Estimated Prophet

If you genuinely feel that way, then what "rule" or "yoke" compels you to post here, Mr. Prophet?

Or is it "Jesus" moving you to do so?

...

P.S. -I might also add, that Jesus didn't seem to have a problem openly debating and disputing with the scribes, lawyers

and pharisees - before all the crowds - through the open "forums" of His day.

Danny,

and Jesus had a way of slipping away from their clutches when he chose to as well.

a good rule of thumb:

If your yoke is hard and your burden is heavy,

then perhaps that's an indicator that you're not under the yoke of Jesus Christ

I'd like to believe that it is the spirit of Christ moving me to post here,

but I recall times where some of my rants have been moved by a spirit of indignation and wrath

and I mistakenly thought it was holy spirit.

So I won't guarantee any of what I say is a "thus saith the Lord"

and I am indignant with some of the insinuations and exaggerations

that have been made towards some of my friends in the Faith.

and the Lord has revealed somestrongholds in my heart since I came here

and dialogued. He's showing me some bitterness that needs to be squeezed out.

That's part of why he has me coming back.

my sincereity is no guarantee for Truth.

but I pray the Lord gives us understanding in all things

as we consider these things.

and we only know in part,

and prophecy in part;

so we need to hear each other out to really see the bigger picture.

( It would be great for John Lynn or Mark G to be in the discussion,

but they can't be all things to all people,

Thank God that the spirit of Christ is actively present.)

With all seriousness.

It was not so much CES that freed me from the yoke of bondage

as it was Jesus Christ working within them.

and it was not so much Jesus Christ who freed me

as it was our Almighty God and Father

working within Christ.

" to Him be all glory and honor in the Church and in Christ Jesus

now and forever"

Why the Father chooses to work in us people the way He does

is a Mystery to me

but I'm glad he does!

and when people have let me down,

the Savior picks me back up

usually working in another saint.

I agree, Oak.

I'm guessing this public forum to them is beyond their "space" and "comfort zone".

I respectfully disagree.

Who made the rule that CES leadership should post their opinions here

and engage in the dialogue?

I don't believe that's comiing from our Lord Jesus.

I will even say that Christian Educational Services

freed me from the yoke of having to live up to other people's expectations,

and all those man-made rules and reg's.

So if it bothers you that JL or MG or JS aren't here every day like some of us

just let it go.

Its very liberating.

and if you really want their point of view

just call or write them.

Peace

My advice - go to whatever church or training or fellowship that suits your fancy. Take responsibility and ownership for yourself and your actions. And trust God to help you make sense of it all.

Good Point.

Regardless of which road we choose,

we have an actively present Savior

who is with us to the end

and is able to subdue all things to his own will.

I don't ever expect to subject myself to a Momentous style training,

but I can't deny the Savior has worked in the process for many who have gone through it.

I've also seen him work his work in the lives of those who don't go through the process.

I just rejoice when I see him working.

This discussion has been very enlightening for me.

Thanks everyone for allowing Christ to manifest himself in you.

God Bless You All.

Perhaps you misread me as well. No, I'm not bitter, or hatefull. But I'm not gullible either, at least anymore. I'll admit "no public dialog, buy my book" tends to ruffle my feathers a little bit.

On his word, STFI is supposed to have the best "package" in the world..

I've heard that before.

...

Arrogance, to the end.

The Lord says he hates arrogance..

I can be arrogant at times, but it wears off- eventually I learn that I don't have all the answers. When are these guys gonna?

Well Ham,

you're not the first person I ever mis-read.

a local teacher I like says

' it's impossible to be arrogant without being ignorant.

You can be ignorant without being arrogant,

but you can not be arrogant without being ignorant"

I have to believe these guys are learning some hard lessons.

I know I am

Peace

Estimated Prophet, please look over my post # 539 – after defining the office of an apostle from theological encyclopedias and pointing out Jesus' criteria for determining a false prophet - you quoted my comments on that but left off something that I thought really made my point in your situation:

...…So I'm not accusing anyone of being a false apostle or prophet. If they're not a ravenous wolf or some glory hound claiming that God sent them [like the false apostles of II Corinthians 11:3-15] – maybe they're just a Christian who feels insecure and is looking for an ego boost – perhaps they mean well – but this assumption of self-importance [which I've seen all too much back in TWI] rallies Christians around a mere human – hero worship. ...

