Mr. Pipes

Highway, thanks for the heart. I've not been attacked nor hurt here. I'm out here for my wife, whom I cherish. I'm not going to add any more drama. Middle school was a LONG time ago and I don't have the energy nor interest for drama. There are GOOD folks who post frequently here. There are some of the other variety here, too. Dooj, you know how highly I think of you.

Tom, You are one of the members I ENJOY reading immensely. This is in About the Way beause it's where it started. :)

Highway, You make a point. However, I've stressed to my wife that standing in GreaseSpot is meaningless. There are some wondeful folks who make good points on this site. Also, there are wackos that post here. There is more middle school drama at this site than most middle schools could muster. I don't have any friends at this site, but do consider some members to be very logical and wise. Regardless, I don't need the approval of any or all members here. Apparently now, neither does my wife. For those of you living true, God bless you. For those of you playing games and living half-truths to outright lies, you are not fooling anyone that matters - just yourself and the cyber world.

T&O, first I appreciate the insight you've provided here. Your knowledge of the recent interworkings of TWI is revealing. You contribute infinitely more value here than me. I'm not defending every church, ministry or group who has a book, class, etc to sell. I am defending an organization's right to charge a realistic fee (or donation) to cover the cost of their books, tapes, etc. The TWI class format is absolutely wrong. I beleive the CFF format is quite reasonable, buy a class, do with it what you want because you own all the materials, not just granted access to them in a limited manner. No need to involve another soul if you don't want to or else involve all you want. I think they will even allow you to make copies of thes syllabus, no need for each person to purchase their own. The groups who give away their materials do so because they have the financial means to do so; i.e., a generous group of followers or "earned income" from other sources. I respect those groups for giving their materials away. But back to part of my post you omitted, there is no such thing as a free lunch (modified this time by "unless God provides it"). Books, tapes, programs aren't without cost. How are they to be paid for? Or do we not need books, tapes, etc.? (I know Blarney's and some others answer). This is interesting stuff. Maybe I'll agree wholeheartedly with y'all before it's over.

Guys and gals, It's true the love of money is the root of all evil. It cuts both ways, taking or charging when it's not necessary and WITHHOLDING it from whom its due. I forget the scripture, you can look it up, our Saviour was financially supported by some of the women who followed him. (YOu'll find a reference in the gospels). TWI should not charge for it's classes. They have (or had in October 2005) over $20 million in liquid investments. Organizations that are just starting out need $. None of us work for free. If an organization doesn't have the funds, it gotta get 'em to survive. (Example, the author of "The Dreamweaver", tried to operate a ministry gratis. It went under, not because he didn't pray, work hard, etc. But because they had no source of income). Americans are generous to a one-time cause. They're stingy in continual financial support to non-profit groups, whtether religious or service oriented. I speak first hand, when CFF charges for it's classes; then sends a syllabus and CDs for the class. The syllabus is practically a transcript and the class is yours to keep or give away. So the purchaser of the class could give it away (I suppose) to another person/family. That would let the "giver" literally give the class/Word away. Last I checked, ALL businesses charge for paper, CDs, shipping, etc. There is no such thing as a free lunch. When Jesus was ministering here, other humans financially supported him. Are you supporting anyone (not limited to TWI and its offshoots) who teaches the Word? If not, why the he!l are you complaining?

The Heels have had another memorable season. Roy Williams is a wonderful successor to Dean Smith. What a pis*ser for the season to end this way.... Wait 'till next year ;).....

Hey Blarney, I spoke harshly as an emotional response. (I have much good to say about CFF - but that's not a group I'm pushing on anyone). My apology for being hard on you. Hoping for peace here. My bad for not being more considerate of my words. Hope your day/life is grand.

Blarney, read the effin thread! Bagpipes provided the story (she was the friend Oneophile mentioned) and explanation. Looks like you're much quicker to judge without having the whole story than the person you accused (if she ever did so). Rev. Shroyer didn't label and did offer a solution. Whatcha got to say for that? My wife (Bagpipes) has dealt with more physical and mental health problems than 98% of the population. She was not labeled by Tonia or anyone else with CFF when she was ministered to and healed on a couple of occassions by CFF ministers. Get the facts before jumping to a TWI conclusion!

