Holy Smoke

Thank you, those who understood that I am not saying it is entirely the abused person's fault. It is difficult -- if not impossible -- when you are in that abusive and painful situation to look from the outside and get a clear picture. It's terrible that some people were so hurt. I agree that beliefs were skewed. I think that pride is running rampant. No one wants to admit "I was blind." None of us should ever expect any leader to be above or beyond getting off track. We should be keeping our eyes on Jesus and no one else. Everyone else -- even "fit" leaders -- will eventually disappoint us.

So... Sanguinetti... are you saying that JAL still does not see that these prophecies were misinterpreted? I would think with his letter coming out exposing MG and KAG that he would be apologizing to Elizabeth by now for letting these things take such a place of prominence and allowing it to overshadow God's written Word and JAL's own vows. The Bible speaks of personal prophecy many times. (Nathan to David, Agabus to Paul) You cannot throw the whole concept out the window because of someone who has twisted or abused it. However, I do think in this case it was abused. This happens with other things as well -- baptism as a "work", tongues as the "only evidence" of new birth, etc. Abuse of biblical evidences, sacraments, etc. doesn't mean they are inherently bad fruit. The bad fruit comes from people who abuse them, and people who LET THEMSELVES be abused.

Hey, I just perused another site for a "fallen minister." What if CES posted something like this (which I copied from the site): "In {date}, we were made aware that **** had become an alcoholic. In {date}, we became aware that (((( is a practicing homosexual. When confronted with the evidence of these sinful practices, (((( admitted to them and agreed to a process of restoration which the ### of us would oversee. However, because (((( has continued to drink and pursue immoral practices, and after having exhausted the first two steps of the Matthew 18:15-17 process, we now have a responsibility to bring this before the church. We also want to apologize to the body of Christ for our part in promoting and elevating ((((’s stature in the church while having these significant strongholds in his/her life. The signs that these problems existed were abundant, and we had an obvious lack of discernment and failed to see them until this year. We have received a considerable education through this situation, the principles of which we will share in due time with the hope that others will not have to make our same mistakes." That's pretty gutsy, I'd say! And very humble and honest. -- HS

Well, guys... all I can tell you is that I have over 20 years of PR Communications experience and companies / orgs don't bring up lawsuits in official documents until they are settled or dismissed. Period. What if MG and KAG have a change of heart and drop that suit? If they do, then those around the world who have not heard of this are not shaken by it. Lessons learned, changes made, life goes on. It's like my divorce.... If my husband and I had not told our relatives all our dirt, we'd probably still be together. As it was, we told them, and then our relatives took sides, interfered, etc. Insanity ensued! A certain amount of privacy is for the best in these situations. I truly understand you were once betrayed and things were hidden, so now you are skeptical. I also believe in honesty, but first to the invested constituents, and carefully, with few and gracious words so as to not disparage another. Then -- to outside spectators. This order of things is slow but wise. If you are a CES Partner, you have been invited to call and talk personally. Do it.

Thanks for the instructions. OK, I see the letter has dropped already. I think the letter was gracious and honest, as much as could be said when facing a lawsuit. Frankly, to acknowledge the situation and express grief is all that should be expected under the circumstances. There are some organizations that are so arrogant they will not even do that! Changes to website are behind schedule due to short staff but I think there may be legal issues to consider as well. There may be some sort of "restraining order" on existing materials until the suit is settled or dismissed. I think some former staff will be re-hired, if possible. My speculation (I don't know this) is that the Prophetic Council will disband, if it hasn't already.

