Tzaia

I gotta say that my first few "twigs" were very open and instructive. In fact, they were so helpful that an edict had to be handed down to NOT talk so much before a person took the class.

The real problems started when I joined the WC.

Interesting that you say that. Was the edict handed down before or after you joined the WC?

So if you were like me and attended twig for several months before taking PFAL, much of what was "taught" went completely over the head - due to not understanding the lingo. Taking PFAL meant finally knowing what people were saying. Twig would be like setting anyone who wasn't computer literate into a group setting with a bunch of geeks discussing computers. Most people have no idea what we are saying, but it sure sounds interesting. That was my twig experience before PFAL.

There was nothing along the lines of a "seeker" level gathering (unless you count the open meetings that were designed to entice people into signing green cards through interesting activities that, come to find out, were not regular activities). Not only is there no seeker type of entry level teaching and gathering, it appears to be something that's done deliberately either to get people to take the 101 thing to learn the lingo, or create a sense of urgency to do so. TWI and most splinters don't do milk. They go right to the meat.

Having gone through PFAL made me aware that it was not available to be creative, because only God creates and there's nothing new under the sun. For a long time I thought it honored God to avoid using that word, but I've come to believe that it was designed to keep people from creative thinking.

I think absolute truth is available today.

So did a lot of us. It's that promise of absolute truth that provides the hook. It is also the reason why Jesus was rejected as the messiah by both the Jews and Islam. He failed on a number of what were considered essential qualities of a messiah.

What we don't know is how many turned away based on the notion that the kingdom did not arrive soon after the ascension as Jesus stated would happen. This was a very real belief during the time immediately following his crucifixion.

This is not popular.

It is very popular, just not here because most of us have bought into the notion at some point in time and found it fallacious.

I would go for a group that says "we probably don't have the whole truth, but we are going to work at finding it out and doing our best to live according to our proclaimed beliefs in an open and transparent manner."

This Cult Awareness is a back door way of rejecting the idea that God is real and can intervene with His revelation.

That's what you think, but it's only an opinion, not a fact.

Branch co-ord chewed me out good in the middle of a hangover. He was litterally screaming at me at the top of his lungs when I was so hung over, every word was painful. He even threatened to kick me out and send me home. I started laughing like crazy. This got him even matter, and screaming louder. "What is so f****** funny?"

"The lease is in my name."

"Then put it in the R****'s name right now."

"She doesn't have the credit, and neither do the others."

"Then have it put in mine."

"No. And you can't make me."

"Yes, I can."

"Go for it."

He kept screaming for another 15 minutes, but I had already won. Besides, it was in June, so we were gone in another month and a half. Never saw him again.

Amazing. Apparently no clue about how the world works.

Most Community Colleges do have credits that transfer to a 4 year school. They have matriculation to State and other Universities--they are almost always set up in a transfer manner. Same with technical colleges. College 100 courses do not transfer, but they are not always needed--unless you have been out of school for awhile and forgot how to write, add or subtract---most Community Colleges will just let you test out of them.

Community Colleges are a great way to get back to school. Many people do their first two years there and transfer to a 4 year school. I would encourage anyone looking to get back to school to check out their local CC.

Ask about transfer. It is a great place for non-traditional students to get their feet wet again. It is less expensive and can actually be a better education than a 4 year school. Smaller classes.

I used to advise at a CC and tutor History to ESL and non-traditional students. I love the CC system. It attracts some great educators.

Just like Atlanta Bible College--Emporia probably would have had to change some core doctrines to become accredited as a theological institution. It may have been different in the 1970's.

I caught an ad on TV for ITT and it specifically said that "some credits may not transfer." That was what I was going by.

As long as the credits travel with you CC is a great deal.

That was with slave labor to boot, was it not?

Ham, I have a great deal of respect for you, but IMO you have disassociated from the reality of the time.

Calling it slave labor would indicate there was some level of unwillingness on the part of the laborers. People weren't unwilling, they were simply not paid. If my memory serves me right, those of us who were unwilling (or unable) to put in that kind of unpaid time were looked down upon. At least at my level of involvement people were "free" to choose to help or not. Not that there wasn't a "price" attached to not giving of time, talent, and funds, but the choice was there. I didn't suffer expulsion.

Why is it, the closer one looks at the huckster, the more almost EVERYTHING he *accomplished* was merely stolen?

He stole his classes and materials.. he one sidedly used resources to make his own SELF look good.. he even stole his "doctorate". It's almost like an identity theft..

Perhaps, but there were people sounding the alarm when I became involved in 1979. Most of us chose, for whatever reason, to ignore the alarm. I was unaware of the plagiarism, but I knew about the bogus doctorate early on. Apparently people did know about the plagiarism and chose to ignore it, rationalize it, or defend it. I think I remember someone saying that if he hadn't taken BG Leonard's stuff and done something with it, it would have remained largely unknown.

he ingratiated himself with the title, but he did not pay for it the "traditional" way, time, money, and HARD WORK.

