another spot

Personally, I keep all my sand evenly distributed…then there’s no temptation to stick my head in it.

Twi’s one shoe fits all formulas are imo much too simplistic. It was God made easy, life made easy, and that by itself is not realistic.

You can look at the book (along with a number of other classics) at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library:

http://www.ccel.org (a non-Catholic source, too, btw, if that matters)

I would also suggest, along those lines, The Way of Perfection, by Teresa of Avila (also available there)

Of course, I didn't write it for praise. I wrote it from my heart.

You are are part of me. I am a part of you. Together we are what we are. I hope to give you something of me that you consider worthwhile from time to time. You certainly give me much...

Eyes: coming from you, high praise indeed!!!

GS is a place to: yell, scream, complain, encourage and be encouraged. It is a place to learn and unlearn. It is a place to put things together and dismantle other things. It is a place of humor, crying and speaking frankly. It is playful and serious. It is a quilt of different colors and patterns. It may be a crazy quilt, but it’s ours. And that’s ok.

Very articulate, Templelady. To that I would add that denominations were compared to the Pharisees and not on their own merits. Then to say the heads of them all were run by “seed boys” was really over the top. The irony of course is twi was a religion itself.

At the same time, I think Keith does raise some valid points:

I think the point about context is very important and a key point to understanding both vp and twi. I thought he was raised Evangelical Reformed…or is that what he got into as an adult? For myself I have no knowledge of what denominations were like back then other than the one I grew up in, which was indeed a negative place (going to hell every five minutes).

Culturally in general the U.S. was fantastically different then. Civil rights were just starting to be addressed (blacks at the back of the bus, separate restrooms, etc), women’s rights, and it didn’t even become against the law to abuse children until the late 80’s and early 90’s. Then there was Viet Nam, Nixon (Watergate). It was a culture in which a significant number of “baby boomers” had little confidence in “the establishment.”

From another perspective, lots of awful things have gone on in history (even today) in the name of religion and those things were carried out by men who thought they were right, all others wrong, and they had/have the right to carry out capital punishment. Religion I think is fine, it’s just some of the people in them and sometimes running them that are the problem.

Markomalley said this on a different thread that I think is appropriate here:

“Something that I thought from the moment that I was exposed to TWI (and still think to this day) is that if the mainline churches did their jobs better, there would have never been a need out there to be filled by a cult group like TWI. And that's a shame.”

Posted by T-bone:

"For this purpose I was scared."

“Where should this go.. don't worry. I can go almost anywhere..”-- Ham.

You’re too easy. You must be a tame squirrel.

Bloviating??? Never heard of it. Looked it up and by golly it’s a real word, and not a typo. Obviate. I know that word. Oblivious? Intimately familiar with that one. The things I learn on GS…

I appreciate the clarification on Life Lines. I had thought they were entirely vp, and later on came across the same quotes in other things I read. Then I was scratching my head about it.

Jean, I am so glad you had a good time. The last vacation I took was about 5 yrs. ago to Maine. It was fun to see the lighthouses.

I’ve learned a lot too. Thank you for taking the journey with me.

Your friend,

Deb

Good perspective, Mark. I'm sure appreciative of your insights.

Eyes, you really write well, and you put a lot of heartfelt honesty in what you write. I’ve learned a lot from you. Like you, I got into it because I wanted to know more. My insides felt there is more that I was missing out on. I felt that very deeply. I think I was right about that.

I think there isn’t a thing wrong with knowledge. What was wrong with twi was the context. God desires all men to come unto a knowledge of the truth, the comforter will lead into the all truth, this is how you rightly divide so you don’t have error, which is all great if not joined with we are right and all others are wrong, the denominations are clueless and evil at the top, we are the true household, etc. Had it been true, it would have been ok. It really would have. Knowledge only puffs up when isolated from love or too heavily emphasized.

