Suda

Excathedra and Raf,

I agree wholeheartedly that the sexual abuse by Dr. Wierwille and other leadership, from headquarters all the way down to the twig level, was unconsciounable and inexcusable. And it filtered it's way down to the "rank and file believers" as evidenced by the rampant sexual activity among so many members. It would not surprise me to learn that the majority of hurt inflicted by twi had it's roots in this sexual sphere. I know it certainly caused me enormous amounts of confusion, anguish, condemnation, and hurt that took me years to overcome.

Twi came into it's heydey in the 60's and 70's when the young people in the society at large were in the midst of the sexual revolution, and twi jumped on the bandwagon. Instead of teaching abstinence like the Bible and churches did, they had Christian Family and Sex. While not directly encouraging pre-marital sex and adultery, it put a hefty gray wash on it, and did not discourage or prohibit it, either. Their stance seemed to be to leave it up to each individual to decide for him/herself based upon faulty teaching given in the CFS seminar. The most glaring example to me was the inaccurate handling of I Corinthians 7:1 b " . . . It is good for a man not to touch a woman." and from the context it is apparent it meant in the way he would touch his wife. Obviously if it was not good, then it was bad, and something to avoid. But instead, from my (somewhat faulty) memory, the gist of what was taught was something like 'well, it's not the best thing for you to do, but it's not the worst thing either'. I remember discussing it with the seminar leader and saying that was contrary to what verse 2 said, "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife,and let every woman have her own husband." His response was something like it never specfically stated do not have sex outside of marriage, but he could see where I was coming from in thinking it was certainly implied. So with faulty doctrine such as that, it's no wonder that most people jumped on the "if it feels good, do it" bandwagon and freely experimented with sex with whomever they chose.

But there's a huge difference between two unmarried people consenting to be sexually active, and someone being pressured into a sexual liasion. Seems to me that crap about serving a mog (in whatever leadership capacity he was in) sexually was based upon another CFS erroneous teaching about David being the king, so all the women in the kingdom belonged to him, so technically there was nothing wrong with him sleeping with Bathsheba. His error was in having Uriah killed in battle to coverup the pregnancy. Well, if it was okay for David to bed her, and it was known that sexual intercourse often resulted in pregnancy, then why would there have been a problem with her becoming pregnant? Why a need to cover it up? Coverups aren't necessary for things that are right, so David bedding her must have be wrong even if he were the king. Somehow, David's status as king and was equated to that of a mog, and a King's access to anyone in his kingdom was equated to the a mog's access to anyone in his realm of influence. As it was complete bull and, therefore, confusing, I was never able to understand it then, and have trouble restating it here. And then there was that malarkey about Paul being ministered to by the women in the areas he visited. And somehow their ministering was stretched from the customary components of hospitality in meeting his physical needs for food, drink, and shelter, all the way to meeting his sexual needs also.

And all the loosey-goosey teaching then led to it being okay for brothers- and sisters-in-Christ to bless each other by taking care of each others sexual needs. I even heard junk like it being perfectly acceptable for a married, male twig coordinator to minister to the sexual needs of his single, female twigettes. Yes indeed, the whole sexual arena was out-of-control inside twi and outside during that horrid sexual revolution, the effects of which are continuing to ruin our society today.

And, yes, against my better judgment, I got caught up in it also. After being raped in college (thankfully by an unknown intruder, not someone I knew and trusted) I decided if my chastity belt could be ripped off by a stranger, I might as well choose my partner(s) and enjoy the ride. Stupid decision, devoid of logic, but one I made just the same, and paid hell for it. And after CFS, I assuaged my guilt with information I knew in my heart to be untrue. (My, how far we will go to try and defend to ourselves the poor decisions we make. But our conscience is always in there fighting for us to face the truth and get back on track. The majority of my hurt stemmed from me letting myself down, from allowing myself to get involved in a relationship I knew was wrong deep down in my heart. But under the influence of youthful lust, and persuasion based upon CFS bull by a mog I trusted, I rationalized it and allowed myself to proceed. The hard part for me was for forgiving myself, not forgiving others.)

Excathedra, my heart goes out to you for the abusive way he treated you. As I said earlier, it was both

unconsciounable and inexcusable. I pray that God will heal your heart.

