Billy D

I know that it's been a while since this was originally posted; however, I felt that I should chime in. I suffered from clinical depression and social anxiety disorder for several years in my early-to-mid 20's. I was on medication for a few years and underwent individual and group therapy. In my case, the medications I took made me feel worse than I did before I started to take them. It got so bad that I did a lot of research online and eventually weaned myself off of the meds. I was able to keep my head above water by being open and honest about my struggles and having close friends who helped and encouraged me. All of this happened before I was a Christian. In May of 2002 I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior and soon after went through one of the most difficult and harrowing experiences of my life. I was able to make it through this time without a return to my past episodes of depression and social anxiety, and I know for a fact that my hope and trust in Jesus Christ was the single most important factor. Was I possessed? Who knows? I did a decent amount of drugs in college, studied black magic, listened to overtly demonic music - basically opened myself up to a lot of nasty spiritual influence. Was I healed by a single prayer or by a "healer?" No, but I DO believe that my depression could have had a spiritual root and WAS healed by my Lord Jesus Christ. In 5 years I have not struggled with depression, and though I occasionally experience social anxiety, it is very mild and does not negatively affect my life. In fact, most people would be FLOORED to know that I have had such struggles in the past. I do know firsthand of someone who was healed of drug addiction through intercessory prayer. However, I do not think that all drug addicts should be prayed over and turned loose without treatment, and I ABSOLUTELY do not believe in the "Believing" model of TWI. The fact is that some cases of depression/mental illness COULD have a spiritual root and could have a spiritual "cure." There are AMPLE examples of miraculous healings (I know of several myself), and yet there are ample examples of people who prayed for years and were never healed. I can't answer why some are healed and some aren't. Science can't even help/heal everyone. I do agree that it is completely wrong to shame someone or to use their illness against him/her. I agree that it is irresponsible to pray over someone and encourage him/her to "believe" past an illness without also encouraging the person to pursue a medical solution as well. The fact is that it just isn't that black and white. Hope this benefits the discussion. Thanks! ~BD

Just curious - what do you mean by "looks like rhetoric looks holy?" I'm not following you. Thanks!

I would vote "None of the above." What about this: Remove him/her from office. If a criminal offense has occurred, pursue with criminal justice system. Whether or not #2 applies, pray for all involved (including offender) to be delivered/healed. Pursue restoration of trust/relationships in whatever way appropriate. As a community trying to model the love of Christ, gather around offender and encourage him/her to repent of behavior, account/pay restitution to offended parties, and enter into treatment/accountability as necessary. If he/she repents and demonstrates change of behavior, do not re-insert into position of leadership! Rather, allow him/her to serve in humble fashion like MOST people!! Do not allow back into position of authority unless he/she meets biblical requirements to be a deacon/elder/leader/etc and demonstrates ability to treat others with decency and love of Christ. .....or something like that. My point: whatever is done should demonstrate the love of Christ, and should include repentance, accountability, and some sort of restitution. I don't think that anyone (even the "founder" of a church/ministry/group) should just be forgiven and left in office, thereby given the perfect opportunity to repeat the offense/behavior. Nope, let 'em set up chairs, rake leaves, serve out of the spotlight in humility until they prove that they can play nice and treat others with dignity and love!! ...and rascal, if "leaders" aren't needed, or unbiblical, how do you explain Hebrews 13:7 7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. and Hebrews 13:17 17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. This is an obvious indication that we can and should submit to men as well as to Jesus Christ. Your thoughts? Thanks all! BD

I'd like to qualify something here. There is no money going directly from CES/STF coffers to pay for the filing/defense of these lawsuits, as they have been made to the individuals and not the ministry itself. Now, I suppose you could make an argument that there is money being used indirectly, since staff salaries are paid from contributions. However, neither John Lynn nor Dan Gallager are on paid staff. Jeff Blackburn is on paid staff, but I know first hand that he's not using "ministry" money to pay for his defense. So, to any CES/STF contributors/partners reading this thread: though this situation has given you ample reason to question your decision to sew financially into CES/STF, the money you send in is not being used fight lawsuits. As many have said before me: if you're unsure or have any questions, call the home office (317-255-6189) and speak up! In regard to the earmarking issue - this has been looked at in the past and has been instituted in some aspects. I'm sure after the dust settles there will be MUCH more in place at CES/STF in terms of accountability, financially and otherwise. At least, I hope so! Thanks! BillyD

They have retained a lawyer and he has written the letters and filed the suit.