I don't have a problem with people wanting to teach others and to care for the church. Why does it have to be authorized with some self-assumed title or office? Throwing around these titles just hits me as a way to gain influence over others. Appeals are made to the authority of Scripture – when they wish to amass more authority for themselves. I think the biblical definition of apostle stresses divine choice, divine training and divine empowerment – but what I've seen from some people who love to flaunt the ordination badge – is their love for a divine position...

I think Mark's article on the Lordship of Jesus Christ was most appropriate here. While in TWI my faith was TWI-leadership-centered rather than Christ-centered. The focus of my faith [TWI leadership] was a key reference point. It held sway over my decision-making ability. Where am I at spiritually? Just find out what TWI leadership thinks of me. What does this passage mean? Consult TWI leaders and TWI reference material. The status of MY spiritual life was bound up in and governed by TWI leadership. That's why the dilemma of some CES followers and leaders sounds SO FAMILIAR to me. So…maybe to clarify my earlier comments let me add – I'm not accusing any of the CES leadership of being false apostles or false prophets. I am suggesting that some of the followers and leaders may have succumbed to a practice of faith that is NOT Christ-centered – but CES-leadership-centered.

T-Bone,

I dare say that are wise beyond your years.

(... must be something inside...)

Let me say again that it was ME and not John L

throwing out the titles of Apostle and Teacher.

John, as I recall over 15 years later (?!!)

began CES by emphasizing those same points you made.

Lot's of anti-heirarchy rhetoric.

Lot's and Lot's of " What a Friend we have in Jesus"

S&T never came close to emulating TWI's insistance on obeying leadership,

in my humble opinion,

and for the most part behaved as a para-church

that genuinely allowed local fellowships to be self-governing.

John, Mark, and John simply offered their support without wanting to control things.

An inner circle did develope,

as is the nature of organizations,

and perhaps did relegate the Lordship of Christ.

Sort of falling into the trap of

"What I say is The Word of God is What I say is the Will of God"

or

"Obeying me is just like obeying God"

I think this occured because they learned the hard way what happens

when you give a stage to over-opinionated loose cannons like me.

They became more cautious over who and what to endorse.

Then perhaps

they trusted too little in the active presence of the Lord Christ Jesus

and his ability to ' make his servants stand.'

...perhaps...

I don't know

but I do know Him who does,

and I pray we all get to know him

and trust him

more and more.

Estimated, your last post sounded, for want of a better word, theatrical. You make it almost sound like we are willing to throw the CES leaders under a moving bus. No one here is contemplating this, at least that I know of. But the real question is why do you think any of them are, at this time, making a better contribution to the body of Christ than a number of people on this board? Try this teaching instead.

http://www.waychrist.com/Lordship_JC.htm

Mark,

Pardon my melodrama,

and forgove me for misjudjing anyone here.

This discussion is taking me into some deep places and I am a bit over my head.

I also never intended to say they are making a better contribution to the body than anyone else.

I just think the people at S&T aren't as bad as this thread seems to suggest with

some of the references to bad fruit and ravening wolves.

I'm glad that you don't want to throw them under the bus.

Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong.

I never meant to say there is nothing wrong with S&T,

and pray is gets straightened out.

Your article on the Lordship of Jesus Christ is superb.

Thanks for sharing it with us and for getting my day off to a good start.

"so.. if I don't accept the message of J.L.'s apostleship, and look at the man behind the curtain, I'm a gonner?"

HI Ham,

I think you missed my point.

( and I am not "one of their prophets" )

(( I am not a prophet nro attempting to prophecy here,

this is simply my considered opinion ))

The point is that we all have a choice:

We can

" Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and slander

be put away from you,

along with all malice "

Eph 6:31

or not.

It may sound funny to you,

but your choice will either energize the holy spirit in you

or not

" You will know them by their fruits"

Matthew 7:16

T-Bone states:

"…Jesus said you'll spot them by their predatory traits [being like ravenous wolves] and the fruits of their labor [the end result of their work]. For our Lord to leave such simple directions - it can't be too hard to miss. He indicated the type of tree is known by the type of fruit – He didn't say on a good tree you might find some bad fruit – like some of it is overripe or rotten. That is thinking about quality of fruit – but Jesus is speaking of genus – oranges from an orange tree – apples from an apple tree, figs from a fig tree, etc…So I'm not accusing anyone of being a false apostle or prophet. If they're not a ravenous wolf or some glory hound claiming that God sent them [like the false apostles of II Corinthians 11:3-15]"

Considering this

I find myself at the crux of the dilimna.

