses from everyone. They are very beneficial to my understanding.

Suda (still endeavoring to understand the journey)

This quote is from the Open ForumThread “I Went to a Unitarian church this Morning” (bolding supplied by me).

Depends on what people are looking for. . . . And then you have folks like me, StayedTooLong, who think theists are like little kids who believe in Santa Claus.. only... they NEVER grow up!! The less demanding their religion, the better for the world. No infidels to kill. No lands to conquer for the True Religion.

But realizing how people LOVE to believe and get great satisfaction from invoking the gods, I try to fit in as best I can. I even teach a Sunday School class at a church where people generally don't know the difference between the Gospels and the Epistles.

It's easy to teach... and I probably sound a lot like what you're hearing from the Unitarian Universalists... that being happy and contented is paramount because quite frankly, this life is all we know for sure that we have. So.. be kind to your fellow man. Do for others as you would have them do for you.

Would seem one “requirement” of the atheist's chosen church is to have little dogma that its members must profess. I know when I was searching for a “family church home” post-twi, that was a requirement so that my conscience would be clear. I would not have to pretend to believe something I did not believe in my heart. But with changes in beliefs concerning God and those who believe in Him, does this poster now find it necessary to pretend adherence to dogma? Is that what is meant by “ I try to fit in as best I can.”? That statement might indicate a knowing that you are not a good fit, but you do your best to blend in and be accepted as “one of them”. This begs the question, at church, is there a need be a “closet” atheist? If one is confident and at ease with his/her beliefs, why would he/she feel a need to hide them rather than share them? Is “fitting in with the crowd” more important than being true to one’s self? How does being closeted bring one personal happiness and contentment?

In all the Sunday School classes I have attended in many different churches, it has been customary for the teacher of the lesson to present at least one scripture reading from the Bible as the basis for the lesson. If an atheist believes the Bible to be myths and fables, is the scripture lesson presented like one of Aesops’s Fables that is not a true story, but teaches a worthy moral lesson? Do they emphasize that personal happiness and contentment are paramount? Or do they emphasize “Be kind to your fellow man. Do for others as you would have them do for you.” Is there a relationship between how one treats others and one’s personal attainment of personal happiness and contentment? Or can you have one without the other? The former concept appears on the surface to be “self-centered” while the latter is “other-centered”, and could be contradictory, if they are not serving the same end.

To me, teaching a Sunday School class goes beyond attendance to enjoy music and the fellowship of people. Teachers accept and place themselves in a role of leadership. It seems contradictory to lead people in a direction one does not believe. In fact, it would seem that the opportunity to teach would an perfect opportunity to present them with information to help them “see the light of their ignorance”. Of course, that would likely be the end of such opportunities. To step from a role of attendee to teacher could indicate that one wishes to be seen as “one of them” and furthers that desire by donning a cloak of respectability that is inherent in leadership positions. This idea might be alluded to in the following post from the “About The Way” forum in the thread entitled “Did the Way make you hard core scripture and verse?” Again, the bolding is mine.

It looks more and more to me that people just have to have their religions to feel like they have purpose in life. Doesn't really matter if they are Muslim, Hindu or Christian. The fact that they BELIEVE (oh Gawd, how the suicide bombers believe) makes them alright.

It's atheists that get the brunt of criticism, you know. Take on faith SOMETHING for Heaven's sake!! Otherwise you'll be branded a heathen or infidel and ripe for the vat of boiling oil.

Could it be a reflection that in some communities, church is the socially accepted place to be on Sunday morning? If that is what is expected of one, it is important to been seen there in order to preserve or enhance one’s reputation in the community? Just seems to me like living a double life. A flip side of that in a religious sense would be “plural” families, those that practice polygamy. Their push to decriminalize polygamy stems from the fact that they despise having to “live a lie” but feel forced to do so in order to protect the hubands and the family welfare. I understand in the secular world the need for some to live a double life such as secret agents, spies, plainclothes police. On the whole, society accepts these as “a dirty job, but someone has to do them” in order to protect our communities and nation. But when the line is crossed to being a double-agent or a dirty cop, there is public outcry and moral outrage because the motivation has moved to self interest rather than the community good. On a federal level, I think it is considered treason and punishable by death. On a state or municipal level, the penalty is not that great, but the “dirty” person’s reputation is ruined and they are banned from wearing the badge there in the future.

And wasn’t it donning a cloak of respectability that has made vpw so despised? Wasn’t he seen as a “double agent” of sorts? Had he been open, upfront, and honest about his “underbelly” motives, he would not have been able to entrap innocent people, and decimate their lives. I fully understand that if someone is an atheist, closeted or open, it does not mean they commit atrocities against people. Some may, most would never.

