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  1. To caribousam: Let me relate it to this analogy: LEAD was a good place for normal physically healthy people to learn some physical and spiritual things. But sending a quadriplegic in a wheel chair and then tieing him into a rope and telling him to climb the rocks..... It don't work bro. When I took Momentus the trainers said it was for LEADERS. Then they sat there and told us we had no right to define what a LEADER was, just sign up everybody and let them make the decision. So then people just released from mental institutions and currently on psychotropic drugs were enrolled..... It was so sad to watch the consequences. It has to be about quality of care for your brothers and sisters and not about quantity. And where is Jesus in all this claptrap?
  2. CES/STF has had several major mistakes: Momentus/VisionQuest used as a bludgeoning tool against people without their permission instead of a person using it on themself; Personal Prophecy is used in the same bludgeoning manner against someone like EL without her request or permission; getting in way too deep in personal and marital issues and intertwining these with the day to day relationships of the core people and the running of the ministry. I have personally enjoyed how the "leaders" can be so sinful and broken and yet remain qualified to lead, yet they can condescendingly inform others of their disqualification to serve because of their shortcomings. Then there is all of the psychoanalysis and prescribing of psychotropic drugs going on because of course you are broken, Jesus cannot heal you and you need these things just to get through your day. I wonder who pays for all of this professional help? Maybe there is lots more to come out eh? Ya wanna come to my fellowship? PUSH, PUSH, PUSH. Hey we got a great program for ya, PUSH PUSH PUSH. Just don't expect any results from Jesus. My shrink can help you more than him. PUSH Want some xxxxxxx man? I got a few extra. PUSH
  3. I am pretty new here and have not finished reading reading everything, I guess I'm behind. It amazed me in reading the Clergy letter (still not done) about their meeting and collection of prophecies led by Nancy Berwid how much (totally?) they ask someone else for a prophecy. And no one ever talks about asking God directly for a Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom. Another comment was made somewhere about this ces model resembling the Roman Catholic priesthood who stood between you and God. I guess we are not good enough anymore to hear directly from God eh? (sarcasm in case anyone is wondering). My other word of advice to you ces people if you want the conflict to subside is to just shut up for a couple of months. My gosh you people like to talk about each other and probably behind each others backs. Just put a sock in it (apologies Socks) and go take a homeless person a blanket and a meal. CES/STF the ministry that fights together. Grow up!
  4. Marcion - an interesting person who from the little I have studied was probably trashed by the "other side". Is there another forum where we can talk Paul and Marcion? I'm very interested in what you think of him. Lead the way.
  5. Sorry Invisible - my bad, wasn't going after you at all. Just unclear in my post. Forgive me please. The principles are good ones - they seem to share much with the sermon on the mount and many other good things Jesus spoke about. I thought it might go at least a little while before people spoke up about the Earlham connection, but hey you people are sharp. All involved with the CES BOD mess would do well to re-read these principles and meditate on them and take them to heart. Even what has already been revealed here about the division seems to be things that could be mediated. But from offline conversations and relationships I have had it seems that even what GSC reveals is only the tip of the iceburg. A while back an inadvertent comment was made in front of one of the little people about next needing to get rid of JS. So who was got rid of first, JL? This is why I must conclude that a clique that would seem to be in agreement with peaceful principles would resort to verbally violent means: To achieve a separate agenda. One based upon ousting others, attempting to intimidate people to resign and eventually to have total control. Total power. But stacking the BOD did not work. One might conclude that God has a different plan. I have an image in my mind of people getting up to testify in court and placing their hand on the Bible and swearing to tell the whole truth. And I can't imagine what the holy spirit on the inside will be doing. SCREAMING? Or whispering. And of course it is always up to Jesus if he should choose to appear at the back of the courtroom to the person testifying - perhaps weeping. There's always room for Jello. And it's never too late to repent.
