Estimated Prophet

i realize im talking to myself now and im answering my own post.

Pond,

Thanks for sharing all that.

It sounds like you're coming rom that place where Deep cries unto Deep.

I can also see that you are more than just a little familiar with the goings on at CES.

I agree that God is more concerned with Why we do what we do than with What we are doing.

And That Love for God and Love for people is essential.

And as you said, God's Love and Grace is not limited to just those with "right knowledge",

and I have found the Body of Christ to be a huge and wonderful place.

I just pray that the S&T Board of Directors gets it all back into the sweet center of God's Love

and will Speak the Truth in Love more wonderfully than ever.

Everything wasn't bad, but you should see where the journey took me.

Hammer,

Someday , when we have the time (?)

I'd love to hear all about your journey.

Thanks for all of your posts.

I'm appreciating your heart the more I read them.

and after pondering all these posts,

I think it boils dowm to recognizing

"Jesus is the Lord"

and His way is best.

Most of the problems I've had are a result of obeying so called men of god ,

or so called prophets,

rather than Jesus Christ.

and Jesus never imposes his will upon us the way some of those so called people do.

He is content to let us make our own choices.

or so it seems to me today

Maybe they can squeeze into Jerry Jones's new stadium.

I know they wilt in July and Augyst, but that's no excuse.

The Florida Marlins have won two championships in a similar climate.

I still say it's a stupid rule !!

:)

but I agree that it is not going away any time soon!

Thanks for the feedback.

BTW

The new manager of the Texas Rangers, Ron Wahsington,

has got everyone excited about baseball.

I'm very hopeful that this will be their year!!

…Also I have a hard time accepting Gregg F’s theory of sometimes the holy message gets messed up before it leaves the prophet’s mouth – where is that in the Bible? It doesn’t appear they had that problem in the Bible. I think that opens the door for a lot of guesswork – and that also makes me wonder – how come God has such a hard time nowadays getting the right message out? If “what you speak remains God’s business,” that pretty much cinches it – whatever is said is of God - right? Forgive me if I sound skeptical…but I am…been burned too many times by stuff like this with TWI. Maybe it’s just me – but I don’t really understand what the purpose of personal prophecy is…and really have a hard time believing it’s credible.

( Welcome Kerke !)

T Bone,

I think it is very wise to be skeptical .

That does not mean there is not genuine prophecy inspired by holy spirit happening.

There is.

Unforumately there is false prophecy that stems from an over active imagination,

and some from an unholy spirit.

But there ain't nothing better than climbing up on the Father's lap so he can whisper in your ear.

That's what genuine prophecy is like for me.

As for Gregg F's theory.

Agabus the Prophet said the Jews would bind Paul.

It turned out the Romans bound Paul.

That's a bit of a mix-up, but the essence of the message was clear.

yep that is the attitude alright.

If they can not convince you , then they dismiss you completely.

and if you continue to discussion beyond thier boundaries set in stone, they will attack you on a very personal level. ....

Jesus Christ was NOT an outsider nor did he rebel against communities, He saved them and helped them and truly loved them. he NEVER dismissed anyone .

Pond,

I agree that Jesus was not an outsider to the house of Israel.

I don't see this as an "Us" and "Them" scenario either.

I see this as a family situation where we are all generally open and honest and ugly sometimes.

If I sound self righteous at times,

its only because my old man can be so ugly and hurtful.

He is really the one I wanted to dismiss from the discussion.

and I am not involved with CES,

so don't let my behavior exemplify what they are all about.

If my retort s on the keyboard offended you,

then you should see me in a face to face encounter of a frustrated kind !!

Very hurtful.

It's the stuff that gets me marked and avoided and sent off to hell.

Jesus Christ is my only hope.

( I just got back from a time of cleansing with Him !!)

I was disqualied from ministry long ago, and rightfully so.

