Tzaia

They used terms like spiritualy mature enough to handle their freedoms in Christ.

Which was a form of flattery. Who in TWI would not wish to consider themselves spiritually mature? The first time I heard that load of crap, I pulled out the verse about all being given an equal measure of spirit. Then it became a "matter of faith." That load of crap was countered by my "belief" that if you had to flatter and offer fake relationships to get people to come on board and become spiritually mature, perhaps what TWI was offering wasn't all that desirable.

Once you figure out the reasons they are attracted to TWI, how can you talk them out of them, though?

I wouldn't try. As much as it's hard to see someone do that to themselves, sometimes it's just best to be there. I would keep in contact and continue to go to church (if that's what you are doing) and simply LOVE your friends. Don't get into doctrinal discussions, don't do anything more than look puzzled when they slip into wayspeak, don't do anything but be their friend.

True movements of God aren't cloistered...

JAL doesn't get out in the world much. I can only imagine that his brother's funeral was his first church experience in many years, so his perspective is very narrow.

I agree frames are outdated, but I can generally navigate them just fine. was the site built to reject all browsers except IE? if so, that leaves us mac usin'/firefox lovin' people out in the cold.

Unless one is designing for .NET or using ActiveX controls, there's no need to do what has been done on that site.

We have a new article examining Lynn’s extremely rosy view of TWI at www.abouttheway.org

click on "New" to find the link

Just an FYI. Don't create a web site that has to use IE to work. Not only is it annoying, but it's rather controlling. It's a frames page, which is so 20th century.

I saw plenty of efforts to help those who were beyond the "good future pfal salesmen" stereotype that is often advertised here, now. I myself took part in many such attempts to help those who were beyond that stereotype, and I saw plenty of other leaders doing the same. It was from them that I learned this kind of genuine love. I once actually brought an obvious Down's Syndrome teenager to my twig and led him into SIT, and I vaguely recall another mentally deficient person I ministered to, but the details escape me just now.

I think the situation you describe is often exaggerated.

The effort was in getting people to take the class. There were efforts past the class and I think you are correct when you use the word "attempt," because nothing beyond attempt was done. TWI had/has no pastoral aspect. That was one of the things I became aware of early on and TWI was proud of that non-pastoral state of being. Pastoring infers a not-so-abundant life.

The thing about TWI is that initially it is willing to meet people where they are, but becomes impatient when people don't go to the preferred TWI state of being.

She took PLAF and a handful of the core (not corps) classes so that we would qualify as being equally yoked together. Can't marry an unbeliever now can we?

That's it in a nutshell. My boyfriend (now my husband of 28 years) could not have a relationship with someone who had not taken the class. Ok, whatever. I'll do it if you pay for it. Once he saw what a pain in the butt it was to keep up with the jones' as far as involvement with a kid (much less 3 of them), we really scaled it back. He'd done the WoW thing in college - wasn't impressed. He'd taken the AC - and wasn't impressed. I read the WoW requirements from the stuff he had kept along with the AC syllabus and didn't want to go there or do that. I just didn't have the heart for it.

Mike,

Cutting is like me pounding my head on a wall when I had a migraine. The pain of the pounding eased the pain in my head. People cut to ease the pain of their being. It is called self-injury and it is not done to self-punish. Cutting is associated with Borderline Personality Disorder and Depressive Disorder. It is widespread among younger people and while it may be a banner of pride among some within the artistic community, there is largely shame associated with cutting. Wearing very long sleeves or sleeves with thumb holes so there's no chance of showing arm is a good indication the person is a cutter.

Getting people to take the class was, when I first became involved in the '70s, the way to bring people to deliverance. Strict adherence to the principles of PFAL would deliver everyone from his/her issues. I believe when that didn't actually happen and it was discovered that pastoring had a place in a church, that TWI started steering away from those who obviously needed deliverance. In other words, if PFAL was not going to deliver a person from their need, then it was time to steer clear of those people with obvious needs.

Tz--do you really know and understand how much TWI had an impact on your life? If you have honestly looked at this and evaluated it with great understanding and still say it didn't effect you. Good for you. I am happy for you.

I wish I could say that.

I stood up to plenty of Corps and leadership--I was still in a cult.

As a twenty-something, I was attracted to the "specialness" and the ideological "rightness" of the organization - after I took the class, which I would have never done had I had to pay for it. I have honestly evaluated and believe that because I had no desire to take it any further than I did, that I simply didn't have the same experience that many others who were involved did. I was kind of involved in a cult, but it didn't have me. I didn't limit how I lived my life in order to fit into the structure.

