richnchrispy

here are my first thoughts on what a healthy fellowship looks like. Please add your ideas.

Attributes of a healthy fellowship:

God and Jesus are talked about and talked to

God and Jesus are asked for direction by individuals for their own life.

Leaders are really servants in practice

People are equals, no leader/follower hierarchies

Fruit of the Spirit are evident including peace

This means raging conflict is not a day to day occurrence

People are getting added and born again

There is a breaking of bread, fun side to fellowship life

Acts of charity are conducted to benefit the less fortunate

People pray and pray for one another

People want to spend time with one another

Everyone gets to share their gift and give

People are instructed in the Word and then allowed to run their own lives

People with problems are treated with mercy and respect, not like lepers

Ouch! My head hurts mommy! Can I have some St Josephs orange flavored aspirin for children?

Richard

Jeff-

I appreciate the posting of John Lynn's letter. But I think it is "too little, too late" to satisfy the questions generated by this thread.

I think this is true from the other thread.

Chrispy

This is Richard

I am just flabberghasted by the concept being pushed here by JAL that this problem is only 7 months in the making. ???????

JAL quote:

As I do my best to summarily chronicle why I have arrived at the perspective I have, space and prudence compel me to omit many incidents and details about how Mark and Karen Anne have showed up since last April, which I have heard corroborated by 12 credible, firsthand witnesses who I personally know to be faithful believers.

For years there has been a fairly widespread perception among quite a few people involved with STF that Karen Anne has been exerting an undue and negative influence on Mark, and others. Some have felt she is “running the ministry” via her prophecies, Many times I have vehemently (and, I firmly believe, rightly) defended her. Having been integrally involved in every major ministry decision from 1987-2000 and somewhat involved in many others from 2000-2005, I know that she has not “run the ministry.” That being said, I have of late been surprised to learn that the perception of her negative influence is far more pervasive than I realized, and, having been made aware of numerous incidents in which she has exerted undue and harmful influence, I no longer believe that this perception is groundless.

And by the consistent testimony of about a dozen witnesses, and in my own opinion based upon Mark and Karen Anne’s written words, the fruit in their lives has badly deteriorated in the past seven months.

end of quote

Wow.

delete JAL-type funny comments

A fountain cannot produce both good and bad water. A tree cannot produce both good and bad fruit. You plant a seed in the late 90's and over time it matures and produces more and more fruit. And the water or fruit will not be good one year and then bad the next and then good the next.

What supposedly changed 7 months ago that is any different than what many reported over the last numbers of YEARS? and what made all of those people wrong before last April?

And I find it equally sad whenever folks are used or taken advantage of...

Ditto, Tom!

I wasn't trying to single anyone out. Just looking over the entire thread.

By the way, I thank God for GSC.

Chrispy

This is Chrispy.

I find it interesting that some seem to think this sort of junk only goes on in cults. :-)

Richard and I have gone to and become very involved in several conventional churches that chop you off at the knees if they think you will threaten their authority or God forbid "steal a sheep."

It is human nature to attack an assumed enemy. But that is why Jesus said bless them and love them. Everything Jesus commanded us to do is against human nature. We must let reason control our passions. And obey the law of love.

Love you!

Chris

This is the Richard.

Good post duct - all excellent questions that I would like answered as well. I am not interested in the easy "I'M sorry, OK let's start playing in the sandbox again" kinda fix. There are some deep seated base philosophy differences that need to be ironed out - like some of the ones that keep getting a lot of different organizations into messes.

All orgs with LEADERS seem to eventually segregate LEADERS AND FOLLOWERS into two groups. And one keeps being treated SPECIAL. Corporations pay CEO's exhorbitant money when in my opinion they really do not add that much value - they hide their messes and totally overhype their successes many times. I've mentioned before a word study of leader or leading in the NT will be dominated by the phrase "blind leading the blind." Jesus's primary image was of the servant - first servant to God listening and obeying and then ministering to his or her brothers & sisters. So how do we end the reign of the Way Corps 80/20 rule? Stop saying it and stop believing it.

