RainbowsGirl

RG,

That was nicely stated. Let me ask you a question. When you read that we are to give an answer with meekness and fear. . . . what does that mean? When you say the spiritual battle between man and God is to believe the SCRIPTURES as true or not. . . . what does that mean?

It means to give an answer with meekness and fear, knowing that the whole of GOD cannot even be contained in His Word...How often I have spoken of His LOVE, Grace and mercy and Forgiveness. Recognizing that all have fallen short of the glory of GOD, To All he shows His Love and All have feelings and have been abused and continue to be abused in many hurtful ways...Including me!!!. It means to choose to believe GOD by knowing Him and having a relationship with Him; to believe His testimony, the evidence of His Word both written and practised; or to believe as you choose to believe or to define GOD as you choose to define Him. The battle is saying what GOD testifies of Himself is alterable to what You choose and that it is okay to alter ones own perception of His Word or GOD; that he doesn't care if we do this...that His integrity is within the questionings, standards and judgments of mankind.

Isn't what happens sometimes. . . .is that a Christian can ending up preaching the scriptures instead of preaching what is in them? Isn't a Christian really suppose to share their faith about Jesus?

It isn't wrong to preach, or to teach, or to pastor, or to walk in Love, grace forgiveness and empathy. etc...in full knowledge that GOD alone is the ONLY Righteous Judge. It is a God given responsibility. Preaching, teaching, pastoring and sharing are all essential if done in GOD's LOVE.

I have always had a loving relationship with GOD even when I knew nothing much about him, I knew not to blame Him. I knew to trust Him. I knew that He is my Heavenly Father and that He is more Loving, Wise, All knowing and capable than I or anyother man could ever totally understand!!! Within the relation with Him, He has taught me with His Love, by His demonstrated example and with scripture. Only in a relationship of Love do you truly see a heart. As pointed out this is a forum for discussion of many diverse viewpoints and beliefs. I know only what they express to me, although I give their hearts, lives and experiences much Love and respect...whether it is seen or not seen. Often that is far more than I receive back. I give my best in Love!!!

The bible is our source. . . .but not our source of hope. It is what is written within. It is the reality behind the words. Sometimes, especially when people have been abused with the scriptures. . . they are angry about them. No? Make sense?

True!!!

Paul reasoned with people from OUT of the scriptures. . . he didn't reason the scriptures with them. Acts 17. . . he identified to reason with them.

I do both!!!

Jesus actually had to reprove the Pharisees for their worshiping of the laws or the SCRIPTURES. . . He reproved them for missing the whole point.

They were angry people who passed a lot of judgments while reciting long strings of passages.

I don't worship the Word of GOD. I worship GOD!!!

Conversly, the woman at the well, even she could recite scripture(The law). Jesus had to declare who He was to her. . . to gently and tenderly show her that she was missing it. The main point of the story and His confrontation with the pharisees was I AM.

Depending upon the circumstance Jesus Christ and His apostles and disciples did both, by example, demonstration and quoting scritures... It is written...He preached the word, He taught the Word, and demonstrated the Word. He send out His disciples to do the same and to pastor them in Love. He held them accountable in the responsibilities he gave them as well!!!

The worship of God not only has to be consistent with scripture, but it must be centered on the word made flesh who revealed the Father. Jesus didn't say the bible is the way -- the --truth--the life. . . . He said He was.

This in NO way discredits the "Word" but it places worship in its proper position. . . on a person, not leather and ink.

That is a heavy accusation to lay at anyone's feet. If You are alluding that I worship leather and ink; I can defend myself and say that I don't. I am known by my fruits which you may or may not see. GOD knows and that is enough for me!!!

Before an attorney can try a case, they have to build a case. . . sometimes this can be a lengthy process. . . it can even begin with the credibility of the evidence. That can be a detailed process. If we are trying to win a case. . . we have to understand what it is we are trying to defend.

True by GOD and Jesus Christ are Supercedant and Superior to any of man's abilities and not under the same limited constraints; and even this is based on need, circumstances and conditions and the member of the body of Christ's particular abilities, knowledge and experiences. We ALL are imperfect, we all fall short...that is why we are not appointed judges...too big and too important a job for any man to even consider. Only GOD is perfect and judges absolutely rightly!!!

With the gospel. . . it is that the bible is true. . . and that we just have to believe it? Is that really what the gospel is?

It is in part that and the example and demonstration of GOD's Love!!!

It is the message contained within. That this is God's plan for humanity. We can actually tell this story, without quoting a single verse. And sometimes we even have to begin with the reasonableness of one truth. Sometimes we have to begin sharing the gospel by looking at a thought process and what truth is? MAke sense?

Sometimes!!! But without the knowledge where is wisdom and understanding to even know!!!

I think that to present a loving God to someone who has been in a situation like we all have. . . . we have to love them, respect that they differ, and reason out why WE accept these things to be true. Not just that they are. Call me crazy.

I think presenting a whole GOD is even greater and even more necessary and even more timely!!!

Man's great spiritual battle with God, is not that the bible is true. . . it is if they accept Jesus as Lord to accept a relationship with Him. That they accept Jesus as the only way.

That is done both with and with scripture as addressed above!!!

But the whole point is. . . . God so LOVED the world that He did this. It is a stunning story with great hope and depth and staggering sacrifice. It really is the greatest story ever told. What is important is the meaning of it. . . . the heart behind it. . . . the author of the book.

Without evidence and testimony it can certainly be perceived as only a story, only a doctrine,only a religion, etc.....

Consider this. . . we can end up worshiping our knowledge of God limited to what we have been able to grasp thus far in our study of the word. . . . that is why Paul had to say the depth and riches of Christ are beyond understanding . . . . this is why we worship Him, not our knowledge of Him. . . knowledge fails.

True. I am very secure in my Worship of GOD - with All my Heart, soul, mind and strength...not my own reasonings nor understanding!!!

Congratulations to You both!!!

Enjoy the Journey;leading and walking with and following Your child through all the many stages of growth!!!Every moment is precious in its own way!!!

