Galen

Happy New Year everyone.

:)

Our current model of conventional Ag is dependent on petroleum for the manufacture of fertilizers. If we lose access to oil, that segment of our food production is crippled.

Our current model of conventional Ag is dependent on petroleum for herbicide synthesis [especially GMO crop production]. If we lose access to oil, that segment of our food production is crippled.

As for Nuclear pollution, keep in mind that Solar panel manufacture produces more waste in terms of radioactive heavy metals. But it does not get much press. Does anyone remember Solyndra? Why were they not allowed to open for business? They would have been producing solar panels, and also as a by-product radioactive heavy metal waste. Solyndra could not pass the EPA requirements for disposal of the waste. Which is why Mexico produces so much of our solar panels and IC chips.

:)

I enjoyed the trip.

I saw a lot of stuff that I had read about for years.

They were very good about avoiding 'traditional' sites that have no Biblical standing.

But with the passing of years, I look through so many photos and they are all photos of strangers.

Enjoy your trip :)

Hey Galen, that's a great story. I see your point about the lighting, and not being in any of the footage. I would LOVE a youtube link, if you could provide one.

Try this:

From there you can find the rest :)

I went in 2000. At the time I was living in Italy, I met the group at the airport in Jerusalem. The closest flight arrival I could get to their arrival was 14 hours before them. So I had a long wait in the terminal for them to arrive.

I did not know any of them. So it was a group of strangers. There were lots of groups coming through the terminal. Not knowing anyone in the group, made it more stressful, as I did not have much to go on in terms of spotting the right group.

I volunteered to carry and hold the lighting for the video equipment during each teaching. That was fun, but we were expecting to get copies on DVD soon afterward. The camera man was a professional from LA, with professional gear. But it never happened. Years went by. My inquiries were never answered. Then last fall [2013] the videos were finally made available on Youtube. That was sure a long delay.

In a way, looking back, I would have been better off to not help with the lighting. During most of the teachings the camera would scan the surroundings and the crowd. Everyone in the group was filmed, except for the camera man and myself.

Everyone did take a lot of photos. After the trip we did share the photos, and they were burned onto a CD. Again it was a group of people who all knew each other, so many of the photos were of each other. If I had brought my wife, then at least we would have photos of each other in all those Biblical sites.

If you go, make a point of having someone else take your photo, at each place. So when your done, ten years from now, you will have photos of you at those places. Otherwise, ...

Galen, I seem to remember awhile back in one of your posts you appeared to espouse the thought that it's o.k. for a guy to have multiple wives ? Just wondering if you still ascribe to that thinking...and is that one of the deciding factors in your going back to twi ? Just wondering, coz where I came from, the leadership there now appear to condone having 'concubines'.

I can not see forbidding things that God does not forbid. Nor discouraging things that God commands.

The only thing I ever heard on this topic was VPW teaching that polygamists were sex perverts [ which includes nearly all OT prophets].

So....I ask you to please elaborate and THIS is your answer? A vague generalization that all men sin?

I was hoping that is was not vague. That was why I put it in capital letters.

Is there a better method?

Do I repeat it a hundred times, before it grows to more than a vague generalization?

Paul [a divorcee] traveled a lot. His recorded traveling companions were named men. In one passage Paul defends his associating with women.

1Cor9:3 indicates that he was being accused of mischief.

4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?

5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?

7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

If this passage were strictly about him being an hireling, then there was no need to mention females in the passage.

He could freely eat of the harvest, the carnal things of the harvest. The harvest was not money from which to pay an hireling. The harvest was the 'babe's in the word that followed him.

I suspect that VPW used this passage, in his own reasoning to justify his actions.

... Well, in my opinion.....willful, deliberate sinning on his motorcoach between campuses and then, arriving to "teach the word" (cough, cough) to more gullible youth is outside the boundaries of "we all sin."

Easier to justify than killing fellow christians right?

