Suda

MarkOMalley,

Had to look up the word apostate before I could answer your post.

And the aswer is unequivocally, no. I could not become an apostate. My love for God has been central to my life for as long as I can remember. It is the most defining component of my life.

After my parents had died, and we siblings were cleaning out the house, we found folders that our mother had kept of major projects/assignments in elementary school. In the 2nd grade we had to "write" a fill in the blank autobiography with statements like "My name is ____________." To the one, "When I want to grow up I want to be a _____________." my response was "good Christian." (I assume the answer the teacher was looking for was teacher, nurse, or some other vocation). When I read it some 40 odd years later (I did not even remember the assignment) it brought tears of joy to my eyes, realizing that my spiritual walk hand in hand with God had been the desire of my heart since childhood. And to this day, this is still what I want to be as I continue to grow older and wiser. Living a Christian lifestyle is my vocation.

Pirate1974,

Thanks for the background on Easter Monday. Very interesting.

And to all of you, Happy Easter or Resurrection Sunday or whatever you wish to call it.

Greeting to all you Campers and Groupies of all Categories,

First of all, my apologies for trying to pigeonhole the wonderful people here at GSC into any kind of groupings. Suffice it say that our one common thread is twi, and our experiences and reactions are too diverse to be narrowed down into a few groups. Any attempt to do so can easily elicit negative feedback, because generalizations can never capture the myriad of viewpoints posted here. I very much enjoy reading the differing perspectives and have learned a great deal from the variety on the menu here. The diversity at the GreaseSpot Café is to be celebrated, not homogenized.

Shazdancer, I so agree with your statement,

“But the bottom line is, a person can live an ethical and kind life and not profess to believe in PFAL, or even Christianity. Likewise, plenty of people have incorporated what they learned from TWI into a loving lifestyle.”

And a home with the peaceful co-existence of two ex-twi’ers would be the result from the above if each could be content with the other’s choice, and refrain from the “ verbal digs and arguments” in an attempt to force the other to accept their point of view. And when change is not effected, then escalate into bitterness and hostility, in hopes the other can be cowed into acceptance. What seems to be missing is

“ Can you both respect in each other that desire to want to be better? Does that empathy keep the love going?”.

Both parties here have been guilty of lacking respect and empathy, and are working on having them be the norm in our home again.

ChasUFarley’s thread on Becoming Agnostic was wonderful for me. Her opening questions were great.

“I have trouble relating to people on a spiritual level who claim they are agnostic. . . . The people I'm referring to are people who were in TWI. They spoke in tongues. They probably went WOW. They probably even saw God or some supernatural being work in their lives at some point - something amazing had to have happened.... sometime, somewhere....So, how does one become agnostic? Do you just wake up and go "gee, what God?" or did you think it over slowly and gradually say, "nope, no such thing!" . . . These are honest questions - not narrow minded - just wondering... how?”

The major hurt and confusion in my life resulting from my years with twi did not rear it’s ugly head until about 15 years after we left. We both we in agreement that it was time to leave after the POP mess and the mark and avoid teachings came out. But we remained a Christian couple, and raising our children in a Christian household was of upmost importance to both of us. We visited local churches, and found one that we were comfortable attending. We were both very involved. Hubby taught Sunday School, became a deacon, was chairman of several committees. I taught adult and pre-school Sunday School, Children's Church, Vacation Bible School, worked with children's choir. I finally left after about 7 years when I was told I was no longer welcome, but hubby stayed on (and still teaches Sunday School there now). The kids and I visited other churches, but never found one for the family. The girls found ones they liked where a lot of their friends attended. Son attended with his cousins on occasion. And I found a home fellowship that was run by ex-corps that had moved back into the area. So we all had our church homes we liked, although not together, which would have been our preference. Then, as I start taking my son to fellowship with me, the bombshell hits, hubby announces he is an atheist and heated arguments fly over whether or not my son will be allowed to attend with me. I felt like I was in the middle of a Twilight Zone episode. How does my husband go from being a Christian to an atheist? And why does an atheist still attend church and teach Sunday School? There had been signs along the way, remarks about lots in the Bible being myths rather than truth, no more prayer as a family or a couple, but I had accepted his explanation that he was confused about some things and was sorting things out. I know people go through times of questioning their faith and can accept that, I just wasn’t ready for the I am an atheist stance. Believing as I do, that marriage is an institution ordained by God, not a piece of paper you pick up from the local justice of the peace, I was floored, really upset. To my mind, it was like the end of our marriage when he threw God out of the equation. It has taken several years, but I have finally been able to accept the wide chasm in our beliefs. (He tells me now he considers himself to be a Christian because he believes in the basic tenets of the religion - of being a good, moral, decent, ethical person - which he is and has always been. Of course, many religions teach these same basic principles, so he couldn’t he just as well consider himself to be Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.?). Nor was I ready for the don’t take my son around that cult who teaches nothing but bullsh** stance and his venomous attacks on my beliefs. After all, didn’t he often consult twi materials (among other reference materials) in preparing his Sunday School lessons? I had never been one to accept what vpw and/or twi taught hook, line, and sinker. If it did not make sense to me, if my research did not bear it out, I didn’t buy it. And I never had any qualms about taking my questions to my local leadership and discussing them. While in twi, I was always blessed with great local leadership who did not frown on questions nor demand blind acceptance of teachings from hq. If that hadn’t been the case, I would have been out of there in a heartbeat. So the long and the short of it is, we are still working through our differences, and both are committed to finding a zone of peaceful co-existence. We’re not there yet, but I think we will eventually arrive.

