richnchrispy

They call us copouts. Wow! Not sure what to say to that. If it makes them feel "better" about staying - well I guess it has some benefit.

Sorta like staying in prison when the warden has unlocked the door and told you that you can leave.

I told my wife in 1986 that her nice notes to Craig would go unheeded - and guess who was right?

TWI is a pimple on the foot of the body of Christ, no more, no less. Squeeze it every coupla years and more puss will come out. But it never completely heals.

What did I miss? How does this follow the current flow of this thread?

One of the secret leadership principles was that certain leaders could have sex with multiple people beyond just their spouse and it was OK, in fact even healing, and it was not adultery. Hence the Schoenheit paper and the commotion it caused. The bus driver was at the center of the eye of the storm. PP is supposedly a franchisee of the busdriver.

And leopards do not change their spots. They just hide in the foliage.

Richard

krys

I do not feel like you derailed this thread at all. There are a lot of viewpoints to air out here and a lot to share, and then clarify since the net is so messy for clear communication.

Richard

Gee John R maybe you can help us all out - we can start an investment club like that billionaire from Omaha, and buy beachfront property together - and then make money together - instead of donating money to a MOG!!!

Richard

Personal Prophecy to Mark G. from God

Thus Seth the Lord

"...you shoulda stayed in South Florida growing your your window washing business and buying Florida real estate instead of leaving 15 years ago to do the CES/Stiffy thing. Today you'd be as rich as God me! I hollerd and I hollered and I hollered but you didn't hear me."

"OMGl, even I'm even considering getting a condo there and doing the beach thing for a while. (I deserve a freaking break from all this insanity)."

"After you get fired, I recommend you contact your old friend John down there and he might be able to hook you up. I would give you his contact info but I don't hear from him too much lately. Tell him he's gonna be sorry if he don't give me some quality time. "

Good luck! "

God

Hey, William!

Thank you for the quotes!

Jefferson is very cool. He was way ahead of his time.

Chrispy

krys

I would just want to counter that my own feeling is that I cor 13 as written in its soft squishy form is good enough for 99.8% of all relationships - and the kind of firmness you speak of I find to be necessary no more than 0.2% of the time - and that usually only applies to self-appointed prophets, telemarketers, substance abusers, thieves, and complete jerks. Spouses, children and good friends usually do not need nor deserve the dark side of this philosophy.

Richard

Number 10 had two correct answers. You probably chose their mistake. :)

Chrispy

I got 98% and I'm pretty sure the only one I missed must have been the dangling modifier question. I think I remember dangling them a lot in school - that and getting into trouble for run on sentences.

Gooder Grammar

Well Mr. Geer has definitely gone with a low key advertising strategy. Not much comes up when you google him. And Juedes says he maintains no website. So he must be working to net primarily ex-twi fish and then whatever they can bring in. But he then sells franchises to his local guys and/or collects ongoing franchise fees for running the class. I mentioned this to an old friend who piped up she knew Pat P0w3ll and he was an @$$h013. Oh one of the local franchise owners eh?

Amway meets religion.

Hey even former pimps and/or current pimps have to eat.

She was of the opinion that the leadership of this wonderful organization was probably still faithful to the Corps principles. Even the secret ones.

ThereButForGrace,

This is Chrispy!

I had a similar experience. I know God led me to TWI. But now I know I wasn't meant to stay as long as I did.

I was 15 and was with a friend driving around sharing idle conversation. I said, I wonder what B++ S+++++++ is doing. Then as I turned my head to look out the window, there he was standing on the tree lawn in front of a McDonald's. Now, I was not in my town and had not seen this person for almost a year. And I was not a bible thumper yet. But I knew in my heart this was significant. We pulled into the parking lot and had a very interesting conversation. I took PFAL 4 days later. This was pre-Way Corps and a much different environment.

God has an amazing way of doing what He can with what He has.

JL- I was involved for 18 yrs, never knew and maybe heard his name 5 x in years of old,until I arrived at GS..

Maybe he can fix The Way..should he be the next to rise and go lead again..

Gosh what a monumental sick thought. The bus driver fixing the Way. What is he going to do first - refurbish the pimpmobile?

