Tzaia

Yesterday I had a "private" message waiting for me from some website, which when I finally was able to figure out where it was actually coming from (the private message area had not been set up to actually use), ended up being from someone who had just joined Truth or Tradition and apparently sent a private 419 (Nigerian-style) spam to me and probably everyone else. I promptly deactivated my membership which might have been an administrative level membership since I did originally build the site <_< but not that part of it.

I haven't visited that site in over 2 years, but what I did find interesting is that registered membership is not much more than it was in early 2005. There are no more sponsored search keywords for it or Biblical Unitarian (who also has had no appreciable increase in registered users). That tells me money is tight.

Four members - what a concept. I didn't realize there were 6 before. It is customary to have an uneven number.

MG had to resign unless the bylaws were amended. He knew TR would be gone.

But the lawsuit against Blackburn shows it is still 'Pending'? Right? :unsure:

I wonder if they just didn't have enough evidence to keep pursuing the one against Gallagher. If he's still pursuing Jeff, I kind of doubt he had a change of heart.. Very sad...

"But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law against another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?"

I don't know the particulars. I never read the complaint. I would imagine that JB put the information into CC's hands and that's where he got nailed. There was really no other way for her to get that information, unless it was MJ. What you people are probably not aware of is that both JB and MJ went to work for the company that managed the office computers. Those guys had full access to the systems after they left. They would have had full access to the email system, to the servers, and to all of the backups.

When MG told me he kept the IT company - knowing full well that JB and MJ was working for it- that's when I knew he was a fool and had no idea what he was up against.

I can understand how Dan and Mark can clash, they are very much alike both strong leader type men who want to help people.

They never really clashed. Mark generally deferred to Dan. It was Dan's idea to groom JB for the head of the business side of the home office, which I greatly disagreed with because of JB's lack of soft skills. He really doesn't work well with women. He does best in a command and control environment.

My impression from the writing on grease spot is Karen Ann has made people upset... and is another person in this mix, John Lynn loves them all, I believe Mark and Karen thought life was going to be pretty much all set when they sold the window business and joined the ranks long before DA, come on that had to hurt when trouble began.

That's not my take. I believe KAG has been made a major villain this when every last one of them, including EL has some fault in this. First of all, JAL's parents did NOT want him to marry her because of her track record with men and her relationship with the G's as they held the G's personally responsible for John's stepping down. The marriage got off to a really bad start because of that. My understanding is that EL has been able to make peace with at least part of the family, but it took her aligning herself against the G's and against JAL for that to happen. She may have become disillusioned against the G's as I did when MG failed to stand with me when it came to JB's verbal abuse towards me. I don't know. I do know that her time in the front office did not last long. No one went into great detail about what was causing the rift between EL and JAL. He said the problems started about 4 months into the marriage.

Honestly I like MG, but I lost respect for him for allowing that abuse to take place. JB did not like EL working in the home office and he did just about everything he possibly could to make her dislike the job, including declaring she was possessed. EL was told from the very beginning that JAL's 'gift' was teaching and that involved a lot of travel. You could tell that she was smiling through clenched teeth about the prospect of him traveling. He also spends enormous amounts of time on the phone and I think she had a problem with that, too. My understanding is that she got pretty doggoned mad and JAL, being the master of confrontation left her feeling unheard and frustrated.

KAG is a bit wacky and she was more involved in the day-to-day of the home office than the rest of the wives. She probably got the perception that it was OK to be involved since she was given office space. It's kind of amazing how being given an office, desk, phone, and computer will make you think you ought to be doing something. It's not like she had any computer skills, or could package items, or do mailings. Her "job" was to offer opinions, which is what she did. It wasn't until 2004 that it was deemed permissible to allow someone else to use that space and that someone was me, when I moved the server upstairs, and then DG.

She was included in many of the decisions because of her being a "prophetess" and that was welcomed input. The only person there that resented her "intrusion" was JB.

I get it i pray for them to resolve their differences.

It sounds like at least Dan and Mark have come to some sort of an agreement. MG's beef with DG was his unwillingness/inability to deal with JB. JB's antics had hit really close to home.

the thing is after the PP stuff on the net and the manner in which he was removed even if Mark can finish his education where would he apply? and esp if Karen is as serious as the reports here say about her being a chief prophet and all. i mean it isnt like you walk into a job in a church and say hey I am a minister of sorts with a weird background ok? that is difficult enough then a wife that claims to have weirdo visions about evil from God and yeah by the way i was in a cult and fired from its off shoot..