Due to the bitter attacks I have received from him, as well as from others (some anti-twi, some twi-friendly, and some with no knowledge of twi) I guess I’m sensitive when I feel a post here carries that same venomous tone. And I have seen VERY FEW here, less than a handful. I have no problem with heated discussions and venting - in fact, I think they are beneficial. But attacks are something else. I know when I attacked my husband in the atheist aftermath, it was due to my confusion, hurt, and anger. I had to work through the turmoil of those emotions before I could get out of the attack mode and be able to have logical, calm disagreements and/or discussions. That is why when I think I detect that kind of bitterness here, it concerns me for that person. Working through the turmoil is painful and at times it seems it would be easier to just put a lid on it, and stay put in that place, versus pushing on. But if you stay stuck, things just fester and boil and come rushing out in a negative way. Though it’s hard, I think it’s much better to “face midnight” and keep pushing yourself until your heart is empty of the garbage, so true healing can take place. Over the past several years I have dealt with lots of personal garbage only to find that when one can is empty, another is waiting to be dealt with. But I’m glad I still have the stamina to keep with it, and hope that one day soon it will all be out at the curb ready for final pick up and disposal.

I do not mean to come across as airing dirty laundry in public. I think a major purpose of the GSC is a forum for people to come and discuss their questions and concerns, and use the feed back from others to help them through the healing process. Our differences in beliefs is common knowledge here, and I’m sure that the marital discord my husband and I are working through due to the divergent paths our journeys of faith took us after leaving twi are not unique. I obviously love him dearly or I would not strive so diligently to repair the damage in our relationship (and vice versa). In fact, the reason I am here at all is because of his constant urging over the last several years to visit and learn in hopes that we could come to a more common ground concerning our mind-set on twi.

Temple Lady, as I am still a relative newcomer to GSC, you would be in a better position than I to know

That would be a valid observation if it were not for the fact that the most venemous of posters are, not the ones who were wounded by TWI, but the ones who are in the camp of "TWI was great and so was VPW".

I have seen bitter posts from twi-friendly as well as anti-twi. I haven’t had enough exposure yet to be able to keep tabs. (By the way, I’ve really enjoyed learning more about the LDS from your thread. Our dental hygienist is LDS and I’ve learned a lot from her, and we have been comparing notes on Big Love - am glad it’s not slamming your church.)

Belle, so true, the sweetness of my twi days was always at the grassroots level.

Ex10, yes, I think 99% of the posters here are venting, just as I am doing now. Guess I’ve blown the 1% that come off as bitter out of proportion. But it’s what stirred a response from me because of my internal churning as I continue to work through the garbage in my own life.

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts. I look forward to any feedback. I know it will be helpful to me.

Barbara Hershey

The Right Stuff

Sam Shepard

Ooops - I was supposed to get back with on the cost of the suite. Here's what I have

Cost of 2 bedroom suite (very comfortable for 6, could easily add in more) Cost including 14.85% tax is $199.51 per night, or $399.01 for two nights. Divided 6 ways, it is $66.50 each for a 2 night stay.

Cost of 1 bedroom suite (very comfortable for 4, could easily add in more) Cost including 14.85% tax is $143.50 per night, or $287.01 for two nights. Divided 4 ways, it is $71.75 each for a 2 night stay.

So, the more the merrier, and the cheaper per person!

Ex10,

In this particular thread, the only person I think is striking with venom in ckmkeon. And I feel for him because he does appear to be stuck. He's so confused that he seems incapable of taking in any new information that could help him escape his plight. And the irony of all this, is that ckmkeon is more aligned with camp 1, and it was his bitterness and venom that set me off and prompted my initial post. But I got sidetracked on the war zone between the two camps, and addressed that rather than ckmkeon's refusal to entertain new information and his habit of just striking back with venom.