It's unfortunate that no one has of yet found away to bottle the unique smell of a beautiful newborn baby; yet it is still a smell that your heart always will keep and remember!!!

In my view the argument is not as black & white as God vs. Man. Who physically wrote the bible? Man. There's no more reason to suppose that the bible is THE Word o' God than any other of a number of "holy" books. To me it's not God on one side and men on the other, but men in an inumerable number of corners, got maybe in all of them, some of them, or maybe none of them.

It is my belief and understanding that it is GOD's Word; Not all believe GOD; but I am convinced and believe HIS testimony concerning Himself and HIS Word!!!

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Me thinks that Rainbow Girl is angry for some reason. ... Sounding upset today?

My moniker is RainbowsGirl, Garth :)

No, Not really... but, I am a little sad that people need to respond with self validating techniques, misrepresentations, mischaractizations, quoting only exurbs and para phrasings that are taken out of context to validate themselves or their opinions. I never have had any respect for those types of techniques

So not having a relationship with God now becomes the ultimate, infinite sin!!, huh? ... Wow!! :unsure: Ya know, when I usually think of the meaning and understanding of the word 'sin', I usually think of associated and related concepts like, 'immoral', 'unethical', 'vile', 'wrong', and the like attributes that depict, ... ohh what's the word I'm looking for, ... Oh yeah, ... evil! (And as you probably know, a *lot* of Christians think this way too. <_< )

Garth,

GOD's absolute and unvarying Will to me is completely valid; and it completely matters to me. It far out weighs anyone's man made or conceived opinion I am not accusing You or anyone of being evil, sinful, or immoral.

According to the Word of GOD...He alone is the judge, I do believe that You are wrong concerning GOD strictly from a purely biblical viewpoint. I use scripture to state GOD's Word, Will and Way. Within the scripture is GOD's doctrine reproof and correction. If my quoting scripture convicts or upset anyone, then it is the scripture itself speaking and it is not my responsibility to instruct anyone is the full and complete Word of GOD; most particularly those who oppose GOD and HIS Word. Neither do I condemn them as I am not GOD. Without a desire to know and understand GOD many will be lost that have had the free will to chose.

My hope is that everyone considers deeply what they believe and considers deeply who GOD really is and what is really HIS Will and All of what He Really can and will do.

That is a CS Lewis quote from the article that Geisha send me (Paul Coplan's statements are in italic in post #1)...it has a lot of bearing but in MHO is not the full weight of GOD's word speaking. I did my best to separate the article out and add the relevant scriptures, that apply.

No Garth I will never understand why so many men relegate GOD to such an inferior position and allege that He is cruel or hateful or unjust etc.! So inferior as to put themselves above HIM!!! I also don't understand reading only what you want to read and reading into what is clearly stated, or not reading at all or merely attacking.

A person becoming evil , and that for no better reason than not having a relationship with your God, huh? I mean, that's what it would have to boil down to, wouldn't it? We're freekin' evil.

It is GOD's requirement that You believe HIM...If He isn't right You have no problem; If He alone is right then You have a huge insurmountable and unrectifiable problem

Have you ever *asked* anyone of us evil people _why_ we no longer/have ever wanted any relationship with this deity of yours? ... Huh? Have you? ... Or have you just _presumed_ (assisted by the unquestionable dictates of scripture, of course) why us evil people have rejected God, and that we did so in such a prideful and capricious manner?

I do not know why anyone personally rejects GOD....varying reasons I suppose; as well as there are varying reasons why people who love GOD do so with unwavering committment...and I might add are also ridiculed and attacked for it.

I have compassion and empathize individually with people and in most cases with the state of mankind and our dilemmas as I am an imperfect person myself; but one who absolutely believes that GOD is who that He says that He is!!! My hope is to represent the finality of rejecting GOD, so that it is truly and deeply considered... I Love GOD and He wants all men to be saved out of HIS Love. It is a choice. If You work at trying to dissect GOD and see only what You want to see then You no longer have GOD. You instead have what You want...in essence what You choose!!! This is more clearly stated in one of my posts in this thread

The answers might surprise you. I know it did me when I was first getting to know various atheist individuals. And there was a helluva lot more to it than this same ol' tired yarn about how they simply don't want to submit to any Higher Authority and wanting to "be their own gods".

I have reasons not to share Your opinion of GOD for I have a relationship with HIM and no one ever has exceeded HIS LOVE in my life

Really!

GOD is absolutely black and white, truly and thoroughly unwaveringly objective about what he says; Where on the other hand most men are not...that is the reason for the gulf between man and GOD!!!

Man likes to be his own god and/or hew out his own gods, and live by his own rationales, ideologies, religions, and justifications.

Jesus Christ is GOD's solution. Man's solution is to innovate their own individualized solutions!!!

How You use your free will choices are entirely up to you; that won't change one iota or jot and tittle of GOD's Word, HIS Ways or HIS Acts!!!

Have a Nice Man's Day!!!

Why Would A Good God Send People To An Everlasting Hell?

1. What is hell?

Not a place of high thermal output (though some conservative scholars disagree) but being “away from the Lord’s presence” :

2Th 1:6

Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 1:11

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2Th 1:12

That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ

(2 Th 1:9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;-cut off from intimate union with God (Rev 21:3; & Rev 22:4 :

Rev 21:1

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:2

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Rev 21:4

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 22:3

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Rev22:4

And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.

Rev 22:5

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 22:6

And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:7

Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Hell’s darkness and flames (which, if literal, would cancel each other out) are figurative, portraying anguish and hopelessness without God. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41)-:

Mat 25:41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Spirit beings, which are unaffected by physical fire.

Let’s address some hell-related questions that unbelievers and believers find troubling.

2. “Isn’t God unjust to punish persons forever for sins committed during a limited earthly existence?”

Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis).

3. “But wouldn’t persons in hell really want to be with God if they knew what hell is like?”

No. Those who have resisted God on earth continue in their hard-heartedness thereafter (just as those living for God on earth continue to enjoy him). God’s holy presence would truly be “hell” for those wanting their own way. We have no hint from Scripture of repentance in hell Rebellion, hate, and selfishness continue. The rich man in Hell (Luke 16:19-28) is remorseful, not repentant-not wanting to change, but to find relief!