Is S&T a good tree with some over ripe or rotten fruit?

Or is it a bad tree with bad fruit?

Is John Lynn a good tree, so to speak,

or Mark G or any one of us?

Are we rotten to the core?

If one of those people have offended me,

do I have the right to cast them off and throw them into the fire?

Is this process really necessary?

Is it right to disconnect from them?

What do we do with people when they are disobedient to the Truth?

( which I have been many times )

I don't know, but I know Him who does.

What would Jesus do?

I believe that Jesus Christ saw this whole problem,

and laid down his life,

and died for them,

that he might redeem them.

I believe that John and Mark have believed in Christ,

and have received his divine and incorruptable nature.

As such they are able to produce good fruit.

I am praying that instead of opting for divorce,

that the Love of Christ will constrain them,

and they will obey the truth,

and be reconciled .

and I believe this is just one more fiery trial of our Faith,

in which our Lord Christ Jesus is working to purify unto himself a people

who are zealous for good works.

He has the Words of life

So I'll be holding on to him

all the way to Glory

but

what a long strange trip it's been !!

I love it!

Lot's of heat lightning is flashing in my heart as I read.

Three things.

1 God Bless You Billy.

It's people like you that my heart grieves for and I totally understand and share the conflicted emotions.

2. T-Bone

Thanks for the juicy serving of meat.

3. The whole apostleship of John Lynn is strictly my own thought.

Please don't let anybody get mad at him for that.

John has never claimed such a title.

No one else I know has made that claim as far as I can recall.

and I reserve my right to change my mind later about any and all of what I've said.

( see T-Bone's line about tyranny as my justification for that escape clause)

(( or as my Catholic aunt likes to say...

"Blessed are the flexible

for they will not get bent out off shape" ))

I imaging John would be uncomfortable with me calling him such,

but I believe he functions as an apostle.

I agree that Eph 4 indicates apostles are still needed in the church.

I also think the bible lists more than Paul and the twelve , such as Barnabus, in the 1st century church

Read 11Corinthians 11 ff and notice what a scandal the apostleship of Paul stirred up.

His opponents in the church certainly had a solid basis to find him suspect .

I don't know, I just know Him who does.

and yes, the gift ministries are functioning here

and the genuine ones I encounter (IMO) prefer not to have the title

and genuinely give all praise and glory to God.

May the Lord give us understanding in all things.

Mark:

Good points.

I trust we have all learned more about the spiritual battle since the Athletes of the Spirit drama.

Mostly that the Man of God does not replace the Absent Christ.

That was indeed an arrogant attitude.

Jesus Christ is very present in our lives

and he is indeed the one we need to look to

for guidance and protection and all those things pertaining to life and godliness.

He alone is The Master Apostle.

Rejoicing in Him and that our names are written in heaven is very powerful.

Ham,

Your assessment of JL may be different from mine,

and we may rub each other the wrong way,

but I agree that there are wolves in sheeps clothing to beware of.

Likewise False Apostles and False Prophets,

and I'm not sure how to determine where an Apostle or Prophet crosses the line and becomes False.

Just where should we draw the line

God have Mercy on them.

For what it's worth,

my definition of an Apostle is much different from what I learned as a Roman Catholic,

or later as a PFAL Grad.

I don't see an Apostle as a 'super-human' so much any more,

just someone with a calling to care for the Church.

someone capable of being wrong at times.

You are right on to reference Galations regarding these things in my opinion.

Rascal,

in my humble opinion...

If we ripped out every tree that produced any bad fruit,

how many trees would be left?

I know what Jesus said,

but believe his meaning was similar to the admonition

of cutting off your right hand if it offends you.

I don't think he wants us to carry out those orders so literally,

but wants us to see the importance of walking rightly.

I also see my Savior as the husbandman who interceeded for the corrupt tree;

persuading the Master to let him dung the tree and redeem it back to a healthy state.

This is how I believe my Lord Jesus is perceiving the leadership with S&T now.

I believe he is actively working to open their eyes and help them to see what went wrong,

and how to correct it.

