Estimated Prophet

Thanks for taking the time to provide

such a thoughtful and detailed response Chockful.

I don't think we are too far apart in our views and

appreciate having my blind spots pointed out.

(to a degree...!!)

Yes, I do have my judgments and that is not necessarily wrong.

I also believe it is Jesus Christ motivating my expression here,

but like any other person I may be mistaken.

At first I honestly saw little profit in airing out the junk from so long ago.

However, from following the dialogs I can see it has brought resolution to many hearts.

I think the passage of time has helped bring about a healthy ability to examine these events.

If my remarks have led any to think the Trustees were innocent in these matters,

then all the more I pray they press into Christ for sound wisdom and judgment!!

I would love to give Ralph a call and hear him out.

I was hoping he might enter this dialogue,

but respect his choice to stay quiet.

If he is active in the Biblical Christian Church I'd love to know where.

I don't know much about this,

I just know Him who does.

...

They also serve as benchmarks to look at when people want to talk about a new changed more wonderful TWI. Have those practices changed?

...

People want to make ad hominem attacks on the character of RD to discredit these facts. They also want to derail and discount these facts by asking "where was Jesus during this time, and why no focus on him?" Those are tactics to distract and discredit, and lead away from the way of truth, not towards it.

...

Where's the proper training to avoid making the same mistakes?

Those are some very good and valid points Chockful.

Except for the central statement I have quoted here.

Since I am the one who has emphasized the need to focus on the presence of Jesus Christ ,

let me assure you it is most certainly NOT a tactic to "lead away from the way of truth."

That is as perverse a statement as I have come across in quite some time.

My intention was simply to direct our hearts into the sweet center of God's will.

Namely Jesus Christ.

I am also asserting that the failure to hold Jesus Christ as the head, and to recognize his presence is at the root of why so many good people were hurt so badly because of their association with TWI.

I will also say that The Greasespot serves the Lord well in helping us to see that TWI did not at all follow The Lord Jesus Christ in all of its practices and doctrines.

Once you recognize

that you can hold onto Christ without being involved in TWI,

then you are free indeed to be led to safe pasture.

Perhaps Ralph's boldest statement in this interview was when he told Craig

"Dr Weirwille was Wrong!"

In 1986 I would have called that heresy.

Now I recognize how right Ralph was and I am spiritually in a much better place.

Praise Be to God

I thank God for all the people, like Ralph Dubofski, who have fed me the Word and pointed me in the right direction. I am also learning to forgive those who intentionally or unintentionally hurt me or others through their disobedience to the Faith.

If you truly seek proper training, then I suggest you Give Christ a Try, and let him be Lord in your heart and life.

If you choose to investigate all the sinful and destructive practices of TWI, then

(as Jerry Garcia sang on The Festival Express)

"You Better take Jesus With You"

Peace

...If "Estimated Prophet" inspired you to go WOW...did "Ship of Fools" inspire you to leave twi?

As a matter of fact, Groucho, It Did !!

( how did you know? )

" Don't lend a hand to wave no flag

atop no Ship of Fools "

Then I bounced right into

"Going Down the Road and Feeling Bad,

Don't wanna be treated this-a-Way"

And don't you know the words sank in real deep

I like to think my Captain of Salvation was singing it along with me !!

maybe not ...but

It sure would make a good soundtrack for the

Cutting Through the Fog movie

And who do you suppose would be the first mate that rocked the boat?

Peter Wade maybe ...?

....

and Jen-O

I stand corrected.

I think you just hit The Mark !

Thank You

Keep Trucking

>> But ya know that EP wanted to put Jesus in the room.... <<

Thanks for noticing!

For those who didn't notice,

Jesus was there all the time in most of The Sing Along the Way songs!!

" and today He is still sweeter than he was the day before.."

...etc....

Forgive me if I seem too insensitive regarding the bad stuff.

It does strike me that stuff I refused to believe 20 years ago

is stuff I can't deny today.

The Playboy Mansion seems pretty tame compared to some of these stories!

It is all so tragic.

Especially how such abuse was associated with Christian Ministry.

God Bless You Excathedra,

and everyone else.

May the Savior's Love have full course in your hearts and homes

For those interested,

The Estimated Prophet is a song by the Grateful Dead

about a wigged out Jesus Freak who was always on a rant at their shows.

I only found that out recently,

but the song did inspire me to go out WoW in 82.

"Don't worry 'bout me No"

Peace

Thanks Y'all for the Feedback.

It made for a very stimulating cup of coffee this morning.

I almost spilled as I pictured Ham with his teeth latched on to a 'mogs' ear.

Too Funny.

Pawtucket:

I was aware that the interview was 'simply the facts' regarding those events,

and it was indeed consistently focused in that regard.

I think it was wise to stick to the facts as you did,

which allowed the spirit of God within the reader to provide whatever insight was needed.

I was just wondering what Ralph's take on Christ is now.

I know lots of us love to hear him express his heart on stuff.

I also think Ralph must trust you quite a bit to come to you to tell his story.

Kudos.

I know I have been preachy,

and its because I believe that Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace,

and our all in all.

