another spot

“You shall be as gods, knowing ….

The original temptation was special knowledge that would give them special results. It wasn’t sexual at all. The text doesn’t tell us what the actual act of disobedience was, other than they partook, but whatever it was, it logically had to be something that would make sense to get the result of KNOWING. It had to be something they would think was logical.

And, I can understand it. We got into twi thinking we would get special knowledge. Nobody but twi had it. Once we had it, we would do special things, like stand between the devil and the rest of the world.

Creepy.

An interesting point to me…

When the serpent said “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil,” he spoke the truth(although he lied about you shall not surely die).

V22: And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us (elohim), to know good and evil:”

It seems reasonable God knew there was a possibility of disobedience. Therefore, by making it possible for Adam and Eve to have a conscience they would have an internal warning system to help them, otherwise they would be open to constant disobedience and not much holding them back. They needed to know the difference between right and wrong, as well as all mankind that would follow. This explains why He chose this particular tree.

If concience is something that is a characteristic of God, then that is a good thing. That sheds some (not much) light on why it was so tempting.

“The truth of the matter is that the conscience is a warning indicator, to point out dangers and pitfalls. Can the conscience mis-identify? Sure. That's why you add THINKING to the system. Not adding thinking is just plain silly.

DISMISSING the conscience and only going by logic- and, to be honest, external arguments-is to deny one warning system that alerts even when a threat hasn't been fully articulated. Without it, you're prey to any convincing-sounding argument.”

That’s right.

When my conscience bothers me, I feel guilty. There is an emotional response to my own conduct or motives. That is the internal guidance system if you will. If we go with the hypothesis that conscience is innate and something we are born with, then we can move on.

I don’t feel guilty when I eat ham. Those whose religion forbids it, do. So, conscience is affected by beliefs. Beliefs are acquired through education. When someone agrees to and accepts that education as a belief, it is because he or she has used reasoning (or thinking), and decided this new information is right or wrong.

Reason can be at variance with conscience. This is where our consciences got “sedated.” We let reason override conscience. In time, our consciences became somewhat changed.

Twi changed the essence of who we were, at least to a degree.

Here’s a weird thought: what would the world be like if no one had a conscience?

Wow, T-bone!! This thread is a pretty good example of ministering to others all by itself, and boy has it got me thinking!

When it gets down to it, living a lifestyle of numbing yourself to your own feelings and judgment and the feelings of others in order to be obedient to God and leadership is a really perverted way of living, and it’s all fear motivated. I knew that before, it’s really sinking in right now. I had connected it to love God, love your neighbor, but did not connect it to conscience. And it took until just now, for that to sink in. Ok, a big loud duh, now...

Mind boggling how much twi produces in a persons life that is opposite to what they claim.

Great posts, Listener! I agree the people here are pretty great. Fellowship is a wonderful thing (please bleep out like-minded…). I always believed it was a way for God to minister horizontally, not just a bunch of meetings. They talked about full sharing, just never saw it.

likeaneagle: I've been taking a crash course. I left 7 yrs ago and flat refused to think about any of it at all. Couldn't and wouldn't deal with it. But yeah, like a washing machine. The dirt keeps coming up and I am shocked I put my valuables in it. Then I can't believe I fell for it all. Especially the mog part, most of all.

We have a water problem in my town. Somehow they can't get it together to provide drinkable water. Between Jan and Feb there was a boil water order out. I didn't find out until late Feb. I am a coffee drinker. The water looked ok. I never intended to drink bad water, I just wanted coffee.

This "therefore no condemnation" thing makes my skin crawl and I don't know why right now. I read it in context, and if you lump conscience in with the flesh, then it's saying you have no conscience or your conscience can't be trusted. To me that says you can't trust yourself to know the difference between right and wrong, and ignores what T-bone said. So the next step is no matter, no condemnation. Seems like another way to tune out right from wrong.

Perhaps the way it works is the conscience is a part of walking by the spirit because of "19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. "

Well, I don't understand, so I'm not being too articulate.