I believe in all of those people and their desire to allow the Lord to work.

Eating the fish and spitting out the bones is not bogus.

"Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good" says the same thing in my mind.

In my opinion,

If you think you're in a place or with people where there is no bad fruit at all,

Then I think you'd better open your eyes.

Or maybe I'm just cynical

Is this really true?

This is the same guy somebody thinks is an APOSTLE? They have words for this where I am from; I will not express them here..

I have a few questions, and questions about personal prophecy are the least of my concerns.

no WONDER he doesn't want open dialog..

Ham,

Here's a Word for an Apostle who got out of line:

" BUT WHEN CEPHAS CAME TO ANTIOCH,

I OPPOSED HIM TO HIS FACE,

BECAUSE HE STOOD CONDEMNED"

Galations 2: 11

Thanks to all of you for your kind responses.

It's great how sound communication brings understanding to misunderstandings.

Estimated, many of us, believe it or not, are tying to help you here with what we have written. We have also tried to help John Lynn. For example, I have e-mailed John Lynn and Dan Gallagher a few times since I heard about their crisis. I even had two long phone conversations with John Lynn in the past month in the hopes he would reevaluate his life and ministry. As I also told John by phone, I do not think you and he are evaluating things with wisdom. Jesus said "by their fruit you will know them." I have tried to impress this on John and I will now try to impress this truth upon you with the hopes that it might open up your eyes. One brother suing other brothers in Christ over Christian ministry matters is not good fruit no matter how one rationalizes it. Can you see that? This bad fruit has been growing over a period of years because of what they have grafted into their ministry, namely with Momentous and especially, "personal prophecy." Have you thought of the possibility that CES is simply getting the fruit of their own actions with their disagreements and the lawsuit? How many ministries do you know that have boards that prophecy about others in their congregation and see spiders coming out of their nose or see them with many demons and the like such as was falsely prophecied about Elizabeth?

Mark,

You have helped me see more clearly

so Thank You.

The "disconnect" word you wrote made me see a stronghold

that has prevented me from fully engaging in fellowship for years

in order to protect my heart from further wounding.

That's a big deal for me, so Thanks.

You may not realize that I disconnected from S&T two years ago

because I was and still am aware of the problems which are being addressed at this site.

Now I wonder if I had stayed connected if it would have helped.

Have you thought of the possibility

that great numbers of people have been bessed

with the ministry of Spirit and Truth International

and its desire and efforts in the Lord to see all men saved

and come unto the knowledge of the Truth?

I have simply tried to emphasize the many good and godly elements of John Lynn and S&T.

That You might find my views

lacking in wisdom,

and a glorification of demons,

doublemindedness etc...

well that just doesn't fly with me,

but I realize I know my heart better than you

and can understand how you might have come that point of view.

I mean, Bro,

Did you really think I was claiming to be a prophet with my choice of a Grateful Dead song for a name? !!

( I really have to think you were using some poetic license with that remark)

(( and that choice of names does indicate a lack of wisdom on my part ))

This is not much unlike the reaction I have received from the S&T Leadership

when I expressed a contrary point of view.

Or which I've experienced from the Way.

Or from John Lynn when I insisted that Dr. Weirwille was great Man of God.

But isn't that what happens when anyone does dare to challenge the status quo?

We are all well trained in magnifying the flaws and errors in one who dares challenge the popular position

and how to cut the offender to pieces.

I am not all that doubleminded Mark.

I simply and single heartedly

am striving to love what my Almighy God loves,

and to approve of what He approves of.

Yes I saw the bad fruit from the beginning,

but I found it not hard to feed on the genuine good fruit which was much more abundant.

I have never found an organization run by humans

that wasn't plagued by bad fruit to one degree or another.

We are all a work in progress.

even Apostles

And I am very glad for the good fruited nutrition

I've gleaned from your posts and others here at The Grease Spot.

I wish CES had listened to your concerns about prophesy.

It would have spared them all this anguish they are suffering now.

I share your views much more closely than you think.

I believe you are intent on expressing the Lord's opinions.

And you express them very well.

And what kind of brother would you or I be if we didn't jump all over each other once in a while.

Thats what brothers do.

So I have no regrets.

I'm just not as unaware of the problems as you might think.

Though I can be stubborn and bent to be contrary.