Stuff I learned well in 'der Vey.'

( and I believe he was indeed present in the Yak twig.

too bad no one seemed to notice .)

Now I'll address some of these earthly things.

I don't deny there was lots of damage done,

especially in the attempts to do damage control.

But Now I See spelled that out really well.

One of my best friends was skewered in that manner at the Britt Lynn meeting in '87.

( and it was a can of worms )

My friend was asked directly by Britt if he thought Dr was comitting adultery.

I didn't know it at the time, but Britt must have.

But my friend knew personally a young lady who had been bedded.

He had also promised not to tell anyone else.

And there he was, put on the spot, in a very agitated scene.

Being asked to betray her trust regarding some Very Personal Information.

He neither confirmed nor denied,

and was marked and avoided and all of that.

It makes me sick inside just thinking about it.

It was Hell

Lots of good relationships were ruined in those days.

and yes, lots of that was done in the 'name of Jesus.'

God Have Mercy

but please don't let that keep you from pressing in to the True Jesus.

He is still Sweeter than he was the day before.

The only Way out of this mess.

( I don't know about Krishna,

but I hear "it takes so long" to get to know him

so I'm sticking to Jesus)

Britt Lynn is a former Navy Seal.

A real fighter.

I am not saying he is without fault.

None of us are.

I don't approve of everything Britt said and did that night.

But I do admire how he faced the issue head on.

The guy has a lot of guts.

There may have been some covering of his arse,

but he was soon out of a job anyways, as were all the other salaried leaders that were there.

It grieves me how the enemy was able to mess with their lives and ministries.

I will say the Word he taught from the scripture was right on the mark.

He taught Galations 1: 6-10.

How there are some who "trouble" the people

so they can effectively "pervert" the gospel.

"For do I now persuade men or God?

or do I seek to please men?

for if I yet pleased men,

I should not be the servant of Christ "

I don't know for sure "Who" any one else is serving,

but I am intent on serving my Christ Jesus.

Peace

Looking back is a good thing to do, if for nothing else, to put things in perspective. That era from 1985-1987 was a very confusing time for a great many people.

.....

Hopefully the details in the interview will show people that this was a systemic problem with an organization and not a problem with God.

Thanks Pawtucket.

I'm still curious as to what motivated this interview

and you have given me some insight.

Perhaps there were systematic problems with the organization.

But I think the interview shows the corrupt practices of top level leadership more than the organization as a whole.

On a local level, I think their were more Ralph Dubofski types on the scene than those leaders who took to Lording it over everyone.

In 1987 in Dallas there was a huge meeting of all twig coordinators in respnse to John Lynn's first visit to Dallas.

John at the time, had a list of controversial charges against TWI

of which adultery was the most alarming.

Our Limb Coordinator, Britt Lynn, admitted he was opening a can of worms.

He faced to controversy head on, looking for two or three witnesses to verify the charges.

There must have been a hundred or so of us there. It was very tense.

As for adultery.

No one condoned it it any way, shape , or form.

We looked at transcripts from the Christian Family and Sex class.

No doctrinal support there for adulterous behavior.

" I'd rather my kids come home hot and bothered than satisfied and scared"

The concern with John Schoenheit's paper on adultery, as I recall,

was the statement that went something like:

'perhaps Dr. Wierwill was wrong about adultery'

The concern was that this statement opened the door to further notions

such as

'perhaps Dr was wrong about tithing...

about believing,

about One God...etc."

The concern was that this attacked the integrity of the Word.

I now believe that forbidding these sorts of questions

allowed doctrinal and practical error to go unchecked.

We looked at I and II Timothy.

How the first century church first turned away from the Man of God

Then turned away from the Word of God

Then turned away from God.

I know my opinion isn't largely embraced here, and that's fine.

I just see a lot more of what was Right with the organization as a whole in those days.

I suggest, as we look back with our perspective of today,

that we don't ignore all the good and godly elements.

I encourage one and all to resist the devil and to draw nigh unto Christ.

I have been observing this for a long time.

I think looking at the muck and the mire is not healing.

Tell me Pawtucket,

Did Ralph have anything to say about the Lord Jesus Christ in your conversation?

I promise you,

If you will turn your eyes upon Jesus

( and perhaps my words sound foolish to some,

but they are in truth The Power of God

and the Wisdom of God)

If you will look full in his wonderful face,

then the things of earth will grow strangely dim...."

Two last thoughts:

1. These experiences and influences will serve to draw us closer to your Maker,

or drive you further away.

The choice is ours.

2. A practical error which became a doctrinal error is this one:

'Obeying leadership is just like obeying God.'

Not Always.

Press On

Yes.

Thanks Ralph for Everything you were doing in the 80's.

Thanks others here who were on the scene to confirm Ralph's report.

For the record

I was not even a twig coordinator when all this went down, and so was pretty much in the dark.

I thank God now I never served as a leader on a Way property. I was spared much.

The local leadership in Dallas and in Texas did a fine job in expressing what was happening, both publicly and privately. Much to their detriment I might add, since their livelihood was dependent on the benevolence of the Trustees. The ax came down and came down hard in 1989.

