potato

I can tell the difference between anger and hatred, Dave. there is some hate, yes. do I like feeling it? no. not healthy, which is why I don't intend to let it linger. I just don't feel like sharing the details of all the work I've done, am doing, and have yet to do. however, you assume that since I was in for 20 years, I've been angry for 20 years. actually, the anger is a pretty recent development and has surfaced as a result of finally getting past the conditioning that prevented me from feeling it at the time I should have. and when I walked away from twi, I didn't get to leave it all behind. I don't get angry at the mail carrier being late, or by someone tailgating or cutting me off. that would be momentary irritation. irritation passes. anger needs to be dealt with. don't like it? too bad. I'm still angry at twi and the abuses they taught, things that damaged me and my children. it stares me fresh in the face every day. but it gets better with every week of work we put into overcoming it. I suppose it could look like bitterness to those who had an easy time of leaving and adjusting. if I could face those who hurt me, would I? no. why? I'm too afraid of them. my hope is that when I overcome the fear of what they did or could do, I will no longer hate them or be angry. at least I've gotten over caring whether people gripe about the "whiners" who are still dealing with the hurt. that's a first step. I never said I was perfect, and I've stated before that if I could find some people I know now that I took a hand in hurting, I would like to apologize. however, I don't feel the need to excuse certain leadership, nor excuse the corruption of the "ministry", as it was designed to serve one man's ego. I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to assume vpw or lcm were christian and therefore brothers who deserve the prayers of the faithful. I recognize that it is absolutely possible for personality disordered individuals to give every outward sign of pious religiosity, yet be devoid of true belief.

thanks for bumping this up, Belle. and HCW, thanks for all the time and heart you put into writing your story.

I mix my silverware on purpose to prevent nesting of spoons and forks because they DO NOT get clean when they nest. someone's OCPD trickled down the way tree too far.

that other jesus who said adultery was ok for the MOG? I heard of him!

I worked so hard to forget these things!!! only THW's beautiful song prevented me from curling into a fetal position and whimpering.

not arguing with that OM. if it's true, I'll see them one of these days. I was wondering more what's the point of proclaiming vpw and lcm christians while chiding people for being angry, like that makes those men more worthy of prayer than the guy next door who fixed my gate just to be nice. none of us knows if they were christian or not. vpw and lcm aren't my brothers just because we were in the same cult and they made the rules. anger is one of the steps you have to go through when you deal with loss. being told not to be angry at someone who hurt you because they're christian is like telling someone don't be angry at uncle for touching you because he's family and we don't tell on family. so biblefan dave believes we all have a responsibility to sweep it under the carpet and not be angry because anger makes you do bad things... well, what bad things? I'm just curious. I had a lot of years of people telling me what I should do for my own good, so if someone thinks I should forgive someone and tells me dude's my brother so get over it, I want to know why. there must be some logic in there somewhere beyond being in the same cult.

strangely, I'm finding that normal people don't look down on me for my cult experience. it was quite a surprise after all the condemnation in twi, I'll tell ya! it still took a while to be able to talk about it with my therapist. boy was I shocked that she understood where I was coming from! I am proud to be x-way. I survived and got out. that's saying a lot.

I wish I'd know the truth about why other people left instead of just hearing the whitewashed twi spin on the cop-out's motives, misdeeds or devil-spirit possession. I've uncovered the truth to a small extent over the years and made peace with some people. when I left I only told a few people why, but I wasn't in the mood to have innies try to talk me out of leaving. I took my kids with me. it was still months before I could overcome the shame enough to admit to my closest friends that I'd spent 20 years in a cult.