( perhaps from the pathologically anti authoritarian influnece of the Grateful Dead)

The S&T leadership has just made a very hard decision.

But I believe it was the right one.

They have demonstrated again that they will act in a righteous manner,

just as they did when they replaced John Lynn as president.

John Schoenheit will do a great job of bringing the ship back to an even keel.

I am glad you are calling them and giving them support.

So Hold Fast everybody

and pray for God's will to be done.

IThess. 5:20 is very clear.

" DO NOT DESPISE PROPHETIC UTTERANCES

BUT EXAMINE EVERYTHING CAREFULLY;

HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD"

and Gal 5:9

"AND LET US NOT LOSE HEART IN DOING GOOD

FOR IN DUE TIME WE SHALL REAP,

IF WE DO NOT GROW WEARY"

Peace

There-But- For Grace encouraged me to come back and learn what there is to be learned, and so I have.

Please forgive me for disconnecting, I simply don't have the time to be involved in these discussions. Grace decided to reconnect with me by P.M.ing me, and I really appreciate her love.

I have a a very good friend who warned me to stay away for my own good, and he was being wise. He knew it would hurt my heart. He was right.

Even though I was prepared for the reponse I still lost a good nights sleep sorting through it all,

and yes, I blame the wicked one for that.

I think will skip this dance.

I'm not going to go back and forth in doubtful disputations.

I can see who is orchestrating the dance and I don't like it.

That does not mean that I don't appreciate the genuine , godly elements of many posts.

I just see the same passion for Christ that oversteps its' bounds sometimes,

like has happened with the leadership of S&T, and misguidedly missed the mark.

I understand.

Will you forgive me if I have offended you in any way.

I am not alone in claiming that I have been very blessed with the teachings and fellowship opportunities provided by S&T over the years.

Why should that bother some of you?

After reading twenty something pages of attacking the integrity of my brothers in Christ and friends in the Faith I was compelled to speak up for them. They are really not as bad as this thread is making them out to be.

Perhaps thier sins and my sins seem to justify the need for open evil speaking,

but that is a sin too.

And for the record.

Evil influences do not excuse any of us for the wrong choices we make.

When I directed our attention to the spiritual realm it was to get to the root of the problem.

Also,

The name Estimated Prophet implies that I recognize my attempts to speak for Christ generally involves a degree of speculation. None of what I have written is what In would call "prophetic."

I also recognize that my affinity for the Grateful Dead is not likely to make a good impression on any one, but it does express a side of me I think you need to see. That Rock and Roll band has generated a culture of people (Cult?) which is another world unto itself.

It's impression on my soul cannot be denied regardless of all the Uncle Harry days I've celebrated.

but I digress...

Jesus Christ came to save sinners and reconcile us back to the Father.

He is able to purify us to be zealous of good works.

That is a process done in the goodness of God, in His unconditional Love,

and in the light of His Truth.

Our cooperation speeds up the process.

IJohn 1:1 addresses Christians and the sin factor in a very wonderful way.

My friend who warned me to stay away, who was wanting to protect my heart,

is someone who didn't speak to me for a good twelve years.

Our local leader had decided to rebuke me sharply before the whole church that my sin

(which I had openly owned up to for the purpose of getting right with God)

might be made known.

And then my closest friends wouldn't talk to me or my family any more.

Those wounds are healed, but most of those friendships are lost.

Why?

Was that process really necessary?

I can only speak what I have seen and heard.

I determined long ago that if my critics are right

and I am indeed bound for hell and deserve to be marked and avoided...

then I will point to Christ Jesus every step of the way

because I know he is our only hope for salvation.

That is why the break down in the CES pains me so much and weighs heavy on my heart.

Five years ago Mark and Dan were in town for a Time of Recociliation.

Now they will be opposing one another in a court of law.

How does that happen?

I have thought long and hard about it

and have to say the root cause is spiritual in nature

and it ain't holy spirit.

It's not my brothers in Christ who have destroyed relationships and such.

It is the same thief Jesus warned about in John 10:10.

and even if I sound paranoid,

it doesn't change the truth of God's Word.

Shall I defend the apostleship of John Lynn?

Shall I speak as a fool?

You can't deny that he has devoted his life to traveling the world,

teaching the bible,

and maintaining relationships with all the churches he has been called to minister to,

to the best of his ablity.