I can see now that no one I was close to had much of an idea of the corrupt practices taking place.

It seemed that once the problem was recognized, then there was a surge of accusation and complaint.

All of us finally realized that we weren't crazy about certain things and began to speak up about it.

Lots of close relationships were wrecked in the process.

Thanks for always being open and candid Ralph, with genuine godly wisdom.

I recall the Trunk Coordinator having a smoke with the folks in Dallas

before a big meeting in 1984.

Most VIPs would be hidden away in some holy place, but Ralph was right at home with the people.

He then taught out of IThessalonians, and his words concerning Paul's manner of entering in still live in my heart.

You should have been there!!

That day is my fondest memory of Ralph.

How he managed to consistently speak as pleasing God and not men,

and to still be included in the Yak twig,

is most remarkable.

Shalom

Are we to think everything we were taught in the Way Ministry was wrong?

I think not.

really?

it's been a walk of deception, for a long, long time..

what would you do, if you woke up one morning, and came to the realization that everything that you thought you believed was just plain wrong..

Hi Ham.

Someday we'll have to take a nice long walk in the woods.

I walk like a turtle, so it won't be hard to keep up.

I think we'd have a very interesting conversation.

I've been deceived before,

and I'm sure I'll be deceived again,

but I believe The Lord knows the way through the wilderness.

If I'm wrong, then maybe I'll go back to college,

or venture to the Terrapin Station.

Sometimes words mean different things to different people.

If you think the Way was a Biblical Research Ministry

you would be correct

but you might be caught in idolatry and deception.

Now

if you think The Way is the Lord Jesus Christ

You would also be correct

and might just be walking in the Light of the Truth.

I think we were deceived to think VP, or Craig, or Chris were capable of being Lord.

I think that is the kind of thing that drove them into the craziness of this topic.

Only Jesus is capable of being the Head of the Church.

Instead of waiting for instructions on the Telex.

I suggest we learn to trust the instruction of the Christ within.

Walk On

"Today if you will hear his voice,

harden not your hearts"

I salute Ralph for the integrity of his Stand in 1987.

But I have to wonder why he chooses to bring it all back up now.

Yes.

It is good to be aware of the presence and influence of evil in our midst.

But Why,

now that he wants to speak up,

does he fail to direct our hearts back to The Good Shepherd?

After listening to his diatribe my heart is aching with grief.

Thank God for my Savior Jesus whom I can turn to.

That's where the genuine healing is.

Yes, pal.

I see Christ in Ralph Dubofski.

I am just seeing other things under the surface.

Things trying to stifle the Christ in his heart of hearts.

What is really behind this message?

Are we to believe that everything the Way Ministry taught was wrong?

I think not.

We are very blessed with an incredible knowledge of the Truth.

We are even more blessed to have recognized

and pulled down

those things contrary to the obedience of Christ.

Well if I've learned anything,

it is to not buy everything an intelligent and persuasive man spits out.

Sorry Pal.

and I would love to hear what Ralph has learned about Christ in the past 20 years.

His ability to communicate Christ is sorely missed in the Church.

We still have more battles to fight.

More strongholds to pull down.

Welcome Back Ralph.

I want to hear more from you.

...Well Well....

Ralph sure named a lot of names.

He seemed to forget one who was present in all the goings on of the inner circle.

One who was in a great position of authority yet sadly ignored.

Many even believed he was absent, never noticing his presence

still the Truth lives and abides Forever.

and failure to believe him

and to obey him

remains man's basic spiritual problem.

So

Do you want to be frustrated?

then look at others.

Do you want to be miserable?

then look at yourself.

but if you want to have Peace

then turn your eyes upon Jesus....

the Sweetest name I know...

...constantly abiding....faithful and true...

and Christ Jesus will lift you up and

into the lap of the Almighty Father

and make you perfect,

established, strengthened, and settled.

He Is Our Hope of Glory

Ralph never mentioned The Lord and Savior

Jesus Christ.

I wonder why

What I choose to consider is how Jesus Christ manifests himself in his elect.

that, in no way, renders "insigificant" the consequences of unrighteous behavior.

If you are hearing 'CES BOD -talk', or 'Way Brain-talk",

then meybe you need to stop looking at the flesh and start looking at the spirit of holiness.

The Way and CES really have declared the Truht that lives and abides forever,

in spite of their sinful ways.

If you think I am blind to the egregious acts of unrighteousness perpetrated by those who ought to know better, then you haven't heard me.

If you don't know what I am saying,

than perhaps you don't yet know Him , for whom I speak.

Honestly.

WordWof,

my conversation with you is not at all unlike my last conversations with the CES folks.

Not unlike the dressing downs I got at the hands of the Way Corps.

I've heard the likes of all this before,

but I when I choose to believe the Word,

the shield of Faith estinguishes the firey darts being flung at me.

"Vile". "Grab a Bat", " Shame on you for not being Outraged".

Those are all words you introduced, Wolf, not me.

Yet you twist it around to berate me for throwing them back at you.

Those in Indianna also spun my words to make me look ignorant and blind.

But with more love than what I am getting from you.

SO BE IT

Yes.