One thing I see is that people need to get back to asking God and Jesus what to do and stop asking for words from others. Plain and simple spend time on the phone to heaven talking and listening. This to me is one of the main purposes of servants is to teach their bros and sis's how to talk to and hear from THE DYNAMIC DUO.

The momentus/lgat way of relating to people which can and has subtlely turned into FBI like inquisition tactics needs to be laid aside in favor of a return to the words of Jesus and Paul. People need to relate to others with a heart of humility. Listening so you can hear why a person is hurting, upset needs to predominate over turning Matthew 18 into legalism. The sermon on the Mount is an awesome masterpiece that still stands before me as an awesome mount in its own right, and seems to my puny human mind as a way of living by the spirit that is almost impossible to actually live with my fellow man. Almost except with the help of God and Jesus and a huge huge huge dollup of humility.

Now am I saying lay aside anything good learned from momentus that might be an excellent tool in dealing with a difficult person right in front of you? You use a saw when you are cutting the wood to size to build the structure. But you do not use a saw to apply paint or wallpaper or nail up windows or lay down carpet. Using a hammer to apply paint is foolish. And there are times when I would rather see Christians err on the side of humility and gentleness rather than using the hammer. People are soft and cuddly and warm and surgery acts on the body just like a car accident - trauma and shock. People do not need trauma and shock to their psyches every day or even every week. 99.9% of the time they need an environment that reads like the fruit of the spirit. Galatians 5 & 6 are a great reading area for a situation like this.

I long for the day when all Christians return to an environment like the fruit of the spirit, hear their Father's voice clearly and obey, and walk in the love that Jesus said would identify us as his disciples.

This is Chrispy!

CES, at least in the writings I have read, is closest to my belief system. I am a biblical unitarian. I don't expect any organization to reflect my beliefs exactly. I do expect them to be honest and serve as they imply they will in their writings. I do not like that it is set up like TWI with the only votes that count being the boards.

I would like to see an interim board created by nominations and votes from financial givers to CES. Say minimum of $200 in the last year or any consecutive year perhaps since so many people have given up and quit giving recently. After this interim board sorts through all the c@#p of late they could serve for different terms so the old board doesn't get back in power all at the same time.

I would also like to see a body of elders have some sway in the organization. Perhaps a congregational set up.

Just a few ideas. As I have said in other posts, I still care about CES and want it to continue but with more oversight. Currently there is no body to hear grievances that is open minded enough to listen.

Maybe they could look at how other churches do it for examples.

Merry Christmas!

Yah! Merry Christmas all you posters!

I could not decide between these two cards so I am sending them both.

-Chrispy

card 1

card 2

Good post grace

Allowing the BOD and the Prez to be the focus of these problems one by one means that the individuals pressing for change can be kept separate by the organization and told one by one "you are the only one who has ever complained about this. No-one else has ever had this problem with us." That is why we have a Federal Trade Commission to complain to about major product defects and then why they eventually have product recalls when too many of the same parts fail. Large churches have these failures too - witness the priests with little boy problems plaguing the RC church and all of their coverups. It is natural to want to spare the organization the embarrassment. But it is not right.

How did the RC priest problem eventually come out? People talking to the news media.

Dear Joeoday, whoever you might be. Thank you for listening.

So many things come to mind from your posts.

So...

very...

many....

What to do? Where to begin?

Well, I shall just start...and I shall number them as I go.

#1 of ........so very many.

You asked... ”...how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. ... I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change? I think not.”

To which I reply...

GreaseSpot allows for any hidden thing to be brought to light, for each poster to be equal, and for every CESer to become informed and involved if he so chooses.

Writing the BOD allows it to keep things secret, discount certain believers, pick and choose what it informs CESers of, inflict its retaliation, browbeat and M&A, and finally, sweep whatever it chooses right back under a...new...rug.

P.S. If pen and paper is preferred, you have my permission to print out any of my posts and mail them in for me.