I don't disagree with you on what you say about attacks. I'm just wondering how you know VPW and LCM were christians. I know they said they were, but their fruit indicates otherwise.

hi Tex! I went in about the time you got out. it never changed. I look forward to your book as well.

actually, I was talking to Tom, but I'll humor you... I asked you why you're bothered whenever someone talks about abuse in twi, and in post #323 of the Offences thread you said: Well that's an easy one but probably a foreign concept to you. Integrity, Truth Despite the problems in/with The Way they deserve to be represented with honesty and truth not speculation,fuzzy memories, and guesses. you seem very concerned with what twi deserves and not at all concerned with the hearts of people who've been hurt. what do they deserve? it's twi who has a problem with speculation, fuzzy memories, and guesses. I proved that for myself when I called to get information about a meeting the RC ordered. twi accuses the brethren all day long. I was barely in when you left. I probably heard you made an example of, since that's what was done about people like you who stood up to leadership. they told lies about you, about your motives, and twisted your words and intent. I spent time at all the root locations (not much at Emporia, but plenty at the others) and lived around HQ for years and saw it first hand. twi never represented the other side fairly, EVER. it's taken me years to piece it together, but I've established the truth for myself. there is no meekness and not a scrap of godly sorrow inherent in the fabric of twi culture. individuals choose to live in a godly way the best they can inside... I know some who do, in fact, and they do it in spite of twi, not because of. the "ministry" itself is a corrupt machine, designed by corrupt men for filthy lucre's sake. the standard of "it is written" was shoved down our throats not to make us better people, but to make us easier to control.

merry christmas and happy festivus to all! :wub: :jump: I had to stop saying shalom when I was in. so, SHALOM!

don't you remember Tom? WD is here to protect the Truth of twi's good name. I also am curious about which group WD is associated with. not that I plan on affiliating myself with ANY christian group. I just think the information would be useful for people wanting to avoid the same judgmental, unloving atmosphere that twi fostered.

Nero, I don't find WD boring yet... maybe in a couple of years I will, but I hope I'll still be around to defend others' rights to speak up at that point, instead of ignoring him and letting him bully them into silence. at this point he serves another service to me, and that is regaining some of the acuity of thought that withered away with neglect in twi. where I was required to swallow in twi, I can question and analyze here and everywhere else I'm privileged to go. where Bumpy and others find it boring, I find it educational. dooj, Tom, WW and many others have brought up erudite questions which WD has failed to address. the experience has helped me immensely in getting over my fear of people who push and bully their way into rightness.

there will be no justice in this lifetime, Bumpy. anyone who has spoken with lawyers over this stuff has had to face the hard truth. statutes of limitation apply, and events that occurred behind closed doors with people with selective memories insure that the truth is obscured. the only thing we've got is knowing we weren't alone in being victimized, and that it wasn't our fault as they had us convinced. as long as people keep telling us to shut up, they're not helping put the past behind where it belongs.... and a past in the past doesn't mean it's forgotten, either. I accept the fact that my ex abused me and my children and got the whole ministry involved in our lives to our great injury, it is what it is, and I still deal with the aftermath every day. it's the past, yes, but I don't know why I should consider it a secret or keep my mouth shut about it for fear of offending someone who can't stand the thought of someone being angry after being hurt. it's one of the stages of acceptance, it's going to happen and it might take more time than you're comfortable with, but so what? I don't see the point of hassling people over it. you do a lot of griping about people talking about their "supposed injuries", but what's your objective, really? what do you hope to achieve, or are you just whining?

now I'm starting to like you, john. this is the wisest thing I've ever read from you.

Bumpy, this is the About The Way forum. we can and will talk about our experiences in twi. I'm really glad I didn't let you drag me into your backbiting PM's about people who've had rough times, just cuz you think they shouldn't talk about things you don't like. if it annoys you so much, don't read! like I told WD, I don't post for him and I don't post for you. I post for people who've been through similar experiences and haven't found GS yet. I don't understand why you keep hanging around harrassing women who talk about their history if it includes having been abused, or why you're being so rude to rascal. you come across as a bully and a real jerk.