The problem is how to deal with believers who practice sin.

Your method,

or The way Corps Method, or the CES method, or The Momentous method,

or the Anti -Christ's method, or the Way of Cain's method...

( and I am not going all over the place here, I am just hitting the same point )

...

your method is contray to the Way of Life and Peace.

You find me out of line, so you insult me and berate me and do the 'tough love' of tearing me down so that you can build me back up.

Except the Way Corps never realy learned how to build people back up.

They prefer to leave them beaten into submission.

Would I ever choose to bring my sins to light with the liokes of you?

Hell NO !

and by the way....God BLess You Too.......

The Way of Life and Peace moves in unconditional Love to gently conform a soul to the image of Christ and cleanse it of all unrighteosness.

.

CES didn't like this approach any more than you.

They even removed me from their mailing list.

Not long after rejecting the Word I spoke to them,

the powers that be determined that Elizabeth was overtaken in a fault.

You know the story well.

They went the Way of Cain to attack their sister in Christ.

Here is a Word I shared with them in 1999.

One they even published in their contentious magazine.

One which John Lynn rebutted in the same magazine.

One which I believe John is able to know and understand more clearly today:

( those with eyes to see can see the transformation

in this Apostle and Techer of the Lord Jesus Christ

Glory Be to God in His People)

" For such is the will of God

that by doing right you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Act as free men,

and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil,

but use it as bondslaves of God.

Honor all men,

love the brotherhood,

fear God,

honor the King,

...

for this finds favor,

if for the sake of conscience toward God,

a man bears up under sorrows

when suffering unjustly.

...

For you have been called for this purpose,

since Christ also suffered for you,

leaving you an example to follow in his steps,

who committed no sin,

nor was deceit found in his mouth,

and when being reviled,

he did not revile in return,

while suffering,

He uttered no threats,

but kept entrusting HImself to Him

who judges righteously;

and He Himself

bore our sins in His body

on the cross,

that we might die to sin

and live to righteousness;

by His wounds you were healed

For you were once continually straying like sheep,

but now you have returned

to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls."

IPeter 2:15ff

"Consider what I say,

for the Lord will give you understanding in everything"

IITimothy 2:7

OK Everybody

this will be a long post

and then I will take a break.

My response to WordWolf is in green letters

"[i'm going to spend some time here because I find this an especially vile post]"

WordWolf

You've a right to your opinions everyone.

I suppose if you don't believe in an accounting for disobedience before the righteous judge at the Bema, then you'll need to get your ball bat or sharpen your pen and take matters into your own hands. That's the way of Iniquity and lawlwssness as I see it , but go ahead and have at it.

[i suppose so.

Of course, that's a bizarre distortion of what you THINK I believe based on a single off-hand comment made which

also suggested opening discussion on the subject, but whatever you need to salve your own conscience, I suppose.

Perhaps we will discuss the judgement seat in detail.

I think it would be very intesting and enlightening.

perhaps I did make a bizarre distortion of your comments,

but its the best I can figure as to why you don't trust the Lord to avenge the evils done.

It's far easier just to lull the conscience, rationalize the hurts of others, and go about

your own business. To actually follow ALL God's injunctions takes work, sometimes hurts-a lot,

and involves actually caring about other people. I imagine that's not for everyone.

(Not that I hold myself as an exemplar of this either.)]

What justifies your vile words towards me Mr Wordwolf?

How is that different from the motives that justified all the physical and verbal abuse that you are so outraged at CES for inflicting on people?

[Well, I already posted it, but it seems your comprehension skills didn't seem up to the task, earlier up the page or

so.

You said

"I recall discussing VPW with John Lynn 15 or so years ago,

and John wanting me to see how much "evil" was involved in the Way.

He didn't think I was seeing it for some reason.

I did, but

I still don't care to focus on that crap."

and I replied

"[in other words,

John Lynn himself was well aware of the evils in twi (and is now oblivious to evils in ces/stfi

even when specifics are brought to him by people who know better),

and you consider the evils done by vpw himself, lcm and the trained cadre under vpw

as INSIGNIFICANT.

How can you say John is oblivious when his letter admonished Mark G for missing the mark.

Also, I never said the evils done were insignificant.

I simply don't care to focus on that crap.

And you still fail to demonstrate how your attack upon me is any different than the attacks

you are so outraged at CES for doing upon insubordinates.

They also esteem my 'comprehension skills' in low degree.

They've never called me "vile" .

Would you approve of me reacting to your insults by knocking you on the head with a baseball bat? SHAME on YOU. Is that the instruction in righteosness that your superior comperehension skills have determined ?

Women were raped, women were drugged, THEN raped, children were beaten 1/2 to

unconsciousness, some developing long-term psychological damage,

some children were molested and twi'ers did a breakin to steal evidence against the

"minister" who did it, and relocated him-more than once,

one man blew his brains out because lcm insisted on repeatedly having sex with that man's wife,

vast coverups of all the above were done,

women were raped as the result of mandatory hitchhiking to LEAD-and vpw himself blew off

the accounts and did nothing to change the program,

one corps participant was crippled from injuries caused by an accident in an unsafe vehicle

used by the corps- then was kicked out of the corps and committed suicide,

people leaving twi were told it would be better if they just killed themselves,

the corps were treated like slave labour for life-by vpw himself,

and the doctrine of "the lockbox"-all these things were PERMISSABLE for the top echelon

and anyone else should remain silent-

besides other evils that escape me at the moment-

and you considered all of that INSIGNIFICANT.]

