Tzaia

There are many reasons why many people did not act more boldly ... "it was a cult" is a decent summary.

I don't believe confidentiality is a valid one ... people went to an authority for help to stop the abuse ... even for a certified counselor, continued abuse would have to be stopped. For a corporate executive ... even more so ...

This may come up in another cult some day ... might as well get the story straight.

Actually I don't know the psychiatrist I guess .. I knew the psychologist ... also sixth corps, lived around HQ, last name started with a C ... so I figured that was who he meant ... pretty sure he was not a psychiatrist.

AT THE TIME, there was no legal requirement for reporting the abuse of underage children. Patient confidentiality in that regard in this day and age does not exist, as it did then. In fact, now you can be prosecuted for not reporting abuse. As others have pointed out, sexual abuse of adults by people of position is more of an ethical situation, whereas if people thought they would get kicked out or harassed by their employer, that would land under the sexual harassment EOE jurisdiction. At that time sexual harassment was very hard to prove; not like it is now.

If your thinking and judgment are clouded (I believe RD referred to it as "stinking thinking") and if being "crazy" is the worst thing you could be, then the tendency to minimize would be very high.

I was aware of the Scientology type stance on psychology and psychiatry, which I chose to ignore. My husband had been taking prescription drugs for OCD for years and had been called out by JAL because of it. I basically told people it was none of their business.

In retrospect, the stance on psychiatry and psychology is common in people who need services and want a way to deflect. Most seriously (and hopelessly) mentally ill people deny they have a problem.

Many, if not most cults, shun the use of social sciences because they are at odds with the values of the cult.

I get the distinct impression that DWBH and others were trying to "fix" the problem from within and thought they had a handle on it.

ewww changing the story now?

My state legislator is a businessman another one is a doctor, in fact of the two running for President who claim to presently be "lawmakers" one was a Navy Pilot, the other a Community Organizer----there's not a lawyer in the whole damn bunch of em

Clarification: Obama has a law degree and was a practicing lawyer - briefly.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/06/na.../na-obamalegal6

However, a law degree is not required to write laws, nor are all laws scrutinized for "legality" prior to becoming enacted - that's the purpose of the judicial branch.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/government/judg.html

Perhaps if WD had a clear understanding of the process, and not just an idealization of the process, he would stop the innocent until proven guilty rhetoric.

That's when they ignore you and immediately pick a fight with someone else, hopefully loud enough

to drown out what you just said.

Exactly. so if people don't take the bait to argue with them on their terms and instead show them the error in their thought, according to the teachings of VPW, they might go away, or at least think before posting.

I admit I haven't paid much attention to WD and any of the other VPW apologists. In fact, I can't even name them. However, it's very easy to turn their own logic against them using the very words and teachings of VPW himself. Are they going to argue with the logic employed by the very person they are defending? Kinda puts them in between a rock and a hard place.

Tzaia -- PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLL.

The preponderance of evidence shows that he/it (WD/WD) is NOT doing ANYthing other than seeking attention and throwing out bait to see if anyone will pay attention. The ONLY way to get it to stop is to NOT FEED the troll.

I understand what you are saying, but let me offer a bit of my perspective on ignoring trolls. Unless it can be done in such a way that it is unmistakable that the troll is being ignored, while being nothing but supportive to the victim, the troll will take it as acceptance of what he/she is saying. I don't think that's good.

Bringing up VPW's very own words regarding "establishment" through 2 or more witnesses was my way of pointing out the error in his logic and I believe strongly that anyone with half a brain (which has been established is more brain than a "Way" brain) who is reading these posts will be able to discern truth from mere posturing. On the other hand, logic and the academically accepted standards for argumentum, is something that a way-brained person just does not get.

Lifted I think I have made my standards pretty clear here "because I say so " is undocumentable others can say the same . One must have more than first hand testimony to consider in making a judgment. My personal beliefs are not the issue here ,nor is it a Wierwile issue either as some seem intent on claiming. I'd support anyone's rights to innocent until proven guilty be it OJ, VP, or Bozo the Clown. To claim guilt without the benefit of our justice system is wrong. We all can and do form opinions, our right as well, when we cross the line and declare guilt then it becomes more than opinion.