Pinklady, I am praying for you as well. Saw similar physical abuse in the late '70's in twi and ashamed to say I did nothing about it when my area coordinator told me that another couple was none of my or his business. I should have gone to the cops myself at least.

I've known Geer since 1973. Leopards never change their spots. Same old same old. When they made him the bus driver I thought "at last something down to Chris' true abilities", not knowing yet that it was really one of the most powerful positions in twi.

All I can say to his followers is if you like Amway and you like CES you are going to just totally enjoy your time with the bus driver.

And Satan said to his Leader: Leader, lovest thou money? Yeah Lord thou knowest I do! Then shear my sheep.

CES now uses a term called the servant-leader that appears in their literature. This is part of their paradigm of believing in a strong leader/weak follower model - in my opinion. The problem I have with this is that a word study of the new testament for the word lead and its derivatives leaves one with the distinct impression that Jesus believed leaders were blind and did no more than to lead the blind. Lots of bumping into hard objects, each other and getting bruised.

Servant leader to me is kinda like a half fish half fowl imaginary animal. I do not see it existing in nature.

Either the servant serves or the leader leads. The servant is not concerned about politics and position. That seems to be what the Way Corps and leadership in twi and CES is really about. Protecting one's own self interests.

I thought you might be interested in seeing some guidlines used in Millionth Circle Women's spirituality groups(sacred feminine/goddess/peace/environmental...)

Create a circle.

Consider it a sacred space.

One person speaks at a time.

Speak and listen from the heart.

Encourage and welcome diverse points of view.

Listen with discernment instead of judgment.

Share leadershipand resources.

Decide together how decisions will be made.

Work toward consensus when possible.

Offer experience instead of advice.

When in doubt or need, pause and silently ask for guidance.

Decide together what is to be held in confidence.

Speak from your own experience and beliefs rather than speaking for others.

Open and close the circle by hearing each voice. (Check-ins and check-outs.)

Tis is Richard

Bramble thanks for your post. It is another one with much good about it - it shows how adults should respect and treat one another while meeting. It stirred up in me some insights about a few of the things that have gone wrong with organizations in the past including CES.

Strong leader/weak follower orgs do not share leadership beyond a very very small circle. The leaders become responsible not only for admin type tasks like Pawtucket does here but the content as well - which charges the atmosphere and makes sharing difficult and leads to the doctrine cops policing discussions, sometimes even when the cops are wrong. Leaders begin to lead rather than to serve as a servant. Sometimes the wrong person is put into the wrong position which leads to incompetent leading, poor work, as criticism mounts the leader becomes more and more defensive and may begin to twist the facts and even out & out lie. Spiritual nepotism may occur - thank you Abigail - after our dialogue I now understand. Political machinations occur on a regular basis as people vie for power. Leaders get their hands on the mike and then do not want to share it as they must control the message and protect the flock.

Bramble, your principles above develop a group that can avoid many or all of these pitfalls or deal with them effectively if they do appear.

1broken1 just a small joke here: and Satan said to his Leader: lovest thou money Leader? yeah Lord thou knowest I do. Then shear my sheep.

*********************************

Oh boy am I learning about this stuff right now!

First and foremost, in any group of people who come together more than once for any reason, personal boundaries need to be clearly defined and highly respected.

The first personal boundary to disappear in a group setting is self value.

Little hints show up indicating this decaying boundary...

You worry that your attire isn't quite up to snuff...

You worry that your personal situations are less than others...

You laugh at 'jokes' you find distasteful...

You agree to participate in things you don't enjoy because 'everybody enjoys it!'...

You begin asking others in the group for 'advice' because you feel they have a better handle on life...

And so many more little signs that self value is eroding.

But by the time these little signs add up in one's mind, there's a crisis.

So, imo, the very very very first thing a group must have is respect of the individual.

Now if a group is coming together for the discussion of doctrines, beliefs, etc., like in a fellowship, IF that group begins with clearly established doctrines, beliefs, etc., then that group automatically does not respect the individual.

Which is why all roads tend to lead to Mecca, so to speak, in this instance.

Cool this is Richard

I went back to your post and have been considering it - it stirred a lot up in me.