This is the Richie side of the dynamic duo

I agree with grace here - I wanna see the people survive, the organization is very much seconday, wayyyyy down the list.

And there are many good people, sweet people in this organization. Some are even born again.

But some are not.

Trouble and strife seems to follow some people wherever they go. But we should be showing the fruit of the spirit if we follow Jesus. People should be gentler, kinder, more peaceful after being with us.

Richard the Bitter Quitter

so labeled by Craig Martindale and relabeled by joeoday

funny how words pop up again years later

mere coincidence eh?

BillyD, you've got guts, and it's great and I accept your Merry Christmas blessing. Back at ya'!

Abigail, you are 100% correct.

I did not write that clearly, as I was getting ready to leave for the evening.

What I meant was .... the fact that they need to replace a President--even if it's not an amiable replacement--is not a crisis. It's a normal part of organizations with Presidents.

The attitudes that would lead to calling it a crisis are the EXACT REASON THEY ARE IN what they call a crisis. These Cult Attitudes would include, but certainly not be limited to...

a) they need their salary, position or image, so they fight from selfish, fearful pride: "we can't let the other Board members take it down"!

or

b) they think God needs the organization ("the ministry I love"), so they fight from selfish, religious pride: "we can't let the other Board members take it down!

Neither attitude (or any other cult attitude) has anything to do with "he that is greatest among you shall be your servant", the obvious attitude Jesus exemplified for leaders to live from. Neither even has to do with "love one another as I have loved you", the obvious attitude Jesus exemplified for every believer to live from.

There have been crises in CES and there are crises in it today.

Those holier-than-thou attitudes, though...the ones yet to be publically repented of...are the attiudes which SPAWNED them all.

Strife in CES is not a crisis...anyone with non-cult eyes would call it a hallmark.

What has been a crisis are the wrecked marriages, wrecked families, wrecked friendships, wrecked jobs, wrecked dreams, wrecked hopes, wrecked P-E-O-P-L-E.

What is now a crisis is how FAR from the simplicity in Christ the Gs have gotten and that their children are being put through a crisis they had no cause in! What is a crisis is that the other CES leaders are no closer but appear to be thinking they are.

CRISES have to do with PEOPLE, not jobs. PEOPLE, not organizations. PEOPLE, not moving the Word over the world.

I don't call this exposing of evil a crisis.

As I've said before, I call it an answer to prayer.

I know many say that they (STF leadership) hasn't listened to people. I agree, but I have also seen that people who have seen problems haven't gone about it the right way. They don't hang in there and fight. I know it's hard because they get emotionally beat up. Unfortuantely, it has taken some casualties for the pattern to emerge.

Elizabeth was treated wrong and the prophetic words were very wrong and destructive, but I agree with someone earlier who said that she is not exactly innocent either. I am not trying to put more on her than should be but the truth between her and John Lynn probably lies somewhere in the middle.

I know that Sue C. saw a lot of problems too. Unfortunately she was never in a place of power where she could effect some real change. And Sue left (I don't lay anything on her for it) but she wasn't thown out.

Rich and Chrispy, I know that you too have spoken up but have you really hung in there and tried to effect change? I've experienced you as sitting on the sidelines and doing a lot of carping and stone thowing. Rich you publicly gave that baby-poop in my diapers word of prophecy at a STF event in California three to four years ago. Come on brother, do you really think that was supposed to effect change? It was disgusting then and still is today. You criticize others for thier so called prophetic words and then you do the same thing with that "word." Brother your anger is clear, and maybe even righteously caused but you have become bitter and it is only harming you.

Chris, you say that Dan made deliverance available at a STF event , even indicating he used a questionnare etc. that probed into personal sexual issues. He does use a questionnare for those that privately meet for deliverance. It has never been used at a STF event. He has made personal ministry available for prayer and healing for physical, mental, and emotional needs. You do the Body great harm when you misspeak. He and Lori have served the Body with a deliverance ministry and set many of our brothers and sisters free of demonic influences. He does use a Pre-counseling questionnare but he does not use it against people. If people aren't willing to deal openly and honestly about their sinful issues then how do you expect them to be helped? You say he has broken confidences with it. Have you ever brought these charges against him according to matt 18? Do you have any first hand experience of this or are you basing your statements on what E says? Check your source sister.