There was a certain disdain for standard educational systems, which isn't all that unusual in fundamentalist Christian sects. The problem with standard education is that it tends to poke holes in fundamental belief systems. I personally have become far less fundamentalist since I expanded my horizons and allowed myself to explore other belief systems. Education outside of fundamentalism represents a clear and present danger to fundamentalist thinking. It would have been irrational for VPW to embrace standard education. TWI would have never grown and thrived under that model.

And the real shame of it all.. those who bought into his *program* got a certificate, just as "legitimate" in the real world as vic's.

The program was never intended to provide a real-world education. Maybe I'm just too practical, but it has been impossible for me to put time and money towards an education process where I could not transfer the credits to another institution. That alone made the Way College off limits in terms of "higher" education in my world, along with most community colleges and technical training schools. There was no secret that the Way College was unaccredited, but it was sold as not being particularly relevant. I didn't agree. Accreditation is a fairly rigorous process, but it also lends a level of accountability and respect for educational standards. Not wanting to have its processes scrutinized by outsiders or having to submit to outside standards was the sole reason for lack of accreditation.

Seeing him up on stage, in full "academic" dress.. handing out their "great reward".. is now a rather sickening thought..

Which ironically nobody getting that worthless piece of paper gave a thought to at the time. I would have to say that he did a very good job of educating people to fulfill his purpose.

But to claim that you know what His will is for your personal life, to claim that He wants you to be rich, to have that new car, to have a new church building, etc...that is what we cannot know, and that is what the Law of Believing stresses: material prosperity.

Material prosperity is just part of believing=receiving. Part of it is a disregard for natural laws while expecting supernatural results. For example: one family I know struggled with the idea of fastening the children into child restraints because to do so would not be "believing" for God's protection. Becoming pregnant/or not when you were "believing" was also part of the "law of believing". Smoking and "believing" for healthy lungs.

The prosperity thing entered with getting "needs and wants parallel".

You obviously haven't been to a big TWI get together or you would know that new church buildings don't get built, TWI people rarely have new cars, and I met no one who got rich being in TWI, but I saw more than a few walk away from jobs that provided prosperity to be in the corps.

Socks,

The whole idea of the sabbath was considered in another administration and Sunday was not considered a day of rest, or to be set aside. That was the day of getting busy for TWI. I didn't know about the 1/7 thing.

The disregard for the sabbath was the other reason I thought the emphasis on the tithe was strange. TWI was as "ala carte" in its approach as any organization.

I have never heard anyone outside of der vey who had a legitimate doctorate even refer to themselves as "doctor".

I have. They usually have size issues - if you get my drift.

I believe he thought he was already in possession of "the" truth whatever that might be at that particular moment. I was ok with most of what he wrote until he wrote the Order My Steps in Thy Word (I believe that was the title) book which was clearly an "unearthing" of "truth" designed to manipulate the followers. I bought it, read it, and was astounded at what he did with Romans.

His goal was to figure out how to get enough people to buy into the product he offered beyond the introductory offer, so he enticed with the notion that all this effort was to get to the truth - whatever it happened to be, but it wasn't too long before I saw that he believed he had all the answers and he really wasn't looking anymore. Not that I blame him. It can get rather draining after a while.

I had several "friend" families that stayed after we all left. They would not talk to me at all. Mark and avoid. Mark and avoid. I have talked to a couple of them once after they finally left, mostly to find out what it took for them to walk away. There wasn't any reason to talk after that.

I asked about the calling him "dr." thing and was told it was done "out of respect" not because he insisted. Ok. From that point forward he was VP.

I certainly agree with you on that point.

However, that line of thinking (the tithe being required) is simply not accurate in a Biblical sense.

Wierwille held himself out to be a world class authority on Biblical accuracy.

(" If it's not right, I'll tell you"---VPW)

Either he wasn't the the authority he thought he was or he used common misunderstanding of the subject to satisfy his own agenda. Neither option sheds a favorable light on his work.

Exactly right. It was on this issue that I started taking issue with his authority and his knowledge of the Bible. It was incredibly self serving.

What I don't get is how all the "workman of the Word" did not see that. There were a few occasions where we were talked to about our level of giving and I point blank said we would be happy to do it as soon as someone finds the chapter and verse in this administration that states the necessity. Until they could do that, we would stick to sharing our abundance - not sharing our need in hopes of receiving abundance.

Most churches believe tithing is a requirement of the body. Most churches believe that blessings are tied to tithing. VPW did not have the lock on that. Where he went over the top is the insistence that 10% was the bare minimum. My main beef with tithing to TWI was the lack of accountability and oversight and the notion that the organization was above the need to be accountable. When I saw how top leaders lived in comparison to the believers and the need for people to give thousands for the building of the auditorium on top of tithes, I could only come to the conclusion that TWI was not a good steward of the monies received, and gave accordingly.