Note to self: Be careful what you ask for. It may be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I'd tell you what I know if someone will tell me how to get my picture to show under my name. It's in my profile, but why doesn't it show up here? I know... it's a CONSPIRACY!!! Thanks - HS

Sure, Christ can raise the dead (phycially or psychologically). PTL! I mean that if we approach the Word with a Pharisee (or otherwise screwed-up) mentality -- let's memorize this, let's club people with that -- and not a heart for God or people, there is no change. No healing, no humility, no sincere apologies - you can forget all that. What you get are arrogant, paranoid delusions of grandeur. (hence, back to the sticky) In fact, you get a real potential for damage, because the understanding and compassion is not there. I think that legalistic, damage history is what most of us here have in common. ??? Those who changed in gospels and Acts were those who were either convinced by signs and wonders (maybe blinded like Saul) or like Nicodemus (sp) and Lazarus simply had a heart for God and loved Jesus. Those who did not believe were not lacking in a knowledge or hearing of Scripture... they'd read it countless times! Reading or hearing it was not the issue. They didn't know Jesus. Likewise, just reading scriptures today is not enough to bring healing to some people. I think hearts (psyches) usually have to be plowed up and ready before the Word can truly be heard or fully understood or applied in a person's life. Parable of the sower.... Not sayin Christ can't raise up corn out of a rock. I'm just saying that would be a miraculous exception. Hope that clarifies. Thanks for reading!

BTW, Bumpy, I really enjoyed your screenplay. - HS :) Esp. the white dress and the roller skates.

Therebutforgreace, hi. I agree with you and that's what I was trying to say in my post. That forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. Forgiveness is about the past; trust is about the future. When forgiveness truly takes place, we should not continually bring up past wrongs or try to find fault with the person who is truly trying to regain trust. We don't blindly follow those people, but IMO we keep out eyes and ears open, our mouths shut and let them stand or fall on their new realizations and accountability. If we say we will NEVER trust someone again (like I have heard said), without giving them the time to change, heal, etc... then we freeze people in time. We then totally negate the gospel because that is what the gospel is all about -- changing and transforming people! That being said, I do believe in the basics of psychology, not defined as "man's wisdom" but as it pertains to the legitimate study of the brain and the mind. I know we have some quacks and abuse of psychiatric drugs, etc. out there. But God created the psyche, just like he created the physiology of our bodies. I would recommend "Healing Life's Deepest Hurts" by Dr. Ed Smith, a pastoral counselor, who combines basic psychological principles with prayer and heart healing from God's Word. It works. But if people are just reading God's word with a screwed up mind -- that doesn't work. Yeah, I may start another thread on that later, gracias.

Hey, Wordwolf. How in the world can you insinuate to me I'm being rude when something like the above -- IN CAPITAL LETTERS< NO LESS -- is written to Bumpy who was absolutely NOT being condescending, but was simply expressing his opinion and observation? I can make an observation about people in this cafe. I'm allowed, and so is Bumpy. Sometimes newcomers have a different way of seeing things.

Bumpy -- Don't pay any attention to Tom Strange. He is WAY too sensitive. You're right. So what DO people want? I think we all want people who don't take themselves too seriously. That's what's compelling about the GSCafe. But ironically, we do want them to be serious enough to be held accountable and humble enough to suck it up when they get off base. Which goes back to the initial post on this thread....leaders overestimating themselves. The thing is... when people get off base, it's hard to respond in love yet with firm boundaries. It's hard to say, "I disagree, I think that is hurtful, and I love you but I cannot trust you right now." Our tendency is to deride, file harrassment, defamation suits and call for people's head on a stick. What if KG came on this site and apologized to everyone here? Not some half-*** apology, but a real contrite accounting of wrongs? Would it be accepted? I seriously doubt it. Why? Because lots of people don't know the difference between forgiveness (letting it go) and trust (keeping healthy boundaries). Excuse me, if that is too psychological for some of you who don't believe in psychology. Tonto -- so did you stay home and watch Bonanza or Lone Ranger? I had to miss Bionic Woman on Wednesday nights, and Disney on Sunday nights. Bummer.

Hey guys, this is Newcomer. I changed my name... All I can say is that "problem held in abeyance" cracked me up. My Wafer boyfriend really impressed me with that "abeyance" word once upon a time, in a nightmare far, far away...