I don’t think any of us woke up one morning and decided to join a cult or decided to be arrogant in any way. The packaging gave us the attitudes we had and thus we took on the fruit of the one who taught us. It wasn’t a decision we were cognizant of. Maybe I shouldn’t say “we.” I don’t want to sound like I think I am speaking for everyone.

This all brings me to what is for me the core issue. I went looking for bread, and it really appears I got a stone. Since I don’t believe God would do that, there is another explanation. Is the answer I was simply deceived, or is the answer that I got enough bread to get me to the true bread along with some deception and error? Right now I think the latter, but I’m not sure. Maybe I’ve been on the right path all along, it is just proving to take longer and requiring more effort than I expected (and also a different ending to the story than I thought it was going to be).

I really didn't mean to put this here... And, I'm not even sure where it should go.

I came across some vp quotes on the internet. I have been away from twi long enough they shocked me. First off, how does the dictionary define religion? These are a few points.

1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:

noun

1. a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny;

2. an institution to express belief in a divine power;

"Christianity is not a religion. There is a lot of religion in so-called 'Christianity' today, but that is not God's fault. Religion is what man does; Christianity is what God wrought in Christ. Christianity is not a religion--it is The Way, The Truth, and The Life--it is what God wrought in Christ. It is a father and His family; God is our Father, and we are His children. That puts us in the household of God."

By definition, Christianity is a religion. Of course it is something man does. That is man upward and horizontally. What God wrought is God downward, which we do experience.

"A believer's peace is lost when he allows sincere, religious people to put him under the covenant of works of the Old Testament. And when a believer loses sight of the truth of his standing in Christ then he loses sight of grace, mercy, love and the power of God. Then he gets into confusion as to the truth, and his peace evaporates, and it is gone."

I dunno. I think I’d just as soon remember “Thou shalt not commit adultery…” Of course legalism isn’t right, but my “standing” doesn’t preclude certain works of the O. T. If that causes confusion and loss of peace, so be it. The O. T. doesn’t have truth?

"Religion has made the Word of God of non-effect by its tradition. That is why today men and women are living in deserts of spiritual despair and they drink from the stagnant pool of tradition instead of the fountain-head of God’s revealed and written Word."

I have been to a number of churches since twi. Not one had much tradition, if any.

The people I have met are typically joyous.

"Religion has always enslaved people and pushed them down. It has made them feel incompetent. It has degraded them and told them how sinful they were and how worthless. (Horrid grammar) But the ministry of the Word has brought us up to tell us who we are in Christ Jesus."

Sounds like twi to me…

"The truth which is the true Word of God, today is unsettling to men’s minds because it is truth and it contradicts tradition."

Again, what tradition are you talking about?

"Christianity is not what man does; Christianity is what God has done through Christ. The object of religion will always be to direct the flesh, and by rules and regulations try to make the flesh bring forth spiritual fruit."

Christianity is what man does/practices. You bet, direct the flesh and avoid sin is a good idea. (See Romans). How about we look at spiritual fruit in context?

Galatians 5:19-26 (NIV)

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Ummmm….the acts of the sinful nature sound a lot like twi to me. Clearly the context has to do with directing the flesh not to sin. It is talking about obedience.

And here is my personal favorite:

“Negative motivation is the basic ingredient in our cultures. It sells products; it sells government; it sells religion. Motivation is a primary prerequisite to a successful success, or to a successful failure.”

Negative motivation: how about if you leave you are a copout or a grease spot by midnight? You will die, get possessed, ect.

I'm a biker babe in the UK:

“You can't miss Debbie _____. She wears a pink mohican on her helmet "I'm known for having my pink fluff and hearts. I found this in the Isle of Man and just thought that's perfect!"

And...DEAD!!!!

That is a fun site.

Power for Abundant Living: Unfavorable Downing Trip

The Way International: Wanna Totality Herein

Twig Coordinator: Dictator Grin Woo, Tragic Indoor Tow

BUT THE BEST ONE:

Athletes of the Spirit: A Sheerest Tiptoe Filth

I consulted a dictionary (but forgot to check the Greek word). Butt is used variously. She was the butt of the joke, butt like a goat, to meddle, the end of a cigar, and other usages. I am thinking this is a multi-purpose garment that can be used for a container, covering, and possibly protection. Hopefully it is stretchy and colorful.