That respect is paramount in importance. We have a duty to love one another, but that certainly has to be in the context of respecting boundaries and not giving unsolicited or sometimes even solicited advice. Yet there is a process within friendship that I would see as affirmation and encouragement in being there to help a friend over rough spots and help get them back on track and believing in their own good qualities. And that is important - a very delicate process where you help them bring out their best and their own vision, not your agenda for them. You help them share the gifts they already have.

I think Dot's post is extremely empathetic, but if the topic is, "Best Wishes to Elizabeth Lynn, loving thoughts to ease your trouble," I think its content will achieve the opposite. An inventory of miseries does not make for best wishes or loving thoughts, and it will only reprise, not ease, her "trouble."

Based only on the content of her letter, I doubt Elizabeth would find much of use to herself at Greasespot - just a hunch - but if she should stop by, she shouldn't be led to believe her only contribution is her testimony as victim. Greasespot is not (usually) a "pity party," but she might not know that from reading just a few posts.

Maybe she would want to get past her own story and on to... I dunno... helping others still trapped in the Graesers' CES/STFI psychodrama. I'm guessing she's a woman with extraordinary gifts, and would not waste precious time re-living an unfortunate chapter of her past when so many others need healing from their own.

This is not criticism of Dot, but a suggestion to one and all - if you find Elizabeth's story similar in any respect to a crucifiction and resurrection, focus on the resurrection, and not just for her benefit, but for yours. The inner strength she has found within herself can point the way to your own.

satori

This is Richard.

Grieving is a personal process, of which this board knows pretty much nothing of how E has lived thru that after her divorce. And whether or not she is done is very personal as well. My own thoughts on life tragedies is that sometimes the grieving is never really over, a person may get to the place where they become functional again and yet still need to re-grieve and perhaps need support of God and friends from time to time, even decades later, perhaps at times like this when it is all brought up again.

Also possibly deciding to wade back in with CES and ex CES people is 100% a personal decision. May or may not be the right decision now, it might be right later, she may choose to never engage CES followers again. Some people can do it, some cannot or do not wish to do it.

Elizabeth

God's blessings on you as you continue to heal, and I hope these postings are a balm to your heart. I look forward to years of your good friendship with Chrispy and me. We all hope that this is the end of the insanity in the organization that hurt you so deeply.

May this process on this board lead to a renewal of many hearts in actually living the true principles of God's heart. May loving God and our neighbors be paramount in our actions every day. I think this begins with respecting one another as equals - no-one is "special" or higher than another and able to speak like the Wizard of Oz from behind the curtain but loudly projected on the screen. We are all just broken humans who need to be loved and desperately need to love others. As the song says Deep inside this armor the warrior is a child.

Richard

Richard

Happy New Year GSCers!

Here is a greeting card from Richard and I

http://www.bluemountain.com/view.pd?i=1581...p;source=bma999

Lots of folks have said kind things to Elizabeth throughout the threads so I thought we could wish her the best here all in one place.

Elizabeth, your letter is full of your heart and love. You are a strong, intellegent, loving woman. I am glad to know you. God bless you.

Love,

Chrispy

:lol: :lol: :lol: ROTFLMAO!!!!

This is Chrispy, but I know Rich would agree!

Thankfully I'm not important enough to have had spiders coming out of my nose - probably just something i can get off with a tissue.

I think this is a gem! Thanks, 1b1!

JPT also PM'd me. I don't like how she said what she said. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt as to their intentions. After reading her posts I have decided to ignore her totally. If no one responds to her posts, she will go away. I hope everyone else will do the same so we can correspond on the topic. There are plenty of other threads on Grease Spot she can rant on.

At this point, I think she has deliberately posted here to disrupt the dialogue.

Chrispy

This is Chrispy!

Passing Through-

You finally have made it clear that you are not defending JAL. But your post is still unclear.

I have a question, who around here is feeding on drama that a trouble making out of fellowship crybaby can gain entrance here?

Is the crybaby JAL, or someone else?

First of all, The Word of God states very clearly how to determine if one is in the center of God's Will.

If it were really this clear, we would not have so many religious denominations.

I could care less who did what to who.

Shame on you. Why enter into this discussion if you do not care? Did you read Elizabeth Lynn's letter?