NO Sir.

But you are now making the bizarre distortions

You said

""All that evil is fairly minimal

when compared to the tremendous Truth that was held forth by Dr W.

Likewise John L."

and I replied

"[First of all, lives were ENDED, lives were LOST, lives were RUINED,

and you consider those "fairly minimal."

I thank God you are not in charge of determining the value of MY OWN LIFE.

I consider each person worth more than that-

even when they utter such callous, despicable things.

IICor 4 expresses what I am asserting, and I am in no way de-valuing anyone's life.

The affliction is light and temporary, and the reward is an eternal weight of Glory.

This is why I endure all your insults, WordWolf,

because I love your passion for truth and justice and your love for people,

and I admire your superior comprehension skills.

and your insults are fairly minimal compared to the good thoughts you have to share.

I simply ask that you extend the same courtesy towards John Lynn.

God grants him mercy. Why don't you?

To you, lives are EXPENDABLE

so long as the organization and its programs are reflecting the doctrines

you want.

That's what you just said.

NO.

But I have to wonder why that is what you are hearing?

Or are you just grandstanding?

Contentiousness has been described as a campainer

in the way it loves to sling the mud around in order to disgrace an opponent.

That is what you are doing to me right now, isn't it.

All I'm saying is that lives are saved by

Jesus Christ dieing on the Cross in order to redeem them.

Second of all,

you appear remarkably ill-informed as to the proven doctrinal errors in twi at the pen

of vpw, and the practical errors he did and taught were perfectly acceptable

(if you were in the inner cadre)

No, I've never been in the inner cadre except for three years as a Twig Coordinator

and are remarkably ill-informed to the degree that the entire package of twi-

excepting the permissiveness and policies I objected to-

were all ripped off from other Christians.

The entire pfal class was taken straight from the works of other Christians-

Leonard, Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger- with vpw's name added and their names removed.

All the early twi books were taken directly from the books of other Christians-

with vpw's name added and their names removed.

All the later twi books were the work of twi research people-

with vpw's name added and their names never mentioned-

and not even mentioned by category (as in "the research dept worked on this".)

Remarkably, I am aware of most of that.

It is outrageous that VP actaully behaved so poorly.

I simply approve of the ability VPW had to Teach the Word and cause it to live in people's hearts.

And I give God the Glory for that.

Third of all,

you seem determined to make

THE SAME MISTAKE

and give John L a free pass.

People's lives were ruined? Some had breakdowns? Some were destroyed by

Momentus, "personal prophecies", and ridicule from the pulpit?

Oh, that's not important- he's teaching the Doctrine I respect!

Ignore the lost and damaged lives.

In conclusion, you're reflecting a position of

"I got mine-who cares if you suffer?"

All the pious posting on the internet can't wipe away a callous heart, nor excuse it.]

And what justifies the insults you continue to slap on me?

How is this unlike the ridicule from the pulpit that bothers you?

I am speaking the Truth of God's Word, and you call it pious posting.

And your conclusion is way off!!

My conclusion is that Jesus came to save sinners,

and we were all dead in our trespasses and sins,

and so we all need his redeeming love and mercy.

If that's too pious for you,

then that is your problem

You said

""it's the same old story, the same old spiritual battle,"

and I replied

"[it is indeed.

Lives are STILL being sacrificed at the whims of leadership,

and other lives are GLOSSING THAT OVER.

I consider that SPIRITUAL DARKNESS.

You may consider that something else- like "excusable" or "crap" or "minimal".

Jesus cares about ALL Christians- not just the leaders-

and would NEVER allow the one lost sheep to be cast aside.

He makes sure the lost sheep is found.

I completely agree

How do you think he'd address the attitude that suffering Christians are "minimal"?]"

As I said, He will respond with an eternal weight of glory

You said

"That is the truth I care about.

In the world, we are all guilty as sin.

In Christ we are cleansed from all impurities."

and I replied

"[And all the OTHER truths are those you care NOTHING about-

like the ongoing performance of evil-so long as you approve of the performer's doctrine

and delivery-

and it's not YOU or YOURS that are being victimized.

I bet your pious posturing tune would change in an INSTANT if one of those

so-called servants of God drugged and raped your wife or daughter.

Would it be "Oh, turn to Jesus, sweet one, he will deliver you from your suffering?"

NO-

it would be "He did WHAT? I'll take care of this-where'd I leave my pistol and baseball bat?"

And if your response would NOT be outrage,

then SHAME ON YOU.

SHAME ON YOU for having such a callous, atrophied heart that you can't see the need

to avenge the suffering of the innocent.]"

I consider the systematic excusing of evil as justification-

the vileness of your OWN words, the relabelling of "evil" as "good."

The vileness

is in your manner of interpreting my words.