I tried to update my profile. We'll see if it works.... Good point, 1broken1. Rebuke publicly -- I think the context of that passage means within the church community. I don't think leaders are obligated to do an international media blitz, press release, website rebuke for the outside world to read. Unless, of course, you're talking about Ted Haggard and his gay affair! The more public the figure, the more shocking the sin -- the more public rebuke & repentance is warranted. Also, what if your ousted elder has retained attorney? It may be that CES is being advised by some "no comment" lawyer to be very careful and deliberate with their words to avoid a greater dilemma.

Satori001 - Some dreams are from God. It's all through the Bible and prophesied for our time (Acts 2). I keep a dream journal bec/ I've had these dreams my whole life, my father had them and my grandmother had them. They come true. Two days or two years later -- they come true, in very vivid detail. My grandmother used to say, "That's the end of my dream!" when I would tell her something that happened that day. She had already dreamed it. Maybe sometimes it's my subconscious picking up on subtleties my conscious mind wants to deny. But when you dream about something happening in a certain place, people having certain hair color and mannerisms, and someone you've never met wearing the same darn pantsuit in your dream that they are wearing two weeks later when you meet them, someone saying "My name is _____, and then you meet that person 2 years later --- that's from GOD! There is simply no other explanation. That being said, yes, we have to be careful what dreams we project onto others. It has to line up with God's Word. This is where people can get out of whack.

Well.... okay I agree with that. But several things. Headline making: This isn't. It just isn't. Greasespot Cafe is one of the slickest websites I've ever seen, and my hat's off to the creator, but it isn't media headlines. Apologies: I think apologies are for face-to-face. I don't think website apologies are appropriate in any situation. Talk about impersonal. Yes, I think apologies to certain individuals are due. And I think explanations to constituents are due via mail or phone. Not a website. Prophecies: I do think we have current day prophecy and prophets. I myself have prophetic dreams, so I keep a dream journal. I've had dreams come true -- right down to the outfit someone was wearing! -- two days to six years later. But I know the difference immediately when I wake up whether it was a significant dream (from God. and I write those down), a dream from my own subconcious to help ME process things in life, or just jumbled up junk from the office. Keep it coming. I love the honesty here! And the humor!

Hey, guys. I just listened to Belle's audio interview. It seems that some of you think that guilting someone into doing something is endemic to TWI or CES. I can tell you that it's not. This is classic in every denomination! I had to be at church 3x a week or more when growing up. If my family went on vacation, we had to take a little "communion kit" if we were going to be in the mountains on a Sunday, cuz we had to have that communion cracker and grape juice or my mother would die. Just this week (FF 40 years) I read the bulletin from my mother's church. It was about how to forsake the assembly of the saints -- even if you had unexpected company from out of state or there was a severe blizzard -- was a sin. When talking to my Mother over the weekend, she said there was a benefit for a young man who needed a liver transplant, but they couldn't go bec/ the weather was bad. But did they go to church in the same bad weather? #&$(*#)@, yeah, they did! Now I ask you... which event would Jesus attend? Drives me nuts. NC

Ham, I'm curious. To whom would they need to apologize via the website? And who is harrassing them that they would want to "leave them alone"? (besides the people on this board, whom I'm sure they could care less about) Yes, I would think taking something off a website that is controversial is SOP for any org. In fact, legal and PR counsel may have required it in this instance. NC

Hey, sprawled. You're right, "woundedness" is not in the dictionary, but from the context, we can assume it means a state of being wounded. I don't know what JAL was referring to, what KAG's "wound" was or is. I was abused at age 4, grew up memorizing Bible -- "committed to a way of thinking" as you said -- and never told anyone about that abuse until I was FORTY YEARS OLD! of course, by that time, that abuse had wormed its way into my core and due to my own denial and thinking I could just "be strong and get over it" and "hey, I'm not a victim' without ever grieving it, well, it was the devil's foothold. It was the root motivator of many stupid decisions and rationalizations. Believe me, a "way of thinking" does not heal a person's heart and soul, no matter how long one does it. It is head knowledge, which I believe someone else on this board duly noted as "puffing up.' So maybe KAG was looking for her healing in ways that got twisted and turned into control and manipulation, which is based in insecurity. I am purely speculating, and it doesn't make control freaks right. They are wrong. But I'm just saying our society has really become intolerant of wounded souls and those who need time and permission to grieve. Like people here are venting (translation: grieving) over old TWI wounds. Grieving here is certainly better than making someone else miserable. Back in the old days, people wore black armbands for a year after a family member died. It was a sign of mourning and respect and people respected it. Now, we tell people to "get over it" in a few days and get back to work, what's the matter with you? Compassion has gone by the wayside. What's super-hard is to be compassionate to someone who is a total jackass and personally betrayed you. For those people, we can be compassionate yet still maintain our good sense and boundaries. I think a lot of folks here have learned that. Vaya con Dios. NC