ILB and I have been married 22 years (9/15/84). We've experienced the highs and lows all couples do in their relationships. We met in TWI. We are VERY happily married since leaving TWI (she in 10/05 and me in 03/06). For the previous three to four years we stayed together because of our children and $ (or the lack thereof a divorce would have caused). No doubt had I not left TWI after she did (or had we stayed in), we would be separated if not offically divorced tdoay (through a psychologist we learned kids and $ adjust after a divorce). The organization puts itself ahead of marriage, children, other family, and any other person or thing in the guise of "doing the Word". I'm thankful for quite a few things I learned in TWI and I would never have met my wife without it. However, the organization (I'm not referring to the many good hearted followers who haven't seen the light yet) has been a blight on Christianity the last 10-15 years. (Some of you would say since its inception, that's a different thread). From my point of view, marriages that stay together in TWI are because of (1) genuine love and commitment between the spouses or (2) the kids, money, and such issues, or (3) to look good in the eyes of the followers and leaders of the group. I respect folks in the first group, understand the motivation of the second group, and pity or loathe the folks in the third group. Hats off to all you long term couples. Sympathy to you who are no longer married and are heart-broken. Cheers to the rest of you.

Pink Lady, You need to go where you are comfortable. Here are the positives on CFF, IMO: 1. They do not ask for your allegience. They encourage people to either find a church or home fellowship they are comfortable in and FUNCTION. They send their weekly teaching tapes/CDs for free. Most of the teachings are quite positive and motivating. You don't have to attend one of their fellowships to be on their mailing list. 2. When you buy one of their classes you get the CD and syllabus for the class. The syllabus is almost a transcript of the class. You listen, read if and when you want in YOUR home, car, etc. Use it as you want or give it away when you're done. You're not recruiting people to take a class. 3. They do not ask you for $. 4. I've seen healings first hand and been the beneficiary of a couple as a result of CFF teachings on beleiving, miracles, and gifts of healing. My beloved wife had an instanteous healing on more than one occassion when ministered to by a CFF clergy (even over the phone). Now, any church or home fellowship can have a wonderful or average or poor leader. If you're not comfortable with the folks in the CFF fellowship (church in the home), go to the church where you're happy or keep looking. Maybe you want to listen to some of their teachings on your own. Maybe you don't. Don't be afraid of CFF. Do be aware of ANY organization you commit your heart to, the Girl Scouts and PTA can be every bit as demanding or demeaning as a bad home fellowship. Bad vibes and experiences are a warning. Abusive leaders or lazy parents (in light of Girl Scouts and PTA) can be anywhere. Walk boldly. Trust God. Go where you want to go and believe He will put who and what you need in front of you. Good success in going where you want without FEAR.

My wife and I have had great help from CFF the past year. Tender treatment, good teaching, gifts of healing, etc. My belief in God's goodness and ever ready supply was re-established. I was never taught by CFF to go to "the household" to get my need met or take a class or any other TWI equivalent work to get deliverance. No allegience was requested. At their Family reunion in August, people were exhorted to find a LOCAL fellowship or CHURCH in which to function. No long distance "membership" program. In this Monday's newletter folks were encouraged to participate a local fellowship or church where they were blessed or to start their own fellowship/church if their current group or leaders was not satisfactory to them. :) So in my context, maybe the "spies" were sent, maybe someone just took it upon themselves to spy in the name of CFF, maybe the "spies" were invited. Maybe it never happened. If it did happen a logical point my wife raised was when someone represents a business or church as an affiliate, the "name" group wants to know if their affiliate is representing them as they want to be represented. That said, going into a meeting with the motive of "being a spy" for someone else is wrong. My and our experiences with CFF are recent and VERY helpful. No group is perfect nor does one have the whole truth, but some are much closer to the truth than others. I think CFF falls into that category. And FYI our local fellowship is not affiliated with CFF, but several people listen to their tapes, classes, etc. We do not solicit money for CFF. I/we are not recruiting for CFF, but I am standing up to say any comparsion between them and TWI is like comparing citizenship in the US to Russia or China