One must have more than first hand testimony? They've got to do better than that? That has to be one of the most illogical things I've ever heard. VPW will never be proven guilty by your standards because: a) he's dead and b) the chance there was a rape examination and DNA samples of semen fluid taken are probably non-existent due to the climate of the era, which includes looking the other way. There was more than enough of that kind of denial going on at the time, which is how it was able to happen.

To discount testimony from the numbers of victims is even beyond the standard of scripture itself, and is nothing less than ironic since VPW himself claimed that man's problem was falling below the standards of God or setting a standard higher than what God demanded in living a godly life. According to scripture, witness by 2 is sufficient to get a death sentence in a crime punishable by death. So I'm wondering who you think you are to demand more to establish guilt than what is even demanded by the scriptures? Who are you to go beyond even what the man you are defending himself claims is wrong (i.e. setting a standard higher or lower than the word)?

We're not conducting legal proceedings here, but if we were, the first hand accounts would serve as sufficient evidence of wrongdoing, due to the number of people who have come forward. A single witness could use additional evidence, such as identifiable physical characteristics, such as scars and moles which would only be seen if the man were naked to serve as an additional "witness." However, the point is moot because he is dead, and the dead can't have a criminal complaint filed against them, nor can one be prosecuted when one is dead. That does not make one any less guilty of what one does; it just doesn't allow for a legal remedy.

All of your legal posturing is just that - posturing.

Socks,

I totally get what you are saying. To a large extent TWI gave me a sense of grounding I had not experienced before and it was good, for the most part, until our first son was born. He was sick and we were blamed for his illness through negative believing and inadequate abundant sharing. It kinda went downhill from there and I had fewer good experiences until we finally left. We didn't know that the sex stuff was a top-down problem and kept ourselves isolated as possible from corp people. After TWI we went right into CES, and I found the open talk to be refreshing. Momentus was the final blow for our involvement there. We did continue to partner because I had worked as a volunteer and contractor for CES, and I thought that a lot of what was written in the early days was good. As CES continued to develop its theology, I started seeing more of the same arrogance that crippled TWI. Finally I quit giving my time and they claimed they couldn't afford me, so we parted ways. The partnership money stopped shortly thereafter. If what was going on at CES's home office was anything like what was going on at HQ and the various campuses, I don't understand how anyone in his or her right mind could stick around. The emotional and verbal abuse towards women was intolerable, and the "us against them" mentality kept getting more pronounced. I didn't feel that way. I was happily going to a Presbyterian church and feeling normal for probably the first time in my adult life.

oh good thanks !!!! tell me about it lol lol lol

Ok Ex, I'm going to get graphic here. What were these women thinking? VPW was stinky and gross. I mean at least LCM was somewhat easy on the eyes, if you go for the flaky blond types, but VP was just gross. Don't people have any standards, for cryin' out loud?

It is frustrating that we even have to go into this much detail about the legalities of libel when that was NEVER THE POINT. The point was whether the testimonies of people involved should be considered, in light of speaking up for the truth, against the false image of VPW that still prevails. WhiteDove kept bringing up the court of law stuff (even though several people pointed out that this is not a court of law), and now here we are discussing the law in detail. It looks like he succeeded in derailing the original point again.

Standard tactic is to use a logical fallacy when the facts don't fit the view.

I wasn't all that enamored with the guy when he was alive. I was never sure what all the fuss was about. He was a lecherous, vile, stinky, coarse, crass guy that had a huge sense of entitlement - and that's what I thought of him BEFORE I knew that he screwed around. The fact that he was a plagiarist with a diploma mill doctorate was also well known outside Way circles, but I chose to ignore those things. After all, the guy took Calvin's idea of irrevocable grace to a whole new level. That was something I could go along with as I wanted to continue doing what I was doing and still know that I was gonna sit in the kitchen.

I liked that, Raf, "morally outraged" vs. "disgruntled"

Tz

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

It's really not funny in any way, shape or form, but it just hit me the right way.

Ex,

It was meant to be funny. The thought of VPW naked makes me want to puke.