But, hey I got my pension. So killing a few dozen Christian Forces in Kosovo was worth it right? :)

And yet somehow in TWI it always comes around to the leadership never admitting they sin, and the cover-up of apparent sin, all along with the abusive judgment of those under their authority. It kind of reminds me of the parable of the unjust ruler. Except in the end of that parable justice is served, yet in TWI somehow the abusers continue to remain in power and the blind do nothing about it.

I have participated in this being discussed in Twig.

A great many of the 'old timers' have been on this forum, or one of the previous forums, and are aware of what happened.

When I first began attending this Twig, the Coordinator [Ex-Corpse] and I had a number of conversations about his insistence on willful blindness. At times he had to go to great lengths, just to retain his 'positive attitude' and refuse to admit that wrong doing had happened. I rather enjoyed correcting him at times.

Our last Region Coordinator, follows this forum as well. He and I have spoken a few times about the things I post here. :)

... I agree with you. Perhaps this is the problem - that TWI is not a godly organization. The behavior of those in power is self-serving rather than Christ-serving. So Biblical leadership principles are twisted around the politics of the paranoid few in power rather than truly being Christ-centered.

I agree.

It is generally my turn once a month to share a teaching. I do simple 'word studies'. As we were taught years ago. As I have always done. [Pick a passage, look for figures of speech, examine the original words used, with deeper insight reexamine the context to see how this changes the flavor of the context.] They all know how to do this. But it seems, that after many years of micromanagement, they have lost the ability. The others will read a magazine article, or a passage from some other book, reading around the Bible rarely the Bible itself.

... Impugn Paul's character so VP doesn't look so bad in comparison?

I had not thought to impugn Paul.

No one on this forum [that I am aware[ of has done anything to make VPW look less bad. Certainly not I.

Interesting that you wish to paint me in such a manner.

Galen....I find it rather interesting that your response to sock's statement "All men are liars that's what the big book says"

is to first address it by saying "I have seen, a few 'hints' in the New Testament that Paul may have been a womanizing scoundrel as well."

WOW, just WOW --- hints....may......womanizing.....scoundrel......as well.

On one hand, you subtly induce doubt about the character and integrity of the Apostle Paul....

Subtly induce doubt? Let me say it louder for you.

ALL MEN ARE SINNERS.

WE ALL SIN.

WE ARE FALL SHORT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

... you mention that a couple people in the twig you attend "worship VPW." So, have you taken them aside and taught them the more perfect way, the Lord Jesus Christ?

Yes, I have. It upset him very much, caused doubt and anguish, in that broken man's soul.

I have spoken with the coordinator. We decided that this guy needs time. He was gone for a long time, and only recently returned. He has much to assimilate.

That may have been a true statement. A very sad statement about that person's life, if true.

I agree.

I remember the oral examination when I qualified in submarines and earned my dolphins. One of the things I was required to do was to explain how I would accomplish the boat's mission if various other people in the crew were dead or disabled. I'm sure you remember that as a part of leadership training in the submarine service, Galen. It was NEVER part of leadership training in the Way Corps.

Of course I remember. And yes, I agree with you.

I have stated this same thing many times.

Thank you for agreeing.

... There were several other factors of naval leadership that were ignored in the Way Corps. According to Petty Officer 3&2 the three basic requirements of naval leadership are 1. good moral behavior, 2. personal example, and 3. administrative ability. The reasons were these: 1. if you lie and cheat, your followers will feel it's okay to lie and cheat on you, your followers will NOT treat you with respect if you treat them with disrespect, 2. you have to be able and willing to do yourself anything you ask your followers to do, and 3. administrative ability is tertiary and trainable.

I am well verse with the US Navy's methodology of 'leadership'.

I also see the leadership requirements as listed in Timothy and in Titus. I have brought these up in Twigs. I have even taught these in Twigs.

Yet TWI was not formed in a manner to accept, or utilize Biblical leadership principles.