If any of you really believe in what this ministry is trying to do then how about picking up pen and paper and writing to Board members and speaking up. Spread the word through the faith community. I think GS is great but really guys, this is not the place to make a change? I think not. Cap'n, Dmiller, TBFG, Socks, get the paper and pen out and let them know that you are upset.

I respect Jeff, Billy D., Matt, etc because they do seem to be fighting for this ministry. I don't respect naysayers and those who crab but do nothing constructive about it.

There, got it off my chest and have vented. Bring on your comments.

Finally,

If God is in it then it can not fail, if he's not, then it can not succeed.

Joe

Ckmkeon,

How do you expect them to change a website when they have fired everyone?

Joe

This is Richard

OK I know who you are. That vision God showed me several years before (at the time unknown to me the Carlsons and Stones were being pushed out) was shared at that conference with one person and not in public. Remember the conversation we had at the end of one of the evenings and you asked me why I had not been around and if I still had a problem with Mark? And we were supposed to keep talking via phone after the conf but we both had problems finding the time to meet up? I live in Houston.

And the vision was a personal one to me about what God wanted me to do and what was available to me to do in the situation. Now I did not receive this from another prophet but from God. So if you would like to war with God go ahead. And after well over ten years of involvement since 1987 with JAL etc.

Now has the vision come to pass? I rest my case. Who in this ministry has not been trashed at one time or another by this foolishness.

About the Carlsons - they seem to have a very different opinion of whether they left voluntarily or whether they were run off. They also seem to have a strong opinion about a board member who was supposed to support them at their last board meeting - and who did not. The opinion I hear from several sources about you even recently is two faced. Playing both sides. Do not trust him.

And, where has all of the board correspondence come from that is going public in various phases - who has been the pipeline for that? What could possibly be the agenda that you are pushing here? Using others as your front men and then dissing them? "Oh I am so pure! Why are these people posting confidential material?"

Letter writing to CES was a waste of time as nothing ever came back from the throne in writing. Phone call consisted of "I never said that!" Where have you heard that before?

Read the vision again - I obeyed God. God was pretty graphic wasn't He? There is no reasoning with toddlers - they are totally tied into their limbic brains. "Mine! Mine! Give that back to me. Mine!"

Better an angry wise man than a non-emotional fool. Go momentisize someone else.

Richard

This is Richard

I am going away now. Where I am going you cannot come. But I do not leave you comfortless. I will be praying for you as I play with my grandsons.

There is a reason for standing up and being heard. It is for our children and grandchildren and their legacy, for our family and our friends.

Stand fast in the liberty with which Christ has freed us and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

My goal is that the CES/STF board eventually makes a public statement of repentance and remorse and dedicates itself to sanity and restoring its relationships with the many it has harmed.

Matt

How many board meetings did you attend? You also speak of not running people off. Was this courtesy extended to Dave and Sue Carlson? How many leaders promised the Carlsons support and then abandoned them at the last second? How many of these leaders have repented of just this one incident? How many others have been run off over the past six years, Matt?

Matt how long did these leaders deceive you and hide from you their sins against others? Have you ever been aware of these sins and done nothing? Which is it - sins hidden or you aware and not speaking up? You cannot be foolish enough to believe this all began 6 months ago can you?

Can YOU name any of my other long time friends who were either driven off, or got tired of the wackiness and found something better?

I keep asking this question and never get an answer - is this ministry any larger now than it was ten years ago? People and ministries build up track records. This group of leaders and their ministry do have a track record.

Another former office staffer just wrote me about wondering about the ongoing high level of strife and conflict for years - the party line was CES was angering Satan and he was kicking back. Uh no! Love and the other fruit of the spirit should eventually evidence themselves in your relationships if you are ministering in a loving spirit. See and this was even in the back of the staffer's mind. But no-one spoke up! No-one campaigned for sanity! Who would have objected? I know.