so, you're helping us? you want us to be honest because we're obviously mistaken in what we heard? and all you're doing is showing everyone how we've misinterpreted the teachings of the doctrines of twi as they came down from the top? you must be THE expert on intent then, since throwing cigarettes in a woman's face, telling parents to beat their child with a 2x4, and ignoring cases of physical abuse (even telling someone not to make a police report because the ministry would look bad) can't be taken as representative of twi's policy on domestic abuse? so great a cloud of witnesses who were taught, advised, and sometimes directly abused by leaders... and I myself only testified on my own experiences, not what others had told me, of a FC in Ohio chasing a woman around their apartment with his fist raised, like being told by a FC in Oregon that an abused woman asked for it because she was so bitchy to her sweet husband (who incidentally was a heavy drinker) and the RC who told me not to make a police report after my ex went on a violent tirade and who told ugly lies about people who disagreed with him, the RC who verbally abused a man in front of dozens of people for not standing up for him when he walked into a group of people hanging out, then worked him into his teaching to further humiliate him... there really isn't a way to convince anyone who's seen these things that twi didn't have a culture that accepted and promoted abuse, and that the abuse started at the top and trickled down wherever corruption existed.

in the areas I lived, that was what they did to everyone who left. I'm sorry that happened to you, brother P. Bear. I no longer believe the things that were said about anyone who left or was told to leave. I've seen the lies revealed too many times now.

irisheyes, very good point! unlike the people here, the writers of the new testament all knew each other, so their story is more suspect IMO. too much opportunity to fabricate consistent details. who's to say they just didn't make up the legend of Jesus to start their own religion? it's not on film. there are no documents from coroners or medical experts. just a bunch of stories from a bunch of guys who say they hung out with him, or who joined the religion later on.

oh wow, this made me laugh. I don't actually care what "they" think, something could be well documented and waybrainers will still call us liars. you're saying the group talking about leadership-condoned abuse have no integrity, nor do we care about truth, we're just speculating, relying on fuzzy memories, and guessing. well. good thing I don't share these things for people like you. I share them for the people who also went through them. if someone who's abused is always told it's their imagination or that they asked for it or are lying, it's tough to get healed. it's difficult enough to cope with the aftermath, and finding some understanding - at least for me - made all the difference in being able to GET OUT and get healed. so I really don't give a rat's arse for your delicate sensibilities.

it actually doesn't say it all, WD. I LEARNED to keep my mouth shut and not disagree. my desire for comfortable survival came when I had two small children to raise and leadership who wouldn't give me an inch of breathing room, and a husband in cahoots with them. escaping their notice meant I could keep things together enough to raise my kids. there was no changing it, so I protected myself and my kids the best I could til I could get out. so you're saying that if I made the scripture my own and that's what gave me strength at that time when I was fighting for my sanity, I can't NOT be a christian now at this present time? and if I'm not christian, I can't believe any scripture? methinks I see a logical fallacy.

of course they did, but since the bible doesn't explicitly say you can beat your wife they had to use their usual convoluted scripture build-up with stories from the OT. lots of smoke-screening, because doctrinally it's wrong... so, here goes... if a man beats his wife then he's not pleased to dwell with her, so she's off the hook if he leaves but ONLY IF HE LEAVES. she can't leave. another story pulled into the fray was the one of Nabal and Abigail... oh what a wonderful woman Abigail was because she was faithful to her man in spite of his cruelty to her! women could ONLY get blessed if they had their marriage relationship in order, so no matter how much of an foot the man was or what he did to her, she should not break her vows. as far as I remember, the only excuse for leaving is if the violence was life-threatening, otherwise, you just stay and become ever more virtuous and God will reward you and you'll inspire that man to be a loving husband. HA! mine was just inspired to be a couch potato and take credit for my work. whatever. even on my way out the door leadership was using scripture to try to get me to stay with him. I don't even remember what, now. it was just ridiculous.

WD, if you consider what we say just our opinion, why does it bother you so much that we speak? amongst the group that actually experienced this stuff, it's more than an opinion and you actually don't HAVE to comment when we share our experiences. why are you compelled to lecture whenever someone didn't take appropriate action in YOUR opinion?

context, john. it might be funny elsewhere, just not here.