A little late to rejoin this part of the conversation, but indulge me:

The problem I have with the word "disgruntled" is that it's dismissive. The word implies lack of justification for any such feeling. It doesn't say or mean the same thing as "awakened." It doesn't mean "fed up." It doesn't mean "recognizing, after all these years, that you've been HAD by a predator."

I am not a "disgruntled former follower" of The Way. I am perfectly content. When I look back on that time in my life, I am grateful that I came away unscathed. And when I see what others went through, my emotions are similar to many of theirs.

Disgruntled? No, thank you. I prefer "morally outraged!"

I think JAL's response amounts to wondering why people don't simply let it go, which is easy to say if you are in his position. I think that many responsible people continuing to dance around this issue is what contributes to keeping the fires burning.

Why are any of these predators being protected? I have never understood that mentality.

Speaking of John's 1988 letter, he wrote this in it regarding VPW's "doctrine" on adult sexual relations:

This esoteric doctrine has permeated the leadership structure of The Way to the end that believers all over the country know about it.

Only some, John. Only some.

Even after all these years I still haven't ever heard a full rendering of how one entered the Spiritual Mile High Club.What did one have to do from a "leadership" standpoint to hold the appropriate position. VPW and women I understand. VPW wasn't gay, his interests in that category were for women so women were the logical partners. But the men, the males.

I'd still like to know more about what qualified someone, specifically the man, to be among the Chosen Few of the "leadership structure". That might shed some light on the whistle being blown. So to speak. John was one who was in high enough and deep enough, but I've never heard that full side of the story. Or for that matter why it didn't seem repulsive to him, being married and with a daughter of his own. I think it's an honest question, no gruntles involved at all.

This might actually be one of the last, lingering questions I have. For the most part everything that happened all those years ago was a loooong time ago. Life has gone on and life by God's grace and a little effort is moving along at a swell pace.

But there's a little part of my brain that hasn't gotten that part squared up. Maybe it never will. But a simple, straightforward answer would go a long way towards that. No condemnation forthcoming, trust me. Just curious.

Socks,

I was never able to get a straight answer from JAL about this, and I did ask. I also asked PL and how she could involve her kid in all of this (much of which came out through Momentus) and she couldn't tell me exactly how she wrapped her mind around it, but I knew she felt awful about what her child experienced.

I found that the good-looking single corp guys seemed to be groomed to help bring ladies to the class by whatever means deemed necessary. I had one girl who served on the one team I was a part of tell me that she was in what she thought was a relationship only to have the guy break off the relationship once she took the class. She felt used, but struggled with why she felt used. The guy told her that now that she was a sister in Christ that it was inappropriate for them to have that kind of relationship, and she was kinda buying it, until I told her it was just wrong. I confronted him about it and I was told that anything was acceptable to "bring people to Christ" including sex. I asked for a chapter and verse on that one and was told that obviously I was not spiritual enough to understand. He was trying to play some of that mind-sh1t on me and I told him I wasn't buying it. I also told him that it was really a sad thing that he was unable to bring a woman to Christ without being dishonest, and how that reflected poorly on him and TWI. He got pretty sh!tty with me, and I dished it right back, which he was absolutely not used to. He reminded me that he was in the corp and I told him I didn't care; he was wrong to do what he did. I told him that as his sister in Christ that I was obligated to reprove, correct, and instruct and I didn't give a crap whether he was corp or not. It got ugly.

I came home and told my husband who had been WOW and taken about every class available, including the advanced class. He knew nothing about the ok to use sex to bring people to Christ thing, so for a long time we assumed that it was not a normal thing - even though VPW once gave me the once-over that only a lecher can do. Once things broke open, it appeared to be something that was a part of the corp experience if you were deemed "spiritual" enough. I see it as how someone feels people out for whether they do drugs, are into swinging, or open to adultery. Someone who is up for those activities responds to the "hints" one gives. I knew that VPW was throwing out hints, but my husband didn't believe me until other people came forward with stories of his behavior. How did I know? Because I've done the same thing. As I told my husband, it takes one to know one. VPW was very good at being subtle in finding targets and he had a whole group of people who were dedicated to seeing that the MOGOTW got what he needed. He built it into the curriculum.

...Worth repeating.