I am not the only one who has heard him teach

and found the Truth hit my heart like blasts of heat lightening.

I love those times.

In his sphere of influence his life has been on display,

and perhaps he has outdone the Apostle Paul

and become the "chiefest of all sinners"

The gifts and Callings of God are still without repentance.

God Bless Him !

I've had some very strong arguments with him, but he has never slammed the door in my face.

Jesus Christ is not ashamed to call him "Brother",

why should we?

And you who consider yourselves strong in the faith...

receive not them who are weak

unto doubtful disputations...

but receive one another

even as Christ Jesus has received you

(not imputing your tresspasses but cleansing you with his blood)

unto the glory of God.

Is that so hard to see and do?

Consider This.

"Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamour and slander

be put away from you

along with all malice

And be kind to one another, tender-hearted,

forgiving each other,

just as God in Christ has forgiven you."

Ephesians 6:32,33 NASB

I don't expect to make any more posts, so let me leave you with this.

Then I'll be on my way.

We are in a spiritual battle and we have an enemy who is playing for keeps,

he is lawless, he is cruel, and he is deceiving as all hell.

Our enemy is mot John Lynn

It is not Mark Graeser.

It is not Victor Paul Wierwille.

It is not the Scape Goat Du Jour

Our enemy is the spiritual wickedness in high places.

My intention is to speak words of truth and light that are mighty

to the pulling down of strongholds.

You can believe what you want,

but there is a demon of wrath and a demon of anger

and of slander and of malice.

There are seducing spirits

and deceiving spirits and accusing spirits

that are bent on the destruction

of you and me

and everything dear to the Almighty God.

If you listen to them long enough you will start to believe them.

When you start to believe them they will settle into your heart.

Then you'll start to smell and speak just like them.

Then we've got some real problems.

Deliverance is readily available, thank God.

To the degree that we believe and obey the truth is the degree to which the enemy will flee.

To that degree we will put off the works of darkness and put on the arnour of Light.

in his book, The Three Battlegrounds

Francis Frangipane warns how Lucifer was in the heavens when he fell

Adam was in Paradise when he fell.

Take heed lest you fall too.

Our stand begins with the name of Jesus Christ on our lips,

but to withstand the wiles of the wicked one

we must have

His divine nature established in our hearts.

If we give place in our hearts to the evil intents of the wicked one,

then love will grow cold and hearts will grow hard,

and there will be more traumatized lives and shattered dreams.

It may be well and good to recognize hurtful actions and words,

and criticise the sins of omission and commission.

It's a righteous thing to reprove, rebuke, and exhort

with all Longsuffering

but do it in the Wisdom from Above

and look deeper to see what manner of spirit is underlieing the deeds.

is it holy or unholy?

and you must look to your Lord Jesus in order to see the spiritual reality.

and you must follow his lead

to Stand Therefore, in the Power of His Might.

You can mark my words

or you can mock them.

You can call them flowery and beautiful and imply there is no substance,

that I am a waybrained parrot, a weak-willed host to mind controling cult leaders.

That doesn't make them any less true.

I forgive you.

you really don't know what you're saying.

I probablly remind you of someone else.

I am not offended.

I just wonder why.

I wonder why someone has a problem with a vision to provide Christian Education across the globe.

I wonder why the enmemy has found a way to get in and start to break up all the work towards accomplishing that vision.

I wonder what I could or should have done differently

that might have nade a godly difference.

I am grieved

and come to my Savior

to dwell in the fellowship of Light with Him

in the arms of my Father, God.,

and am cleansed again from all unrighteousness.

Come on In

The door is open

to anyone who wants to step out of the darkness

and into the Light and Love of Christ

and when I say

God Bless You

I Love You

You Are the Best

it's a message from the Christ in Me

to the Christ in You

It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance

and nothing shall separate us from His Love

Peace in Christ Jesus

and Glory be to The Father in Heaven

forever and ever

He teaces the Word without charge, Excathedra,

but it's $100.00 for a chiropractic treatment.

He is a superb teacher of the Word.

Check out www.FORHISGLORY.ORG

if you're interested in seeing the Truth through Hebrew Eyes.

Good Morning All

( Sprawled Out...maybe I'll see you at the Jubilee)

(( a Grateful Dead line in case any one's wondering))

Rascal, that's a very good point about who exactly is the Shepherd.