( not by CES if that makes a difference )

and perhaps knowing what I've been forgiven for,

is why I have no problem forgiving John Lynn and Mark Graeser.

Peace

May I recommend something?

Both of you are normally a lot better than this recent exchange.

May I suggest a little time away from the keyboard, maybe a brisk walk, and indulging in another

activity before giving this a fresh look?

It's done wonders for me when I get frustrated..

You're right WordWof.

I'm sorry that I got out of line.

Please forgive me everybody,

especially you Sprawled Out.

"the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God"

I'm still working on putting that one into practice.

Take it to the Soap Opera S.O.

I'm not going back and forth with you any more.

"clutches?" your choice of words betrays your prejudice, Esty.

perhaps you should advise the apostle paul. i guess he suffered all those lashings, imprisonment, etc. under some other yoke.

EP, you seem like a nice guy (gal?), but for a deadhead, you're pretty caught up in all the rules and regs of christianity. feels pretty at odds with misfit power. hey, if the Dead were about anything (other than music), it was freedom. or perhaps more precisely, anarchy. why not let it shine, EP?

let it shine.

Dear S.O.

Ok.

Since you've made it clear that your comments are not in good fun...

1.

I am not prejudiced.

I think you would love to stone me, or throw me off a cliff,

if you could really get me in your "clutches".

(and just because I'm paranoid

doesn't mean everyone isn't out to get me)

Let me be Dead Serious.

" there may come a day I will dance on your grave.

If unable to dance then I'll crawl..."

J Barlowe

But you are right, I am at odds with the misfit power of the Grateful Dead

I've chosen the Way of Life and Peace.

I'm way beyond going back....sorry.

If you're not impressed, then that's your choice.

2. here are Paul's words regarding his fellowship in the sufferings of Christ:

" For our light affliction, which is but for a moment,

worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory:'' IICor 4:17

No complaints from him.

or don't you believe Jesus when he said

" for my yoke is easy and my burden is light" Matt 11:30

let it Shine?

" if therefore the light that is in the be darkness,

how great is that darkness? " Matt 6:23

and I am not a gal, so just forget about me having your baby.

....

" and if that Jubilee don't come

maybe I'll see you on the Run"

R. Hunter

I’m just curious - what’s the scriptural reference(s) that show personal prophecy provides direction? Do you view personal prophecy as having a big influence on your decision-making process?

Allow me to split a hair and say

prophecy is prophecy.

the word "personal" has been added and it is not found in scripture.

and "What You Speak"

remains God's business.

The bible never said only a "Gift Ministry"

is able to prophecy specifics.

"Joe Believer" is fully enabled and totally equiped to move in the power of holy spirit

even if he never heard of an Advanced Class.

A "certain disciple" named Ananais spoke a very precise Word to Saul of Tarsus

in Acts 9. He was also being directed by "this same Jesus", not the Father.

Very powerful Truth.

Here's another one:

Acts 13:2

" As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted,

the holy ghost said,

Separate me Barnabus and Saul

for the work whereunto I have called them"

and another,

( which is a clear example of where the prophecy didn't exactly happen as stated,

but was a genuine prophecy none the less.)

Acts 21:11

"...Thus saith the Holy Ghost.

So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man

that owneth this girdle,

and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles"

but we see in v 33 that it was the Romans who bound Paul

and delivered him from the hands of the Jews.

I recall Gregg Farriss (SP?) teaching how the message is holy when it leaves heaven,

but sometimes it gets messed up before it leaves the prophets mouth...

let him with eyes that see , and ears that hear,

understand in his heart

hey, EP--can you say "weasel?"

All in Good Fun....Right??

Can anybody tell me the purpose of the

"dropped third strike" rule?

Being an old catcher,

I think that one should be repealed.

Why should the batter get a chance to run to first after striking out?

just wondering

"...and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters..."

Gen 1:2

Good Insight People.

Good Heart.

I'm very curious about what the view is like at Camp Vision these days.