Disgruntled?...Hmmm, in other words, even though Vic deceived people, abused people, took their money, sexually abused women, led some to suicide...AND taught wrong doctrine...it's YOUR fault because you're "disgruntled"...why be disgruntled when you can once again leap through the magic portal, back into "wayworld"...where the snow falls plentifully on the gas pumps and "men of gawd" once again walk the earth...and of course, gawd's servant...JALVIS will humbly lead the way!

JAL never left TWI of his own volition - he was fired, and no one should ever forget that. He got disgruntled enough after being fired that he wrote at great length about what was wrong with what LCM and CG were doing, but I can assure you that he never felt that way about VPW and TWI. I believe his goal with CES was a new and improved TWI modeled after all that was good and true within TWI. I believe that because that's what he's said to me and I believe the letter makes the same point. He has never strayed far from that belief as witnessed in one of his early letters which said, "Rest assured that there is life after The Way. Although many of us have been victims of wrong doctrines and practices to varying degrees, I view my involvement as a steppingstone to greater scriptural truth. I can no longer grow spiritually within The Way’s tightening confines."

For those who wonder why he hasn't been going after fresh meat - he has. It's just not been successful. The internet is a terrible thing in terms of moving the word. Just how many of you would have bitten if you had the resources available then that you have now?

I am honored to be among what he refers to as the disgruntled.

"I will elaborate upon why that is true from a doctrinal standpoint, but when else in the history of the Christian Church has there ever been such a cadre of thousands of young, energetic, enthused, biblically knowledgeable, logistically equipped, organizationally backed, diverse, multi-lingual, mobile, available, and committed-to-“It-is-written” men and women with leadership qualities who were willing to go anywhere and spread the Word?"

For Readability...this sentence is completely unintelligble. The whole letter calculates this way which is why it seems like rambling.

Flesch Reading Ease --- 0.0

Flesch-Kinkaid Grade Level --- 30.4

Hey Rejoice, I'm running this through StyleWriter and it got a 158 (dreadful) in style index and a 63 (unreadable) in the average sentence length because it's 63 words.

upon = on

from a doctrinal standpoint = often wordy

enthused = prefer enthusiastic and recast the sentence

multi-lingual = usually written as one word.

So it is to be if it is written on these threads. It is the gospel truth?

no accountability needed, no checks no balances. nothing but words on the www, grease spot friends say it is true so if you do not believe it you must lack compassion.

quite a leap from your stance towards STF and CES when you write in that thread about how foolish their decision making skills were tanzia.

I guess we get to pick and chose who to judge and believe at the end of the day hmm.

That's not what I said. I would let anyone have their say - and correct them when I believe their reasoning is flawed. To kick them off just fuels that sense of self-righteousness.

The compassion is because many have been in the same place. Most of us have turned a deaf ear to the reality of what TWI is really all about.

CES - every last one of those guys would have still been at TWI if they hadn't gotten the boot.

Yeah right. We're convinced you've got the skinny and the truth about VPW - and everyone and everything that has ever been associated with TWI.

Don't be offended that we just can't come to the same conclusions you have - that is, that you've got everything competely in balance regarding VPW, TWI, etc., when we see your vindictive fingers still stuck upon the scales of justice.

You are presenting an irrational argument. This is not about vindictiveness. What we are talking about here is about perceptions. What some of the people here are sharing is not your reality. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Some people became involved with TWI to receive some sort of affirmation and protection. They believe TWI fell short in those areas and they feel betrayed. Maybe their expectations were unrealistic, but TWI did "sell" a sort of reality that seemed like a haven to some.

I feel sick about what some of these women have experienced. I know several parents who have to live with what their children were exposed to under their watch at the various TWI campuses. I can't even imagine.

I've got to wonder if those of you who think it's no big deal what these women went through are people who also willingly handed your wives and daughters over to be comfort to the leaders. Maybe the way you wrap your brain around your part in this is to minimalize the experience of others. I don't know, but my experience is that people who lack compassion for others have their own issues.

I was just remembering...

There's a thread in the CES forum about JS. When it was found out that his son was injured in Iraq someone asked for a moratorium on posting. That happened - no questions asked. Meanwhile, a prayer thread was started.