Some have commented on a few of my posts and the fact that I am angry - but as one friend points out I have been angry for a few years now. Some of the people who are now on my side today, know I was angry way before they were. My problem is not knowing too little. It is knowing too much.

All it takes is for good men and women to do nothing and then we can all be slaves. I personally have no interest in being a slave to Satan.

There is a difference between wanting to do a good thing and actually accomplishing it. This ministry has had a rotten core for a while.

Richard

Personally I am appalled at how many of you have judged these matters without knowing even a fraction of the truth. One of the reasons I have never posted on this board before is because it saddens me so much to see how much pain exists within many of the members here. But sadder then that is the bitterness with which many of you approach life--so full of critical judgment, yet so lacking in grace.

I do not discount all of the people on here who are genuinely seeking truth and attempting to honestly sort through the current situation with CES. Yet, too many of you care only for another reason to shun "religion" and shun organization. I think it is a pitiful way to live, and for my own conscience sake I had to be honest about my feelings towards this board and some of its members before posting anything in regards to the CES situation. I have no doubt I will be "flamed" in this thread because of my opinion, but don't waste your time as I won't respond to it. If you take offense at my opinion PM me and I would be happy to talk to you.

I resigned from the office in early November for one very simple reason. I no longer trust Mark and Karen Anne Graeser. Mark is a very different man these days, many will attest to that. As more facts have come to light, I have seen that there are a handful of others who are not to be trusted with leadership positions. However, this ministry is a God-fearing, Christ-loving ministry and for six years I have seen nothing to contradict that fact. I only see now a few people who have found that they can no longer run from their sins and they are being held to account for them.

Yes the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, and yes it probably went on to long. Everyone always wants to ask why. The answer is simple. Life is messy. You criticize us now when we take too long to do what you would think is right, and you would certainly criticize us if we removed everyone from the ministry who committed even the slightest infraction. We are, in many of your eyes, in a lose-lose situation. It is for that reason that I write not for many of you on this board, but to the partners and contributors of CES who are already coming here trying to find answers.

The ministry has always been like a family to me. And like any family there are problems, and you don't run off members you disagree with, even when they cause hurt and pain. You extend love, grace, and forgiveness just as Jesus Christ would do. This was granted many times to the Graesers, yet now it has become obvious that they are unwilling to change and repent for the evil they have and are currently causing. The board members (with the exception of Tom Resner) are most certainly holding them accountable and I have seen nothing to suggest that they are in agreement with Karen's view of the prophetic, let alone the brazen and manipulative manner with which she carries out her so-called dreams from God. For those of you concerned about CES' view of the prophetic I can assure you that a handful of people hardly represent the ministries views. It pains me to know that she has been allowed to be so hurtful with so many people. But one person's sin is not going to drive me away from a ministry, especially not when so many people are holding her feet to the fire.

Nearly all of the concerns I have seen on here are completely unmerited with no real evidence to back them up. Should you be concerned about the way Elizabeth was treated? Absolutely, yet neither was she innocent in the role she played. Should you be concerned with the way some people are choosing to view and use prophecy? Absolutely, but none of you has the right to make blanket statements and far-fetched assumptions about how the ministry was run by this so-called prophetic guidance. It never has been, and because of the men and women who are taking a stand against Mark, I believe it never will be. In fact, perhaps to the dismay of some here, I believe that CES will stand stronger then ever when all is said and done. Thankfully, I don't claim to be a prophet and so that's just my opinion, and I will stand in it if I am wrong.

Any questions you have regarding the ministry and how it was run, I would be happy to answer. In six years, I believe that I understand the hearts and motives of the leaders in this ministry. This has come both by listening to their words, and watching their actions. I believe that I can fairly represent the true issues at hand for those who actually have a desire to know.

God bless,

Matthew

Matthew-

Thank you for your well-written post and for your offer to converse with any interested parties.