Sort of, but he's not supported by that money, to my knowledge. He has stepped way back from where he's been in the past. I dunno....I knew of "things" going on b/t him and Elizabeth, but it was all top secret and I definitely was fed the G/R end of it. I'm so sad about it and just sickened thinking about what really went on, right under my nose (with people hinting at the truth but me not wanting to believe it). Then the sights were turned on my wife - now THAT woke me up. Every day I ask God to help me to stand in integrity and love, and I ask Him to help me sort out the conflicted feelings I have for people I genuinely love and care for....but am so disappointed in. I'm sure the same can be said for me....I am human after all and oh so aware of it. :) ~B

lol :P

Howdy Milfred! Interesting - two of those shots look as though they were taken from someone driving by the building. Were you so scared of the evil cult members inside that you couldn't even stop the car and take a clear picture??? Jesting aside....why post these pictures? What's the point? ~B

I lost track of this thread for a while, but while scanning I noticed this post. Just so that you ALL know: JAL is NOT paid by STF or supported by donations to STF in ANY way. He's spent the past few years building an SAT prep business and it's successful enough to support him fully. He doesn't even travel and live "from the can" as an official ambassador for STF. Most of the travelling he does now is to spend time with his daughter, son-in-law, and his grandchildren. Just thought I'd clear that up. And please note: this is only a specific response to clarify an incorrect statement and NOT an endorsement of everything CES/STF/JAL/BOD/etc/etc. Thanks! ~B

Whoa...hold on there sprawled! Assumption alert! And you know what they say about assumptions.... Honestly, who are you to assume that I believe I'm "thinking 'spiritually' and [am] therefore right???" Have I ever said as much on this board, or do you just lump me in that category because VPW or CM or JAL or MG, etc, etc, etc have spouted such nonsense? Sorry, but that's not my bag. Nope, instead I spoke against a blanket generalization (or so it was written, though Hamm has since defined the true target of his comment) with information that I PERSONALLY KNOW to be true. How many DIRECT and PERSONAL experiences of this specific situation do you have, particularly with the people who just went back to work for CES/STF? Let me know. In fact, all of my posts here at GSC have been to respond to blanket generalizations/accusations which I know (from personal experience) to be false. Have I made any claim that CES/STF is God's chosen ministry, that it's perfect, that it's "leaders" are infallible Men/Women of God and should therefore be followed like the pied piper??? Nope! If you must know, I definitely feel like the proverbial scales have been lifted from my eyes since this topic opened up, and I'm willing hold to account anyone (including myself) who needs to be. Like many of you, I am praying that God's light will shine on and expose EVERY bit of evil, and I'm waiting to see what will come of all of this. And finally, my ONLY "religious allegiance" is to God and Jesus Christ. Period. I swear allegiance to no man or ministry. Thanks for your time!! ~B

C'mon Hamm....do you even know who you're talking about? The majority of those recently unemployed as a result of this fiasco are not "prophets," have never claimed to be, and would never "scour the countryside for sustenance" or recognition. They're normal people like you and me who work hard and lead decent lives. I should know - one of them is my wife (who is happily employed elsewhere now). I personally know two of the people who have gone back to work at the CES/STF home office and they left good, SECULAR jobs to do so. They're aware of (and deeply convicted by) the glaring problems, but instead of running away, they've decided to stay, fight, and be a part of the solution. And in reference to the questions about the status of the lawsuits, Mark still being listed as president on the website, etc.... Unfortunately, much of this has now become fodder for the legal system, and therefore many people are shutting their mouths lest they be sued, or if they are already being sued they're keeping things tight lipped at the suggestion of a lawyer. Can't say I blame them. Not sure why the website hasn't been updated; however, I do know that the webmaster - Ryan - is a full time college student and has plenty to do. My point: I know that the state of the website is not the result of an effort by CES/STF "leadership" to keep things hush hush. Holy Smoke: I appreciate what you've spoken on this thread. Instead of throwing blanket accusations and making assumptions, you've used reason and (from what I know) your assessment of the situation is closer than anything else I've seen on here. Final note: from what I know, the prophetic council was disbanded by the Gs back in the fall when some of the members began to question some of the "prophetic input" being used in the Board disagreement (specifially the stuff being used to justify MG not stepping down). Lots of talk about the prophetic and how it's been taught/used in CES/STF within the community....not sure where it will end up, but at least the dialog has started. Thanks all! ~B