Mr. Hammeroni: Ain't that the truth!

likeaneagle: Hugs back!

Well, 60 days in GS and I've gone from thinking vpw was flawed but not that bad, twi was more good than bad under him, Martinfail ruined it, to my post above. I can tell you quite honestly, it wasn't a quick or easy transition, and a part of my mind fought it constantly. All the while, asking myself, "am I thinking evil?" And then, just a few days ago the pieces fell into place and then I understood.

A lot of folks said things quite helpful, although I didn't comment on your posts because most of the time I was pondering, pondering.

Absolutely Highway, but I didn’t know it until recently. I remember when going witnessing, we were to “look for needs.” Seems innocuous enough. We were looking for people not satisfied with their current system for managing life. People who pretty much had it together weren’t typically interested in twi. Well I was one of them. Twi offered simple solutions with what I thought had God’s stamp of approval.

Cults are complicated. I was reading some more about it today. There is great disagreement amongst those in religion, sociology, and psychology on every aspect of the cult experience. I don't know if GS'rs will figure it out in total. I think each day we get a little closer to answering the question, "what happened, and why?" Answering that question helps answer the question "who am I? and why?" Then go back to the beginning and address the issues that led us to want to be taught in the first place.

I think the primary ways my own conscience was affected is the twi belief system. Things like:

Be especially good to the household (only those in twi)

Who is your neighbor (twi)

Emotions come and go, the Word abides forever (twi version)

That caused me to make decisions that were hurtful to others, ignore my feelings, and think I’d done right.

The mog concept replaced Jesus Christ; vp was my pipeline to God. Not to mention, the Word replaced the “absent” Christ.

Then something I learned recently. Taking the Lord’s name in vain isn’t limited to using the GD word. It is behaving in a manner disrespectful to God. It can be things like putting God’s name on something you decided or did and put God’s name on it, when He had nothing to do with it. For ex: “God told me, I was led, I believed for a parking space”, when He didn’t have anything to do with it. It is anything we do that we connect God to that doesn’t express absolute respect. It is using God’s name frivolously. Treating God like a genie in a lamp springs to mind…how about “clear and concerned” where we direct God as to how to answer prayer?

Then I got my first teaching on what worship really is in church this last Sunday. It is first recognition that God is ALMIGHTY. 2nd, an attitude of humility because of point 1. 3rd, it is not doing things in order to receive from God. 4th, it is understanding that God is the audience, not the congregation. We were taught to worship God via S.I.T., a mindless thing that doesn’t address attitude.

It is just as instructive to look at what was not taught, as what was…

In summary, twi taught me to disrespect God, ignore Jesus Christ, and mistreat most people. This is the real reason I believe twi was/is a cult. In all ways important in my life, twi was a barrier (like a giant, poisonous mattress), and the whole time I was convinced I was right because my conscience took a back seat to my brain which was not functioning on all cylinders because it was permeated with doctrine that rotated around and reflected a disrepect for God.

And in my opinion, vp’s worst sin wasn’t sexual. His worst sin is he made a living taking the Lord’s name in vain as a lifestyle and taught us to do the same. The sexual sin was just one manifestation of it. Every time he twisted the Word to justify his sin (like OT is for our learning, mentions in NT about adultery refer to spiritual adultery) p...ed all over God and then he taught it to us. Every time he took license with the Bible and justified it because he was the mog, he p...ed on God. Every time he declared God told him this or that, lied about the snow, etc. he was taking God’s name in vain as a manner of life. And he sold it to us in a class. It wasn’t ineptness. He taught us to use our minds in a way that produced evil, across the board, and ultimately to ourselves. Just calling a spade a spade.

I understand now Dr. Juedes’ statement on GS Radio about wayfers coming to him after being out 20 yrs and more, still wounded. He said it was a wound to the heart. I get that.

The deeper I look at it, the more appalled I am.

What happens when men of gourds have no transportation...please send money.