I too feel like some in CES are like family. I have been involved in some fashion since 1988 when John Lynn, Ralph Debofsky and Robert Belt wrote a 37 page letter that helped those of us that left TWI after the Adultery paper firings to grieve and move on.

However, I would add these comments to yours below:

I no longer trust Mark and Karen Anne Graeser. .... As more facts have come to light, I have seen that there are a handful of others who are not to be trusted with leadership positions. ...

...But one person's sin is not going to drive me away from a ministry, especially not when so many people are holding her feet to the fire.

...Yes the prophetic has been abused, yes people have been hurt, and yes it probably went on to long. ...

Hopefully the Sower will illuminate the truth of these sins and true repentence. Not try to spin it in a web of half truths

...Nearly all of the concerns I have seen on here are completely unmerited with no real evidence to back them up.

... I believe that CES will stand stronger then ever when all is said and done.

I pray you are correct.

Chrispy

This is Chrispy-

Someone asked about deliverance sessions that Elizabeth mentions in her letter. I remember being at a conference, can't remember when, but Dan was there and people were scheduling deliverance sessions with him. He had a questionaire that was to be filled out and then, I have heard, during the session, he would go down the list, interpreting your responses as indicative of demonic influence or not, then cast something out if he thought something was there. Problem was that some of the questions were very personal. Like have you had any sexual dreams, etc.

If you did fill out this questionaire, they have a lot of spiritual, if not literal, blackmail power over you. Perhaps it could just be a look that meant, "Agree with me, or I know exactly what to say to innocently let the cat out of the bag."

That is what momentus was all about. Poke and prod until you find a weakness and then push until you make a breakthrough. In other words, the object of the torture sees it your way and submits. Once you make that a habit, they own your soul. Guess who they are working for?

You have to understand that the people working this evil don't realize it is evil. They really think they are doing a great service. The proof is in the fruit.

Rich,

What's the good? :unsure: You have me curious.

More of the right people are being networked together. Some healing is taking place. Ignorance is being brushed away and fog dispelled. I see glimmers of repentance. Sorry I can't be more specific at this time. But the pipeline is flowing.

The Ents are stirring and I think when they see the other Ents and trees that have been hacked to pieces, well who knows what might happen. Frodo and Samwise are approaching Mount Doom with the ring. The fellowship of the ring continues. One really small person can make a difference.

The common law says a man or woman has the inherent right to defend themselves when attacked.

However when the Knicks and the Nuggets had an on court NBA brawl recently the commissioner suspended everyone involved whether they struck first or second. NBA special rules.

So to say someone was not all innocent still begs several questions now unanswered.

It would be nice to think that people would not retaliate when attacked. I find I know of almost no-one in my entire 51 years capable of such restraint. A few would leave and withdraw completely, but hurt. It is our instinct. The sermon on the mount goes against our physical instincts. Those commandments or suggestions must be spiritual in nature and I would imagine it takes some work to get close to actually living them.

I imagine an environment where the constant pressure, the constant twisting of my words, the constant accusations disguised as helping me to clarify my values and improve me, would wear me down and cause me to look at demon infested people and tell them to just STFU. In the name of Jesus Christ of course.

Momentus and Personal Prophecy have now combined in a one two punch, sorta like peanut butter and chocolate combined to become a Reese's Cup. Reese's PooPoo Smearing Cup! Hard slick mometus cliches on the outside! Thick gooey personal prophecy attacks on the inside. And "we" have decided it's your turn, whether you decide you want it or not! And the aroma? Roasted in the pit of hell for that unforgettable poopaccino smell.

Hurry up and buy them fast during this holiday season as it seems some have finally caught on to us and they may be pulled from the market soon!!

In case you get this on your skin or in your hair, just wash in the blood of the lamb - it is guaranteed to remove the deepest stains and wash away that ugly smell. Available via Repentance. Just call Jesus, open 24/7 always in stock! If you've been selling these junk bars, just apply with Jesus for the same cleansing treatment but act fast before your conscience is seared!