Hey there, waterbuffalo. I did not mean to offend you. You inferred that I meant everyone posting here is wounded, and you inferred incorrectly that by using that term I was judging you and everyone else. I did not use the word judge in my comments, although I did warn about gossip and I don't apologize for that. My original post was addressing the questions in the beginning of the thread about spiritual equilibrium and woundedness. Sure, I'm wounded. Strict fundamental religious upbringing, sexual abuse, miscarriage, barrenness, divorce... I can tell you all about woundedness... and healing. So when I said wounded, I meant either those who in many of these posts were (self-admittedly) wounded back in the past or they perhaps still are wounded, which is apparent by the tone of one's words. That being said, I appreciate your point about the usefulness of anonymous forums in order to share feelings and gain perspective and "undo" whatever you have to undo. By your own post, you confirm that there are many wounded coming here for help. I was not in TWI, but I know all about it, because yes, I am pretty well-read and I know several people who were in TWI and have heard it all from various angles. But do you mean, that since I'm new and have acknowledged some woundedness expressed by many posters here, that I have to "set a spell" and cannot express my opinion? I thought that the moderator of this board told me I could express my opinion like you can. So lighten up on me, okay? I guess I'll have to stick with Newcomer until I think of something more creative. Can I use that word, creative? (One ex-TWI person told me only God was creative. Oy vey!)

"Waking the Dead" is a book by John Eldredge about how the renewed heart - in conjunction with a renewed mind -- is critical for living with compassion. "Create in me a pure and contrite heart" as King David said. That kind of stuff. It's about waking the zombie dead, well-meaning Christians who are bored or disillusioned with church. His website is called Ransomed Heart. But that did make me laugh about it not being VP. :-) I don't remember what the original 2 questions were.... Newcomer

Hello, wounded posters and God bless you. Yes, you can be a Christian for years and still have woundedness. It's illustrated in the Pharisees. They believed, knew the word of God in their minds, but not in their hearts. Woundedness leads to hard hearts and lack of compassion. People have to be open to physical or emotional healing before it can occur. You see this borne out in the gospels. Jesus even asked a couple people, "Do you want to be healed?" Seems like a dumb question, but obviously some don't think they need it or truly want it. Their woundedness is a crutch. Still, even if something is a crutch, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist and drive motives and actions, usually subconsciously without the person ever realizing it. I would recommend reading "Healing Life's Deepest Hurts" or "Waking the Dead" or "Hurt People Hurt People." Simply memorizing scriptures doesn't heal the psyche. That is a supernatural occurance. Also, you can be born from above and still not "get it." Case in point: Peter -- God was gracious enough to show him the vision about the sheet with the unclean animals to illustrate the point about eating with the Gentiles. As far as the players at the helm at CES, yes, mistakes were made. Egos blinded good judgment. Obviously some things were handled poorly, and some folks twisted some things in the Word to suit themselves. Objectivity and humility is still lacking in several areas. And forums like these give people a place to vent and process, express disappointment, say "I told ya so" and try to get facts, although I think more gossip is being relayed here than facts. You and I will be held accountable for "every idle word" on that Great Day. Think about it. Meanwhile, I lift up a prayer for all those who love Christ and want to live for him, but who have strayed or become blinded or hard-hearted, and for those who have been hurt to be comforted, to see these people as Christ sees them, and eventually to forgive as God has forgiven them and just let it go. Newcomer