What the Navy does, works for the Navy. Keep in mind that the Navy destroys a lot of men's lives. Their system works for mission accomplishment. That does not mean it should be mimicked anywhere else.

IMHO, in a godly organization, Biblical leadership principles should be used. :)

... Leadership in TWI was NOTHING like the genuine leadership I experienced in the military, and Way Corps training I received had NO SUBSTANCE similar to the training I received in the Nuclear Power Program and the Submarine Service.

I am certain you are correct.

:)

So, in your experience, twi's in-house, 4-year training program, where they spend 4 years of a person's life- at the person's expense, teaching the person doctrine, practice, conduct, and so on,

produces practice and conduct WORSE than the people who never entered that program.

Yes.

Perhaps not 100% of the time, but certainly a majority of the time.

... Doesn't that say something about twi?

To me it says that after VPW took BG Leonard's class and cut it down, he also gave it a marketing spin. VPW was a salesman. He built an organization focused on marketing classes.

I have nothing against BG Leonard's work. But he never marketed it in the same manner, and never got the response that VPW got.

With every injustice such as this I have experienced I have considered is the organization worth saving or is it a scenario where it is beyond where you can put new wine into old wineskins.

I was recently working through the Gospels, and I came to the 'wineskin' topic. In context, Jesus spent a lot of time telling the Jews that the Gentiles were going to be coming into the fellowship. He spoke of this in many parables. A recurring theme of Jesus' to the Jews.

Yes aged wine may be 'better', but it gets replaced with new wine in new vessels.

Move to California Galen. You need to get out more.

I am from California.

I have been Twig Coordinator of two different Twigs in California. As well as in four other states and one other country.

galen, i'm a way corpse grad and i want to know about that tattoo on your arm 666

I have no tattoo on my arm.

I have one on my chest, two sea monsters chewing on a garbage can. It is my combat medal that I wore for many years, and decided to have tattooed on the spot where it goes on my uniform.

:)

all men are liars that's what the big book says

I have seen, a few 'hints' in the New Testament that Paul may have been a womanizing scoundrel as well. I am not making excuse for VPW, or any of this batch.

I see a lot of corruption in mainstream churches, I seem to see corruption everywhere. Men get 'power' and ... I do not think that power corrupts them, by itself. But that likely we are all corrupt to begin with. Power allows the corruption to grow.

People put VPW on a pedestal. They convinced themselves he was holy. That it would be a spiritual honor to ...

I see it now, in the Twg we attend. We have a couple people who clearly still worship VPW. Less than a month ago I heard: "... I was sitting in a class, he walked by and touched my shoulder, and that was the most spiritual moment of my entire life..."

well,we know some of them became adept liars or at best, experts at 'twisting'the truth, all in the name of protecting the 'ministry'.We'll have to catch up for an ale some time I heard some of their lies about us,all it did was solidify our decision to leave being the right one. I remember one time bumping into the oirish git in public and the look on his face as he frantically punched his mobile keys ( I presume he was calling for back up ??!! lol.) He looked so full of fear...but then that couldn't be right....could it...?? hahahahahaha

The first Way Corpse I ever met face-to-face was Steve Strezpec, I had caught him in his web of lies to the believers. The first day, he declared that I was born of the adversary and booted me out from the fellowships.

Over the years, I have been booted out three times. Each time, I was booted out by a Way Corpse. Each time, they were in direct violation of scripture. The last time, they demanded that we burn our Bibles.

I have never seen that kind of behavior among Joe believers.

Our current Twig Coordinator knows all about this, as does our region-whatever. I have not hidden my previous experiences with Way Corpse from the folks in our current twig. When we got back into it this time around, the region Coordinator is a guy who I had witnessed to, long ago.

Among Joe Believers; there may be some who are HOT, and some who are mild. Among Joe Believers, I have never experienced that kind of evilness, that I have experienced from among some of the Way Corpse.