That's what I mean about being respectful. There are no rules in place for that sort of thing and it would be impossible to write rules for every single thing that should be common sense to an adult with compassion.

The reason for letting them stay on here is compassion; plain and simple compassion. How many stood to the side and let us have our say when they told us outright that we were a part of a cult and we weren't buying it? How many times did we shut down a conversation when it wasn't going our way? I did it on more than one occasion. I know my family waited for me to wake up and get a clue. Maybe the ones who are sticking it out and defending TWI are the ones who have disrespected their families and friends to the point where they aren't waiting around. Perhaps TWI is all they have and they will defend it beyond the point of reason, because being "right" is more important than relationships. Maybe they are abusers and simply like abusing. Think about it. What kind of person would denigrate another person's telling of their own story? Someone who can only make it in a system such as TWI, which is all about abuse. Of course that kind of person will use "reasoning" as a method of belittling someone else's experience. For those who defend TWI and ask how these women fell prey, it's because they really don't get it. It's hard to be sympathetic towards people like that, but isn't that what we're supposed to do? I genuinely feel sorry for people who lack compassion. I genuinely feel sorry for people who get their kicks out of being buttheads. I genuinely feel sorry for people who think that it's somehow "Christian" to behave like an a$$ho1e towards others because they aren't involved in their organization, or worse yet, treat people who they claimed to love as people to be avoided.

In the internet world, we call people who disrupt threads trolls . Don't feed the trolls. Better yet, use my troll spray:

I have been reading everyone's response to my class. I am not saying that this class is THE ONLY TRUTH, but this class is a kick start to knowing the Bible, especially for those who have never studied the Bible. God is so good and I don't care if 4 were on the cross with Jesus or if Adam and Eve had a belly button or not et. Those are personal beliefs, I don't think will get you in or out of Heaven. Have none of you that oppose this class ever had anything good happen to them after they took this class, has not some of this knowledge helped them in any way. I never agreed with a lot of actions that I saw 30 years ago that is one reason why I never stayed in, BUT the scriptures that I learned in the PFAL class always stuck with me. And I want to give others the opportunity to hear what I did. There has to be a lot of hurt and I pray God will give each one the peace to get over it. ( I know I am going to get slammed now) I won't charge for this class and maybe I can help someone else get a new lease on life. I have gotten alot of good response to this class which made me smile. Agape Love Everyone Margaux

I would like to agree with you, but I can't. The class, as it is presented, it designed not to be a study, but more of an indoctrination. Study involves reflection. For me, study involves discussion. With the format offered in 3 hour chunks with no discussion of points, it loses the study aspect, at least for me.

It's been a long time since I've taken "the class," but one of the things I believe it does at the outset is set a tone for how other Christians are to be viewed - namely as stupid for believing things that are not the "obvious truth." Like most other Bible "studies," it is designed to lead you to a conclusion - one of those conclusions is that you are stupid to trust anyone outside of the organization because others have deceived you, perhaps unknowingly, but nevertheless deceived. I've sat through the class twice; once before reading the books, and then after as a team member. The second time I was bored out of my mind and found the continuous repetition mind-numbing. I was also more aware of the attempt to tap into people's emotions the second time.

The other thing the class does is set a person up to feel "special" for having all this "information" that is not shared throughout the Christian community.

I will tell you one thing that the PFAL class did for me - that was open me up to critical study of scripture, but I think that was an inadvertent side effect. I took the admonition to "don't take my word for it" as a kind of challenge. I didn't. Once through the class I read all the books and then started a critical review of the books compared to scripture and came away with my own conclusions, which didn't go over too well in my twig. I do believe the class will trigger critical thinking for certain types of people, but the typical PFAL grad has a huge need to stand out in some way and be accepted - something that was probably missing in a former life. Being told they are "called out" and "special" for having taken the class does something to these people, even as they are being abused by the system that tells them they are so special. I also think that it attracts more than its fair share of people with personality disorders, because it fills a need.

I am reminded of Jesus' first great commandment, which is to love one another. I truly believe that instead of teaching the great truth - that we are to love one another - that the class teaches us to be wary of others and it leads to qualifying that statement, when I see no qualification. Furthermore, PFAL drills down the definition of "born again" to what is assumed is a very broad spectrum, but it ends up being just as, if not more restrictive, than a typical flaming trinitarian's view of what constitutes being "born again" or a believer.