If they are willing to let the spirit move in them as you all are,

then great things will be happening.

regarding leadership...

I like the word "Overseer" meaning one who watches out for others.

Also "Servant" meaning one who supports another.

CaribouSam:

Don't let these guys bother you.

I appreciate what you're saying.

Peace

OakSpear:

and you'd make a great DeadHead

Someday I'd like to have a long talk with you

"clutches?" your choice of words betrays your prejudice, Esty.

perhaps you should advise the apostle paul. i guess he suffered all those lashings, imprisonment, etc. under some other yoke.

EP, you seem like a nice guy (gal?), but for a deadhead, you're pretty caught up in all the rules and regs of christianity. feels pretty at odds with misfit power. hey, if the Dead were about anything (other than music), it was freedom. or perhaps more precisely, anarchy. why not let it shine, EP?

let it shine.

Drat !

and Double Drat !!!

I find myself in the clutches

of the deviously dancing Sprawled Out !!!

Pinned by my own words !!

oh the shame

where is my super power

just when I need it the most

I must escape before I subcome to Anarchy !!

( my mother was afraid this would happen )

Ahhh... I get it now EP! I was never a Dead fan, more Airplane, Hendrix, Joplin, etc.

I think with a name like EP and ranting your first post, people may have thought you have come to set us all straight.

No problem, I understand :)

Groovy

" I ain't often right but I've never been wrong,

it seldom works out the way it does in a song

Once in a while you can get shown the Light

in the strangest of places if you look at it right"

Robert Hunter

could have fooled me.

What did she speak?

Spiders and such, protecting the "ministry" from the evils of J.L.'s then wife?

What I'd like to see, is the files of other "prophecies" and dreams they have stored away. I think this little convenient bit of information is the tip of quite a large iceberg.

I wonder if the office shredders are working overtime.

No Fooling Hammer,

Karen Ann prophecied once over me,

and the Word prepared me for what was to come.

It was "Right On"

I Cor 14 and IJohn 4:1 are two places in particular

that advise caution when considering prophecy.

I still hold to the notion that God will reveal to you first His will,

and genuine prophecy thus reminds you of what He's been saying all along,

and the prophetic Word resonates with the revealed Word of the holy spirit within.

We are all learning good lessons.

I mainly keep learning I'm not as smart as I used to think.

So I hold on tighter

and try to walk a little closer with my Lord.

OK...On one hand, I don't want to beat these guys to death and dance on their graves...but on the other hand I take extreme exception when I see sincere people getting bamboozeled, while the top folks get their egos stroked.

Forgive the leaders of CES/STIF ?...Sure, I can forgive them...but the real question here is are they any longer qualified to be considered "Christian leaders"???

I mean, how many cults do you have to be in before you hit bottom?

I think if their qualifications were based solely on what is mostly being reported here,

then I can understand how one would take extreme exception to their leadership.

By "them" I am asuming you are referring to the S&T Board of Directors and their ordained clergy members.

However...

I hold John Schoenheit's integrity in the highest regard

and can not think of a more qualified Christian to man the wheel.

I've been a guest in his home and he in mine.

He measures up to Timothy and Titus as well as anyone I know.

I have had a good deal of time and experience with him with which to base my opinion.

Honest

I believe there is more good being accomplished by this minisrty that has been reported here.

Dr. Juede's report was very susinct in addressing certain problems,

but that does not refute the many genuine blessings that have been accomplished.

And Prophecy is indeed very biblical.

This is not a cult.

This is not a Santa Clause fantasy.

and honestly Pond,

I don't know of any one who actually thinks God would love them less for withdrawing from S&T.

No one I know thinks they are the only source of knowledge of the Truth.

I'm not even on their mailing list,

and haven't been directly involved in S&T for three years.

Yet I still have a very healthy relationship with all my friends still involved.

It's not a matter of being bamboozled,

It's simply a matter of loving what our Almighty God Loves.

and I take Extreme Exception to the abusive language and evil suspicions

directed against good people.

