Dartanian3m

Oakspear Why would you make a remark like that? There is none perfect except Jesus...you know that better than anyone here. I don't recall JAL telling me or you how to run our lives....he had/has the love to stand up and proclaim what he knows to be the truth regardless of his shortcomings and the dead corpse we all carry around with us (Romans...I find then a law...the things I would not ..those I do...and the things I would those I do not.....) Remember those words at all? Does the fact that I or you or JAL falls short in any area of our life preclude us from voicing what we believe to be the truth of God's Word? And when the adversary beats us or one of our brothers or sisters in any area of life should we as a body find some comfort in "karmic justice"? I really wish you could hear what I am saying here....not because I am better than you...etc etc etc

JAL SAID "If you are one of those ex-Way folks still sitting on the sidelines taking potshots at me and CES http://www.CESonline.org without any current firsthand knowledge of my heart and life or our ministry, bless you." Now why would I or anyone else take offense to that statement unless the shoe fitted? .....hmmmmmmm.....a simple question that I am sure someone wearing the shoe will come up with a thoroughly logical rationale to twist to suit their purposes and use to tear apart all that stand in the way of their stronghold

The whole issue of divorce has been such ball and chain around my neck for so long that I can no longer bear the weight of it. To "live" with someone who brings out the worst in you and seems to enjoying doing so is tormenting beyond words...especially when children are used both as swords and shields in a joist to justify one's actions and "the Word of God" is used as a fiery dart to render one guilty and justify oneself as innocent. Who could ever imagine such things- that one would only expect to be seen in horror movies. Lives manipulated, tormented, and forever scarred, hearts seared of all feeling, a life without hope of a happier day. And so I have endured refusing to admit defeat and failure before an adversary that mocks me as the life is drained from me day by day. As I watch my children become victims to a curse unimaginable. And so I leave in just 2 weeks hence- 2000 miles from my children with no certainty what the future will bring for me or for them. But with a prayer of peace and healing for all concerned. How can a father leave his children? How can he stay? watching them being sacrificed day by day...their hopes and dreams being stolen by 2 so selfish and cruel people....their mom and dad.

Paw...here is a quote that my dad gave me when I was quite young...it has always held a special place in my heart.... A Father's Prayer by General Douglas MacArthur Build me a son, O Lord, who will be strong enough to know when he is weak, and brave enough to face himself when he is afraid; one who will be proud and unbending in honest defeat, and humble and gentle in victory. Build me a son whose wishbone will not be where his backbone should be; a son who will know Thee and that to know himself is the foundation stone of knowledge. Lead him, I pray, not in the path of ease and comfort, but under the stress and spur of difficulties and challenge. Here let him learn to stand up in the storm; here let him learn compassion for those who fail. Build me a son whose heart will be clean, whose goal will be high; a son who will master himself before he seeks to master other men; one who will learn to laugh, yet never forget how to weep; one who will reach into the future, yet never forget the past. And after all these things are his, add, I pray, enough of a sense of humor, so that he may always be serious, yet never take himself too seriously. Give him humility, so that he may always remember the simplicity of greatness, the open mind of true wisdom, the meekness of true strength. Then I, his father, will dare to whisper, "I have not lived in vain".

to live in a world surrounded by tens and thousands and millions of souls and to be trully known and to trully know not one heart intimately and completely....the song of so many remains the same

dang catsup how come I didnt notice that your panties were all twisted and bunched up???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rascal...I will forgive you for your unforgiving heart as soon as you say 7 our fathers and 5 holy marys... --> :)-->

Greetings Research Geek! What a breathe of fresh air you are!!! Regardless of the posts that follow and the rationals that attempt to justify their positions or lay credence to their excuses...TRULLY your heart is pure and "simple" ...and in this simplistic purity....(in the midst, for example, of some who advertise unsolicited and unrealated posts in a thread and take pride in being responsible for TWI losing $50K in abundant sharing)....lies the healing that we all need to humbly acknowledge as we look to ourselves and what God has so willingly and unselfishly forgiven us for. Thank you Research Geek for sharing your pure heart with us.

I must say that I find this whole post to be outrageous and really dreadging for dirt in an unholy way. Trying to discredit a newsletter that the youth of CES or any other organization put together just because you have nothing more profitable to do is repugnant to say the least. Was there nothing of the content contraversial so the logo becomes the focus of attention?Excuse me while i grab my vomit bag.