The Richard half of the dynamic duo

I'm a big one for reading the Bible at fellowship. Then let everyone comment. read 1 2 or 3 chapters, the entire sermon on the mount. Or comment during the reading, then continue.

Don't like the teaching where someone grabs 2-10 short scriptures, wraps their own interpretation onto it and then expounds for 1-2 hours. For one thing I think most of these type teachings could be 2-10 scriptures and 5-10 minutes of comments, followed by comments by the fellowship members.

I am also totally in favor of some topics being handled like discussion groups with continuous back and forth rather than one person talking for an hour.

I still think the major job of one of God's servants is to stir up the spirit inside of people. Too much american classroom technique instilled in our churches and in us ex-wayers. Adults should sit together and break bread and converse.

99% of teachers are not good enough to keep people interested in a one way sermon for longer than 10-15 minutes.

John S. did a word study of "adultery"

Now we need one of the word leader and leadership and leading. Oh in the NT it most closely fits with the blind leading the blind......Bop me in the head if I am wrong.

So what is our model? Jesus said something about being servants. Now what could that possibly mean?

Being part of a community where people lead based upon their gifts and which gift is needed today. And not based upon who has a title? If there is no centralized leader role held by one two or three people then no one can steal it. Poof the fear is gone. If there is need for structure the fulltime people are administrators not leaders or rulers. If there is a need for a board, the board presents issues to the community for votes. Not "this is my ministry, I built it and no one is taking it from me!"

A community where hey not the leader's home, but some old lady's home needs repaired and we go together and fix it. We get some bags of groceries together for someone down on their luck and fill the fridge.

The important thing is we all ask God and Jesus "hey what is on the agenda for today Lord?"

And the amazing thing is our question will be answered.

The most important doctrines are the two great commandments. If it takes all day to fulfil those two, then we just start over again in the morning on just those two, and ask God and Jesus for what is sufficient for today. Keep living this way until we understand a little bit about the sermon on the mount.

I can report (vaguely at this point) that good things happened yesterday. I will encourage the recipients of the good to post or provide permission to post. But the bad stuff put up here on GS has led to people's eyes being opened.

Richard

What Elizabeth's correspondence shows me is a ministry willing to stick its nose in and use a supposedly Godly tool to destroy a marriage. What God has joined together let no person tear asunder. And this only a short time after that same ministry was arranging and blessing the marriage.

The same prophets and prophetesses who made a mistake arranging a marriage a short time before, now correcting their horrendous mistake?

I think not. Who needs P&P's like this??? Not me.

Word is a lot of people are finally hearing Elizabeth's side and the unvarnished truth about what demons did to her. And calling her and saying "I'm sorry, I didn't know, I didn't know!"

When I was a child I called these guys Larry, Curly and Moe.

Janitors have more dignity and respect than you fools do! At least they do honorable work. You know who you pretenders are! Lurk in the darkness here like the foul vermin you are! Go beg a janitor for permission to work alongside him for a day doing honorable work.

Ordained clergy. Paaahhhh! I spit on your graves you whitewashed sepulchers!

Let your words and your curses be swift to find your unclean hearts and roost like vultures until you turn yourselves back to the Lord and repent!!!

What you did in secret let it be exposed on the rooftops!!!

Let the fire of the Lord God Almighty fall in the name of Jesus Christ and separate the gold and silver from the chaff and the dung.

I found pond/mj's post rather enlightening about how Mark blocked her email address when she asked him to address the issues that are being discussed on this board...

Whoops! Fells asleep for a moment and had a little dream...

It went something like this:

A baby in a diaper, but with Mark's adult head, starts trying to do damage control from his playpen...

Just kidding...

Seriously... $5 says that the one of the two anonymous readers on this thread right now is Mark and another $5 says the other anonymous reader is JAL. They say they want nothing to do with this board, but I bet my bippy that they've checked this out by now - gimme a break.

Hi guys!

It's sad that CES has gone as far south as it has. It could have been a good thing. It could still be a good thing if they clean up their act and stop experimenting with the occult.