Hey Eagle, You'd be one of the supporters ("heppers" as the true southerners often say) I mentioned. Thanks for "heppin' out". Heard you'd recently moved into the state - welcome to it. The Mrs. is equally as happy to have met you. "Take care now, ya hear". (Gotta git ya properly indoctrinated to the dialect)

Tom, I think in about 1983, right after becoming Prez, LCM had consecutive articles; "The Tithe Doth Still Provide" and "The Spiritual Abundance of Abundant Sharing" that set up 10% or nothing as the standard. Of course the second article pushed the above 10% agenda. Those two articles are appendinces to the latest foundational class. There's no true bbiblical research in the articles, just LCM's private interpretation. BTW, if I remember correctly, Dr. W taught tithing was based on pre-tax income - some time in the mid 90's LCM changed the standard to after tax income. When our then 16 year old daughter applied for the Advanced Class in 2004, the application asked the question about tithing to TWI. I don't know if the answer to that question is ever verified by fellowship coordinators or HQ staff. I do remember a long ago burning doctrinal question was whether class fees were to be included as part of one's tithing/abundant sharing or if the fees were in addition to the tithe/ABS. Seems as if the answer locally was thithe and God will provide the funds for the class fee. History as I remeber it, Tom. Good question.

My beloved Bagpipes grieves for both of us. I had no WC experience - just coordinated fellowships, classes, and showed up to help out at many a meeting and class.. I've regained our marriage, a lot of time and money, and lost the sense of embarassment of being part of TWI. I have also lost a good bit of stress. A very good ex-TWI minister who has helped Bagpipes and me make the transition told us repeatedly, "The later rain will be greater than the former rain". That is coming true. :) Thanks to all of you who have supported us. Life is immensely better outside the confines of TWI. We have made HUGE gains in our lives the last three months. Obviously the WC experience takes a real hold on one's emotions. Must be quite the program. :unsure: Thanks again for the insight and support to my beloved and me.

Groucho, I'd like to mix your alternatives: Misguided biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry formed as a BG Leonard offshoot resulting in a dysfunctional denomination of chair stringers. I supported TWI for over 20 years with time and cash. I did receive some worthwhile teaching. I also wasted much effort that properly belonged primarily to my wife and then our children. Any group that inserts its teachings as THE WAY to God instead of Jesus Christ is practicing idolatry. Hence maybe rather than being involved in a cult, I got tricked into idolatry. Substituting chair stringing and class promoting in place of real worship. Replacing wide lens truth with tunnel vision that could only see narrowly. Seeing the tree, but missing the forest. Looking for evil instead of good. Expecting God to treat me better than folks outside the TWI bucket, because of what it made me. Not accepting God loves equally - because TWI had The Answer Man who could get us more favorable treatment than a "simple" Christian due to our advanced spiritual understanding. What a misguided (and immature) man I was. Today, I readily admit to being duped. I can admit I was duped by a cult leader. I can admit being a follower of a cult leader. I'm not ready to admit I was part of a cult - pride is perhaps the greatest reason. But one day I can tell my grandchildren, "When i was a young man I was duped into joining a cult."

Oh Honey, I'm there! I enjoy watching you dance and dancing with ya. This poem is both heartfelt and fantastic! Keep on dancin' in the meadow.