  6. Like Earlham College of Richmond Indiana, a Quaker school? Quoting from their Principles & Practices: Peace and Justice The Quaker peace testimony is perhaps the most distinctive of Friends’ beliefs, distinguishing Quakers from many other believers. It holds that violence, whether physical, emotional, or verbal, is an injustice that harms not only victims but also those who are violent, and is never the means to achieving a just and lasting peace. Friends also seek to challenge institutional and social structures that, while sometimes invisible or taken for granted, still do violence. Many thoughtful and moral people disagree with the strong form of Quaker pacifism that deplores all use of violence, but the Quaker peace testimony will always challenge us to seek non-violent responses to conflict and to look for just and peace-making solutions. Practicing Peace and Justice We work actively for the peaceful resolution of conflict, and for the removal of causes of violence and injustice. We strive to live peacefully within our own community as we pursue a more just, non-violent, and sustainable world. Queries When conflicts arise, do I make creative and non-violent efforts to resolve them? Am I careful to avoid all forms of violence and coercion in my relations with others? Do I think about power: who has it, and how it should be used? Am I careful to use my own power for just and constructive ends?
  7. Who Would Jesus Sue? Judas? The Sahedrin? Pontius Pilate? Peter for denying him? The Roman Soldiers? The crowd? You and me? Or no-one. What Would Jesus Do, Mark and Karen Ann? I see none of your blood anywhere. Jesus wept.
  8. Good questions and points! My gut reaction is that the earlier corps started out with more heart as a group (with individuals this could be way off) but your point about being in longer - they were probably jaded in ways that they themselves could not see and may still not see if they haven't disengaged and relaxed. I personally think that the earlier grads had more heart as they were closer to the "move of the Holy Spirit" in the early 70's. The one that VP co-opted without God's permission. But there could be good people in the later Corps - I think their eventual heart after twi would be dependent on what they bought into every step of the way. But your question about a successful splinter run by non-Corps? Cannot think of one. This hits me two ways - the people who wanted to be leaders and revvies and important would have joined the corps - egos. And so the ego would have stayed in gear (no pun) after twi. I can think of some good people who wanted to lead after who were not corps - but no-one followed - they did not have the right pedigree. I remember a nice guy in this class asking a mutual friend to start supporting him and his ministry - the friend was sending money to Dale Sides - and he pretty much blew off the non-corps guy, even though the guy had had an amazing positive impact on his marriage and his life. As far as Way Corps principles I am thinking of the thoughts and beliefs that become the bedrock of how these leaders treat people both in action and in their attitudes toward them. Leadership cliques seem to have become a problem in the ces material on this site, which would tell me it was a lot like HQ and the WC training sites and the way they treated local fellowship people - which was not good overall.
  9. The problem with any organized religious or community group that has leadership by election and also accepts donations and has a budget - even if it started by really good people it will eventually attract the loud pushy know it all types who want to run it a little better and make it a little more organized, who then push out the meek. Then it is all down hill from there.
  10. Scary reading this stuff and seeing the same old results from the same old characters. The conclusion I have come to is that TWI leadership principles as taught to everyone AND ESPECIALLY to the Way Corps are beyond flawed, they are downright hurtful. All of these former leaders coming out of TWI at various times and trying to put new wine in old skins and then what happens? They burst. I just read the comments about WC of CFF teaching - the core word seemed to be BORING! This seems to be the MO for all of these groups - study,study, study and never do anything real in the community. And then of course the CONTROL issues that come up - who is going to submit to whom, so if this cannot be negotiated amongst former Corps then we end up with 50 or more little splinter groups all headed up by Men Of God (snicker). Whose books, tapes, cliches are the best? The smart people have moved on. I have seen some Way Corps successfully move on. Many get stuck in these groups because they are comfortable with the various leaders & people personality wise, and they are familiar with the teaching cliches. I know of one guy 7th Corps who is a big mental head case and should really be locked up by now but powerful relatives cover for him. Overall I would have to say while some good was learned, that overall the principles taught in the Way Corps were a disaster. I would prefer to forget them, ignore them, and follow the words of Jesus only. Hang out with your neighbors - the people who live next door and down the street. Build a new better legacy than the one built by VP and Craig and Geer.
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