Remorseful: A strong feeling of guilt and regret.

Repentant: 1. To be Sorry - To recognize the wrong in something that you have done and be sorry about it. 2. To Change – To feel regret about a sin or past action and change your ways or habits

Rebellious: 1. Opposing or defying authority – Opposing or defying authority, accepted moral codes or social conventions. 2. Fighting to overthrow government or authority – fighting to overthrow government or other authority…rebellion against GOD is idolatry

Idolatry: 1. Idol worship – The worship of an idol or false gods. 2. Extreme admiration – Excessive admiration or love shown for someone or something

Luk 16:19

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luk 16:20

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:21

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 16:22

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

Luk 16:27

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luk 16:28

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Thus we testify for GOD and pray genuinely out of Godly love for all!!! (RG)

4. “But how can people be sent to hell without knowing it’s full implications?”

Even if one isn’t fully aware of hell’s anguish, this doesn’t mean our choice is too much to bear. God is ready to equip anyone for salvation (John 16:8):

All will be made aware, All Will have freely chosen beforehand!!!

Jhn 16:1

These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

Jhn 16:2

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Jhn 16:3

And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Jhn 16:4

But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Jhn 16:5

But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

Jhn 16:6

But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

Jhn 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jhn 16:8

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jhn 16:9

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Jhn 16:10

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

Jhn 16:11

Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Jhn 16:12

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Jhn 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

All will be made aware, All Will have freely chosen beforehand!!!

Though the full consequences of our embracing or rejecting God aren’t fully apparent to us now, grace to choose responsibly is available to all. What prevents the salvation of everyone? Individuals’ choosing freely to reject God’s grace. We can always resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51 - 60).

Act 7:51 Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your father’s persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].

Act 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

Act 7:58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

God doesn’t send people to hell; they freely reject him, condemning themselves by not acknowledging their guilt. (Unto true repentance!!!)

5. “Why didn’t God make the world in such a way that all people would love him?”

While a world in which everyone loves God is theoretically possible, it is not feasible. Whatever possible world with free creatures God could create, it may be that none is sin-free, and God’s love isn’t forced. Hell-the absence of God’s presence-exists because, like Milton’s Satan, people would rather “reign in hell than serve in heaven.” God isn’t unloving but rather has gone to great lengths to show grace to everyone. Should God not create at all because many freely resist Him in the world God created and thus deprive many others of the greatest good possible?

6. “Why did God create people He knew would reject and be separated from Him forever?”

Rom 9:22

[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

2Cr 4:7

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

2Ti 2:20

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

Hbr 9:21

Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

Rev 2:27

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Despite God’s desire that all be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), many still resist.

7. What if some become more resistant no matter how loving God is?

Isaiah 5:4; & Matt 23:37?

Isa 5:4

What could have been done more to my vineyard that I have not done in it? Wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Mat 23:1

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

Mat 23:2

Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Mat 23:3

All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Mat 23:4

For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.

Mat 23:5

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

Mat 23:6

And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

Mat 23:7

And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

Mat 23:8

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Mat 23:9

And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Mat 23:10

Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

Mat 23:11

But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Mat 23:12

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Mat 23:13

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mat 23:14

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mat 23:15

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:16

Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Mat 23:17

[Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Mat 23:18

And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

Mat 23:19

[Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Mat 23:20

Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

Mat 23:21

And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

Mat 23:22

And he that shall swear by heaven sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

Mat 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mat 23:24

[Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Mat 23:25

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Mat 23:26

[Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Mat 23:27

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

Mat 23:28

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Mat 23:29

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,

Mat 23:30

And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

Mat 23:31

Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

Mat 23:32

Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Mat 23:33

[Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat 23:34

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:

Mat 23:35

That upon you may come all the righteous bloodshed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 23:37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Mat 23:38

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Mat 23:39

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

8. Should God not create those who would respond to His love simply because others would refuse it?

Luk 11:2

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

God’s will supersedes mankind’s will both selectively and collectively; whether we regard it believe it, or fully understand it!!!

Luk 11:3

Give us day by day our daily bread.

Luk 11:4

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

9. What if God created a world in which a maximal balance of least condemned and most redeemed was realized?

This is not unloving. He is all knowing ever present and omnipotent. What we do and decide to do with our Free will is known from the beginning to the end by the Alpha and Omega. He sees from the outside of time and space contingencies and restrains, the boundaries given to man, because our knowledge and wisdom is limited and finite (RG.)

Jud 1:21

Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jud 1:22

And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Jud 1:23

And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25

To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

1Ti 1:9

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1Ti 1:11

According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

1Ti 1:12

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

1Ti 1:13

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

1Ti 1:14

And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 1:15

This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1Ti 1:16

Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1Ti 1:17

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

10. “Why wouldn’t God, from the start, make us like heavens saints-loving God while unable to sin?”

“Even Angels and heavens host have free will! The Devil and a third of the angels fell for trying to usurp the throne of GOD. Every idol that mankind puts before GOD is at enmity with the only true Holy Creator and only REAL GOD!” (RG.)

Exd 20:1

And God spake all these words, saying,

Exd 20:2

I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Exd 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exd 20:4

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Exd 20:5

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;

Robust freedom on earth-to embrace freely God’s grace or resist it-is a requirement for arriving at one’s final destiny. Our earthly direction is “sealed” in the afterlife; our heart’s desire is finally granted-God or no God. So God couldn’t have created a heaven-like state in which the redeemed no longer sin without damaging this vitally important freedom. (Or perhaps, rather than “sealing” us from sin in the afterlife, God simply foreknows that no saint will actually freely sin, guaranteeing a sin-free condition in the final state.) Finally, because God has so fully given of Himself to make salvation freely available through His Son, we can confidently entrust any lingering questions about hell to His excellent character.

By: Paul Copan ( is in Italicized blue print excerpts)

Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis).