Back in the day

I actually bought into the notion that John was the big bad wolf.

We marked and avoided him and anyone who got near him,

(aside from the spys we sent out to take names)

all in the name of God.

John was actually om a mission to wake people

up so we'd see the light and quit acting like jerks.

not much unlike some of the posters here :)

his "Everything You Wanted to know About Fear

but Were Afraid to Ask"

is a classic teaching.

every PFAL Grad should listen to that.

likewise "Jeus Christ and Me"

When I finally did attend a meeting with him

he was very intent on proving that Jesus is not at all

absent from the body.

Thay made a huge difference for me.

Then I was marked and avoided too.

Crazy

Now, some 15 years later,

I think after getting so beaten down with doing damage control

from letting over opinionated people like me have at it,

that they fell right into the trap of trying to control the environment

and keep it from getting too out of line.

what a strange twist of fate

( and please forgive me if you consider the word 'fate' to be idolatrous')

Good Point Rascal.

Jesus Christ does know his sheep and how to keep them in line.

Do we really trust him to do that,

or must we insist on doing it our own way instead ?

Hello All

( not just 'most' but All who call upon Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior)

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback.

Not nearly as unpleasent as I had feared.

Yes, the name Estimated Prophet says something about me.

A. I am a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration who miss-spells words some times.

B. I believe I have the God Given ability to bring forth a word of prophesy...etc....

C. I am a huge fan of the Grateful Dead. ( kudos Sprawled Out )

D. All of the above

I said what I believed needed saying as well as I could.

I took time to consider what I wanted to say and what I did not want to say.

This is a heavy matter that goes deep in my heart.

Tonight is much more off the cuff.

I hear what you're saying as well,

and most of your concerns do need to be addressed

and I believe are being addressed.

Hebrews 12:25-29 hits the mark, in my estimation.

Our God is a Consuming Fire

I don't care to get into a discussion on specific detatils

such as what makes someone a prophet or apostle,

or what exactly is wrong with the flesh .

Not that I wouldn't love to, but I type slow.

I've been burned and insulted too.

I prefer to forgive it and move on.

There is a Messianic Jew who is a gifted teacher I like to listen to

who is also a chiropracter.

He says that there are at least a hundred different ways to fall down,

but only one way to stand up straight.

I like that

He also told me,

to my face in public,

that I am going to go to hell for not believing that Jesus is God the Son.

I didn't like that.

The biblical education I have received, primarily from the Way and then from CES,

as well as scores of other Christian Ministers enabled me to go to the bible

to see if I was going to hell or not.

I don't need to base my faith on the misguided ( though sincere)

declarations of a gifted speaker.

He and I did go to the bible together, but I found him entirely unreasonable about the trinity

The point is that not everything an apostle or a prophet or a teacher says and does is always going to be true.

Just because they are bound by a stronghold of deceit in one area or another does not prevent the Christ within them from manifesting himself.

I like when that happens.

I love all Christian ministry.

Like it or not, my faith is more at home with S&T than in any other church I've come across,

but it's not exactly a comfort zone.

I just believe Jesus Christ is able to purify his people to be zealous for Good works,

and the folks at S&T are all in favor of that as well.

God is working good things in His people all the time !

I love that the Catholic Church that I grew up in

had standing room only on Ash Wednesday last April.

Unbelievable!!

It wasn't because the Catholics are holding fast to the rightly divided Word.

There's all sorts of psyco-babble in their catecisms still.

It wasn't because the Catholics have done such a tremendous job of

squelching the abusive ways of some of their leaders.

St John's Church had standing room only on a Wednesday

because Father Steve is truely walking in the gift of God's Grace and Love

the best way he knows how.

and the people are being touched by the Master's Hand.

I've seen it.

John Lynn and John S and Mark G might have waited until they got it all straight in their hearts,

but I know they saw lots of sheep with no shepherd and wanted to do something to help.

All things considred,

they've done a remarkable job.

Now they need our love and support and prayers

and the words of reconciliation that we have been entrusted with.

Healthy criticsm too.

Say what you believe needs saying...

just say it with genuine love in Christ.

Peace and Love

Peace

I ventured to this forum to find out what was going on with The Spirit and Truth Int.

Now I would like to weigh in with my perspective, and pray it will resonate with the Christ within you as you read.