A good friend once taught...

You don't get out of the muck and the mire

by looking at the muck and the mire

while pointing to the light.

you get out of the muck and the mire

by looking at the Light

and pointing to the light.

or as Wayne Dyer says

If you change the way you look at things

the things you look at will change.

Peace

Chill out, enjoy our discussions, get to know us.

Don't come here in your "prophet" persona, be yourself.

It's cool.

and I am not a Prophet.

My name was supposed to be a bit of a joke

because I knew my first post was one of my high and mighty rants.

But my opinions are strictly my own .

The Estimated Prophet is a song by the Grateful Dead.

It was inspired by a raving Jesus Freak , as well as the book of Ezechiel.

It has also inspired me for nearly 30 years now as well.

So the name suits me on a number of levels.

My posts have sprung out of a deep level of my heart,

so please excuse me for coming on strong.

and with a name like Sunesis,

I trust you understand

Right On Grace!

God is doing Great Things in His People!!

The GSC is a general discussion board, primarily for twi and twi survivors.

Some of those survivors are currently Christian, some are not.

All are welcome to participate in the discussions.

Politeness is requested and appreciated, and sometimes is even received! :)

There's no doctrinal requirement for participation.

Understood.

Please forgive, Oakspear,

If my words seemed harsh.

I was just surprised by your statement.

I stand by what I said,

but with no ill will for you.

Really.

I will also add that from your posts I can see your rules, or standards,

seem quite positive and constructive.

you'd make a Great Christian !!

Thanks for sharing,

and God Bless You

The main beginning is that no more will an inner circle hurt the people it deals with. I've repeatedly said that public sin requires public repentance. It will take time, but at least they have begun (to use my words) to wake up...to many things. Your prayers would be appreciated.

I'm glad to hear they are making progress.

I believe that once they've come through the fire then The Sprit and Truth Fellowship International

will be a powerful vehicle for carrying the message and power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

A place where He truely is Lord, where the people genuinely hold him as their Head.

also

It's good that they are listening to their followers,

(and I also have received positve feedback from Mark and John L and Dan and John S.

Believe me . None of them likes seeing anybody get hurt.)

But I pray they are more intent on listening to the Master.

Well, he's not my Lord anyway. But seriously, what does Jesus have to do with whether someone should discuss what they put up on a discussion forum?

Jesus is not your Lord?

Thanks for letting me know.

Then you can play by your own rules if you like.

He has everything to do with my life.

I do my best to play by his rules.

Well, since you asked.....

[WordWolf in brackets and boldface as usual.]

Let's talk WW

My attempt to quote you didn't work,

so I have cut and pasted your comments .

I will respond in kind in [[ double brackets]]

>>

I respectfully disagree.

[You have a right to do so.]

[[ Cool ]]

Who made the rule that CES leadership should post their opinions here

and engage in the dialogue?

[With respect, brother, you're asking the wrong question.

Here's a little background.

Some people came out of twi, where open discussion was forbidden.

Some of them-who formed ces/stfi- began with open discussions,

and a public messageboard online.

Then they shut down the public messageboard online.

No more open discussion.

[[ I was unaware of CES providing such a forum]]

The question is "Why has open, public discussion become forbidden

in ces/stfi like it was/is in twi?"

[[ 'Forbidden ' is a strong word.

I don't see any S7T people being forbidden from

enetering this discussion]]

They are free to run their OWN board and moderate their OWN discussions

like they did BEFORE. The reason the discussions ended up HERE is the same

reason twi discussions ended up here- by DEFAULT. They refused to do so,

and there remained a perceived need for open discussion.

(You may not perceive a need for open discussion. I perceive one,

and consider it a necessary part of healthy organizations-

if any organization can be considered 'healthy'.)