At least to me, LCM was a dynamic speaker and teacher. But, I'm told so was Adolph Hitler. Craig's reign lasted a little longer than Hitler's and he didn't destroy as many people with his devilish doctrines as Hitler did. Alas, he left with a whimper, just like Hitler. Germany had to be rebuilt from without after WWII. TWI will have to be rebuilt from without (and "without") if it is to exist for the glory of God and His Word as it once proudly proclaimed. The "without" includes all the bondage doctrines and practices that are in place, "the past abuses are behind us" blinders and excuses, and the ego that says there no where else to get "the rightly divided Word". This is not an exhaustive listing. Nazi doctrine is rejected by all but the most extreme. LCM/TWI is rejected by all but the most decieved and those who benefit directly from its promotion. Good thread lilbit. My healing is well on the way after two months. Too much to live for now to waste time being bitter. (Now, I was never abused except for the doctrines I swallowed hook, line, and sinker). As food for thought, I wonder if God's foregiveness only covers our sins against Him while our sins against others must be addressed by us to those we've wronged in order to have them foregiven prior to the Bema or judgements - where as LCM taught every wrong will be made right to our full satisfaction. If so, he'd better get busy apologizing or he's going to spend a LONG time in the "principal's office" later.

Sarah, I'm "busting my buttons - proud of you". You've certainly lit up my life. You are a treasure to me. Bagpipes. we done good with her. (At least by my standards). Iffin the rest of you folks only knew - you'd wonder how such a smart and beautiful young lady came from us. (I'm sure NONE of you other proud parents EVER said that about your children). Love you bunches, Dad