This bears repeating

Yes a Good GOD will absolutely do as He says He will do! He will do this for perfectly just reasons, that are higher than a total accummulation of all mankind's, in total, reasonings, religions and ideologies...simply because HE is the Creator, The Alpha and the Omega, the only wise GOD and All knowing and All powerful!!!

He has and continues to demonstrate His LOVE and will unto the end

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Oak,

This is not personal so please don't take it that way. I thought I read you are a neopagan? Is that right?

The bible is very well documented more than any other ancient book. They would have been very careful in copying it down. We have more copies than any other old book. We are even finding more.

What is it you trust so about the oral tradition in Paganism that leaves some much room for doubt in the written documents we have for the bible?

Who said they were personal problems. Geez...Abigail was making a general observation...regarding the doctrinal discussion.

Oak,I was not addressing Abigail, and I stand by my statements to Doojable for the reason I stated!

I had to laugh at the ad that popped up at the mention of all the Persian rulers: one for single Iranians!

Anyway, I don't believe that C.S. Lewis' "Liar, Lunatic or Lord" Trilemma is valid. Obviously he could have been mistaken, we could be mistaking him or his words could have been recorded inaccurately to mention just three that come to mind.

Regarding your example from Daniel about the fullfilled prophesies, I think that your point is that an accurate prophesy indicates that the bible is true. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Assuming that the prophesy in Daniel is correct, all that tells us is that somebody predicted the future. But reading your explanation of it, there appears to be enough wiggle room to allow for a flexible interpretation. It reminds me of Nostradamus' prophesies, which seem to be remarkably accurate looking back on them...if you're willing to be broad in your interpretation. I'll tell you what though, I won't dismiss this particular example out of hand, I'll look at it independently.

Another point that I want to address is:

I don't think that the bible is, nor does it pretend to be, objective. It's purpose seems to be to reveal the god of the Hebrews, not to be an historically accurate document.

No doubt there are events, places and people that line up quite nicely with what non-biblical historians have determined, you can say the same thing about James Michener's Centenniel. What can't be objectively verified is the existance and attributes of a god.

It all depends on how much evidence you need....it is not like Jesus came in the flesh to declare GOD or anything. :)

So, using the Bible as a reference, have you considered that at the end of the book of Job, God soundly reprooves everyone for thinking they could figure him out?

Absolutely, GOD's thoughts and ways are absolutely higher than man's thoughts and ways no question;

It is what He does proclaim in HIS word that is my responsibility. Jesus Christ either lied or He didn't; that He alone is the way and the only way to GOD. You choose what ever suits You. I have chosen!!!

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

How are you going to contain him? in a book, for crying out loud? How are you going to understand him?

1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

All the miserable comforters and Job are told that they really don't know what they are talking about.

The problem is NOT in any one belief or belief system. The problem comes from the fact that the longer the discussion continues, the more adamant the arguments become. Who's trying to convince who? (whom?) The closer even the most seemingly loving of all get to their true nature and the gloves come off. The presumptuousness of man is astounding. Get a little knowledge and all of a sudden you're an expert. All of a sudden you're a spokesperson on Gawd's evening news. "Good night and good luck!"

I am not concerned with your personal problems, They are not the issue. GOD and His Word are the issue; This is a doctrinal thread!!!

Short posts are answered with multiple long posts. I don't recall records of Jesus doing such a thing. He walked in, did his thing and walked out.

I tend to think that Ockham's Razor should be used concerning arguments of this matter:

http://physics.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node10.html

As to the question at hand in the title of the thread, I'd say first you'd have to define your terms.

"I'd" being the operative word here ...go for it yourself, You define these as you see fit and build You own case as You see it. You should be more than capable of answering Your questions and their relevance. I have defined what I find pertinent to this thread: The real point and issue is that:

2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2Th 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

What is hell? (that should take you about ten threads.)

Where is hell? (more threads)

Who goes to hell? (maybe just a one post answer - LOL!)

Is there a 'Get of hell free" card and do I collect $200.00?

Is hell everlasting? (what I should have stated in the last question.)

Have we all already died and hell is where we are right now?

Why is hell necessary?

I came to the realization that no matter how many verses I know, I still don't know anything. The newspapers are filled with stories of Sunday school teachers who leave their classes and go home and abuse their wife and children, priests who do unspeakable things to the young boys in their parishes, and the many, many motorcoach monsters there are in the world today. Sounding good is easy. Living right - not so much.

Good luck with this thread.

I agree.

Where we disagree is that many viewpoints that claim objectivity are actually subjective. I would add (without knowing for sure whether you would agree or disagree) that a person's spiritual relationship is by necessity subjective and "accuracy" in this realm is irrelevant.

Thank you

Yeah? <_<

Oak,

Biblically objectivity has withstood the test of time, when it it not intermingled with subjective doctrines of men it has been historically documented by biblical researchers (not TWI, as their research was a farce). This is not to say that there are no errors in translations by the handling of men, but biblical scholar's are more often than not able to point out these added or substracted by men errors. These errors have usually been incorporated into translation to line up with the varying subjective doctrines of men!

An example I will cite is the book of Daniel (old testament) was written long before the book of Revelation and it actuatly lines up with scriptural references of then yet future events that are refered to in Revelation and beyond the Bible history. Both Daniel and Revelation make reference to Alexander The Great:

[edit] Four Persian Kings

In Daniel 11:2-4, the angel Gabriel informs the prophet that there will be four Persian kings before the coming of Alexander the Great.

And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven.

Since the author of Daniel wrote during the reign of Cyrus (Daniel 10:1), this would then make him the first Persian king of Daniel 11:2. Cyrus defeated Babylon in 536 BC. Alexander took the kingdom from the last Persian king in 333 BC. This gives us 203 years for the Persian reign. Split among four kings, we get an average of about 51 years each, which is somewhat excessive.