Garth, What exactly did I do to you to deserve such a snide remark? I've heard some pretty nasty things in this thread, and your little barb is one of the worst. Please re-read my post. Slowly. If you do, you'll see that I was responding to the allegation that the CES/STF board "never worked a day in their life." That's it. How is that an attempt to "whitewash your 'Men of God's' reputations???" I was simply responding to a LIE with fact. I said NOTHING about the rest of the accusations/information that has been "laid at their feet." And also, if you would read my posts with an open mind instead of instantly assuming you know what I think and/or feel, I have no background in TWI, so the whole "Man of God" nonsense is meaningless to me. In my opinion, ANYONE who believes in God and Jesus Christ (whether the believe in the trinity or not) is a man/woman of God, and NO better or worse than any other man/woman of God. Please remove the mote from your eye and show me some kindness and respect. For the record, I am upset and shocked by what I've read here and by what I've personally experienced basically since April. My wife was booted from the home office staff by a board member, for goodness sake. How do you think I feel?? So please don't assume that I'm somehow leaping to the defense of my "Men of God" and excusing what they've done. I was simply confronting a specific LIE. Period. God bless you, and I earnestly hope that you have a Merry Christmas. In fact, I hope that you all have a Merry Christmas. Though some of the things said here have been just as hurtful as what you're judging others to have done, I can forgive you and I know our Lord will if you ask Him to. Thank you. ~B

Better check your facts before you make a statement like this: JAL: has been running an SAT prep business in the "real world" for the past 2+ years, NOT living on donations or on CES payroll Dan: built several construction businesses and is now semi-retired G&K T: G is a doctor & K is a counselor - been working and serving in their community faithfully for MANY years TomR: runs a mortgage business Mark & JS are the only Board members who haven't worked in the "real world" recently, HOWEVER, both have worked in the "real world" in the past. Regardless, all board positions are volunteer - Mark & JohnS are paid because they're considered CES staff members, not because they are board members. Just making sure this is straight. Please stop accusing these people of not working a day in their lives. Thank you, B

Actually doojable, that was right on the money. Thanks for sharing.

Belle, Regardless of your previous experience, the fact is that you weren't there. I was. In fact, for two years I posted all of the checks!!! No one is driving around in a $50,000 new car, no one has a personal assistant, and there are no Board "retreats" in the Bahamas. The workers have benefits (vacation time, excellent health coverage, etc), and, until the latest bit of insanity, have been taken care of. Here's the reason I'm so insistant on setting the facts straight here: though you experienced one thing with TWI, you dishonor many honest, hard working people (including me) by insisting that "someone" is getting rich off of the money that is sent to CES/STF. And your argument that "those who are really helping people aren't asking for money" just doesn't hold water. My wife currently works for a non-profit agency that is able to direct at least 85% of what they "ask" for directly toward services. Here's their link - check them out: www.littlereddoor.org. My point: please don't make blanket accusations and hold judgements when you don't REALLY know the truth. Now, I'm not naive enough to think that CES/STF has operated at the height of efficiency, and if there have been abuses they are more a minority than a majority. If you or someone else presents FACTS that prove otherwise, I'll gladly eat crow. Until then, I'll fight for the people I know have worked their butts off for the sole purpose of helping people and making a difference in this crazy world. Belle, my experience of you on this board has been predominantly positive. My involvement in the "mess" at CES has given me a taste of what many went through in TWI - particularly in the character assasination of my wife. My heart is not to attack you personally, but to encourage an honest examination of the facts and not judgements based on past hurts. Another related clarification (not to you, Belle, but in general): though JAL lived out of the "can" for many years, he's spent the past few years building a very successful SAT prep business. So much for those who believe he's never worked a day in his life. In fact, he's one of the hardest working people I know. ~B

Garth, As dmiller already pointed out, you clearly are taking my words out of context. For the record: I in no way condone the way that Elizabeth Lynn was treated. As with many people involved with STF, a lot of this is news to me - particularly the "prophetic input." When I say that I praise God for anyone who works as Christ's ambassador, I assume that they are living and treating people in accordance to Christ's command: to love. I do not consider what certain members of TWI and CES/STF did to be working as Christ's ambassadors - rather, if these allegations are true, it is clear to me that they are NOT working as Christ's ambassadors and are therefore not worthy of ANYONE'S praise! Anyone who treats someone in such an abusive manner is NOT doing the work of God. I will pray for them regardless, because Christ commands us to love and pray for our enemies as well as those who love us. I said that I am personally involved in this situation - the "Rachel C" who was fired from STF is my wife. I will say that we are equally disgusted with what we have learned and experienced over the past few months. However, I repeat that I will not go into specifics here. If you want to know, private message me, or contact me directly if you know who I am. Thanks! BillyD