Absolutely. Opinions can and do vary all across the board. I think, though, that behavior trumps opinion on these matters. You may be of the opinion that someone is a class A yet their behavior reveals them to be a class B. I'm just sayin'.

Not really.

A ring-knocker is a ring-knocker.

I have never met: VP Wierwille, geer, rivenbark, townsend, lynn, or cumm!ns.

I assume that most of them would fit into Group B.

I did meet Martindale once, he was clearly a jerk during the 2 minutes that I was in his presence.

Galen.....thanks for your candid response.

I know of many who view this as you do.

For me, I just don't see how people can compartmentalize "good in pfal"

and "evil exploitation in twi's corps program."

Wierwille 'authored' both.....

In my very limited exposure, I would have to say that Way Ministry Followers come in two primary flavors, or groups.

A- people who have been loving, helpful and who seemed to be very authentic in ministering for God. The group A people have been wonderful. I have enjoyed knowing them and all of my dealing with them.

B- people who have not been loving; nor helpful; and who I suspect were motivated out of pride or power trips. Group B people, well, there have only been a few instances where being around them was pleasant. We have always had to keep our 'guard up' around them. There have been many cases, in my life, where people from this group have been very hateful, and have tried to take advantage of me and others in the fellowship.

In my experience, these two groups [A and B] have basically encompassed the vast majority of Way Ministry followers.

I have voiced this opinion many times on this forum previously.

This has been my observation, since I first began attending Way fellowships. Fellowships are comprised of these two groups.

I have generally learned to spot them quickly. Fortunately group B people will tell, you right up front that they are in this group.

People you suspect of being in group A, nearly always prove themselves to be from group A [loving, kind, helpful and authentic].

Likewise people who tell you they are in group B eventually prove themselves have the characteristics of group B.

We hang out mostly with group A people.

I am sure that you know who the group B people are.

Does anyone stick around after the class is over?

Of what I see, about half.

The foundational class, run by good-hearted folk, far from hq is one thing......

The corps program, an indoctrination process to vpw and twi-servitude, is quite another.....

So, what's the inrez corps numbers? Are these numbers still in single digits?

I do not know.

In the 70s, I did not care what the corpse did.

I don't care what the corpse does today.

I doubt I will care in the future.

:)

As twi classes and programs dwindle to a halt.....I cannot help but wonder if advanced class grads and corps are TIRED OF THE LECTURING. ...

Classes have been ran in my area. More classes are being planned.

many might have to "get their needs met on facebook" as more sites go down

ps. i don't belong to facebook much too exhausting for me

but this site has become almost as boring as being in residence

this is not meant to be an insult

after all my years on here, i still don't want to leave

but ohmygosh

I generally follow any discussions, but I rarely post anymore. So much other stuff going on. :)

Happy New Year to everyone.

May God bless you in all you do.

Classes are still offered, books are still available.

Many sections of the book are word-for-word copied in PFAL, Though over-all PFAL is much shorter and briefer.

Tread softly

:)

Galen,

You are a bit of a puzzle to me. You've been around for decades and apparently are still in at this time, but you still call the fellowships "twigs"? That moniker has not been used for over 15 years and most good wayfers would have had that drilled out of them long ago. Are you sure you go to a TWI sanctioned Household Fellowship? ...

I am pretty sure that our fellowship / twig is 'sanctioned' as much as possible. Some get the magazine and the Sunday Service DVDs, and we get regular announcements of upcoming events.

Some of us use the phrase 'twig' and some use 'fellowship'; I have not been told of any distinction between the use of these phrases.

... Lastly my wife would like to go but she is afraid people will start to think that we will be coming back and that would not be the case. We would just be visiting. She knows most of the people around in The Way in our area. Do you think it matters?

... Would that be wrong of us to go if there is no idea of us staying?

... I am just asking questions.... Thanks for the help.

I do not think that it would matter.