[[Agreed

I especially like being able to interrupt you here

without being rude (?)

or disturbing your train of thought as you express yourself]]

So, no one said there is a RULE that ces/stfi need have open discussions

ANYWHERE. However, their refusal to do so raises some interesting questions.

This is no guarantee of wrongdoing or malfeasance, but these are things

that make some people go "Hmmmm...."

[[ Hmmmm....

( which is sometimes the sound of the manifestation of a Word of Wisdom !)

but I do think some people may need to be reminded that no rules have been broken

at least to quell some of the animosity]]

There is neither a rule that they must dialogue HERE even if nowhere else.

However, they seem to have no difficulty playing with, and finessing the

concept. JAL made a press release for posting here, wrote in it

"this is not for posting online", insulted the people who post here,

and had the nerve to pretend to be surprised that it ended up here.

You may consider it "plausible deniability", but I call it "thinly-veiled hypocrisy."

If the "thin veil" fooled you and convinced you he really didn't write it

EXPECTING IT to end up here, that's on you. I suspect you possess more wit

than that.

[[ Careful !

My wife will gladly tell you I can be very gullible.

but I do recogmize John was aware his words would be read on line

and gave his permission for them to be posted here.

but really Wolf,

there are a lot of insults flying around here.

Are we going to let them lead to more misunderstanding and resentment

or to understanding and kinship?

I know I was at first disturbed by this dialogue,

and didn't want to participate.

Now I've made some adjustments in attitude

( thanks to God working in His people)

and its very Cool.

But it is teaching me the art

of walking circumspectly.

and forgive me for not responding to your earlier posts,

but your words are something of a mountain to climb and explore]]

At the same time, the notice IN the internet press release that he

wasn't going to communicate by internet is hypocrisy- going out by internet

as intended. He communicates by internet in the fashion that suits him-

by press release- and NOT in the manner that would encourage open communication-

by messageboard dialogue. At the same time, he says he's not communicating

by internet in any form. Those are 2 things people complain about.]

[[ Valid points.

all I can say is "Hmmmm...." ]]

I don't believe that's comiing from our Lord Jesus.

[i don't need revelation or a precise Bible verse to know when someone's

blowing smoke up my sit-upon.

Jesus warned against those who liked the chief seats.

Paul warned against those who set themselves up as lords over God's heritage.

Further,

I'd go out on a limb and say that-if Jesus was walking around here now, he'd be

using the internet as well. He dialogued with people openly all the time.

On the other hand,

squelching discussion, sitting on news,

I for one don't believe THAT comes from our Lord Jesus, either. ]

[[ I agree that our Lord Jesus does not go about squelching discussions.

I have always believed that it is the Supressing of the Truth

that leads to deception.

With genuine freedom to express ourselves

we can see the bigger picture,

and what is right and true and good

becomes very clear to see.

And I will say as one who has listened to John Lynn for the past 15 years,

he tries very hard not to lord it over people.

I think he recognizes his passion causes that to happen at times,

but I think he tries to not let that happen.

But John is wired to be very assertive.

That's how he functions.

I don't always agree with him,

nor he with me,

but I love him for being genuine.

You can call it hypocrisy if you want,

but I won't.

He just said his communication will be One on One.

And I have no idea how he finds the time and energy

to maintain communication with as many people as he does.

I really don't think he has the time to give the Grease Spot the time and attention it demands.

Half baked posts get crucified around here in short order I dare sayI]]

I will even say that Christian Educational Services

freed me from the yoke of having to live up to other people's expectations,

and all those man-made rules and reg's.

[That's wonderful.

And I learned some good stuff in twi.

Which did nothing to excuse them from ruining the lives of others.

So, how many "success stories" does it take to excuse the lives

ruined because some people were railroaded into Momentus,

or someone leaned on them with "personal prophecy", public ridicule

USING "personal prophecy", or both?

[[ Those are strong words Wolf

perhaps valid in some cases.

It doesn't take ' stories success' to justify or excuse the harm that was done.