'Consider what I say.

and may the Lord give you understanding in all things'

Isaiah 5:20

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

The injunctions to CEASE using our senses to discern good and evil,

contrary to God's instructions.

Agreed

Hebrews 5:14

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So, call my words "vile" all you wish, if it salves your conscience.

It's just another example of swapping the labels.

And if you can't tell the difference between a warning OF evil-

which I've done and JAL and ces ONCE did-

and the inflicting of harm by inventing spiders up the nose and other things to savage a reputation,

then nothing else I say can show it to you.]

Perahps you haven't read my reaction to the treatment of Elizabeth Lynn.

I said it boils my Irish Blood.

Your insults and comments really don't bother me, WordWolf.

What happened to Elizabeth bothers me a lot.

If you would simply forgive, you could let go of all that baggage.

["1 Peter 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

I can try it God's method,

or I can try it your method,

and use "a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep" (Proverbs)

when my fellow Christians are harmed and suffer.

or better yet, walk in the spirit of Meekness in order to restore people overtaken by the wicked one's schemes.

Your method's a LOT less work.]

Sounds like you are still following the letter of Way Corps training rather than the Prince of Peace.

We are all so quick to seize the error and magnify it way beyond proportion.

[Then you need your hearing checked.

Being a Christian is SOMETIMES about Peace- Shalom Shalom-

and sometimes about that peace motivating ACTION.

And speak for yourself when "magnifying error way beyond proportion."

I've confined my discussions to the letter of what's been documented-

both on this and other threads.]

So calling my heart "calloused" and my words "vile" and I reflect "spiritual darkness"

is not an exageration ? Well, maybe I should be bothered, but

I suggest you have three fingers pointing at yourself

for every one you've pointed at me.

'John Lynn insulted us because he won't post here"

Outrageous!!!

[Now that's a fine example of "magnifying way beyond proportion."

Kindly cite where I made such an outrageous claim.

I claimed JAL insulted us when he made a insults and attempted to

poison the well and claimed we'd only "take potshots" at him,

and say we "lack love and courage."

Forget already?

Check out the first post of this thread- the ending is where he said each of those.

I made no claims that refusing to post here, in and of itself, was an insult.

Kindly cite the post where such a claim was made by me.

I say it indicates certain things, but not that it's an insult.]

Thank you for clarifying that one for me.

and who is he that would lay anything to the charge of God's elect?

Evil is as Evil does.

["Galatians 2:11.

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."

That Paul must have been soooo Evil, according to your measure.

"II Timothy 2:14

Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:"

There he goes again.

If Paul's a bad Christian by your lights, then I'd GLADLY join him and suffer your label, your stigma,

for actually daring to call good "good", evil "evil" and hold Christians-especially leaders-

accountable for their actions.]

Fair enough.

Though I have never intended to call evil good.

I believe it is good to show mercy.

Shall we overcome evil with evil?

or overcome evil with good?

[Overcome evil with good.

"Overcome" is a verb, and denotes ACTION.]

Sin and Death?

Life and Peace?

Your choice.

"Liar and Theif"? or

" Holy and Without Blame"?

[This "black and white" thinking has hobbled men of conscience for millenia.

"Liar" when a man lies,

"thief" when a man steals,

and "holy and without blame" when justified by God.

So if a man tells one lie, then he is always a liar?

Then how in the world can any of us be holy and without blame?

"Ephesians 4:28

Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."

Seems God can tell the difference, and expects us to NOT lie, and NOT steal.

"Romans 6:11-16

11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Seems God does, at that.]

One can make a case for either side.

[seems the strength of the meaning of the verses is on the Christian being

responsible for NOT SINNING.]

I absolutely agree.

So what shall be done with the people who do sin?

When you swing your bat at the next sinner, Wolf,

imagine Jesus stepping in to take the blow for the object of your wrath.

I choose to believe the Word.

and I will reprove rebuke and admonish In season and Out of season when called upon.

( like right at this moment )

I am preacing the power of the Cross.

Foolish to some. ( rationalizing?)

A stumbilng block to others.

But to those who are being saved it is the power of God.

[And, naturally, skipping those parts of The Word that seem "too harsh" and are

inconvenient to one's conscience.]

You're not listening very well are you

Can anybody hear me? !!

My picture is of a skeleton in a jester's costume. (holding the harp unstrung)

It is a reflection of my my foolish preaching out of a broken and corrupted body.

See Gal 2:20 and I Cor 1-4, Eph 2

The Cross represents the ultimate of cruelty and abuse anyone ever inflicted upon another.

It represents the depravity of the unredeemed soul.

It represents the consequences of evil actions.

It also represents the ultimate expresion of Love,

that our Savior would take that sort of punishment on our behalf,

and then forgive the ones who killed him.

It represents the lamb of God

that takes away the sins of VPW and John Lynn and You and Me...

[And according to God's Word,

this is not an excuse to sin any further.

Correct.

Forgiveness is the first step towards the glory of God.

but one will never see the glory of God without first coming into his Holiness.

To continue in sin is to harden one's heart and to be alienated from the life of God.