Thanks for posting this pjroberge I wish I would have seen this back in 1987 so that much of the confusion I experienced caused by unanswered questions could have been avoided or at least better understood.

Initially I tried to understand your post Cynic but perhaps its best I don't afterall.

Thank you Shazdancer for sharing your experience with JAL with us. Thank you JAL for never claiming to be perfect but for having the strength of mind and heart and the love to share your understanding and experience of God's heart.

Mike don't slap yourself on the back too hard please...what was the context of expounding upon your meaning of true love... the paragraph preceding it sets the stage... YOU SAID "I’ve watched this whole JAL single-event, drive-by-posting with his emissary advance man careful testing the water temperature and tasting the food for him weeks ahead of time. I’ve seen how he is simply culling,via his ground rules, through all the moaners and groaners for few potential back-slappers who might still dig his style or Bible tid-bits. He can slap their backs and they can slap his, and simply ignore those with no such predisposition." Then you said.... "No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too." A beautiful selection of words eliquently put in a backdrop to attack the creditabilty of 2 men ..nothing more or nothing less... yes those were fine words taken by themselves- and are likened to diamonds- BUT in the context that you set them they stand as a setting of "fine" LEAD...not words to inspire me but words to promote your condemnation ...HOW DARE YOU ASSUME TO KNOW THE HEARTS AND INTENTS OF JEFF AND JAL... be honest with yourself Mike...I wish you no illwill...

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MIKE an answer to your post with responses in parenthesis Dart, You wrote: “Jesus Christ never rolled in the quicksand with those who were struggling to get out …” I think you’re only looking at a few aspects of Jesus’ pre-Calvary ministry. On the cross he “hung out” with 3 antagonistic criminals who “cast the same in his teeth.” Hours later Jesus not only rolled in the quicksand, he rolled in the grave with those who couldn’t even struggle any more. (and what of offering ourselves as living sacifices Mike or should we allow ourselves to be pulled into other peoples struggles so that we cant be there with our feet on solid ground) I’d like to see John Lynn answer Oakspear’s question. Then I’d like to see him tell us,if VPW should be so approving of his work, how he snubbed ,and continues to snub, Dr’s last teaching and his final instructions to master PFAL, both in 1985 and then again in 1998 when I brought it to his attention. I’d like to see him answer why he snubbed, and continues to snub, Dr’s 1979 instruction to all Advanced Class grads to master RHST which I’ve posted on numerous occasions here.(((HELLO MIKE!!!!!!! IS VPW GOD ALMIGHTY??????)(HE IS TO YOU...that in my opinion is a BIG problem) I’d like to ask him how many other instructions he ignored from Dr back in the good old days when he was supposed to be an assistant of Dr’s in Dr’s ministry to us. Did he use Dr’s extreme popularity among many grads back then to develop his own following, just as he appealed to the very few mild admirer’s of vpw left here on this board? (You really have issues with people who don't obey the word of VPW ....don't you MIKE) I don’t think he (JAL) nor any of the other derelict top leadership have ever developed the spiritual balls to really face a single adversary who was amply equipped with word skills, let alone a whole community of them like here. Most top leadership left the debate-rich witnessing field to us lower peons in the early 70’s, and either lost or never developed the ability to sustain a friendly debate. For decades all their disagreements with grad underlings ended very early with psychological word-trickery or body language like grimacing, growling, or clenched fists.(They face the adversary every day of their lives Mike and they fight to make a difference...what about you...can you say the same...you be the judge) Leader types like him are too afraid to publicly debate lest this great weakness of theirs be exposed, leaving them with potentially less gainful employment. (DEBATE? is that why JAL and others have come here??? to debate....maybe you come here for such but don't expect others to be at your level...) I’ve watched this whole JAL single-event, drive-by-posting with his emissary advance man careful testing the water temperature and tasting the food for him weeks ahead of time. I’ve seen how he is simply culling,via his ground rules, through all the moaners and groaners for few potential back-slappers who might still dig his style or Bible tid-bits. He can slap their backs and they can slap his, and simply ignore those with no such predisposition. No, Dart, Jesus went down into the valley of human need and dared his adversaries to their faces so well, handled their debate challenges so well, that their only recourse was violence, and even that had to be under the cover of darkness. He went to the people who were hurting and put up with a lot of their bs, as well as their moaning and groaning and unbelief because he loved them. His mission was the impossible, and he made it possible for those with the REAL Christ in them to do it too. (the real Christ Mike???? Its people who use the Word to prove their point that really offend me Mike...consider me offended Mike...a little more heart and a little less scriptural reference would serve us all better)(hearts are not healed by debate they are healed by understanding, gentleness, forgiveness, and compassion, and the knowledge that there is only ONE enemy and JAL isnt him)