I believe that "knowing" whether believing equals receiving, it was 3 or 5 crucified, how many times Peter denied Jesus, or whether one speaks in tongues is the true sign of receiving the spirit is irrelevant to Jesus' basic message. That message gets buried in all the the details of "knowing that you know that you know" and becomes lost. Is that really what you want for these people?

As I read her story, I thought about a movie I watched not too long ago, The Invasion of the Body Snatchers. In this classic Sci-Fi movie, pods from outer space take over the lives of people – but they are only able to do this when the person falls asleep. The person looks like you on the outside – but it’s no longer you on the inside. I think of how much of the TWI mindset is geared toward lulling to sleep our critical and creative thinking processes…we suppress our real personalities, forget our dreams, ignore feelings, and squelch personal preferences.

All the while being told that you have never been more awake.

Support. That's been my problem ever since I left, my support system has alway been almost non-existence since leaving TWI. My family didn't like me being part of the way, and mostly disown me for getting evolve back in the 80s. The few people I still keep in contact with that was "in", don't really want to talk about those days and the impact it had personally.

Does anyone know of any support system out their that might help?

Family dynamics is probably a big part of the reason why you got involved initially. Rather than treat you as the Prodigal Son, they are continuing to harbor ill will towards you. That's ok. You probably turned your back on them in a big way. For years I considered my family to be poor saps because they lacked my enlightened viewpoint. Don't think they don't pick up on that. Give them time.

My suggestion is to get involved in some sort of recovery ministry like the Vineyard and don't get so caught up in having to be with people who are "like minded," or who have necessarily shared your experience. For many, involvement in a cult was simply a coping mechanism like drinking and drugs. Take a step back, accept it for what it is, and forgive yourself.

Read up on developing critical thinking and logic skills - not to beat others up, but to become objective about your thought processes.

Yeah, I would have to say some of my most embarrassing moments were when I blindly put faith in someone or vouched for them simply because they were also members of twi. Like loaning some WOWs a set of furniture and kitchen items (dishes, glasses, etc) that I wasn't needing at the moment. At the end of the year when I went back to get my stuff, most of it had vanished. When I asked where it went they just sort of flustered about and gave me some mumbo jumbo about breakage. Yeah, cuz plastic dinnerware is SO fragile... :blink:

I had to laugh. More than five (5) years after someone stored furniture and household crap at MY expense as they went about their WOW business and didn't bother to come back, they came back asking for their furniture, which was junk to begin with and I couldn't even give it away, nor could I afford to continue hauling it around. They were mighty bent out of shape that I said I threw it away. Or the guy who came looking for his freakin' can opener - after 9 years. I looked him in the eye and said, "Go buy one."

I found my fellow TWIers to be the most disrespectful, antagonistic bunch of people in the free world, unless you were a member of the clergy or in a leadership position.

JS is not arrogant in a pompous or in-your-face sort of way. He does believe with all his heart that he has a better understanding of scripture than any person on the planet. To drive that point home, his ongoing project is a rewrite of the Bible. I find that amazingly arrogant, but that's just me. His arrogance manifests itself in other ways.

Several years ago, a finance committee was formed to study CES's financial processes and help CES conform better to 501© criteria. More than 18 months after the committee brought its findings to the board, not one suggestion had been implemented. Several people were perturbed about this, including JS's own sister - a member of the committee. JS spoke to me about how sad it was that all these people had "turned" on them. In order to gain a better understanding of the whole thing, I asked for a list of the proposed changes. None of the recommendations seemed particularly difficult. So my question was why hadn't the recommendations been implemented? The answer was that "we haven't gotten around to it, yet." I told him that was why the committee had "turned." Busy people do not like having their time wasted and that's exactly what the board did. He seemed oblivious to the fact that CES had wasted all of these people's time. I believe disrespecting other people's time is a sign of arrogance.

He has (had) this belief that certain people's role in life is to meet his every need so that he can be free to do God's work. When he articulated this notion to me, I just looked at him with utter amazement. I told him that as a woman, I felt he should reexamine that belief. To me, that is a very arrogant belief.