Belle et al, Let me also set a few things straight. I'm pretty much just a lurker here and have only posted a few times, but some of the comments prompted me to chime in in this discussion. I am a former employee of CES/STF (notice I didn't use "STFI" - many of us have avoided using STFI because of the often juvenile responses to it. Bummer - call me naive, but I really hoped that most decent human beings would be above such childishness). I resigned for personal reasons about a year ago, and before any of you assume otherwise: it was fully my decision and was NOT coerced, and I have been on good terms with the Board and others and have participated in several events since. That being said - I take issue to your last comment Belle, particularly your (and others in this string and in the past) insinuation that people are asking for money and/or selling merchandise in order to personally profit from it. Last time I checked, CES/STF is a 401c3 NON PROFIT organization, and though us staffers (including Mark Graeser & John Schoenheit) were paid employees, NONE of us were getting rich with other people's money. The money that was and is still sent to that little office in Indianapolis was (and still is) funneled right back into the publications, conferences, etc. It is well known that a job at CES/STF is NOT a path to monetary riches!! I'll also note that the members of the BOD are NOT paid - they are volunteers, with the exception of Mark Graeser and John Schoenheit, who are founders and are paid staff members. Personally, I praise God for ANYONE who works as Christ's ambassador, regardless of how they choose to do it. But does that mean that it's wrong to pray for Billy Graham's ministry, CES/STF, CFF, or the church on the corner because they ask for money or are in the public spotlight? In the end, we need to pray for EVERYONE who tirelessly and selflessly does great things for God & God's people, regardless of the scale, and regardless of whether they build houses for a living or help run a Christian ministry for a living. Also, in regard to the post about the lack of Jesus Christ on the STF website: I do not have a TWI background and was therefore not exposed to the "absent Christ" teaching. However, I can assure you that everyone I know who is affiliated with STF (including the BOD and home fellowship leaders), loves and worships the LIVING Christ. Yes, developing a relationship with the Lord is tough for many ex-Wayfers, but many are breaking out of the old mold and are growing closer to Him every day. I personally would have nothing to do with a church/ministry that does not recognize and encourage a daily, personal walk with Jesus Christ. Now, is that manifested in the lives of those who are affiliated with CES/STF? Yes and no, depending on the individual....which is no different that what you would find in the "mainstream" church down the street. Trust me, I know - I go to one! Finally, I will readily acknowledge that CES/STF (like the Way, from what I understand) has not placed a large emphasis on helping to feed the poor, care for the less privileged, etc. However, CES/STF was founded as a teaching ministry and only recently began to function as more of a full "church." I agree that we have a lot to learn about what it means to be a church, and that proper doctrinal teaching is only a piece of that pie. I am personally convicted that I need to do more in my community - though we need to teach the truth of God's Word, we also need to reach out and LOVE others as Christ did. I will not comment specifically about the current situation in the ministry, though I am personally involved. If you want to know what I have to say, contact me. If you care and have a personal investment in CES/STF: pray, seek the truth, and compare what you hear from others to God's Word. Thanks, and God bless!

Very well voiced mj. You just described the John Lynn I know today. He's far from perfect, but I'm proud to work with him and for the ministry he helped to start. Danny: Good point on the apparent contradiction w/Momentus. I'm not sure about that one. Though I work with John and am pretty close to him today, I can't really tell you his heart exactly. I can only share my experience of him. :)--> ~Billy

Danny, Thanks for being willing to look at it from my perspective, I appreciate that. John actually gave an answer to your question in his first post here at Greasespot. He apparently feels that he doesn't have the time or doesn't want to take the time to invest here. And though John has thus far declined to post here on a regular basis, he did publicly publish his personal cell phone number and email address. So, anyone here who has a beef with John can contact him directly, which, by the way, is supported by scripture. (Matt 18:15-17) Do I understand the desire to see John publicly apologize and account to this specific forum? Of course I do. However I also know that John as been accounting for some of the junk from TWI (and for some of the mistakes he's made since then) in other venues and to many people for years, so I can also see why he wouldn't necessarily see the need to do it again here. I encourage anyone here who was personally hurt by John in TWI to contact him. You may find him to be quite changed from those days, but that's for you to decide. Thanks for hearing me out! ~B