And doesn’t the Universal Unitarian Church provide a place of worship for people of faith as well as non-faith? It is my understanding that their belief is there may be a God or gods. Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, etc. are all accepted. And they provide sub-groups, maybe even Sunday School formats, for these small groups to fellowship together. Would that not be a more comfortable place for an atheist to worship than a traditional church? Of course, it’s true that many traditional Christians look down upon the Unitarians, and don’t consider them to be real Christians. So fellowshipping there may not allow one to don a “cloak of respectability”.

This quote is from the Doctrinal Thread “Assume for a Moment there is no God” with the bolding supplied by me.

3) "...am currently adopting the manner and words of a devout Catholic in order to comfort my mother, who is likely not long for this world. To me, it matters not at all that I don't believe what I say. What matters is that someone who does believe is comforted and helped."

Absolutely and without a doubt XX you are doing the right thing. My parents are elderly now and they have little inkling that I feel the way I do. It would break their hearts to think that their oldest son was destined for the gates of Hell (they are Southern Baptist) and doomed for all eternity. Uh, This IS the downside of the religion. But notwithstanding.. I'm not going to hurt them for the world. I don't know why most agnostics and atheists think its so important to be so vocal and belittle those of faith. Like, THAT really helps "the cause".

This seems to say that depending upon the situation we find ourselves in, we “go along to get along”. Sometimes it’s best to “bite our tongue” to protect the feelings of others and to preserve our relationship. That I can agree with totally. But it is a stretch for me to understand why one would deliberately place themselves in a position to have to do such for the long-term by being an active member of a church. Why, if when away from the church, that persson feels free to be quite vocal in their disdain for the tenets of it’s belief as well as how foolish most of the attendees at said church are for being “duped” by said tenets?

It is comforting to know that these posters feel the need to protect their elderly and/or infirm parent’s from heartbreak. Are there additional “significant others” in their lives to whose hearts may also be broken when they are informed of the new belief system? If the face-to-face communications with them are as vocal as the written communication in the condemnation of both their religion as well as them for continuing to hold onto to their personal faiths, it might do a lot more damage than just breaking their hearts. (Such communication does not follow the advice given above, as exhibted by a number of their posts: "I don't know why most agnostics and atheists think its so important to be so vocal and belittle those of faith. Like, THAT really helps "the cause".") It could bruise them so extensively that healing will be a long and arduous path for them. And is a choice made to keep parent’s in the dark, while revealing one’s true self to the rest of the significant others? And if so, doesn’t that place an added and unwanted burden on them, to have to deal with the heartbreak in silence? But, I guess, since statistically speaking, the others (family - nuclear and/or extended-, and friends, for instance) may be expected to outlive him/her but the parent’s are not, he/she can keep a lid on his/her beliefs as long as they are alive, but can’t do so forever. It might provide some relief to an atheist to let the “cat out the bag” to some of the significant people in his/her life realizing that there’s never a good time for disappointing, shocking news.

Suda (confused and hoping for enlightment)

The following posts may reflect other motivations for an atheist to attend a church. The bolding is supplied by me. From the “Bowtwi Makes it Through A Church Service” thread:

Well good for you! It made me feel all warm inside reading your post. As you saw, there’s more to church than religious beliefs. In our country’s history, the churches were the center of the community as well. TWI would place folks in communities but they never were a real part of the local goings on.

Whenever did TWI encourage it’s people to get involved in local blood drives, scouting activities or community projects? Not while I was a part of it, for sure. This church you attended on the other hand was actively involved with the local fire fighting and police departments at the very least. Kudos to them. . . .

Find one that has the fellowship you enjoy the most . . . and stay involved in the community. You’ll be richly rewarded.

From “Sharon’s Stroke is God’s Wrath” in the Doctrinal Forum

The Lord bless every one of these members' hearts because they are at this church to do good works... distribute Meals On Wheels©, food baskets to the poor and transportation to the aged and infirm etc.

These posts appear to downplay the religious reasons people attend church, and focus on the other benefits provided by a “church home”. Church is a gathering place for people in the community, and a place to enjoy their fellowship. But aren’t there other gathering places not associated with a religious organization, such as The Lion’s Club, The Jaycee’s, The Toastmaster’s, The Kiwanis Club, The Elks Lodge, to name a few, that would provide the same type of social interaction (fellowship) that can be found at church?