Good for you Raf! I kept a copy of each. Got rid of all the excess. We didn't give them away - they were put in the trash as I didn't want to inflict them on anyone else. I haven't looked at them in years, but am keeping them to do a point by point rebuttal at some point in time when I have more time, but it's not a priority.

20 years. That's about the time we left, but we were still on a mailing list. Those were some disturbing letters we were receiving back then. I finally wrote and asked them to remove us from the mailing list.

And at 21 with NO money --No family--owing your home and tiny living to the MOG bully who held the gun to your head--well, it didn't really encourage running to the police--throw in a meek heart--a hope to serve God--and the fact that some of us checked our brains at the door of PFAL--well, you might understand why he didn't leave.

I am glad to hear that some of us had the sense they were born with, but some of us were young-stupid and had a pathetic upbringing which allowed us to be so manipulated.

Maybe that is why people say-"If I knew then what I know now" I sure think about that when I consider all I put up with.

Most of us were young with varying degrees of stupid due to circumstances beyond our control. I'm just very confused as to how anyone just sat there and thought there was anything remotely godly about the behavior. I'm honestly trying to understand this.

When I saw the motorcoach, Harley, plane, house at HQ, and then the parking lot full of beater cars at the ROA in 1982, I was shocked. Most of our TWI friends were law, dental, and medical students or fresh out of school. None of us drove bad cars or lived in poverty. We weren't rich and there was some debt associated with school. At the time, $75 per week of our money was going to HQ and I was being told we couldn't afford shoes for the kids, or trips to the doctor and dentist for well care. I told my husband that the practice of abundance needed to start at home and that all tithing needed to be suspended until our needs were taken care of at a level that coincided with our income. That's been the rule ever since. He can give as much as he wants, spend however he wants after the bills are paid, providing I never hear we can't afford something that's not unreasonable.

It was disheartening to see the poverty and embarrassing to be associated with it. It told me that something was not right.

If someone held a gun to my head in a threat I would be gone. End of story. They'd either have to use it on me or I'd walk out and to the police department. I don't handle threats too well, so they'd either have to back down or use it.

We've never owned guns. Why? Because I have a temper and problems with impulse control (although not as much now as when I was younger). When someone in our twig asked why we didn't own a gun, I told them the truth.

I'd have to say that as an adult I've not been prone to intimidation or manipulation.

Also inaccurate was the remark about tithing supposedly only counting in twi. VPW taught otherwise.

It was not directly taught that tithes only counted if given to TWI, but there was an assumption that money or energy directed elsewhere was a waste of money and time. I know, because we supported several ministries outside TWI and were told it just wasn't the same. I disagreed and gave according.

Do you mean like this stuff?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Vincent_Peale

Similar stuff.

And it comes full circle. One of the comments comes from a person who I go to church with and we play music together. Little does he know that I spent almost 10 years in TWI. I'm fond of saying that you are only 5 degrees away...

Well, for one thing, it's built around the bogus "law" of believing.

(As if that isn't enough.)

It focuses on utilizing OUR spiritual ability.

Is God on vacation or something?

I don't want to derail this too much, but the "law" of believing was a concept that was based on a similar concept, taken out of context, and taught much differently than the original. If you were raised around new-age thinking like I was, it was immediately recognizable as a modified new-age belief.

You sometimes talk aloud to yourself when you are alone

Wow, I thought that was only a problem when you started hearing responses. <_<

I'm bipolar with a raging, mean manic side that rears its head when I'm stressed. I use self-talk as a means of dealing with the impulsiveness that accompanies the manic side. I don't find myself disassociating in that situation. I see it more as a self-soothing thing as talking it through tends to calm me down.

Here is something from page 5 of The Renewed Mind class that somewhat approaches a definition of The Renewed mind.----1974

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you build your mind, understanding and heart, you build your believing---your strength or ability in the personal life. When your ability is built on The Word, it builds to the point of utilizing your spiritual ability which is all powerful.

According to the scientists, neurons form a chain in the brain to remember information. By conditioning our minds through the renewed mind process we can correct imperfect chains or patterns in the brain. Actors, actresses, successful sportsmen, and others have become adept in their fields by practicing their role or game before hand in their minds.

By continually feeding our minds on God's Word and practicing The Word in our minds, we become transformed (transfigured) by the renewing of our minds because our knowledge, thoughts, and habits have been conditioned. As this new material displaces the old, a new understanding is formed which in turn purifies the heart and builds additional strength to believe and get results.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for the argument that there was no thought conditioning taking place in TWI.

That's the explicit purpose of this entire class!

Waysider - I don't see a thing wrong with this other than when things veered off into areas where TWI had no business going. TWI took a good thing (looking at our thoughts and actions and improving them as needed) and turned it into something that benefited the organization at the expense of the individual.

What was I thinking??

You might have been thinking that these people had your best interest at heart; that they really love and cared enough to intervene in a "train wreck" of a life (not your's in particular, just lives in general). There's nothing wrong with that.