You are all off the mark, and all of you should be ashamed that I have to write this, but God says we are to speak a Word fitly spoken so here it is: Thus saith the Lord: ... (1Cr 13:1-13 DBY)

We all know this passage. Who are you to judge that we are not doing this in love? You cannot use you plural if you do not know us. With only 6 posts on this forum, me thinks you protesteth too much.

Use the Word of God as the standard for Truth and go through those vomitorium, gangrenous, venomous letters from Rev Lynn, and sir, you should be ashamed of yourself, you know better.

There is only one letter from John Lynn. Are you talking about the other documents. I assume "sir" is JAL. As I said before, you must be post clearly what you are saying, if you want to be understood.

It is far more needful to be loving than to be right. And this did not concern most of these folks so all you did was stir up the pot some more. Take some advice from me: Shut up. And to all those who read this, please remember the Word you were taught and walk in love, walk in light and walk wise.

Take your own advice. It is far more needful to be loving than to be right. Who exactly are you telling to shut up?

...Two happy people don't divorce based on the ludicrous visions of some SELF-APPOINTED (there, I said it) prophetess unless one or both are highly mentally unstable....

...Oh, by the way, YES, I am saying that if JAL was otherwise happy but allowed the SELF-APPOINTED prophetess' words to corrupt his marriage, he is highly mentally unstable.

Hi, Raf! This is Chrispy. Please take no offence, I just disagree on this...

I don't know how long you've been married. I have been married 33 years to Richard. Marriage is a commitment. I made a vow and I intend to keep it. Happiness is fleeting. The Lynn marriage may not be the point. But it was the proof to me that something is rotten in the CES/STF leadership.

Divorce is a legal process that one person initiates. John initiated it.

He divorced her because she would not concede that the prophecies and everything else she was being hammered with were true. When I confronted John Lynn about divorcing Elizabeth, he told me that John Shoenheit told him it was acceptible because she had hardened her heart. I choose at this time to believe that JAL was also twisting Schoenheit's words, but this may not be the case.

The verse being twisted was Mark 10:5:

Mar 10:1ff ¶ And he arose from thence, and cometh into the coasts of Judaea by the farther side of Jordan: and the people resort unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again.

And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his]wife? tempting him.

And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.

And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

This passage is clear that it is not condoning divorce and that it is an indictment of the divorcing man's hardness of heart, not the wife's.

Elizabeth's experience was a nightmare and something that borders on criminal assault, slander in the least. John sought the divorce because she would not agree to the prophesies. She hardened her position, as she should. I hope that I would have the same strength of character in a similar situation.

I don't think JAL is highly unstable, he is bewitched like the galatians:

Gal 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

The Galatians were not unstable, they were bewitched. Being unstable would give him an excuse for allowing the prophesies to sway him. The prophesies worked because he had faith in the lies of a "friend."

Mark

Thanks - all very good points to ponder.

I am going to assume from a comment you made that you are or are familiar with the Roman Catholic faith. I read a book called habits of the heart (sociology) about 10 years back. It pointed out that there was a statistically significant difference in the suicide rate between US Protestants & Catholics, with the Prods having the higher rate. The subjective discussion pointed to the stronger sense of community and less emphasis on individual productivity in the RC community. That darned Protestant work ethic led to more alienation, more emphasis on completing tasks and less on family & community intimacy.

Any viewpoint you would care to share about this?

Richard

Thanks Abi - you woke me up this morning. Dove, thanks I will consider what you have shared.

Hey it hit me - Greasespot can a be a model for some attributes for those here who desire some form of Christian fellowship/ church/large/ small, at home, in a church.

This will pull from some things shared already by others here -

Paw is the leader - but he is just an administrative leader, keeping the Cafe up and running, cleaning up a few spills of software coffee, encouraging a few noisy parishioners to be civil once in a while, but not trying to run anyone's life.

People come and go freely.

People learn hopefully to tolerate and respect each others opinions.

People get to hear new and various opinions, learnings.

People can ask for and give prayer.

people can communicate in group, privately or go off the cafe and talk elsewhere.

People can share their gifts and learn to spread their wings and fly a little bit, and practice as often as they wish.

Friendship as shallow or as deep as people care to go.

Anyone else see any other positives about GS?

OK someone type in tongues and interpret.....