sky4it ...u stated... Dart: Your comment about Rascal: JAL addressed potential complainers and whiners but NEVER stated you were one nor did he dismiss all as such. YOU assumed that role for yourself. I think that is unfair of you Dart.(what is unfair of me sky4it??? no one has called rascal a complainer or whiner...she only has labeled herself such) Peoples experiences have widely varied from The Way and Ex Way types. Some folks are genuinely wounded. It does not good to dismiss such folks complaints as excessive, it only serves the purpose of poisioning there hurting faith in God (there comes a time and point I beleive when complaints are excessive if there is no corresponding motion to move forward sky4it). People need genuine love for healing, not bullets. (I AGREE) I see it differently. These are not Rascals whining or complaints but hurts. (Rascal is fixated on JAL just posting once if it such a concern of hers why doesnt she act on it and call JAL and express her sentiments)(ie the difference ..stating your complaint and just going on and on about it with no motion to resolve it) She needs the ability to express them. Anything else IMO, is intimidation. These people here have no book to write, no audience that hears them. JAL has that. Why shouldnt they have simple expression without it being labeled as complaints or whining?

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Yes Dont fence me in Dartanian3m said to Rascal: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesus Christ never rolled in the quicksand with those who were struggling to get out ...he rather extended his hand (not grabbing hands) for those who desired deliverance..those who believed in him saw their opportunity to escape and took his hand -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please help me get this straight. If this is not what you meant, please correct me but this is what I heard you say: *JAL represents Jesus Christ, the healthy one *We are in the quicksand *If we want to get out, we need to look to JAL for deliverance That's what it sounded like you were saying. Are you SERIOUS??? OF COURSE that is what I am saying...I am dead serious...do you feel better now(excuse me while i go back to work and finish carving my graven image of JAL)

rascal's post with replies in parenthesis Afraid of??? lol, I am *afraid* of nothing that you or John Lynn have to say....I am just uninterested in more bible schpeal from one who still desires the aproval of a proven evil man(are we referring to VPW...he has been dead rascal for about 20 years..Are the dead alive...does JAL seek the approval of a deadman?....if you are born again racal you will spend eternity with this EVIL man...does that bother you...if so take it up with the MAN upstairs). I don`t trust that persons judgement or discernment abilities.... Listen carefully please....what I AM ...is disgusted by his pseudo love and pretended concern....PERIOD! NOT fear...disgust!(no Racal you are very hurt and wounded and hide your affliction behind a guise of anger and sarcasm) If John seriously cared about me or anyone else....he wouldn`t categorise and dismiss us as whiners and complainers....(where do you see that in his opening post....quote it to me please I dare you to find it) See...if he honestly cared, he would minister to people WHERE they were at .... IN a method that they could understand and accept...whether it was a medium he himself is comfortable with or not.....thats how the REAL love of God ....,AND Jesus I will add, operated.(did not JAL come here to meet you and others at "your" medium...why are you so uncomfortable then??) I have no problem with John Lynn and what he does....but don`t pretend you care when you are unwilling to bestir yourself to even converse with folks(he started a conversation have you responded rascal....I started a conversation and you misquoted me and made all types of erroneous assumptions and came to conclusions that are not so...have you showed you care about ME rascal...am I suppose to "FEEL THE LOVE SOMEWHERE HERE FROM YOU")........don`t break your arm patting yourself on the back thinking that you have done anything for God or anyone else.......it`s the same old infomercial as we heard in twi....I can`t help you but I have the materials/class that can.....bah....that is the cowards way out....that is the pseudo love...and is greatly lacking in any true benefit....it simply looks and sounds good.....and you can asuage your guilty conscience.(JAL has no conscious according to you and others so how could be concerned with asuaging (what does that mean anyway...lol)his so called guilty conscious)