In the sexual arena, I agree with you Raf that

Wierwille taught various things from multiple sources, but one thing he did was to twist the Word and his position as a minister in Christ's body to satisfy his lusts. Some people looked at him as a father, and he, in turn, looked at them as conquests. To say he abused his position is an understatement.

Very easy to focus on the positive when he didn't have you escorted into his motorcoach where he could greet you with an open robe and a glass of liquor (or heaven forbid, worse).

Although he never directly harassed me sexually, the CFS school of thought led to me being sexually harassed on numerous occasions by others (leadership, corp, and lay wayfer). And when I went against my better judgment, it resulted in the immense heartache I mentioned earlier in this post. I accept my responsibility for the poor decision I made and have finally been able to forgive myself. I have also been able to work through the hurt, anger and confusion towards the other party, and forgive him, also. And I pray for both healing for and forgiveness from anyone hurt by my actions as I know that poor decisions always hurt others, also.

But despite all that has happened, I will still focus on the postive, and be thankful for the many benefits I received from Dr. Wierwille's right teachings and my time with twi. To me, the positives do outweigh the negatives. As for

People are so loathe to judge Wierwille. Well, you're judging him. You get to unilaterally decide that the good he did far outwieghed the bad. I hate to break it to you, but that is an insult to the people he abused, and the systematic way he abused them.

I do not see how expressing my opinion of my experience equates to me making a unilateral decision (nor declaration) representing everyone ever associated with twi. I speak for myself only, and hope that my opinions will not be misinterpreted as insults directed towards anyone. And, yes we agree that

I think we're all capable of sifting through it, keeping what fits and tossing out the rest. But that requires an honest look at what he taught.

Bowtwi,

So sorry for your evil treatment in twi and the hurt and confusion it caused you. Am glad you seem to have worked through a lot of it and experienced healing in those areas. I doubt that anyone has walked away from twi, or any other organization for that matter, without hurt and confusion because of the actions and words of some leader off their rocker. I am thankful for all the healing in my life related to twi and am glad I have reached a point where the past is the past, I can leave it behind and enjoy embarking on my future.

As for

"Annieways, I wanted to tell you that I've been praying for you and your family for years now (since I found waydale) and I'm impressed that you and your Mr. can have different views yet stay together all these years. And you have lovely children, if I do say so myself."

I appreciate the prayers for our family as I am sure they helped us through some very difficult times. It has not been easy making the transition as a couple from "like-mindedness" to "polar opposites". In fact, it has been and continues to be dam* hard work. We have to remember to respect

.......I think that it is nice to discuss differing points of view respectfully with one another....

as rascal stated. Yelling matches are minimized now, but it has been difficult for us as well as our children. Unfortunately, because their parents were at such great odds, they pretty much chose their own paths, so we are totally disjointed spiritually as a family. I go to a home fellowship which my husband refers to as "a cult, full of lies, total bullsh**"; he attends and teaches Sunday School at our former church, a Christian (Disciples of Christ) congregation, because it is what he feels is socially acceptable and expected, which I call "hypocritical"; our eldest daughter occasionally visits the First Chinese Baptist Church with her boyfriend (who is not Asian, but Caucasian, and it always tickled me when I picked them up and they were the only non-Asians there); our middle daughter joined a local Baptist Church several years ago and did not even tell us for fear of what the news might cause in our household (which really hurts my heart deeply that she does not feel comfortable discussing spiritual matters with me, but I'm thrilled she has found a place to worship that she enjoys); and our son limits his "church" attendance to weekly Chapel services at school, and has recently started reading his Bible daily, and does discuss spiritual topics with me occasionally. As a mother, I feel that my primary responsibility towards my children is to bring them up in the nurture and admonition of God, and that is a major challenge daily due to the spiritual mayhem in our household. But God continues to answer my prayers related to them, as well as to healing to marriage and relationship with my husband. The situation is not what I envisioned when we married, but I am thankful for our mutual respect for one another, our similar morals and values, and the hope that our relationship will continue to grow better and better each day. He is a good man, I love him, and we do the best we can in resolving our differences.

Well, sorry to go off on that tangent. Sudo keeps warning me that GSC is addictive. We'll see if that's true for me. Sure am enjoying the posting so far.

God Bless!

Thanks for all the welcomes to this thread. It's good to know we can disagree, but still share ideas and learn from each other.