I would really like this thread to focus more on the positive attributes of healthy fellowships, churches, temples, AA groups, baseball teams, marriages, etc. and not just become another area to slam our past experiences with twi/ces, our parents, our 3rd grade teacher, etc. It seems to me there are enough other threads where one can slam if one wishes.

My intent is to look to the future and not focus on the past.

This is Richard

WOW! No, right out of the gate YOU are back in TWI. I can call it group worship, I can it church, I can call it a barnyard with a dog barking. I have been other places where the word fellowship was used in the USA. It can be 6 people, it can be 6000 people, it can be a TV ministry. I never called it fellowship via twi/ces. You did. I am looking for positive attributes of ANY RELIGIOUS GROUP that is not dysfunctional, not another rant against twi/ces.

I never used the word Research - which is a word used primarily by twi and waybrain people which I have never heard used in other mainline churches - so where are YOU coming from? Just a question, not a slam.

You seem to be reading an awful lot of your bad experience into my list. So I just want to be clear, it is your assumptions, not my declaration.

What is up lady??? I put up a list of healthy attributes of any group fellowship and you wanna go back to twi. Been every where including a card carrying Methodist and a nothing at all whatsover for a long time. Had a real bad experience with some Assembly of God people locally who made twi look like professionals. But I have endeavored to be a friend throughout all of this.

Sorry to come on so strong but you seem to be reading an awful lot into a list. And a lot of it seems to have pushed your buttons, not mine. You also seem to be saying don't try to have a relationship like a marriage or a friendship because eventually a will happen, then b, then c then d and then it will all go wrong and you will leave me and hate me and I will feel bad. Uhhhh??? Wassup?

To semi-quote the movie AS GOOD AS IT GETS - somewhere there is a family with the bean salad and the picnic at the beach where everyone gets along. Even Melvin Udall eventually becomes a human being with intimate relationships. Sooooo what can THAT possibly look like rather than ranting one more time about twi and VP?

Soooooo maybe fellowship/group worship/church/temple/friendship will have some intimacy with boundaries as clearly defined by each individual, with no group violation of people's autonomy? Probably didn't say it quite like Cloud and Townsend but you know the memory ain't what it used to be.

So are you now going to stop using the word Research??? I do not consider twi to actually have the copyright on words.

Hey you two. I'm going to start by saying I get your heart and intent here. I think your intent is great, but the premise has a problem. A healthy fellowship sounds like a beautiful thing, no? Unfortunately, from where I sit, it is simply travelling a path that will once again lead us to that very same spot we were in TWI, or CES.

What is a fellowship? See, right out of the gate we are back in TWI, using their terminology. One of the problems with a fellowship ala TWI, CES, whatever, is that it promotes an emotional dependence. Even the self-governing ones, the ones lacking in a MOG (Man of God), or charismatic leader, will lead to this. In fact, I suspect it is the intimate relationships so many of us had with each other that make a fellowship such an appealing thing.

There is nothing wrong with intimate relationships. There isn't even anything wrong with a small degree of emotional dependency (we all become emotionally dependant, to at least some degree, on the ones we entrust our hearts and intimate thoughts to).

However, when that intimacy is mixed with what is supposed to be objective research, eventually all objectivity will go out the window. In a sense, fellowship via TWI/CES is a microcosm of the problem I see with the set up for the BOD for those very same organizations. Human nature being what it is, we will eventually tend to stop questioning in an objective fashion and stop utlizing critical thinking skills, because we don't want to offend our friend. Or, becaue we can't imagine our friend leading us astray.

Eventually, someone new will come along, who hasn't yet developed that strong and intimate relationship with us, or someone will come up with a critical question, and before we know it, without even realizing it, we will begin the whole process all over again. We will become defensive on behalf of the one whose idea was critiqued. We may eventually tell the person they are spiritually immature. If they put up enough of a fight we may even mark and avoid them.

There are no healthy fellowships via TWI/CES. We need to lose that terminology and mode of thinking. Start with something fresh. Research with people who we respect, but are not intimate with, so objectivity is not lost. Develop intimate relationships with those who hold similar values, but also have opinions that differ from our own. Learn how to accept someone, love someone, be intimate with someone, without having to always be likeminded with them.