There were nine Persian kings from Cyrus to Alexander. They are:

Cyrus (549 - 529 BC)

Cambyses (529 - 522 BC)

Darius I (521 - 485 BC)

Xerxes (485 - 465 BC)

Artaxerxes I (465 - 425 BC)

Darius II (425 - 405 BC)

Artaxerxes II (404 - 358 BC)

Artaxerxes III (358 - 338 BC)

Darius III (338 - 330 BC)

The author of Daniel may have been misled by the fact that the Old Testament only mentions four of the nine Persian kings - Cyrus (Ezra 1:1), Darius I (Ezra 4:5), Xerxes I (Ahasuerus - Ezra 4:6) and Artaxerxes I (Ezra 4:7).[9]

However, Xerxes I, the fourth king from the time of history in the book of Daniel, did in fact invade Greece and instigated the Greco-Persian wars, in which he was ultimately defeated.[24] Since it is normal in prophetic sections of the Hebrew Bible to have no mention of large chronological gaps between historical events, the predictions regarding the fourth king of Persia warring in Greece and that of Alexander the Great are not necessarily to be understood as one immediately following the other.[original research?] The successive sentences indicate a successive thematic relationship, i.e. the struggle between Persia and Greece, rather than a chronological one

Old Testament Bible prophesies concerning Jesus Christ shows the objectivity and inerrant accuracy of GOD's Word. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the old testiment prophesie concerning himself True Christianity is a logical faith...You either believe it or You don't

we can't just dismiss the bible out of hand....... IT IS a phenomenon in and of itself

The Bible was written:

over a 1500 year span (from 1400 B.C to A.D. 100)

over 40 generations

over 40 authors from many walks of life (i.e. - kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, scholars)

in different places (i.e. - wilderness, dungeon, palaces)

at different times (i.e. - war, peace)

in different moods (i.e. - heights of joy, depths of despair)

on three continents (Asia, Africa, and Europe)

in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek)

Oak,

They, Pluralistic viewpoints are not objectively True; which is without bias and without being influenced by personal feelings and opinions. Subjectively is based on opinions and feelings rather than facts or evidence Subjective is not at all indicative of truth. Pluralistic viewpoints have no real measure of accuracy.

Interesting usage of :1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

"Now I know in part" what I need to know to receive eternal life in GOD's presence based on GOD and the Bible.

The Thread is: Why Would A Good God Send People To an Everlasting Hell?

Thank You Linda,

And this once and again demonstrates: Just what is our excuse anyway for not walking in Love and Light???

Assuming for the sake of argument that a good God has an everlasting hell, saying that he doesn't send people there, but that people choose to go there by not choosing God seems to me hair-splitting and taking the responsibility for having the place off of the good God.

The difference between the way I look at it and how I think that others look at it can be illustrated by a pair of analogies:

The God doesn't send position:

A park ranger meets a camper. He instructs him about how to behave in the park, including not swatting the local bears on the nose, and tells him the consequenses of bear swatting. The ranger continues his rounds, the camper swats the bear, the bear mauls and eats the camper.

My position:

A park ranger meets a camper. He instructs him about how to behave in the park, including not swatting the local bears on the nose, and tells him the consequenses of bear swatting. The camper tells the ranger that he doesn't believe him and the ranger feeds him to the bear, who the ranger has trained to eat on command any campers who the ranger commands him to eat.

Oak I will answer You with scripture and hope You understand my correlation to Your post, which is a marvelously conceived analogy

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Hi Geisha,

First let me thank you for the time you took to post your thoughtful reply.

I do not view you as taking the thread off topic at all. I posted my opinion and you replied in context. Further - I didn't know you needed another poster's permission to post to another poster. But indeed I hope you do not think my post was directed at you or any other person directly on this thread. I have little, if any, use for personal insult or condemnation although it often seems to run rampant here by using direct names and insulting accusatory lines of questioning. I simply stated my opinion of that kind of god - where the hell described not only in some posts here but in many slices of christianity - gives all appearances of an oven for humans in a Nazi concentration camp.

I do not view ANY posts in this thread as out of line. You have your beliefs, Oakspeare has his, I have mine, RG has hers etc etc ad infinitum.

In fact I will repeat - thank you for taking the time to explain your beliefs and position in more detail. BTW as an (hopefully humorous) aside you are not blonde - you are a light-haired detour off the information superhighway.

To clarify my position a bit more - I do not dislike the god of the bible - nor do I fear him/her/it. I have no problem with christianity nor christians and consider myself sort of one in a rather obtuse way. I also have no problem with Judaism, Taoism, and a host of others...people are people...their beliefs are their's as long as I am not at the other end of their weapons or door knocking.

I am glad that you are happy in your relationship with your god. Good for you. That probably puts you in a minority of people in the world.

Again thanks for posting - and again please do not read my previous post as any sort of slam on you or anyone else on this thread.

Best,

RR

You are Right RumRunner, It is very much on topic!!!

Geisha did an excellant job!!!

She knows that she did not need to ask my permission for anything, no one does...she just did it out of politeness and wondering whether or not I was already addressing it (Your post).

I am very glad that she did!!! I would have never addressed it nearly as well as she has!!!

This is what I said:

How can a god that is supposedly omniscient and is supposed to know the hearts of man expect fairness from us?

Moreover, why would he want our fairness?...to him? That makes no sense at all.

Not to mention all the verses referring to tribulations and unfairness in the world.

My understanding is that he wants us to be perfect - while knowing that we can't be perfect.

But He remembers our frame and He gave us a Savior, He Loves us more than we can understand

Uhhhhh... real loving and kind...uh huh... yea

Please don't exclude or forget GOD's Love, Grace, Forgiveness and Mercy...His fairness and loving kindness to us all...He is perfect and part of being perfect is being Just...setting boundaries and conditions out of Love that is greater than our own wisdom, knowledge and understanding...Like a Dad or a Mom!!!

Are You saying that You don't know how to be fair and if so, I understand? Yet, if You know how to be fair in a horizontal way...man to man, why according to the definite of being fair does it exclude being fair concerning GOD and His Word. I already stated that GOD does not expect us to be fair as a requirement; but by definite we are fair when we are not biased, and when we reasonable and impartially, in this case, examine and study The Bible to learn about GOD. It is not possible to gain a true and impartial knowledge of anyone or anything, including GOD or His Word without being fair; Otherwise the result is blurred or skewed. Without preconception based on previous experience (example TWI.....the bad experiences and confused self propagation usage and twisting of GOD's Word.)