I do not think that it would be 'wrong' in any manner to go to a fellowship when your motive is not to re-join. Your just curious and want to check it out. I see no harm on that.

In my history, I have been kicked out three times; and each time I soon transferred to a different area. Afterwards each time when I approached a new twig, I was welcomed. There was always a few questions about where I had been in twigs before and which classes I had taken. But never did anyone ask me any details about why I had been booted out.

I 're-entered' twigs in Virginia, and in Washington and here in Maine. Now I also did a few transfers where I was happily attending twig before my transfer, and made smooth transitions to new twigs in the new areas. Thinking back, I do not recall there honestly being any difference. When approaching a twig in a new area, I do not think that anyone there will really cares 'why' you left the previous twig.

A few weeks ago I was at a dinner, and they got to talking about new 'pins' they have. Ten-year pins, twenty-year pins, thirty-year pins, etc. Our Region Co said to me that since I had been in and out many times, if I sat down with a calendar and figured out how many years I had spent 'in' that I could then ask for an appropriate pin from him. I do not feel that having been out is seen as any kind of stigma.

If you want to go back fine, it you do not want to go back fine. They would be happy to see you, regardless of the circumstances.

..... Doing my own independent research apart from what I was taught in school I thought would disqualify me as a wayfer.... Or am I wrong? Did I miss understand the meaning of what you are saying?

That would make you the IDEAL wayfer, in most twigs I have been in.

Yes there are the robots that read from the blue-book, or green-book, or brown-book, or magazine, etc. Not all wayfers do any form of research, and some twigs will be entirely make of the robots. But every class offered encourages each individual to do their own Independent research.

When I got into The Way there was a emphasis on each person doing their own independent research. That was what got me 'hooked', it was the encouragement for each person to do his/her own study. As has been discussed many times on these forum, the majority of wayfers never did any themselves. Which is why there are the robots.

I could go to sea with a pre-determined topic of study [My Dw and I having both decided on the topic]. Me with my handy KJV, Strong's Exhaustive, a Brown-Driver-Briggs, and my Dw with hers. 3 1/2 months later after I had surfaced and returned home; we could compare notes and be amazingly like-minded on what we had learned. We did that routine seventeen times [which is how many submarine patrols I have made, all of them ranging around 3 1/2 months long].

And every time the twigs we have been in, have been excited to have either or both of us to present our notes as 'teachings' in fellowship.

The twig we are in now encourages this. We rotate among us each week, which of us gets to teach. Everytime my Dw or I share a topic it is always some off-the-wall thing that we have worked, and the folks in our twig love it.

If you came along with a seminary background and doing your own independent research, you would be embraced in the twig we attend now.

You would have been embraced in most of the twigs that we have been in [though I openly that not all twigs would embrace this, as folks who do their own research are rare. Regardless of how much it is encouraged most people simply do not do it].

:)

WordWolf -

Just to clear up a misunderstanding, I am not a Knight Templar.

But it's not inappropriate that of the money you put in the horn 75% of it goes to pay their salaries? Wow. This is called being an "enabler".

I'm not trying to be too harsh here, Galen. This is a very common attitude among TWI'ers. "Just take care of yourselves and your twig and God will sort out the rest". But there are blinders on. The majority are being used to enable the evil that goes on at the top. This is why when I became aware of it and realized it was not going to change I voted with my feet. My life, talents, energies, money, free time, education, expertise will NOT be used to enable the abuse that runs rampant in this cult. And I won't turn a blind eye to it any more, I will expose it. The only way evil exists is when good people do nothing to stop it.

When I was a teen, I was a member of my local Southern Baptist church. Their tithe went to paying the salary of our minister, a custodian, a secretary, etc. The rest went to the Southern Baptist Convention.

Then about the time I was a senior in high school it came out that most of our money had gone to South America where it had been supporting revolutionaries there. An investigation about the killings of missionaries showed that it was our tithe money that had paid for their weapons.