I never witnessed. I never brought anyone to fellowship (heck, my attendance put me in the backslider category). I did not sign up one person to take the class. I never had a green card to give to anyone. I simply did not think it was a ministry that was a good fit for most of the people I knew or came into contact with. I was of the opinion that if what you were doing was working, by all means continue with that.

I did struggle with the notion of needing to fellowship with people with "right doctrine." That notion sent me into a splinter for a while, but when I started seeing the same behaviors that I did not like about TWI, I dropped the fellowship and simply did nothing for a few years. Once I dispensed with doctrine as a requirement for fellowship, which was about 8 years ago, I haven't felt an impact other than an amazement for putting so much emphasis on it in the past. I find doctrinal disputes to be divisive and I don't go there anymore.

I believe there is a need for corporal worship and a need to function within the body for all believers and I do not believe there is one best way to accomplish that, nor have I ever believed that.

TWI was never pastoral. Its idea of girding up and undershepherding was to equip people to sell the class. The whole purpose of twig, WoW and corp was to sell the product - PFAL and all the other classes. By believing your way out of problems and issues (or ignoring any problems or issues), people could focus on the one true purpose - PFAL.

Being a cutter is not harmonious with the goals of TWI, unless it could be used to promote TWI (as in it being responsible for someone's deliverance from the problem through some sort of miracle).

That is a valid point.

Well, well, well, it happened - name change

I don't know if it's so much about whether he doesn't have a case.. maybe it's more a matter of whether any potential reward will actually be "collectable"..

What I wonder.. are these guys still at each other's throats?

What they need.. is a third party unaffected by their particular brand of nuttiness to sit as an arbitrator..

maybe it's too late for that.. who knows..

for a small handful of pecans, I'd consider..

My understanding from talking to MG was that they were in mediation.

The main problem that I see with keeping the name the same is that it appears to limit the discussion to what caused the formation of the separate forum.

So, deny you were involved in a cult if you want. As far as I am concerned intentional or not, we were an integral part of an organization that betrayed, and destroyed the lives of so many many innocent people in the name of God and facilitated by scriptures. Our youth, exuberance, witnessing, homes, etc were all the lure, what attracted people into the snare. I don`t know what else TO call it :(

Rascal,

I don't deny being TWI was/is a cult. I don't believe I was a take-parter. I was a person who did stand up to a WC grad. I did stand against things I did not believe were good, right, or true.

I had no idea that things were happening to people at the scale that you all report. I was put off enough by what I was seeing that I couldn't, in good conscience, bring anyone else into it.

Most fundamentalist Christians vote Republican. Many who were involved with TWI voted Libertarian. A few actually ran for public office on the Libertarian ticket.

There was one TWI person I know of who held an elected office.

My husband and I were talking the other night about when we knew we were involved in a cult. My husband maintains that while TWI was perceived as a cult, our level of involvement kept it from being a cult in our lives.

I was told early on that I was in a cult. I had even talked to a few friends and stated that I could not call TWI a cult, simply based on the non-trinitarian factor that seems to be necessary to define a cult. I could not call TWI a cult on the basis of mind control, because TWI never controlled my mind - not that people didn't try - it just never happened.

Until the big break in 1987, I knew about how sex was used by one WC person to entice people to take the class, but I wasn't aware of any sort of pervasiveness. I was also aware of the shift towards not having friends outside TWI, but I didn't partake in that thinking. I also knew that it was recommended that we attend twig 3 times a week, but we didn't do that, either. I knew about abundant sharing and the 15% thing, but paid no attention. I never signed a person up to take the class. I never went witnessing. I never went WoW or had the desire. I struggled with some of the beliefs, but not too much. No one asked us to leave. While there was some pressure, no one pressured to the point of us leaving or us submitting. I do remember some pressure over things, but I had no problem telling people that my life was none of their business.

When we did leave, we left with no regrets, no baggage, other than a box of tapes - many which had never been listened to. We thought that LCM was a nut case and simply stopped listening to him. No one kicked us out. We continued to receive mailings for years after we stopped receiving the magazine and tapes until I asked for us to be removed from the mailing list after one of LCM's homo rants. We did participate in a splinter for a while, but even that got old pretty quickly, especially after the introduction of stuff that we definitely didn't agree with and substantial pressure to participate even after we had said we weren't interested. We stopped going when it was clear that fellowships were evolving into even more of scripted "spontaneous" manifestations than anything ever experienced at TWI. We partnered with the splinter for a number of years after that, but not a significant amount. Eventually, even that stopped. I felt relief from the drama.

So was I really ever a part of a cult?