Encata Dictionary:

fair (1)

fair [ fer ]

adjective (comparative fair·er, superlative fair·est)

Definition:

1. reasonable or unbiased: not exhibiting any bias, and therefore reasonable or impartial

a fair decision

2. done properly: done according to the rules

fair and free elections

3. not stormy or cloudy: sunny or clear, and without much wind

fair weather

4. nautical good for sailing: describes conditions that are favorable for sailing or travel by boat

a fair wind

5. pleasing to look at: beautiful or pleasing to the eye ( literary )

a fair maiden

6. not blocked: clear and unobstructed

a fair view of the enemy's forces

7. light-colored: with light-colored hair or skin

8. sizeable: reasonably large in size or quantity

They had a fair number of responses to the advertisement.

9. acceptable: no more than acceptable or average

Your performance this year has been only fair.

10. better than acceptable: moderately good or reasonable

a fair understanding

11. unsullied: not marred by any blemish or stain

to preserve your fair name

12. false despite appearances: seemingly good or true, but actually false or insincere

fair words

13. baseball in fair territory: constituting a fair ball according to the rules of baseball

The ball's not going to stay fair.

adverb

Definition:

1. properly: in accordance with the rules or what is expected

She's always played fair with me.

2. baseball in fair territory: in or into fair territory on a baseball field

3. directly: in a direct or straight way, and squarely

hit fair in the center of the board

verb (past and past participle faired, present participle fair·ing, 3rd person present singular fairs)

Definition:

1. intransitive verb Scotland improve: to become bright after cloud or rain ( refers to the weather or sky )

2. transitive verb make smooth and even: to smooth or streamline the surface of something such as an aircraft wing or tabletop

[ Old English faeger "beautiful" < Germanic, "suitable"]

fair and square justly, fairly, or according to the rules

fair enough acceptable and understandable, but not ideal

fair's fair used to urge or appeal for just or even treatment (informal)

fair to middling reasonably good or reasonably well (informal)hyphenated when used before a noun

for fair U.S. utterly or completely (informal)

no fair used to indicate that something is unfair or against the rules (informal)

When you say, "who already believe in said beliefs" you are forgetting that the eye witnesses did not believe it at first. They were only convinced because they saw the risen Christ. Every event that we know of, we learned about from eye witnesses. What reason would you have for doubting the testimony of those who saw him? There were many, many people who would have loved to be able to disprove the resurrection, and it would have been easy - just produce the body. But nobody ever did. That fact and the fact that the witnesses claimed to have seen the risen Christ is even attested to by Josephus (even though he himself did not believe).

There are other factors too. It's interesting that you mention "loyal-till-I-die followers." The very fact that they were willing to die rather than renounce their testimony gives it more credence. If it had been fabricated, or in some way proven false, why would the apostles go to their death proclaiming it? What would they have to gain? It wasn't like cults today where a lot of money and power is at stake.

There are a number of other factors that make the very existence of Christianity extremely unlikely if it had not been based on the historical reality of the resurrection. Check out this article by James Patrick Holding for more detail.

Bringing it back to the topic of this thread, it's not that God inflicts punishment on "those who do no more wrong than not believe in a god." He has provided a way for anyone to escape the basic end of all mankind, which is death. And He did a lot to bring that to pass, even though none of us deserved it. For those who reject His plan, what else is there but death? Yet it is complete destruction, not unending torture in fire.

Thank You Mark for Your contributions, although we don't completely agree youhave made sound documentable and credible statements!!!

Doojable wrote:

He expects fairness?

No excuse me, that was my concluded personal one liner from my knowledge of GOD's Word as a whole. It is not being fair to accuse GOD of being unjust...false unsubstantiated accusations are not being fair to GOD. He expects that in order to be saved by HIM that You know HIM;...He does require that You know HIM and HIS Word to be able to choose with the free will He as the Creator gave You; as to whether or not You choose in accordance with His will or Your own will is your responsibly and choice!

You may excuse Yourself to HIM all that You want in the end, but it will still be HIS concluded judgments that are exacted.

GOD states all in HIS word and concludes that we are inexcusable in HIS Day of Judgment for not choosing eternal life with HIM. It's a choice with consequences... and GOD made some vessels for destruction.

I personally don't challenge HIS Wisdom, HIS Understanding HIS Judgment, HIS Justice nor do I oppose HIM. I am not at loggerheads with Him by my free will choice. To understand and to know GOD is a choice. Everyone chooses what is right in their own eyes. I believe that GOD's thoughts and ways are higher than mine...that I am the clay and he is the potter. I LOVE everything I know about GOD!!!

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?

Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

Mat 7:29 For he taught them as [one] having authority, and not as the scribes.

I see Your point to a degree.... GOD desires that we are fair to HIM and also knows all and hopes that ALL will be fair to HIM and see HIM as He is. He asks us to be imators of HIM and that we all come to an accurate knowledge of HIS Word and are saved. In His doctrine ,reproofs, corrections and exhortations to us that is demonstrated. No, He doesn't outright require it, but those who love and understand GOD see and hear HIM and are fair to HIM. The things of GOD are is spirtually decerned!!!

1Cr 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Really? Thank You for the correction!!!

I haven't read the Bible in years and even I know this to be a false statement, akin to the trite one-liners we became accustomed to in TWI.

...I am not presenting a TWI viewpoint...it is absolutely a Bible based view point...so your accusation is totally unfounded in the TWI respect....TWI didn't twist all of GOD's Word up....Although, they were profoundly great at teaching their people to twist GOD and HIS Word up to suit themselves by their example and behavior.

Statements like this are the reason I hate organized religion. They are over-bearing and control-seeking.

Kimberly Wrote:

A Good God does not "SEND," the operative word for me, to hell or anywhere else. What about a bad god? Where does a bad god "SEND" anybody?