I know all about the ways in which tithe money can be used to churches.

Today I am a member of a men's fraternity, who has been openly hunted by various governments at the bequest of the Roman Catholic Church. In fact as a US servicemember I served in a nation where my fraternity is 'illegal' and members who are discovered are subject to imprisonment. All thanks to the tithes of Catholics.

As far as I know, EVERY church that takes tithe is likely doing evil with it. This is the nature of organized churches. They are businesses. They operate on a bottom line, they must show a profit so they can support their salaried personnel.

This is not about blinding anyone's eyes.

I found wonderful truths about God while I was first attending a twig.

I have also had run-ins with corpses. The first Corpse Grad I ever met was an arsehole, I caught him lying to believers, he admitted it to me and I made it known to the believers he was lying to. He [steve Strezpec] proclaimed to everyone that I was born of Satan's seed and threw me out of the fellowship.

In fact most corpses I have ever met were arseholes; but that does not over-ride the fact that I have also met a great many wonderful believers.

We have seen healings and miracles. Through out all of the horrible abuses that leaders have done, there has also been some very special people who I am glad that I knew.

Among all of this there have also been a few leaders who have been good men. Of course anywhere you look, when people strive to be leaders they are usually power hungry arseholes. That is life.

I served for over 20 years in the Navy, I know all about arseholes. Simply because a few exist is not reason to trash the entire US Navy. Nor is it reason to trash all of the good that is done in twigs.

The 'life' of the Way is in the twigs. The twig we are in now is great. Got a question about anything? Lets open concordances, lexicons, Bibles and study it.

Our Limb Coordinator now is a great guy. I have known him for 30+ years. He is not power hungry, nor does he have any evil intent. Rather he is pretty knowledgeable of the Bible and very loving.

So to expand on this - starting currently - the current President was chosen due to a sex scandal combined with developing a deep and questionable relationship with the former President's wife which was used as political maneuvering to be placed as the 2nd in command so as to capitalize on the sex scandal. None at the top levels have training on how to run corporations. Best choice? Rather transparent.

The past 2 Presidents have had severe issues with sex scandals, have a history of damaging many of their own top people's lives irreparably. The second president was chosen due to unquestioning obedience. Best choice?

The Way Corps - a group with over a 90% attrition rate over time (I guess you'd call that poorly chosen), the training consists of learning unquestioning obedience to leadership, and salesmanship of classes, and going over and over and over current publications. That's not so much lacking training but training the wrong things to be ministers. Best choices?

What I said was not in the context of ministry BOD or presidents. I was only talking about Twig coordinators and Corpse personnel.

I do understand that there have been issues with past and present presidents; though I have never known any of them, nor have I ever had any dealings with them. Since the people that you wish to discuss would be strangers to me, I feel it would be inappropriate for me to talk about them.

ANything I should look out for.....

In all of the studies I have been in have been in I like to challenge the one teaching. I encourage it in my own students as well. I just learn better in a dialogue and I just do it out of my own nature. Will I have to keep my mouth shut the hole time?

My wife is also afraid if we show up they might think she would be coming back when we definitely wouldn't. She just thinks it might help me understand the way better. I just feel like I ask too many questions.

People on this forum have all had different experiences. There was a long period where leaders were poorly chosen, lacked training, and may not have been the best choice. But then again at the same time there have also been fellowships that have been the greatest.

In the fellowship I attend now, your 'challenges' would be welcomed. There is a desire to keep things 'in order'. Which simply means to be respectful during the fellowship, but once we break for coffee or a meal; then it is fair game to ask questions, or 'challenge' anyone.

We rotate among us each week for who is going to present something. Really if you challenged me, I would like it. I like doing 'word studies', so any opportunity to open the Bible and look at a context, or usages of a term is largely what we do.

It is kind of boring if nobody ever does that. :)

I think that among my fellowship your honest questions would be welcome and encouraged.