I know that many posters experienced atrocities at the hands of way ministers and my heart and prayers are with them in their healing process. Although the perpetrators have not acknowledged the he11 they caused in the lives of their victims, other posters here have done so. This validation seems to be helping those who were victimized receive some healing in those areas of their life. For many, it will be a long process, and my prayers will continue to be with them throughout their journey.

Initially, I was confused by your statement "please don't judge others by your own experience". But after re-reading my post, I can understand where you would think that I was addressing those who suffered abuse, when actually I was referring to "Some who are in camp 2 did not suffer abuse, but still have bona fide reasoning for their opinion." It is their dwelling in bitterness that concerns me.

As you can probably tell, I am still in the healing process myself. I have pretty much come to terms with the sorrow I experienced at the "death" of the twi I knew and loved due to the evil pervading the leadership. What I struggle with daily is the war zone in my home. I continue to be thankful for the benefits I received from twi, and am confronted with bitterness because of my stance. In my visits to the GSC I have tried to glean information to help me understand the reasons for this bitterness. Some doors of communication have been opened due to my contemplation of the posts here. While mulling over your post tonight, I realized that what prompts me to respond to many posts are the emotions they stir up related to this daily struggle, rather than to the content of the post itself. And because I am reacting to my personal struggle, my comments are misdirected, and, therefore, easily misunderstood. Thank you for helping me to see this. I will try to avoid this in the future.

Ex 10,

You are so refreshing. When things start to heat to a boil, your observations always seem to be on target. Keep "butting in", you're doing a great job.

WordWolf,

I always enjoy reading your posts. Your presentations are well thought out and logical. I have learned a lot from you.

Your descriptions of the categoreis are much better than mine.

GSC is a great forum for healing and heated discussions are good.

My concern is for the few posters who strike with venom in many of their posts. I wonder if they have chosen to remain wounded because they cannot or will not face the pain inherent in the healing process. Instead of facing their pain, they spew it outwards onto others in hopes that it will dissipate their inner turmoil. If this is true, and they are stuck in this bitterness, can they ever heal? That is my concern for them, not their group/camp. There seem to be people in this stuck mode which fit into each of the categories you described above.

Steve Martin

Little Shop of Horrors

Rick Moranis

Most posters on these threads were at one time involved with twi. During our tenure there we had a variety of experiences, both good and bad. At some point, we felt the association was no longer of benefit to our lives and decided it was in our best interests to leave. For some the parting was sorrowful, but uneventful. Regrettably, for some it was tragic due to the abuse they suffered.

After leaving, most of us learned (of or more about) the unconscionable acts that were committed by vpw and other leadership. Our reactions to this knowledge, and especially that related to vpw, has impacted how we view our experience with twi. There seem to be at least two prevailing viewpoints.

Camp 1 - Those who are horrified and disgusted by the evil and do not forgive/excuse/ ignore/deny these acts. However, they feel the acts do not erase nor negate the benefits received from twi, and, therefore, do not dismiss the good because of the bad.

Camp 2 - Those who are so horrified and disgusted by the evil that they can no longer feel that any good can be associated with vpw or twi. Therefore, they dismiss the good along with the bad.

Although I adhere to the belief of camp 1, I can understand the reasoning for the belief of camp 2. If I had suffered the abuse some posters experienced, I may have found myself in camp 2, also. Some who are in camp 2 did not suffer abuse, but still have bona fide reasoning for their opinion. I don't think one is necessarily right, and the other wrong; both camps have valid viewpoints. This is the point where I think we posters can respectfully acknowledge that we agree to disagree instead of creating a war zone of camp 1 versus camp 2.

Many have come to a point where we can accept and validate the differences in our viewpoints, rather than belittling and battling one another. Some posters do not seem to have reached that point yet, as captured well by allan w.

Hey GS'ers, w/o the Allans, Oldies, JohnIams, Ex10's, White Doves, Sudosuda's, Johnny Lingos and yes, even the Mikes, you'd all end up bitter old prunes by midnight, so gives us a break WILL YA. !!

The bitterness I read (and hear between the lines) here from SOME of the camp 2ers is disconcerting. I have no problem with anyone expressing anger or other negative emotions. It’s the dwelling in bitterness that concerns me because it indicates that the person is still hurting and in turmoil. How did the anger become a deep-seated bitterness? Is it the more they read, the more bad they discover, the more deeply embittered they become? Do they feel that they allowed themselves to be hoodwinked and are immensely angry with themselves for this and cannot forgive themselves? Has their ego been irrepairably damaged? Do they feel that if they can no longer trust or have confidence in the Bible, God, other people, etc., well, by dam*, no one else can either? They seem to have become so angry, unhappy, and defensive that they take those negative passions out on others in order to deny or relieve themselves of their emotional pain. This pain seems to control the tone of their replies to those they disagree with and rushes out in venomous words which can be quite hurtful to others. When a camp1er tells of positive experiences they hold on to, they are rebuffed by 'personal experience in a cult is no guarantee for truth', and fail to see that they (the camp 2er)are elevating their own personal experience of the bad as truth, while denying those in camp 1 the same liberty.