I must say that I am dismayed, though not surprised, with some of the antagonsim being expressed towards the CES/S&TF leadership.

Perhaps it is good to have an outlet to vent these frustrations and concerns and opinions , but I pray that as we consider these words

that the Lord Jesus Christ will give us understanding

and work within us to be conformed more and more to his image.

My relationship with CES has been very close at times and very distant at times.

When I tell you that I love , respect, and admire John Lynn and Mark Graeser and John Schoenheit and Dan Gallager ; please understand that I am not unaware nor ignorant of times where they may have missed the mark.

I will defer the final determination of all that to the righteous judge, Jesus Christ.

I recall quite vividly how John Lynn described ( as only John can do )

the challenge of striving to "Do Christiamity Right"

while being "All Covered with Flesh" !!

Yuk!

I consider John Lynn an Apostle and Teacher of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I Corinthians 4:9 describes an apostle as being a spectacle to the world and John epitomizes that scripture in my heart. Even his failures have taught me many good lessons.

I've heard a lot of people say a lot of bad things about John

but the worst things I have heard straight from John's mouth.

The way he bares his heart is what speaking the truth in Love is all about.

( even if he can be very stubborn and opinionated!!)

I can't imagine the grief John must have felt as he wrote this letter regarding the actions of his dearest and most trusted friends.

I have been on and off board the CES ship at various times,

yet I have always been impressed with their integrity and godly love.

They have always been intent on doing what is right in the eyes of God,

and I respect that intention whole heartedly.

A few years ago my marriage was in a very distressing state.

I think the only thing my wife and I could agree on was that we trusted John Schoenheit's perspective.

John very generously gave us great attention and invested his soul into saving our family.

Yes, there was a dose of what you might call psycho-babble,

but it was all being sifted though the Word of God and our combined godly perspectives.

It was a gut wrenching process.

A lot of those " he said I had my head up my butt and it hurt my feelings" sort of things.

Praise God that we are now more happily married than ever .

I give the Almighty God the glory for this.

I recognize how He was working through Christ in each one of us

to to bring about a healthy resolution.

I am very grateful to John S. especially for the way he ministered to us.

Likewise a number of other saints of S&TF served beautifully

just the way you would want the family of God to work by 'speaking the truth in Love.'

I dare say God has wrought much more good in people's lives

though The Sprirt and Truth Fellowship

than any harm that may have come through it.

But again I will defer that determination to the Righteous Judge.

I am praying passionately that the present situation will be addressed soundly

and will serve to succour and strengthen this great association of believers

in The Sprit and Truth Fellowship.

I believe the Lord Jesus has worked to bring them to a point of being able to make a huge impact in this troubled world.

I believe the enemy is out to destroy it all.

I believe the Captain of Salvation is at work to right the ship,

'throughly furnishing them unto every good work.'

If all goes well with them, then it will all go well with us

for we are all truely united together in Christ and His Redeeming Love.

...And I am praying for you, dear reader...

I can feel the pain of old wounds as I read some of your posts

and pray the Good Shepherd of your soul

will come alongside you

and minister to your heart

as only he can do.

( which is usually through broken saints)

I was wondering why you are here at the Grease Spot at all.

I believe that it is because you've had times experiencing

the touch of the Master's hand upon your heart

as you listened to the Word of Truth

being expressed by a gifted teacher in Christ,

I believe your heart yearns for more of those encounters with Christ,

in the fellowship of the Saints in Light,

and Christ Jesus surely yearns for more of them with you too.

Maybe that minister was Dr Victor Paul Weirwille, or Craig Martindale,

or John Lynn, or Mark Graeser;

or all of them and many others of the same kind at various times.

and then maybe one of them let you down and caused you pain.

betrayed your trust

it's the sincere ones that can really get you, you know.

They're all covered with flesh ,

just like you and me.

Welcome to the Family of God !!

Through it all you are and will always be

the Apple of The Father's Eye,

and He is already at work to tend to your every need

and has your road to Glory all mapped out.

Believe It

I once told John Lynn ( in the middle of a very agitated disagreement !)

that I would fight for him just like I do for Dr. Weirwille.

and that is what I have endeavored to do just now.

with a heart that is open like a sunflower to the sun

I conclude by saying

God Bless You

I Love You

You Are the Best

(because God made you that way in Christ)