My impression, when I went to a meeting where JAL came to Manchester, NH (that was hosted by PJRoberge) was that he (JAL) didn't know how to take care of people at all. His teaching that night consisted of tangents and little fact or scripture. He never put his focus on the needs of the group or the area - just CERTAIN individuals. His interactions with others that night after the teaching consisted on "readings" or personal phrophsey and no interactiosn with people who didn't want that - i.e. he shunned them (me!).

Thanks, but no thanks.

Hubby continued to follow along with some of their stuff until about a year ago, but from a distance - THANK GOD!

God laughed by the way about you using His baby in the playpen imagery. He told me so.

Several times CES leaders either visited or wanted to visit. Discussions with them about coming down and actually spending personal time ministering to people and getting to know people one on one, rather than doing the three to five hot 3 hour teachings, all went unheeded - no interest. But then there has been no interest on our part in having more visits of the hot 3 hour teachers come back to tickle our ears and then disappear. Unsolicited phone calls from CES in the last 10 years to say hi and see how life was in our world? Uh let me check my phone log...... Gee I must never have been in the 80% time category.....

Richard

This is the Rich half of the dynamic duo. Lots of good posts. I think much of the non-doctrinal problem with this ministry is again due to the underlying leadership paradigm that they believe and live. And I believe that much of this paradigm is one shared with the American Corporate world and with TWI.

It is the opposite of The Lord of the Rings written by Tolkien which had at its basis the theme that the little man could do something that would make a difference. American business, sports and TWI and many other ministries are based upon belief in the superstar.

Too many people I know both ex WAy and otherwise discount their worth because some "leader" somewhere discounted it and either belittled them outright or did it by ignoring them and talking up the superstar.

Prayer is certainly necessary but the longer some of these people remain in ignore and (damage) control mode the more it becomes apparent that some of them think they have done nothing wrong.

It will just go away eventually. Not everyone will read GS.

There have been backroom politics and what I believe to have been manipulation to gain control of this ministry and board going on for several years - which is why some have not been free to be as verbal as they have liked although they are leaders. Remember that satan is a deceiver and so this is not the first or last time that a leader would lie or be lied to. There are people now on board this train who did not listen several years ago when others blew the train whistle.

But get enough poo smeared on ya and one day ya wake up and realize you no longer smell like flowers.

OODF-

I guess you have not followed my posts. What they have done to Elizabeth was the last straw for me.

I am sure from outside they (CES and TWI) look the same. Of course there are similarities. All churches, made up of people, will have some. I am saying, as someone who has been involved with CES for a long time, that there is still value worth fighting for there.

It remains to be seen how CES/STF will respond to this and other reproof. I am still hoping for the best from the Theisens, Dan Gallagher, John Schoenheit and John Lynn.

Regards,

Chrispy

This is Chrispy again!

I think there are significant differences between TWI and CES/STF or Craig and John Lynn. Are they perfect no, But have you ever heard anything good about Craig Martindale? His jokes weren't even good.

And TWI had an agenda of greed for a long time before Schoenheit accidently blew the doors off with a simple word study on adultery. CES has had good roots. Sure they started out trying to keep the good from TWI, but they did grow past that, as we each did. I notice I haven't heard the phrase "Way Brain" in a long time. We all have grown.

I have seen some awesome teachings from Schoenheit and because I have had personal contact with him, I am sure his humility is not an act. Likewise I have been sure of John Lynn's motives in the past. John Lynn and John Schoenheit founded CES, Graeser was grafted in later, if I remember correctly. Then his wife wanted more input. Then they got their kids on the bandwagon and poof, they are in control. Hmm. Little by little, inch by inch John Lynn lost CES.

Most ministries/churches put out a good spin as much as they can. I believe all of them have baggage and skeletons because they are made up of people. How CES/STF Board members handle this mess will determine their reputation for me. If they rise to the occasion, I won't lump them with others dead to me now because of broken promises. Because those that would consider themselves leaders have an implied promise to those they claim to serve.

Regards,

Chrispy