I reckon no escape goats for you then...are you undoing your mind?

From the Dark Side,

A. S.

Dr. T:

I am reading your new book, Long Lines, and encountered (excuse me, found) this gem:

“All the goats in the kingdom belong to the king, which means that since the O. T. is for our spurning,

I intend to acquire all the goats and share my 8-track tapes with them, and perhaps a few sheep as well,

in the event the goats prove stubborn.”

Now I understand your need for a bus.

From the Dark Side,

A. S.

Keys to the undone mind.

Mix the following ingredients with a mathematical aggressiveness and scientific incision:

1. Focus on redundant thoughts and repeat out loud with no regard to the things spoken. (Best done privately….)

2. Generalize, never analyze.

3. Use limited and different vocabulary from the rest of the world.

Cook slowly so that it comes out perfectly half baked.

Dr. T, Re the bus project: On hold due to lack of funding. Perhaps a Sock of All Ages would be a good fund raiser. In the meantime, I am sending new wheels for your skateboard and some more Band-Aids.

From the Dark Side,

A. S.

Same music, different notes.

n looking at this off and on but today I had to know if you had any answers to

1. How to turn your brain back on after twi?

2. How to reset your brain back on after twi?

I am sure some would like to hit the reset buttom on their brains

just adding a little fun to a great subject thanks

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

Dearest Roy: My preacher has been talking a lot about how God comes looking for ya. If you want to be found, He will find you. It will be OK. Don't worry about your brain. It will be OK too.

Well, chin up T-bone, I did like the part about 4 simplified.

From the Dark Side,

A. S.

The pumps are shining brightly

Now don’t you take it lightly

I’m the best in centuries

Bring the dough, bring the dough, all your dough.

I dunno, T-Bone. My confidence is shaken. I listened to how you took off hair on fire, eyes wild, and dirty beard on your skateboard. After which, you gave an old lady a band aid with your withered arm. You called it a miracle, even though she beat you with her umbrella while screaming, “I don’t believe in your class!” Sounds a little far-fetched.

And as for the man who wanted the pink drapes, well….what can I say.

"Born again of the wrong seat"

Dear T-Bone:

Concerning Keys to the Proper use of Drambui, ie how to rightly divide it, I submit the following chart.

1. Where it was used before

2. Context

3. To whom it was drank

4. Dang, were there 3 or 5? The numbing effects are already kicking in.

As far as what to say at a time like this, I suggest "Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow."

From the Dark Side,

A. S.

"For this purpose - was I scared!"

Dear T-Bone:

Enclosed please find my paperwork for Power for Redundant Living. I have taken a similar class and although superfluous it was unneeded. I look forward to duplicating my previous comatose subjection.

I am also enclosing the title to my house, and forwarding all worldly possessions as required. The session on deceiving equals believing sounds really characterless. Without question it should be droning and repetitive.

I thank you in advance for processing my application. Rest assured your efforts will be replicated and unintentional.

From the Dark Side,

A. S.

P. S. I am short.

Dear Paw:

I've spent the past several days listening to the broadcasts. I have two left. I found them to be enlightening and tasteful. Informative without being depressing. And pretty healing.

I think it is a great idea to do them and I hope you do more in the future. I am very surprised there aren't more posts about them.

Thanks for all you do.

Dear Belle:

I enjoyed listening to you. I just wanted to say that I am sorry you feel your husband chose twi over you. In a sense he did, but on the other hand as you know, in twi you are taught the choice isn't twi or a family member. It is a choice of a family member and God. That's really unfair. In any case, I am sure it was very hurtful. I know how you feel about wasted years. I hope it gets made up to you.

I am really surprised these radio shows don't get more comments! Really good stuff presented in a tasteful manner.

Oakspear: You're comments re PFAL (how vp introduces doubt, then gets you to trust him, etc) were the best I've heard so far. I'd seen that before, but the implications went over my head. Now I get it. I think too, with three hour sessions and work the next day, there really isn't time to go over it step by step either. Probably wouldn't have mattered. The only part I have a hard time with is I have trouble believing he was that smart or devious. Maybe my mind just doesn't work that way and I can't relate. On the other hand, I have heard there are con artists out there who are pretty good.