Danny, I'm quite saddened that you have to automatically take a cheap shot at John, and at Jeff's expense, no less. Even if you meant no "personal offense," doesn't your inference assume that Jeff would let himself basically be used by John? Isn't it possible that Jeff posted the article on his own without any directive from John Lynn, or anyone else for that matter? Or is it just assumed that Jeff is just a "yes" man for Lynn, Schoenheit & Graeser? For the record: John wrote the article specifically for the website and Jeff's decision to post it here was entirely his own. He posted it here because he hoped that it would bless some of you and challenge your current belief in/practice of the manefestation of tongues w/interpretation. Despite what is often assumed in these forums, we STF/CES staff members are encouraged to form our own opinions and make our own decisions and are NOT at the mercy of an overbearing Board of Directors, overbearing leadership, OR corporate lawyers! And also for the record, I'm not writing in John's defense. Rather, I'm personally offended when it is assumed that Jeff (or any other person on staff with or affiliated with STF/CES) is simply a front man serving John Lynn's personal agenda. It's simply not true. Happy posting and God bless! ~Billy D

Hey all! Just a quick note to say thank you to everyone who responded to my post. I'll respond to each of you individually next week, as I'll be out of town until Monday. Just didn't want anyone to think that I was afraid to run the gauntlet! :)-->

Greetings everyone and God bless! My name is Billy Darr, and like many here I've been sitting back taking in the response to John Lynn's post. I wasn't going to chime in at first, but in light of some of what has been said here I thought I could shed some light on a few things. At the risk of instantly discounting myself and my perspective with all of you, I will let you know that I work at the CES/Spirit & Truth home office in Indianapolis. I am 30 years old and had no affiliation with or knowledge of The Way International before my involvement with this ministry (though I can assure you that the past two years I have received quite an education in all of the good and bad associated with TWI. And, for the record, I tend to see a bit more bad than good.) I'm not here to try and "recruit" any of you to check us out. You're all grown adults and can make your own decisions. I am also not here to defend John Lynn, who is quite capable of defending himself if he sees fit. I AM here to debunk some unfair and borderline slanderous things that have been said on this and other boards. I take particular issue with such comments such as: Sartori "Dartanian, I'm sure CES lawyers (in other words, his "handlers"), sharing his own fears, have forbidden (FORBIDDEN) him to communicate here any further. Imagine the potential loss of revenue should he go on record (truthfully or not), and his in-CES'd-uous followers get passing wind of it.." Sartori, perhaps you're basing your assumptions on the way things were handled in TWI (which I'm assuming would also be the reason for the various comments made by others about John's "badge" and his suits), but that's not the way things are handled with this ministry. We have and will continue to seek legal advice when needed, but we neither have a lawyer nor a legal team on staff. And John (or anyone else in this ministry) is certainly not at the mercy of some legal "handler" who is only concerned about the financial bottom line. Some have painted a picture of STFI/CES as a group of ex-Way folks blindly following their favorite superstars John Lynn, John Schoenheit & Mark Graeser. Though many of the people associated with this ministry are ex-TWI, most of the new people who find us via our various methods of outreach are COMPLETELY independent of TWI. They have been in denominational churches for years and have seen the holes in the practices and doctrines, studied the Bible for themselves, found us, and have liked what we have to offer. If what we're teaching is just "rehashed VPW teaching," why are others who have NEVER heard of VPW OR his teachings coming to us and saying "you teach EXACTLY what I've believed for years?" Also, for the record, since the "Way days," John Schoenheit has completed coursework at Reformed Theological Seminary in North Carolina, and Mark Graeser is currently a Master's student at Earlham School of Religion in Richmond, IN. I guess that debunks the myth that "LGS" are simply stuck in their old Way teachings and unwilling to check out courses of academic study. I'm very blessed that this place exists, though I'm often frustrated by the bitterness, cynicism, and anger that I see unleashed here. I'm not under the impression that STFI/CES has no skeletons in the closet - we're human after all - but I can honestly say that the people I work with every day (both paid and volunteer) do their best to honor Jesus Christ and serve His Body. It upsets me to see so many good, hard working people be completely dishonored by a few who don't know better. Now you know. There's much, much more to say, but I'll sign off for now. Thanks for hearing me out. Love in Christ, Billy Darr