Kimberly,

You are entitled to Your opinions and of course your selection of gods; Although, I would have more respect for your opinion, if you, at all seemed to have read this thread and were responding to it as a whole. Other than breezing in, to offer your unsubstantiated opinion...in other words... opinion lacking enough substance to discuss;

Perhaps bothering to read the thread would help and adding some rationale to your opinion??? Like for instance why does The GOD of The Bible not have absolute rule, right, authority and ability and justification to send any of his creations to hell for abandoning Him. Incidentally it ultimately involves their individual free will choice.

Discussing The GOD of The Bible or any of His actions will absolutely include and involve a discussion of His Word and His Will to be credible and substanciated. Otherwise it is a bias and unbased opinion and becomes in essense a reactionary feeling being expressed. That is not being fair to GOD who You are accusing of being unfair and unjust. You expect His fairness...He expects Yours!!! RG.

That usage of the word "send" seems to dictate absolute rule and control of the sender without freedom of will or thought or choice of the sendee.

Where is your power as the "sendee"???? I can tell You it is in your free will to choose!!! RG

Send me to the moon, let me dance among the stars....ya'll know that song. Tiptoe Through The Tulips is another good one.

RG wrote in post #1:

2. “Isn’t God unjust to punish persons forever for sins committed during a limited earthly existence?”

Those in hell have committed the ultimate, infinite sin-not simply a string of finite sins-in rejecting a relationship with the self-giving God. Also, hell is the logical outcome of a mindset to live apart from God-not simply committing individual sins. The punishment fit’s the crime. You want no God, you get no God. There are two kinds of people: Those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, “Thy will be done” (C.S Lewis).

3. “But wouldn’t persons in hell really want to be with God if they knew what hell is like?”

No. Those who have resisted God on earth continue in their hard-heartedness thereafter (just as those living for God on earth continue to enjoy him). God’s holy presence would truly be “hell” for those wanting their own way. We have no hint from Scripture of repentance in hell Rebellion, hate, and selfishness continue. The rich man in Hell (Luke 16:19-28) is remorseful, not repentant-not wanting to change, but to find relief!

Remorseful: A strong feeling of guilt and regret.

Repentant: 1. To be Sorry - To recognize the wrong in something that you have done and be sorry about it. 2. To Change – To feel regret about a sin or past action and change your ways or habits

Rebellious: 1. Opposing or defying authority – Opposing or defying authority, accepted moral codes or social conventions. 2. Fighting to overthrow government or authority – fighting to overthrow government or other authority…rebellion against GOD is idolatry

Idolatry: 1. Idol worship – The worship of an idol or false gods. 2. Extreme admiration – Excessive admiration or love shown for someone or something

Luk 16:19

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luk 16:20

And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luk 16:21

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luk 16:22

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luk 16:23

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luk 16:25

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luk 16:26

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

Luk 16:27

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

Luk 16:28

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Thus we testify for GOD and pray genuinely out of Godly love for all!!! (RG)

Oak when you take excerpts out of my replies to you and twist them to suit your point of view;I don't know what to do with that, I think a real honest upfront conversation would be much better

Oak Wrote:

QUOTE (RainbowsGirl @ Jan 20 2009, 05:21 PM)

Geisha wrote:

Prayer is a conversation with GOD...Excuse me, are you capitalizing "God" out of respect, or emphasis?

Both Oak

QUOTE

... to beseech HIM to help with any needs in any persons life whether they are spiritual, physical or mental.Yup, got that. This is not news.

I was fairly sure it wasn't new to You

QUOTE

When you were in TWI you probably learned that in The Word of GOD.I learned it in & out of TWI

Me too!!!

QUOTE

We Christians are exhorted to pray for all (without exception) men and to pray without ceasing...and regardless of TWI's faults and misinterpretations; The Word of GOD states this clearly throughout.So pray. In what verse does it say that you have to tell us that you're praying for us?

I don't recall any verse that requires a Christan to inform you that we are praying for You or Your soul...I think that it is optional. This brings a question to my mind that I hope that You might answer: Why would it bother You if anyone is praying for Your soul ??? You have at the very least an intellectual knowledge of GOD and Christianity there fore you know full well that this a common practice in Christianity and that it is GOD's desire that we demonstrate HIS Love and HIS Will

Except, I wish that You recognized that it isn't done with disdain or persecution or merely to convert by proselytizing.

When I pray for someones Soul this is what is in my heart: First of all Godly Love. Next of all Godly Compassion, then Hope.. I am thinking, that we both believe differently and we both are convinced to some degree that what we live and believe is the truth.

I can only speak for myself , but personally I believe GOD is the absolute truth. I am just sharing my heart now Oak; so then I think of the justice and judgment of GOD and Eternity and why wouldn't I pray for any one's soul to be saved from eternally being in hell??? If it were You in my shoes and me in Your's...both of us being human both of us having an understand of some of differences between right and wrong or good and evil. Would you not pray for my soul that I would not spend eternity in hell??? It isn't a place that I would want to go to or see anyone go to for ...eternity.....

The difference between us is that I Love GOD and believe Him and You don't Love GOD. He at the very least angers, offends and convicts You with His Word,

How can it hurt or offend you so if You have abandoned GOD and His Word and believe that He is only one of many gods and not a very nice one and from Your perspective jealous, cruel, unjust and unloving.

Is it because You know that He exists and that He will perform His Word and cast some to hell?

You get to choose to dislike or hate him or even believe that He does not exist. If I didn't believe in GOD it would be foolish and ludicrous and very harmless if anyone in a loving way prayed for my soul or not; If I was totally convinced and convicted in my beliefs. Why is it that You can never focus on GOD's Love, Mercy and Grace and only rather HIS Judgment and Justice???

True Christan's don't thro GOD or His Word unloving in pagans faces, nor do they feel in any way superior to them. The difference is that a Christan recognizes GOD in a Christan way and repents to GOD personally and lives that standard and a Pagan rejects Christianity and lives in a pagan way and opposes repentance. We ALL choose. It would break my heart and I have permission to add Geisha's to know anyone that is condemned to hell.