Many of the those organizations also focus on community service. The Lion’s Club serves the blind. Other organizations devoted to service are Special Olympics, The United Way, delivering Meals on Wheels through the food bank rather than a church. There are endless groups who need community service volunteers that do not require participation in a religious organization.

Do people attend church to perform good works? Do they come on Sunday so they can deliver Meals on Wheels? Then who delivers Monday through Saturday? I believe that the good works are a product of their religious beliefs, and their gathering at church is for worship and fellowship with those of common beliefs, NOT to perform good works, although many will do such while there by teaching Sunday School, serving communion, etc. Although it could be argued that some only attend when they are scheduled to perform a particular good work, and refrain from going at other times.

Suda (who thinks church is religious, not secular)

Thanks to a lot of help from my friends, I have “come to grips” with one of my big questions concerning the journey to atheism from Christianity. Many thanks to all for your helpfulness! Part of my “research” included reading previous doctrine-related threads and reading posts by those who are atheist/agnostic/non-theists. I rediscovered some posts that had “rung my bell” previously and strike me as apparent contradictions. I welcome input. I hope that by reading “the rest of the story” my perceptions of contradictions can be proven false, also. My questions are not meant to be personal attacks, accusations, or anything of the sort. They are sincere and honest solicitations for information. I would love to be able to peacefully put these questions to rest in my mind.

From the thread “What Would Make You Believe”, with my emphasis added by a bolded lettering in a different color.

I can't say for certain that there aren't gods any more than I can say there are no Lilliputians. Both are mythical figures in my book. But my doubt that mythical creatures exist is probably equal to you guys' belief that they do exist. So what does that make me? Really.. I don't particularly care what you want to call it. As far as I'm concerned.. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in gods. Plain and simple. But since I can't say for 100% sure.. you want to call me an agnostic? Ho-kay. It's kinda' funny really.

Re:"Do you completely reject Christ as lord? It's not that difficult a question, is it?"

Don't know why this is so important to you but OK.. No.. I can't say beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is not lord of lords and all that but I also can't say positively that there ain't no Tooth Fairy either.

Same atheist/agnostic different thread, “Assume for a Moment there is no God”.

I'll make this short as its not really the topic. Nearly every one of your points is identical with mine.

1) "I don't believe in any sort of deity. That doesn't reflect on my opinion of some religious organizations."

And let me add that *I* even attend church services. Heck, I still love a good gospel song.

We see one possible motivation stated above, the music. When I think of “church music”, two basic types come to mind. My favorite is to “good ole time” gospel music. It reminds me a lot of secular Country music. The other is the more “classical” type. Guess it’s secular counterpart would be closer to opera. My question, aren’t both these genres of music (with or without direct or indirect religious references) available for a person's listening pleasure in live concerts, on TV specials, on the music stations on cable tv, on the radio, or in CD format? If so, is it necessary to attend church to enjoy this music?

Here are my main questions: Is it common practice for an atheist to attend a church, or mosque, or temple, or any other place of worship on a routine basis? If so, what is the motivation or reasoning?

Suda (hoping for clarification from my fellow posters that are atheists as well as any that are not)

#1: looks sorta like Della Reese, but the bottom teeth don't look like her smile. But you may be going for grin, happy, or some similar emotion.

#2: Tammy Faye Bakker Messner, smile, grin, laugh

#3: Grizzly bear or black bear

#4: Cousin It

#5: Marvin the Martian

Still thinking . . .

Suda

Can't wait to listen to it. Great lyrics. Vaguely familiar but not making it's way out of the recesses of my mind.

Suda

I know the face in #1, but will have to wait a while for the ole memory to work it's way out of the recesses of my mind.

Can't see picture #2.

#3: Grizzly bear or black bear

#4: Cousin It

#5: Marvin the Martian

Could it be something along the lines of "Grin and bear it, Marvin" Or "Grin and bear it Martians?"

Suda

johnj, again, marvelous posts, imo. They provide further enlightment to why you consider a Christian-based morality more effective. And nowhere, do I see you bash anyone who makes a different choice.

sky4it, I have great difficulty following your posts. As I don't understand them, I can't make a meaningful response.

Bramble and Oakspear, your posts continue to educate me on your points of view. It's important to me to understand them, not so that I can debate them, but so I can see where others are coming from and why they make those choices. I like that as adults we can agree to disagree. It's even better, imo, when we can appreciate the differences and not see them as points of contention that must be argued. Usually, I find that diversity should be celebrated, not argued.

Suda

P.S. Edited to correct a typo.

Wonderful news! Congratulations to the bride and groom.

Suda

Still praying, too.

We look forward to an update when you are ready.

Suda