I’d be glad to go fishing with you Rascal, if you will agree to bait my hook, remove the fish, and clean them.

Maybe I’ll just watch you.

Boy that brought back a memory I had forgotten. I had a real good friend who was living a way home. He got home from work one night and there was an engaged couple going at it in the middle of the living room floor. He made the mistake of saying something, and got his room torn up the next day while at work.

“In life there will always be folks you get along with and others that rub you the wrong way. In TWI many of us learned to fake it. We were told to just renew our minds and get along with our brother or sister in Christ.”—dooj

That is a real good point. I remember feeling really disoriented after twi with regard to dealing with people, since I no longer trusted anything I ever learned. I started reading Waydale and learning about waybrain and discovered all kinds of things that are impediments to even being a nice person, never mind get along with anyone.

Sushi, that is the funniest avatar I’ve ever seen.

Larry, the feeling is mutual. Absolutely. Here’s what’s funny about that. I got mad at him about some of his early posts. He got mad back. We’ve been good friends ever since. Once I got to know him (which didn’t take long at all), I discovered he’s a really tenderhearted, intelligent person. Maybe it takes more effort to understand and get an accurate picture of someone on the internet. It’s sort of impersonal as a medium.

I think it’s natural to want to defend or at least support your friends.

Why do I keep coming here? Because twi is such a pervasive thing. It is nice to talk things over with other people who have been through it. No one else understands it like we do. And, I’ve have some good friends here.

Ex, let’s all dance the choo choo. Cook hamburgers or something. I’m in.

I actually can spell. 2 years ago, I took an entrance exam so I could take some classes. I scored 100% in spelling, 90 something in grammar, but um, flunked punctuation…

I really don’t get this friction. Jean and I have been working together on the “holy thing” thread. She has stuck with me on it for a long time, from the beginning until now. Others have come and gone. She has been a sweet and good friend. She is level headed, intelligent, and a valuable asset. She is also open minded. I have found her to be really, really great to work with. I would be hard pressed to find a better person to do help me on this project.

I haven’t had as much interaction with John, but it seems to me he is trying.

So what is up with this? Why is it I have such good experiences with Jean and others do not? Seriously. I don't get it.

You know, I can see everyone’s point. Larry, I know you well enough to get where you’re coming from. Whether anyone else can discern it from his posts, I know him to be a kind and gentle man. I also know, no one knows what is in the heart of a man except God and the man himself. We can look at personal experience, the experiences of others, but when it gets down to it, we are responsible for our own actions. We have no control over anyone but ourselves. My ethics may differ from yours, but I don’t feel I have the right to decide the ethics of anyone but me.

What should someone else should do? They have to decide that. Good, bad, or indifferent, we each pave our own way.

Wow, Mark. That’s some really profound stuff. Had I read that book before twi, my involvement would have been much shorter. (Maybe 2 minutes…) I looked up the book in Amazon.com. I would like to buy it. There are 3 others. Do you have them? If so, what do you think of them? I was having a hard time getting a feel for them based on what was at Amazon.

One other question: I have talked to two Catholics, briefly years ago. They both said they weren’t Christians. Do you know why that is?

I’m real glad you’re not in Iraq…My middle son was there (Army). I’m glad he’s back home…aside from the danger, it’s just not a fun place to be. Temperatures during the summer get to 130. The air conditioning in their qtrs. doesn’t work at all when temperatures exceed 120. He said the metal on his cot would get so hot it would literally burn him when he accidentally touched it. They have big problems with dehydration, as it is very difficult to drink enough fluids to keep up with what is being sweat off. The soldiers often get kidney stones because of it. For folks who don’t know, the hardship isn’t just the danger…

Mark, that’s a great post. Your comment about “cracking the books” nails it very well.