Thank you GSC'ers for your welcome and kind words. You have been a real help to my wife, the lovely I Love Bagpipes, and me. The Mrs. has patiently retyped the letter I sent to Rev. Rivenbark. Understand I was still attending TWI fellowships when this was written (at work without any reference info available). I was scheduled to teach a SMF the Sunday after this letter was dated. As surprised as you may be (and I was), I still taught; even though copies were sent to the HFC, BC, and LC/RC as well. No one forbade me the chance to teach. The LC/RC met with me on the 19th to discuss points in this letter after he talked with HQ. Subsequent to that meeting, he has offered on two separate occasions to have a follow up visit to "work the word" together on these points. All communciation has been verbal and I have not been made Mark & Avoid, though I expected it. Hence it is a kinder and gentler TWI. Following the letter are some of the responses from the LC/RC. However, the bottom line appears to be there will not be any doctrinal changes at TWI without a huge amount of research by a lot of people. Begin letter: March 13, 2006 Dear Rev. Rivenbark, God bless you abundantly in the name of Jesus Christ. I remember part of the prophecy from your installation as Vice-President was "..to heal the stripes of the adversary...". You have taken positive steps since becoming President to begin the healing process, including: (1) stopping the abuse of the "mark and avoid" practice, (2) redirecting the STS teachings to be positive and absent from verbal attacks on any who don't buy into the teaching 100%, and (3) beginning the recognition certificates for faithfulness to the Way International (TWI for short) for both HFC's and believers. The atmosphere within TWI has changed from "you're either with me or against me; there is no middle ground" to a much more tender and welcoming "good to see you and how are you?" However there are some major issues left over from Rev. Martindale's administration that need to be corrected. The practices (or doctrines) below are at least some of the most significant obstacles to growth and outreach within TWI. I. Money. The love of it is the root of all evil. However, the management of an individual's money is only between him, God, his/her family, and whomever payments for goods or services are due. The "no debt doctrine" absolutely cannot be documented from the rightly divided Word, and the proof of the error is in the financial hurt caused to most who adhere to it. In the 10 plus years since it became the standard for the Corps, HFC's, and AC students, those who sold homes and began renting have lost both the equity increase from mortgage reductions and property value appreciation. Some folks have suffered losses in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is not a senses-based argument, but a factual-based observation of the impact of practicing wrong doctrine. It is pouring water into a "broken cistern that can hold no water." It is absolutely the individual's responsibility to mange their affairs and not become caught up in the "keeping up with the Jones'" or obtaining more things tha they need and can steward. Continuing this no debt standard will lead to more people deciding the cost of compliance is greater than the benefit associated with it. The second point in this topic is tithing and abundant sharing. The tithe was a Law Adminstration law. In the Patriarchal Administration sacrifices were offered, but the only tithe record is of the singular event of Abraham AFTER the king of Salem (or mayor in our day) gave food and drink to him and his men. The tithe was to support the tribe of Levi. There are no records of tithing in Acts. Absolutely, we are instructed to give to the movement of the Word and support ministers who are worthy of double honor. Those examples are recorded in Acts and the Epistles. In the Old Testament, Levi would have made up about 1/12 of the population; therefore a 10th from the remaining 11 tribes would have provided the priests with equal financial status as their brethren and provided enough for the sacrifices as well. Tithing is an involved topic, but to teach it is a necessary part of operating the revelation and impartation manifestations is to deny the accomplishments of Jesus Christ and to replace them with the works of the flesh to please God. Tithing is a work of the flesh, while revelation and impartation manifestations are spiritual. God does instruct us to give as we purpose in our hearts to move the Word, but He does not require the tithe to bless us, protect us, or give us access to revelation and operation of the impartation manifestations. II. Management. In the expansion days of TWI, the household fellowships were to be self-supporting, self-propagating, and self-governing. The self-governing has been replaced by management from Ways Corps following Board of Directors' plans. Local fellowships must submit a calendar to their branch coordinator for approval. (I have no idea what happens once the branch coordinators receive them.) The teaching topics are managed by the overemphasis on the STS and Way Magazine articles. Didn't the teachers do a good enough job the first time? Are the HFC's (who are debt free AC grads) incapable of planning a simple fellowship calendar and knowing what their people need to hear? This calendar and topic managment is absolutely no different than the Southern Baptist Sunday Schools using "quarterlies" to teach their followers. It is an insult to the capabilities of any HFC. If they cannot plan and don't know what needs to be taught, they aren't spiritual enough to oversee a fellowship. III. Ministering. Since the last Rock of Ages there has not been a summer event open to anyone and everyone to come see the big-picture perspective of TWI. Since the last Word in Business there has not been a national or international conference for anyone other than AC students and grads. Since before the last Rock of Ages no one from the Board of Directors has taught an open fellowship on the field (other than Gunnison) - at least to the best of my knowledge. This isolation of leadership at HQ is: (1) contrary to the pattern established in Acts by Peter and Paul and the other apostles and noted in The New Dynamic Church, and (2) sets up the region visits to HQ as a pilgrimage; something not noted nor established in Acts or Epistles. "Come and see" is not a command for us, but "Go, tell" is a command for us. You and others should travel to teach. Otherwise coupled with the larger issues, TWI will become pockets of followers isolated from their leaders and incapable of sustaining outreach or having any greater impact or meaning than has already been achieved. My HFC is _________. _______ are the branch coordinators and _________the limb and region coordinators. These people are bright, motivated, love God, and are committed to TWI. I love and respect each of them. They need your help by breaking the bonds that thwart their outreach efforts. They plan events and witness to folks and get some to attend fellowships for a while, but none seem to stick. The question is why. The answer is not them; they are kind and loving. But the answer is what they have to offer is limited. The issues mentioned above are a few of the limitations place on them and other field leadership within TWI. Other ministries are growing, but TWI is shrinking (or if its "membership" is staying about level, it is due to children of Way believers coming of "class" age and not because others are being "won to the ministry"). Other ministries offer Biblical research and classes comparable (do I dare say better than?) TWI and do not put bonds onto their followers and leaders. Perhaps unbeknownst to you, few followers of TWI are blessed with it. Most tolerate it thinking "there is nothing else better available," all the while hoping things within TWI will change. I do not know how many, if any, such letters have been sent to you. My goal is to offer an outsider's perspective to dramatically improve the funcitoning of TWI "on the field." Whether you decide to act on this letter is your business. My conscious is now clear. My sufficiency is of God, (not through or by TWI), and I eagerly anticipate His blessings for taking a stand against religion that has crept into and paralyzed the ministry that taught me the Word and how to live it. You are in a unique position to affect change immediately. Due to your position your only boss is God, but your responsibility is to all of TWI. The masses are looking to you for further healing and freedom from the stripes and bondage of the devil brought into TWI by the ego of Craig Martindale. You are the only one today who can bring it to TWI by changing standards that are contrary to the Word. You have honorably served TWI corporately. Please serve it as honorably spiritually by throwing out the damnable doctrines that have crept in. Love in Christ, End letter Verbal responses/feedback: 1. The BoD stands by its "no debt" doctrine 2. Coordinators have great latitude in planning and teaching. (Well, maybe; I have not been an HFC for three years. Sure seems to be a locked-in situation, though). 3. As for giving $ to manifest spiritual power, LC/RC said he's never taught $10 of ABS = $10 of revelation. (From him that is true, but the new foundational class syllabus includes LCM's articles on "The Tithe Doth Still Supply" and "The Spiritual Abundance of Abundant Sharing". So TWI standard doctrine hasn't changed though the LC/RC doesn't seem to agree with it). 4. The last RoA was physically dangerous as gang members and other "threats" were admitted to HQ grounds without any screeening or supervision. 5. TWI is expanding. Its growth is not dynamic because of splinter groups who attract folks who once would have come to TWI. I do want to emphasize my treatment from TWI since this letter has been cordial. However, there has been no communication from anyone other than the LC/RC since March 19th. I have not attended a meeting since then. Never a word directly from Rev. R. You guys and gals are smart folks. You can draw your own conclusions. BTW I do not plan to post often, mainly due to time constraints. But I do enjoy browsing the wit and insight many of you share.