Romans 6:1

"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"

God forbid.

This means that JAL and WordWolf and Estimated Prophet are all

RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS, for good or ill,

for help or harm.

This includes actions and words.

Agreed

Matthew 12:36

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

Which is why I say there are more than just rewards being handed out at the Bema.

There will also be an accounting for our wrongdoings which will not be pleasent.

I suggest you spend some time at the Cross Mr. Wordwolf,

and let its wonder working power soak in.

This is the same truth I spoke to John Lynn,

and he responded in much the same manner as you Mr. WordWolf.

Lets make sure everybody knows all the rotten things that were done.

[Let a wise man build his house on solid ground, and discern the face

of the seasons, and be warned against danger.

Ezekiel 33:1-11

"1Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:

3If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;

4Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.

5He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.

6But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

7So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

8When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

9Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?

11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Warning people is in God's repertoire and in his instructions.]

Very well,

and I acknowledge that you are serving Christ as a watchman.

Really.

Is that the wisdom from above ? Hmmmmm

Now, after 15 years of attacking and being attacked, what has this method amounted to?

[if that's ALL you've gleaned from the past 15 years of JAL's life,

I'd recommend looking more closely.

I hold him responsible for a LOT more than you do, and I'm aware that he's spent a

considerable amount of time TRYING to do good.]

I am aware of much more than I choose to say here.

And I will fight for you too WordWolf,

just like I will fight for John Lynn,

and for the honor of Jesus Christ whom we like to think we are serving.

[Consider Ezekiel 33:13, and ask if you're really using ALL the proper tools....

"13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."]

Consider Issiah 53:6

"All we like sheep have gone astray;

we have turned every one to his own way;

and the Lord hath laid on him

the iniquity of us all"

...

I will do whatever I can to bring an end to evil. And I do it by remembering to direct my anger ---not to ANY guys...not to any people.....but to the SOURCE--God's enemy, Satan. I then engage my weapons that are not carnal but mighty to the pulling down of strongholds (lies we humans believe and therefore act on)....and Christ gets the vicotry and the glory!

If those who hurt people do not repent privately, speaking the truth to them becomes more public--and those of us who hear about it can stand with those actually involved in it by remembering that we don't beat evil by becoming like it....and by remembering that the GOAL is Repentance...so there is change...so evil ends.

This is a wonderful forum where hidden things can be brought to light so that we can know where to use our authority in Christ to STOP the enemy from continuing to use our brothers/sisters in Christ for his purposes.

Thanks again, Paw, for making this available.

Well said Grace.

I do see the value in bringing the hidden things to light.

It is important to learn that even notable Christian Ministers are capable of being sinful,

and that it is far wiser to obey God rather than men.

I think you are confusing forgiveness, and common sense. According to Mark Twain, a cat burned sitting on a hot stove, will not sit on it again. You can yell at the cat, telling it how evil it is, how unloving it is to exclude the hot stove from full sharing in its life.

But despite passionate pleas for love and forgiveness, and to let go of its "negative" painful "baggage" in its memory, it just won't listen.

Oh, the pain...

So, ignoring the fact that those who supposedly have "da power" are living a broken life, not unlike the rest of us, have the same bodily functions, and put their pants on the same way in the morning, despite the claims, promises, and innuendo otherwise, let's just put down our "differences", and set upon the stove once again..

Ham,

Actually I got off the stove three years ago.

I think you're confusing forgiveness with denial.

I never denied anything is wrong, but I have forgiven the wrongdoers

rather than setting out to teach them a lewson by setting their pants on fire.

Can anybody hear me? !!

Quote: Estimated Prophet

I can hear you EP, I have enjoyed reading your post and can see the Christ shinning through.

I wonder sometimes why you take the abuse you take from some of these people, I guess again

it must be that Christ within. Bless you Bro., I hear ya.

Undone

Thank You Undone

.

It reminds me of the differences listed in galatians between those of the flesh and those of the spirit. I hvae no respect for those who chose to act as if they are *of the flesh* with *no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven*

I am sorry, I just don`t have any respect for them.

I think Galations speaks very loudly concerning the crisis at CES.

I know my posts sound like I think everything's hunky dory,

but I don't.

I truely abhor that which is Evil.

I think Galations 6 thuders when it says

" God is not Mocked,

as a man sows so shall he reap"

( my paraphrase)

but we are also called to recover those who are caught in the snare of sin

to reach out in "the spirit of meekness" to help restore them.

"Blame the devil"

I think it's kinda like watching a wolf ripping through the same flock, time and time again.. the devil sits back, laughing.. "have at it boy, I'll keep taking the heat.."

Malcolm Smith said once a lady asked him to kick a lieing spirit out of her.

He told her he was sorry, but she had a much bigger problem.

That it would be very easy to call upon the little finger of God and drive the demon away.

"My dear Lady" he told her,

" this will be much more difficult.

The problem is that you're a liar.

You're going to have to change !!"

Sheesh EP, every time you post you make CES sound just like TWI!

In TWI it was Worse to be unforgiving(ooo, bitter!) and Speak up about a problem where believers were being hurt than to be the leader who was hurting the believers.