I was reading your post in the prayer room. Are you still in Iraq? What happened to the little girl? Do you still want prayer about that?

Eyes: Yep. Funny how we all read about knowledge puffs up and never saw the forest for the trees. Right after leaving twi, I did get it about being “right,” the arrogance, etc. I just didn’t get it that it was still impacting me. Sort of like chopping at the roots without really seeing where they all were. That is really what I meant about the poison. Leaven would be another good description. Thinking you’ve gotten past something may not be the same as really getting past it. This I know now, loud and clear.

You mentioned on another thread about it’s almost easier to toss it all out and start over. I agree.

I would have prayed for you if I had been aware of the problem. I'm certainly glad you're feeling better. I'm back and ready to resume. BTW we had a great time in Washington D.C.

That's sweet, Jean. Tell us about your vacation. Do you have any cool pictures you'd like to post?

Who was Jesus while on earth?

First off we know he was holy at conception.

He had fantastic ability. That is, he walked on water, vanished into thin air from the Pharisees that wanted to kill him, and performed amazing miracles.

Other things:

1. He could ask God for angels: Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

2. He had the authority to forgive sins: Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

3. He had life in himself: Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.

4. He had the authority of judgment: Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man

5. He had authority over sickness and devils: Luk 4:36 And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word [is] this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

6. He had the authority to give it to others: Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

Here is something interesting:

Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I’ve read these verses many, many times and just let it sink in. (Actually I’ve been all over the gospels doing this). The picture I am starting to get is: let’s say I have a son and I am a wealthy person with great resources. I then would bestow to my son all that I have and give him access to it. I would teach him all I could. I would by sheer biology give him my genetic makeup.

Verses 19 and 20 above are saying to me that Jesus wasn’t making up his own rules, but following the example of God’s nature and God was revealing that to him. What God does, he showed to Jesus. God gave Jesus the ability to carry it out. “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” He was a reflection of God. He had the resources and authority God had given him. He was given authority of judgment so that God no longer judges man, Jesus does. He was holy.

He was a man. He was also literally the Son of God.

PS

When I said I don't know about rankings, I meant it literally. As in ignorance...

As I studied Matt. 5, I began to see that Jesus was explaining the difference between obedience to the letter of the law and the heart of it. Verses 21-22:

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire."

The unrighteousness of the Pharisees had to do with performing only the letter of the law, in the sense of outward appearance, ignoring unrighteousness in thinking.

“The point is does your life and your words line up with each other?”—Eyesopen.

I understand your statement now.

Then we have:

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

We become righteous by believing. It remains to act righteously. In reality, we are “approved” by God according to believing unto righteousness and expected to live rightly, which I am sure God approves of also.

I guess I should add, the definition “the right to stand before God without any sense of sin, guilt, or condemnation” doesn’t really work for me. Righteousness to me is something added as opposed to the absence of something in my mind. I suppose it could include that definition, but it would be more of a by product than the thing itself. Not to mention, if I sin, I should feel guilty. That really did cause me some confusion while in twi.

Also: “How righteous are we? As righteous as God.” I dunno. There is a big difference between righteousness of God and as righteous as God. Even Jesus said there was none good but God…

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Ti 2:15 (NIV) Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

There is a really vast difference in meaning between these two translations. In any case, the “approved” is clearly (to me at least) conduct, as opposed to getting approval based on how one handles Scripture and one’s diligence. Although I am sure God would approve of it, if done rightly. In any case, I don’t think that working hard (or diligence) to acquire God’s approval is Scripturally correct, for the simple reason it ignores right conduct in heart and action and changes it to an intellectual and effort exercise. That conflicts with other Scripture and ignores the context, as T-bone pointed out.

Having sorting that out, I think studying is fine. I just don’t do it to get approval. I do it so I can understand.

So, Eyes, I think the correction to the error is righteousness. That is what puts us in harmony with God. And, yes, it was a big deal. I really had to see the root of the problem as it applied to me. I had to see how it stood between me and God and ate as a cancer. It was really quite a realization. That’s putting it mildly.