It takes the Cross.

and I know you know that.

I think we all need to learn to distinguish between the will of God and the will of man

and then find the wisdom and inner strength

to swim against the current when need be.]]

Please note that I consider this a trick question.

I don't consider ANY number of personal anecdotes of "success stories"

to excuse those who call themselves leaders from ruining lives of

ANY of the people they ACCEPTED RESPONSIBILITY FOR.

However, if you think differently, feel free to tell me how many lives

can be exchanged for how many lives.]

[[ As I said

One life is all it took in exchange for the many.

That is why the Cross is So Powerful

( which the Way never seemed to fully apprciate. )

but I do believe your indignation is righteous,

and grieve with you for the harm that came to those you obviously love.

and I know we will all be held accountable for every word and deed.

The Lord has never tolerated False Prohets.

There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth at the judgement seat.

and for those of you who have been burned,

The Chief Shepherd, Jesus, is faithful to come to your side and bring healing and wholeness.

It's a process that will not be completed

until we put off this corruptible body

and put on incorruption

at His Return.

But it's a process that always gives us hope.

and even in the wounds you have suffered

he will reveal his redeeming love that is poured out in your heart.

and he will take that affliction and work it into an eternal weight of Glory.]]

So if it bothers you that JL or MG or JS aren't here every day like some of us

just let it go.

[That's misrepresentative of our positions. Few, if any, expect any of them to

be here regularly. I certainly don't.]

[[fine]]

Its very liberating.

[Most of us who are counselling caution are quite liberated, thank you for the

concern. We don't lose sleep or get hypertension over where any of them

post or don't post, for that matter.]

[[ very well,

but I have a strong sense that many may be carried by their caution

to a point where they are losing their peace.

perhaps using their liberty to bite and devour

I know I can't speak for anyone else,

but I do know I have had to battle for peace and for the high ground.

as I've read through this dialogue

I don't think I am alone.

and I don't regret my presence here. ]]

and if you really want their point of view

just call or write them.

[Which is a LOT better than a vacuum of communication.

However, it falls FAR short of OPEN COMMUNICATION-

which was one of our main complaints from the beginning.

And at least one person tried that-using their legal name-and got no response.

Which means there's no guarantee that will work.]

[[ nope

no guarantees.

But our Lord knows how to make each of us stand,

so keep your eyes on Him,

and trust Him to straighten out those who are weak in the Faith. ]]

Peace

[I'm all for peace. I can get behind that.

I'm not that keen about "let's pretend there's no problems and we'll pretend that's

peace". If that's something you mean, then I can't get behind it.]

[[ I like you Mr. WordWolf.

I don't mean to pretend there are no problems.

I just want to focus on what's right and good.

thanks for talking with me.]]

You know what is really sad? People actually believe this.. I'm not saying you do EP, but I'd sure beware. That some man made ministry ran and overseen by fallible humans is what actually freed them.. And so to many, that must mean God is working in this fleshly endeavor so I can put my believing, faith, and trust in it..

What a load of man made ^%$@#&^#

No wonder people let themselves be led so blindly. They replace what really helped, saved, and freed them with something that has just a small resemblance of godliness. And soon the blinders go on until the next thing you know, they are following man rather than God..

How hard is it to understand that God has chosen the base things and the foolishness of this world to lead men back to him?! And hard is it to understand that we don't follow those base and foolish things but only our Lord and Savior and His God. Praise God he was able to use such things to free you, but that really doesn't lend any credance to how godly the man made organization is, any more than all the other man made orginisations that help people to know their Lord and Savior every day while behind the scenes they put in bondage, molest the weak, murder the wise, and kill the innocent.

I hear you , Trust and Obey

and I've learned the hard way that we need to try the spirits

and see if they are of God.

and that it's the sincere people that can really trick you

and we all carry our own load of ^%$@#&^#

and some how God still loves us

and The Real You keeps shining through.