Basically, you're saying shut up and take it, They're the men of GAWD so it's necessary for the movement of the word that You Shut Up and Forgive!

That, in my view, is Christianity at its ugliest.

Sheesh Bramble.

You're missing the point.

let me put it like Don Hendley,

" it's time to get down

to the heart of the matter,

because the flesh is weak

and the ashes will scatter but I think it's about

FORGIVENESS..."

But please do speak up,

I think the sinful actions of Christian Overseers is especially diabolically disgraceful.

really

hmmm....as i said, Esty, you should poke around this forum a bit if you have a problem with my characterization of ol' vp. what i said was both direct and and accusation. nothing evil about it, if it's true.

you need to do your homework, my friend.

You know I always hated doing home work SO.

And I acknowledge that I was making a direct acusation when I accused you of making a direct accusation.

Naturally I don't think mine was evil....but I could be wrong.

I don't deny that your words are valid regarding VP.

I believe they describe his old , sinful nature.

My words were describing the new , Christlike nature of Dr W.

They are valid as well, and much more enduring.

I have learned to appreciate the manifestation of the "Real You" or the Christ within.

I try to be patient with the "old man" encounters,

but I encourage all of us to put on the mind of Christ and walk in his ways.

and " That's where its at, if you want to believe it"

as Jerry said to the violent protestors in Canada while on The Festval Express

" ...better take Jesus with you..."

( see the movie if you want to observe pathologically anti-authoritarianism)

Cool, thanks for understanding undone, I wasn`t meaning just you in particular. Gosh, I don`t want EP to feel picked on either. It probably feels that way, but it really isn`t personal.

I have been reading wolf and these other folks for quite some time. The information presented can feel overwhelming, like an attack, but it isn`t an attack of the person, it is of ideas and thought patterns that sometime we don`t even realise are affecting our judgement.

I thought that if EP could re read what wolf and some of these folks have written without being so angry, he/she might be able to consider the merit of the information that was being presented.

I know, it is damned hard to have to come to grips with what really happened in twi.

I am sure that if EP and others were aware of what happened to so many of us directly at vp/lcm/leaders hands in twi, they would no doubt understand the outrage we personally feel when the carnage is blythly referred to as being *minimal*.

Rascal,

I'm way beyond being angry.

I just see a vicious cycle going on of outrage begetting more outrage.

Now people I would have thought knew much better are hiring attorneys

to express their outrage more articulately and officially.

I am convinced that it all stops at the cross,

and that the newness of life and peace awaits on the other side.

See II Cor 5 or IPeter4 or Phil 3.

There is a place called "sharing the sufferings of Christ" that we don't want to go to,

but it is a place where an intimacy with the Savior is found that is incredibly sweet.

It's a place I pray Elizabeth Lynn has found, and everyone else who has been afflicted,

because it is the only place where one can find genuine healing

and the capaciity to really love the unlovable.

Yup, I guess it can be considered minimal as long as it wasn`t his heart shattered or life that was ravaged and destroyed...sigh :(

Rascal,

Someday I'd like to have a nice long talk with you.

I have been more ravaged, shattered, and destroyed than you have any way of knowing.

I am holding on to Jesus for dear life because he is my sanity and whoelse has the words of Life?

I have been crushed like a grape , and now he is turning me into new wine for a new time.

and I can see him doing that with you too.

Hallelujah

Minimal?????

That was spoke like a true cult member. Lets see I died but you learned pp how great that was.

I don't know who said it but i'm thankful i'm not part of that family.

Who ever wrote this i'd like to hear if you could share scripture with me? I'd like to see how all that wonderful wisdom dw and jl taught you covered what you said.

Are you still on the bus waiting for vp and jl to show up?

Mercy.

I'm on the bus of Jesus Christ, and if you will believe that it might drive away the contention and cofusion.

" Therefore we do not lose heart,

but though our outer man is decaying,

yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

For momentary, light affliction

is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison"

IICor 4:16,17

I know the affliction is an awful thing to experience,

but the Word of God is clear ( regardless of VP, JL or anyone's contrary opinion)

the affliction is minimal or "light."

Rich,

Your rejection of me, " I'm glad you're not in my family"

and your insult , " a true cult member"

is the latest in a series of afflictions made upon me.

But comparing that with all the edifying posts you've made, its really no big deal.

Well said, Frisco Guy. Well said.

and Socks...you are Deep! God Bless You.

This thread really blessed me this morning everyone.

Thanks.

I remember an outreach class with CES/S&T where the instructor asked us

"where else can you go and find unconditional love?"

I kept my answer to myself, but maybe a guy from Frisco might appreciate it:

A Grateful Dead Concert.

of course if you want holiness you'd best look elsewhere.

In all honesty, there were so many conditions required by CES with its code of conduct and such, that many of us fell from grace. The love got real cold when the conditions weren't being met.

I find that we need to find the secvurity of being unconditionally loved by a merciful God, before we can open our hearts up and let him in to purge away the unholiness.

What I am seeing at CES, under attorney's orders of course, is a desire to deny any wrong-doing in order to save face. Very religious and very unhealthy in my opinion.