Hi Goey, thanks for the inquiry re: the rank and file. The tempature of believing is likewarm overall. I don't see a mass revolt. Instead it is a steady trickle of folks leaving. In the larger area I was part of it appeared more folks were leaving than being added. (I'm told there are areas were TWI fellowships are growing. There are still some well intended and talented people there to achieve whatever success they have.) I imagine in a couple more years, the overall tempature of the organization will lower as the remaining folks get older and with less abundance than their "unbeliever" friends and family. But they may never figure out the problem was TWI taught doctrines of men leading them to ruin. Most folks I've talked to privately are hanging on because they are afraid to leave. Their reasons are numerous, but they stay regardless of how discontent they are. They feel powerless to effect change. Frankly. the BOD are simply names for the rank and file to hold in regard. If every director was replaced, the rank and file wouldn't know the difference, unless the doctrine and practice were corrected, otherwise just the names and pictures of the leaders they pray for would be different. The only leverage the rank and file have is their $$$ and time to support classes and functions. To you who want to read my letter, I will be happy to share it in another couple of weeks. There are some loose ends to tie up first. I was treated respectfully in TWI's response. However, the response has been verbal and at a local level. Nothing directly from the BOD.

Happy Birthday, Bagpipes! This is certainly one of your best birthdays. May they only get better from here. You light up my life as only God and you know. You are a treasure! Here's a toast to you for all the good you do and the joy you bring. May it be multiplied back to you now and for eternity Soak it up!!!

Paw, thanks for your work. In the eyes of the BOD, non-corps aren't leaders (my opinion). If you have not "drunk the kool aid" of Way Corps training, you have very limited credibility. How many times have non-corps taught at HQ? Based on secular success, I'd say more non-corps are leaders than active way corps.

Within the past two months I sent a letter to the TWI President regarding a couple of issues that are obviously wrong doctrinally and/or practically. The letter was strongly worded without directly attacking her, instead naming LCM as the culprit. (Not nearly strong enough for you GSCers, but plenty strong as an innie, as I was at the time) To the point of this topic, the responsibility to respond was passed back down to the LC. It is still up to the Way Corps "on the field" to defend TWI's doctrine rather than seek the truth. Hence the BOD is locked into their old doctrine and no pressure from "the field" will change them. TWI has plenty of $$$, so dwindling numbers doesn't threaten it financially. As long as their cash flow (from both investments and donations) supports them, no "external" factors will cause change. Guys and gals, this is my 1st post. I only stopped attending TWI meeting six weeks ago. As recently as the last fellowship meeting I attended, there was nothing to indicate unrest with the Way Corps or the fellowship coordinators. Just keeping their heads down following the doctrine laid out by the BOD. My simple minded conclusion, people are rescued from TWI. Without change in the BOD's belief system TWI cannot be changed or rescued. Personally, I'm very happy to be out.