Since my "release" as a consultant, JS has not contacted me once. Not once. Years of intimate conversations, me going out of my way for him on numerous occasions, and not one word from him. I think dismissing someone from your life after that person has served a purpose and is no longer needed is arrogant (among other things).

This is just me and my opinion based on my experience. YMMV.

Misdirected in what way?

These guys live (what I believe to be) a pretty secluded life. This does not allow for exposure to different ideas. JS used to have exposure to different people, but since moving to Bloomington, he and the whole bunch simply don't have exposure to different people except peripherally. You remember the "like minded" thing, well I think it's the guiding force in his life, as with the rest of them.

I have only met the man a few times. I have heard quite a few of his teachings from CES. I feel that I have learned quite a bit from him. It would be difficult for me to believe he is a man who doesn't care about God. And from those I have spoken to who know/knew him never have really anything bad they can say about him. What about anybody else here? Has anybody met him and to what of his character?

I've never met this John Lynn. But it seems from personal testimonies that he is not a very well-liked man.

I have thought about supporting CES at times because of what I have heard John Schoenheit share and express. But I also know that you can stand on stage and sound real holy and yet be a real jerk "off camera". I just don't know him well enough. Can anybody shed some light on this?

Thanks,

OneWhoIsFree

All of them are very sincere. John S is a good person. He's not evil. I do think he's misdirected.

I have a confession to make. I have been attending school for the past nearly 3 years and late last year I had a major epiphany. I am dealing with a major lack of faith in a risen lord right now. First of all, I went to Egypt last fall and spent most of my time there with Islamic guides. That was a real lesson in just learning how to be. I plan to go to the Middle East many more times, but only in a sociological context like I did the last time. It's very enlightening. Then I took a couple of humanities classes that covered early religions. I walked away with the gut feeling that Christianity isn't all that remarkable from a religious standpoint. Nothing has happened since then to change my mind. The more I try to reinsert myself into Christianity through reasoning and education, the harder it is to accept. Therefore, I can honestly say I'm doing nothing to move the "word" and find myself becoming more and more repelled by those who think they have all the right answers.

Points:

1. We have a Bible based on manuscripts with no originals to use for comparison's sake. If you don't have a problem with that, then how can anyone possibly have a problem with the Book of Mormon, or the Qur'an, or any other "text" that is supposedly divinely inspired that has no original manuscripts?

2. We have a savior that is risen, and a few more people who apparently were raised (not sure to new bodies and even then it's glossed over), yet no one outside the Christian community seems to know about it - even Josephus. You would think someone besides early Christian writers would find it worthy of mention. The only place you can find the evidence is in the Bible (see point #1).

3. I think it's kind of strange that he's ascended into heaven and is letting us have at it. Why? There is absolutely no reason to have this time gap where he's in heaven and we're down here trying to sort it all out with the help of the holy spirit, who could be an essence or a "person," depending on your point of view. But it's remarkably convenient.

4. I am very troubled by Paul's subsequent treatment and handling of women, particularly since it is very much at odds with how Jesus viewed and treated women. Even then, I found myself telling my husband that the submission of women to men seems just a little too convenient for my taste (yeah, I'm a troublemaker).

The more I look into it, the less convinced I am that this religion is significantly different than any other religion, and I find myself more and more put off by the claims of superiority and the notion that it is the final answer, when so much of it is still up in the air.

Christians boast about how rapidly Christianity grew. It's growth is nothing compared to the growth of early Islam. Ironically, Islam's early growth was largely due to the amassing and assimilation of knowledge at a time when Christianity was putting a real damper on the notion of having an educated and enlightened population. Moreover, Islam is firmly entrenched in an area where Christianity began. Am I the only one that finds that remarkable?

What I find is that groups such as TWI and STF and even most long-time organized groups rely on that sense of community, tradition, with a measure of guilt thrown in to hold people. The claim of having the truth is just that - a claim that could be based on a false premise.

Personally, I've been putting a bit of time into learning about the Law of Attraction (you are and attract what you think, or as a man thinks, so is he) and I'm not all that convinced that it's a load of rubbish. Although I do think the way TWI taught it was a load of rubbish.