I did control my thoughts, and it royally ticked off more than a few people in TWI, because I wouldn't let them control them.

Sure I wanted to fit in. Sure I wanted to "let go and let God" but not if it did not feel like the best thing for me, so I continued to control my own thoughts and did what I believed was best.

Geeze, Too bad Wierwille didn't do that!

Ain't that the truth!

He seemed to be pretty joined at the hip with the adversary or however someone spells it, but then someone deeply entrenched in TWI would take a misspelled word and totally dismiss the argument on that basis alone.

I would like to see this name changed because while it was an effective name during the heat of the crisis, I would like to see it become more generic in nature.

I'd also like to see individual forums representing the other splinters of TWI in this area as well.

This "changing of the name" is supposed to be something "biblical". Like.. Abram becoming Abraham, Sarai becoming Sarah.. because something fundamentally supposedly changed.

In CES's case, what, if anyone could even see.. what fundamentally changed?

same "take" on "truth".. same classes, same materials.. same worn out "worda gawd" like it supposedly hasn't been known since the first century.

I really think that with the change of the name, they really thought something was changing in a fundamental manner. What was it supposed to be?

just a few thoughts..

I got the impression they were leaning towards having more of an identity with church than being a teaching ministry and the name change was to signify the differentiation and keep them from the prying eyes of the IRS.

I think you might be interested in the notion that much of this change was built around the greater spiritual power derived from personal prophecy. Oh yeah, huge deciding factor.

I know, it's childish and nonsensical and boorishly rude to make such a connection. Indicative of a small mind, so to speak, metaphorically speaking. I'm sure that all of STFI's plans and movements are big. But still, on the far end of the extreme of considerations someone must have blinked and smiled. Or maybe not. Guess not, by all appearances. Yet, there is sits like a duck - STFI.

Yup they said that very thing, which is why the name was kept. Good people won't notice. We don't want anyone who would.

This thread's got some hair on it. 2003!

I mentioned that I came across the thread while doing a search on Momentus. I was there when the name was selected, so I thought the insight would be interesting - even at this late date.

Hmm. This thread is so "delightful".. how'd I miss it Taz?

It's almost like.. they moved from a more "masculine" Christian educational services.. to a more in touch with their femine side.. "spirit and truth international.." It's almost like.. they've submitted themselves to some kind of "operation".. but somehow, they've retained the raging male egotism..

Maybe I'm wrong.. or maybe the squirrel has had a little too much cabernet or something..

if it makes sense here.. good. If offensive, or nuts.. just ignore me..

Yeah, like I get offended easily...

I don't know about the feminine/masculine thing. It seemed natural to call CES something in the same realm as TWI because most of us were not so disenchanted with what we had believed TWI was as much as the behavior. At the time it wasn't believed TWI was rotten to the core; just misguided. It seemed like the CES principals were repentant individuals who knew why TWI failed, wanted to keep the good, and rework the bad. Fast forward a few years and talk of becoming a real church entity. By this time I was done with weird and I thought perhaps CES was at the same place, so I'm talking about getting an old church building with places for offices, a place where worship can take place, and for cryin' out loud a real band with real seeker style services. I was viewed as the nut. No CES wants to keep the home fellowship concept and give ourselves a dorky name so everyone will know immediately what we are all about <== an elitist, combative, dissociative group of people.

Maybe I'm just disgruntled.

"Spirit and Truth Fellowship" ????<BR><BR>what in the wide wide world of sports kind of name is that?<BR><BR>sounds kinda spooky if ya ask me!<BR>(also kinda high minded)<BR><BR>... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...

Sorry - I was doing a search on Momentus and found this thread. There was a "name the church" "contest" and I use that term because that's what it was touted as, but I'm pretty sure the name had already been decided upon and the "contest" was simply a waste of time.

As far as what kind of name is that, I asked the same thing. I thought the name was dorky and said so. I was told that it embodied what the organization was all about. So? It's a dorky name. Can't you possibly call it something that isn't so weird? Can't say it as an acronym without snickering. I got a weird look, so someone asked the young guys if what I was saying was so. Duh! Kept the name, but dropped the "i" in the website.

Tzaia asked this on the ARGOT thread:

Who can put the most TWI buzz phrases in a single sentence?

Winner gets a holy spirit dove pin (provided they can believe for a sponsor to make it available.)

I have one that I've never worn. It's not TWI issue, and it's definitely girly, but what the heck.

I believe it is available to believe to receive like-mindedness while renewing my mind according to the word to experience the Christ in me (the hope of glory) because the word says what it means and means what it says.

Who can put the most TWI buzz phrases in a single sentence?