In reading through threads, it seems one of the major points on controversy on VPW's teaching was that he plagiarized from others and did not credit them in his teachings and/or written works. Plagiarism is unethical and if he is guilty (and seems he may be from the research many here at GSC have done) it is a flaw in his character. Call me naive or whatever, but I was always under the impression that he had learned much from the research of others and taught those portions he believed to be true. I was more interested in the content of teachings than the sources from which they were gleaned. In written works, I agree sources should have been noted. But I don't really care who the source of right doctrine is, as long as I have the opportunity to hear it and judge for myself whether to accept it or not. Maybe I was lucky, but I never felt pressured to accept or believe something just because he or any other person taught it. I always felt free to question, and felt encouraged to do so. How many times were we told not just to accept something at face value, but to research it ourselves, see if it fit with the rest of the Word, and decide for ourselves. That was the only way to "make it your own" and have it become a part of your belief system.

From some of the posts I've read, it would seem that many did not feel free to question, and that is a tragedy. I am thankful they escaped such an oppressive environment. Had I ever felt that my twi experience was dominated by "If VPW/Leadership said it, that settles it" versus "God said it, that settles it" I would have left immediately. In fact, that's when I did leave when the mark and avoid teachings came out. They did not ring true to me from the beginning, and I realized that the twi I had loved and enjoyed no longer existed and I wanted no part of the shell that was left in it's place. When that weekend seminar ended, so did my affiliation with twi as an organization. I still kept it touch (and still do) with friends I made during my twi tenure, and highly treasure many of those friendships. I guess I received the mark and avoid stamp, also, as some people chose not to associate with me after that. I counted it their loss, not mine, and kept on living my life.

I will always be immensely thankful for the time I spent with twi and for the foundation it laid enabling me to develop a personal, intimate relationship with God. And I credit Dr. Wierwille's teachings for the majority of this, whether it was his "original" knowledge, or that he gleaned/plagiarized from others. I will always be thankful for his life and ministry and the positive effect it had on my life and many others. Since my twi days I have continued to grow spiritually, and cannot imagine life not centered in God and His Word. My heart goes out to all of those who were hurt and threw out everything, including God and the Bible. I am thankful I was able to leave the bad behind, and take the good forward with me.

It is certain that if someone chose to examine my life there would no paucity of garbage and imperfections to be found in both the trail I've left behind and my current path. Along the way I have tried to right the wrongs I made and I know that my future holds many more errors I will make. But I hope that despite the bad in my life, I will have made positive contributions that will outshine and outlive the negatives. To me, the good in Dr. Wierwille's life and ministry far outweigh the negatives. I choose to focus on the good and not the bad, and build from there.

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts, from one non-greasespot to another. (Will have to check with Sudo on that terminology - think greasespotters are those who post here, and a non-greasespot is one who left twi and did not end up a greasespot by midnight. So I guess they could be one in the same.)

After pop, I decided to go to the seminar about "what really happened" and heard the teachings on mark and avoid. I confronted the leader on how off the Word that was. That seminar proved to me that the Way I had known and loved was no longer is existence, and I had no desire to be a part of what had taken it's place.

Thanks for replying, Kathy. It was nice chatting with you, also.

I know my beliefs will differ signficantly from those of many people on this site, but I may find that they are similar to many, also. As my husband and I disagree on so much regarding God and the Bible, I am learning to not get emotionally involved in such discussions, just to listen and glean whatever jewels there may be in the conversation.

Yes, Mrs. Sudo I am. Thanks for the welcome. My husband spends so much time here, I thought I'd drop in for a while and get to know his on-line freinds. I've met several when we've traveled to places they live. Like everyone I've met so far.

I posted a reply, but it did not show up. I guess I'm still too new at this.

The gist of it was, despite all his imperfections, I am still thankful for what I learned from him and always will be. It was through PFAL that I finally learned how to develop an intimate relationship with God. I can't imagaine life without it.

My handle means sudo is mine, and I am his.

Some people may say I'm a Wierwille-ite in that I still enjoy his teachings and find that they are full of truth. I am so thankful for his life and ministry because it was PFAL that finally taught me how to research and understand the Bible. He was never a god to me, but my Father in the Word, and I will always love him for that. I think he would hate people making a god out of him because he taught against that so often. It's just a pity that so many people magnify the negatives in his life above the Word that he taught. He died, but the truth he taught never will.