QUOTE

Prayer has no boundaries because it is between the one praying and GOD; and only GOD can answer prayers in His own manner.Agreed. Pray, pray without ceasing, but when you tell me that you're praying for me, usually it's proselytizing (sp?).

The spoken and written Word of GOD speaks in the form of doctrine reproof and correction. In all the doctrinal threads that any nonbeliever in The God of the Bible have posted in I have only seen contempt, anger, disdain and judgment toward GOD, no attempt is ever made to recognize His Love, Goodness , Mercy, Justice, Fairness of His Word and Will as a whole. Even when I am being fair and impartial with Geisha's post and at length present it scripturally for you in Love. You directly are ignoring the obvious and malign and impugning Jesus for saying it and further use it to state you are being persecuted by Christan's and Christianity. In this thread alone lie Your examples...the one's You request!!!

But let me make a distinction here: when a Christian, or any other person tells me that they're praying for my health, or anything like that, I usually just smile and say thanks. When they tell me that they're praying for my soul, i.e. that my beliefs or lifestyle are wrong, then I feel that I have every reason to be annoyed.

This is address above

QUOTE

Respect is a two - way street. In many ways pagans and Wiccan have insulted and disrespected GOD, Christians and Christianity at times openly in threads and posts with their remarks. This is in essence completely expected as they are diametrically opposing doctrines. A Christian can only respond as a Christian and likewise a Wiccan and a Pagan can also only respond in kind.I agree, respect is a two way street. Where have pagans and Wiccans insulted your god? To my knowledge there are only two of us who regularly post here. Could you give examples of the insults and disrespect?

This is also addressed in the above replies

QUOTE

What does GOD say about Witch craft and Idolatry?I've seen what your bible says, which may or may not be what your god thinks about it. Your god wants everybody to worship him and is jealous of any worship extended to other gods. Your bible wrongly equates worship of other gods with worship of the idols that they represent. I would guess that your god has the same attitude about witchcraft because it involves depending on power that doesn't derive from him, although I've seen sources (not at my fingertips right now) that claim that "witch" should be translated "poisoner", so I guess if I'm not a poisoner, I'm okay with your god.

This is accusative and maligning and impugning of my GOD...an example

QUOTE

You would be appalled and offended if I were to provide the scriptural references,Appalled no, offended yes.

Take that up with GOD as I have never attack You or Your beliefs...the Word of GOD that I speak and write is from GOD although I whole heartedly believe it I don't attack You with it and neither by the way does GOD attack You with it GOD's purpose is Salvation for ALL mankind!!!

QUOTE

I am quite sure. They are opposing doctrines; and anyone who cannot clearly see that is not a workman of GOD’s Word. God is the epitome of Holiness; and He is only tolerant in this "Age of Grace" to give man his day; Yet scripturally, that in no way indicates that GOD respects or tolerates the doctrines of men…quite the contrary…the scripture is plain.That all makes sense if you believe your holy book, for those of us who don't, it's just insulting.

Concerning GOD and HIS Word You have tunnel vision and selectively seeing only in part and only what You want to see. I am never happy to see anyone twist GOD's Word or blame GOD for their personal viewpoints or trials, tribulations and consequences.

QUOTE

Geisha and her husband are very close and dear friends of mine yet, I have fairly and without partiality examined her post in a Godly scriptural manner, ...I dispute that you can examine anything on this subject without partiality, you are biased toward the biblical point of view...not that there's anything wrong with that

Only a blind man would say without evidence that my rely was biased to Geisha's post because of my biblical point of view as a Christian

I jumped in here even though I am not the one being addressed and am not one who asked for an apology.

I am not surprised when certain Christians compare me to swine and dogs and insist that I am going to a fictional hell. I am not surprised when these same Christians look down their noses at us. Not surprised, but insulted just the same. I view Christianity the same way I view any other faith (or lack of faith), a personal choice that makes the Christian neither superior nor inferior to me, a path that works for that person, and brings comfort to that person; personal choices that I don't have the right or the expertise to judge. Yet those same people presume to judge me, as well as followers of others faiths, plus atheists, agnostics et al.

(sp?).

I am truly truly very sorry Oak and Anyone else who feels this way or believes this that You're perspective of GOD, Christianity and Christain is so clouded and jaded

But let me make a distinction here: when a Christian, or any other person tells me that they're praying for my health, or anything like that, I usually just smile and say thanks. When they tell me that they're praying for my soul, i.e. that my beliefs or lifestyle are wrong, then I feel that I have every reason to be annoyed.

This is addressed above

Geisha wrote:

My belief system is not about me at all. . . perhaps I don't make that clear. . . it is about Jesus. . . but you seem overly concerned with that belief system somehow encroaching upon yours.

While speaking of DOCTRINAL issues in a DOCTRINAL forum on an ex-cult site in a thread about the bible, Jesus, or prayer. . . may or may not seem like boundry hopping to you. . . I must internally question that logic.

You reject Christianity as your faith. You clearly have articulated that you stand by your words. . . with no fear or trepidation. I CAN respect that. Got it. . .

I articulate my faith. . . what you believe . . . you have articulated. . . I can respect your choice, but don't have to repect your faith as it runs contrary to what I truly believe. That means Bramble. . . my entire---complete---and all encompassing world view.

An objective truth. Meaning. . . truth with a corresponding object. . . which by its very nature rejects all other opposing or alternate objects.

There you have it

Seems to me. . . you have a very difficult time respecting my choice. . . which appears to be offensive to you. . .no surprize. . . the bible speaks of this very thing.

I have NO desire to offer you or others who reject Him. . . the Holy things of God. You have made clear you don't want them. They are not FOR you. They do not belong to you. . They belong to those who believe on Him.

Am I clear enough?

Let me articulate with the words of Jesus. . .

"Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you."

Just to add: It in no way is surprizing to me that you have an opinion about a faith and community you reject. . . but if you would take note. . . although I reject your faith. . . other than a clear rejection of it. . . I offer no insight into it or opinion of it. . . you are certainly free to participate in a conversation about the Christian faith and what you perceive its weakness or strength. . . I am free to wonder why you would?

Leafytwigley

Sorry I missed your Birthday!!!