Here's what I find really odd. How is it so many who start cults, follow the same pattern? By cult I mean a mog, claim to special knowlege, controlling, etc. It's just kinda weird it happens over and over. It isn't as though there is a cult leader school somewhere...Any comments?

Your assessment about LCM made perfect sense also.

Anyway, good job!!

Yep, Rascal, there were a lot. You listed some good ones I hadn't thought about. I hope you elaborate on the 5 senses one and any others you care to. I am using personal, painful, and even embarrasing examples because I am seeking to avoid a purely intectual discussion or doctrinal debate. From my point of view, TWI HURT and I am just now starting to see it and understand it.

Renewed mind. Just change your mind…Don’t feel pain. Don’t grieve and heal naturally. Just you know, change your mind. Flip a switch. There some parts of this I currently agree with (who knows what I will think tomorrow). I do know when I dwell (brood) about negative things it really does put me in a bad mood. But, sometimes brooding is a good thing for reasonable amounts of time. When I have anxiety I am usually better off to think about the positives of God, but only after I have addressed the anxiety. Sometimes fear is a warning to pay attention. In general, I think this caused me to lack normal emotion.

This turning off emotion in favor of strict obedience (no matter HOW contrary to your feelings) is much more destructive than it sounds on the surface. So I will take a deep breath (REAL deep) and admit something I did, which I have not done before. Ever. Something I am deeply and profoundly ashamed of.

My middle son was 15. First semester as a sophomore. He didn’t want to be in twi anymore. My lc said to find him somewhere else to live. I did it. I sent him to live with his adult older brother. I did this thing and I am a woman who absolutely treasured her children. The justification by leadership was the weakness brings down strength thing. Our home would be over run by devil spirits. A year later when we became M&A, and I found Waydale, I called my son and told him about lcm and the lawsuits. Even tho he didn’t want to be in twi anymore he still had fear and guilt about it. That set him free. We are ok now. My son and I with each other. But I still have guilt, which leads me to…

Obey the leadership. This is a fun one. There is nothing like being in the backseat of your own life while someone else drives and insists on driving on the wrong side of the road. Lords over the flock…abuse of power. This one is so well documented I don’t feel like talking about it except to say becoming M&A was without exception the most traumatic, horrific experience of my life. Was I going to die? Were my children or spouse? Obviously God was deeply disappointed with me…I know of at one person who became M&A and was contemplating suicide. I don’t know if she did or not because we were M&A shortly after. Waydale saved my whole family.

DWA/spiritual competition. The devil was all powerful and devil spirits behind every door. Major source of abuse. A guy came on to me once and later reported the reverse happened. My tc decided I had a seducing spirit. I had to go to months of counseling going over CF & S….I was scared to death and felt lower than an ant’s butt. This was during my first year in twi. I remember being puzzled when it was all over because my thoughts were no different than they were to start with. I couldn’t identify a single way I was different and I only realized years later the truth of the matter.

I have said enough for one day.

Men may disagree with this, but women actually got a double whammy because we were to submit in everything. To this day (after 7 yrs) I still find myself acquiescing to something my husband wants me to do just because he wants me to. As of the last 2 mos. I have been very focused on looking at things as an individual person and recognizing when I am doing something because I let myself get pushed into something deep down I felt was not right. No matter how minor. And just mindlessly do it just because I was told to. To recognize I am an adult and don’t need someone to tell me what to do or how to do it. This is harder to do than it sounds.

On the other hand, men got much more blame. They were held responsible for everything that went on under their roof, whether it was reasonable or could be helped or not.

No boundaries in twi. You couldn’t EVER say no. There was no place where they stopped and you began. They didn’t stop and you never began.

This to me is the most important part of recovery. Much more important than the doctrinal issues.