RESPONSE TO SATORI's POST (reposted with responses in parenthesis) quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Dartanian3m: JAL addressed potential complainers and whiners but NEVER stated you were one nor did he dismiss all as such. YOU assumed that role for yourself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey Dart-board,(thanks for the name calling satori..real mature stance to take...attack the person with derogatory remarks...set the tone... if anyone has assumed this role, it's you. Along with your complaints(quote my complaint satori) about GSC failing to bend at the knee before your favorite(I didn't know I had favorites...thanks for pointing that out) cult leaders, you have made yourself an accuser here(oh really and what accusations have I made satori). As accuser, you are pretty much saying that anyone who doesn't see fit to meet John Lynn only on his own terms is, by definition, a "complainer and whiner."(have no clue as to what you are saying satori...I never said the above...YOU did...would you like to know what I meant?? then kindly ask) Get yourself a clue,(sure satori you are so kind and aptient I will look to you for a clue)Dartanian. Cow-towing (the only cow-towing I see here satori is your prideful self attacking anyone who disagrees with you FOR YEARS NOW) to kind of self-serving, pseudo-spiritual, elitest rubbish went out with the trash. CES is hawking Jesus like he was a get-rich-quick real estate seminar(oh really you have checked them out have you....when and where may I ask). I find your own attitude(ATTITUDE ATTITUDE LMAO was that a joke...of course it was coming from your mouth) every bit as mercenary (I understand now satori from your gentle and understanding ways how mercenary I am...thank you.)as CES, and therefore TWI.

Rascal Jesus Christ never rolled in the quicksand with those who were struggling to get out ...he rather extended his hand (not grabbing hands) for those who desired deliverance..those who believed in him saw their opportunity to escape and took his hand. As to the medium of communication, You honestly examine the posts here and determine what specific questions have been posed here for JAL to answer. JAL addressed potential complainers and whiners but NEVER stated you were one nor did he dismiss all as such. YOU assumed that role for yourself.

rascal and others: JAL made himself COMPLETELY available to anyone that wants to stand accountable for their words and thoughts and deeds via a PERSONAL communication (HE supplied 2 phone numbers and an email address and exhorted any and all to call him). He also stated that he wanted it to be known that if he had offended anyone in any way he desired to know of it and desired forgiveness.("In the past 17+ years, I have asked forgiveness from plenty of ex-Way folks who said I hurt them, even if I didn't remember the incident, so I have no problem with you expressing personal offenses with me. I will not engage those who I sense want only to bitch about the past, but will do all I can for those who really want some help moving on and fulfilling their personal ministries.") If anyone wants to stand make themselves known and speak it's available...if anyone desires to hide and post cutting posts without a heart of walking in God's grace and mercy... that's available also. God is a God of liberty. What are you afraid of Rascal? What have you got to lose? Some say love, it is a river that drowns the tender reed. Some say love, it is a razor that leaves your soul to bleed. Some say love, it is a hunger, an endless aching need. I say love, it is a flower, and you its only seed. It's the heart afraid of breaking that never learns to dance. It's the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance. It's the one who won't be taken, who cannot seem to give, and the soul afraid of dyin' that never learns to live. When the night has been too lonely and the road has been to long, and you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong, just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows lies the seed that with the sun's love in the spring becomes the rose.

John Lynn lovingly made himself available to anyone here who would like to speak to him with a view towards repair and restoration and moving forward with the things of God. Perhaps, just perhaps, that is more motion than some here have made in years...**as Jesus said to his apostles while shaking his head in utter disbelief...how long must I be with you**

Oh yeah....thanks for the word of support Oak...it really touched me...lol nice to see ya again...:-)

Pat -Please look at your post ""Since TWI has "moved" Mrs. Wierwille into the nursing home, who is now living in her home and enjoying her possessions? I also wonder if they let her keep her sentimental momentos like pictures etc. or did they toss them? Or did they put them into "storage", so that she can come and visit them sometime? "" What do the quotation marks mean here..are they not for sarcasm Is this a question because you are HONESTLY concerned about Mrs W's stuff... OR is this another subtle way to attack the Way Ministry in the guise of being so concerned about MrW and her stuff No need to reply..I ask you to honestly judge for yourself I take back the dark agenda comment please accept my apologies I honestly believe you cant see what you are doing here Pat.. You are being consumed by your anger against the Way Ministry for hurting you...I understand that and I am sorry for you, I really am, but please for GOD'S sake .. MOVE ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!