GSC offers a very positive and therapeutic environment where people can come and explore/vent/etc. their confusion/anger/despair with twi. It's refreshing to see how many have come (or are coming to) grips with their anger, and I hope many others can reach that point also. Seems it would be profitable for each of us to confront our own demons instead of trying to pave a road to hell for someone else. Instead of living in a war zone, wouldn’t it be better to accept each other’s reality of their feelings about twi/vpw? IMHO, the acceptance of the other person’s reality is the only true pathway to peace. Agreeing to disagree is healthy and nondestructive.

Have really enjoyed reading this thread.

Johnny Lingo, I have especially enjoyed your posts as you seem to be able to state so succinctly many of my opinions/beliefs.

Happy Birthday. Enjoyed meeting you several years ago when our family was coming through your area. Think we met for breakfast at Shoney's or some place like that. Hubby always enjoys meeting up with his GSC buddies whenever and wherever he can. And I enjoy being along for the ride with him.

Hope your day is wonderful!

Suda

Well done, Paw and Chas. Enjoyed listening to your informative chat.

Would this be a proper response?

Julia Roberts

Pretty Woman

Richard Gere

Very good and informative. Now I'll have to find the first podcast and listen to it.

Bravo to Belle, you are a gutsy gal. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for you.

So it could be either one? Still a little confused, but I'll go with

Eugene Levy

Cheaper by the Dozen 2

Bonnie Hunt

Congratulations! Keep us posted on the nominations and "the Pulitzer goes to"'s. Just to be nominated makes you a winner!

When I was a youngster, we had Good Friday and "Easter Monday" off - like our spring break. My family always headed out Thursday after school to our cottage at the beach. What fun - swimming, sailing, tanning, playing. It was always a blast. On Easter Sunday we often visited the Presbyterian Church there on the intercoastal waterway. Sitting in the sanctuary you could see the water and it was so peaceful. Made up for the typical Presbyterian teachings of how we were all sinners and lowly worms, undeserving of God's goodness.

Guess only North Carolina celebrates "Easter Monday". When I moved to TN, no one had heard of it.

When I attended the seminar on explaining What Happened - after POP, etc. That's the first time I heard the teachings on Mark and Avoid. It was so off the Word, I exited. Knew then twi had turned from a wonderful fellowship to a cult, and wanted no part of it.

The 2 bedroom suite is actually a one bedroom suite adjoining to a one bedroom room. So if not as many people can come, we can drop the extra bedroom, and just keep the suite. If more come on board, we can add more rooms, maybe with double beds, to keep the cost down. And everyone just hang out in the suite.

I'll post more on the cost information tomorrow. Don't have it with me right now.

So would it be

Eugene Levy

Cheaper by the Dozen 2

Bonnie Hunt

or

Mean Suvari

American Beauty

Kevin Spacey

?

Never faked - always was and is inspired utterance. And I hear lots of differences in languages and messages. They are a blessing to me.

I'll give it a try - hope I read the rules correctly!

Cheaper by the Dozen 2

Bonnie Hunt

Return to Me

This afternoon I reserved a 2 bedroom suite at the Radisson - Center City. Can sleep 6 comfortably, and we can make room for more. As we get more input, I can change the room size if needed. As they only have a few, thought I'd better grab one while available.

2 bedrooms with king sized sleep number beds, pull out sofa, 2 baths, dining/living room, 3 tvs, microwave, refrigerator.

Got one on a higher floor the capitalize on the view.

What do you think?

Bowtwi and CoolWaters - you are planning to stay with us, aren't you? It will be so sweet being suite mates with you two. Don't disappoint us by trying to drive back home at night after partying with us. We wouldn't want to have to give dmiller your home addresses to pass on to his friend in blue and have him come arrest you for being a party pooper. Not a good example of a GGGW!

Radison Center City sounds great! Do they have any 2 bedroom suites in case lots more ladies are interested in joining us? I'll be glad to make the tentative reservations when y'all are ready. May not be able to make any changes if use Expedia, so we'll have to have definite committments to book through it. Sounds like it's going to be a blast.

CoolWaters, let me know what you need me to do.

The stew would be hard to bring on the plane, though I'm sure Sudo would make some. Also, think it's better camp food than city food. Let me know what y'all want me to do on this matter.

Looking forward to going wild (not totally bezerk, though) with all you ladies. If the lads are planning something, put Sudo in the loop, please.

See you in July!

Suda