He indicated to me that he was going to become far more involved in KAG's work. She's a talented painter who could use a manager. He is an artist as well. I think he should finish his degree at Earlham - Quakers are pretty lenient theologically. He is a pastor and it would be a shame for him to not be a pastor.

how ugly guys god loves all of us more than this stuff please seek peace with one another .

He sure does, which is the reason why I walked away with no regrets about my behavior, and no intention of further involvement. We had 'partnered' with CES since the beginning, but truthfully the drama gets to be a bit much. I experienced tremendous relief once I was no longer around them. In fact, I had NO idea that any of this was going on until MG called me the day before the annual meeting last year asking for my assistance in the form of a letter on his behalf - as if that would make a difference. I was pretty blunt in telling him it was more than what he was ever willing to do for me, but I did it, even though that was the first time he made any effort to talk to me since I was "let go."

I can say that doctrine doesn't matter to me nearly as much as the 'loving one another' aspect of fellowship. I see a HUGE disconnect between what is taught at CES and what is lived. I say let them implode on one another.

It appears the lawsuit against Dan Gallagher has been withdrawn.

About Greg Pharis...I heard the name, but honestly I put my mind somewhere else when PP was spoken. (Eyes glazed over, etc.) That being said, I was unaware how much it was being used to make decisions (or I chose to ignore it because of the idiocy of making decisions based on other people's prophecy)

Is this the bottom line of the lawsuit, the future marketability of MG? I dunno?

Are we talking about EL as the woman who did the dirty work and about her going public with that letter not being a smart move? Do you think it was blown out of proportion or the catalyst that made all those fragile ces relationships fail?

No, EL did not do the dirty work. EL's stuff was handed off to CC who posted them here.

People get the idea they know these people when they live a day's drive away. Not so. Even I was unaware of how dysfunctional it was until I started spending a day a week there. It didn't take a long time to see the light.

What I wonder is, what did "they" do to him? He believed the same bible, at least once..

just a "passionate for the truth" as j.l., j.s. and gang ever was..

did they push him over the edge?

From what I was told, JB became verbally abusive towards at least one of MG kid's who was working in the office at the time. I don't know if the kid was on the payroll or there as a volunteer, but it was JB's habit to harass those he did not like (usually women) until they left. JB did not like KAG walking in and having any sort of say in anything in the office, so it was only a matter of time with her. All the other wives stayed away for the most part.

Now I'm just speculating here, but I can imagine that it came down kind of like this: This round of verbal abuse became personal and Mark went way out of his comfort zone to address the issue. It's been happening for years to every other female who's ever worked there, including EL, but this time it's family. JB is given a warning and he's fine for a week and then he does it again and MG lets him go. JB gets DG on 'his' side and MG tells him to leave as well (these events happened). That makes MG the opposition. The typical CES response (at least at first) is to hone in on a weakness in the 'opposition'. In this case, it's KAG because, IMO, she's been losing ground in her ability to function (I would NOT be surprised if she's in the early stages of Alzheimer's) and MG has been dealing with that. This would be along the lines of "MG's just not thinking straight on this one due to 'home problems'", which others have already alluded to. Rather than JB owning up to his part in the situation, he gets DG involved, which isn't all that hard because of his view towards women. They both gang up on MG, bringing JAL into it because JAL can be easily convinced to do just about anything by these guys, including divorcing his wife (he was very conflicted about it, but that didn't stop him). The Thiesen's are up in Michigan and don't have a clue concerning the dysfunction of the office as everyone is on their best behavior when they do show up. MG is far less persuasive than DG, so the Thiesan's side with JB and DG and that finishes MG because JWS just wants to get along with the majority.

JB gets CC involved through EL and gets the ammunition out here to discredit MG via KAG. I still don't know why that was necessary as every last one of them was involved in this PP thing about EL (the evidence was on the server and I had unlimited access to the server), and numerous others, including me. But it's strange how they can play like they had no major part in it when they did. I'm guessing THAT's what ....ed MG off. I am aware that a letter from MG went to people on the mailing list, but he didn't put it out on a website for all to see and he doesn't appreciate things being out there for just anyone to pick up on - and I don't blame him. All you have to do is do a google search on his name and BAM! it's right up there in the top 10. It doesn't make him particularly marketable when it comes to getting a job, so, they have defamed him. What's more is that they got someone else to do their dirty work and her name is embedded in the documents. Not a smart move on her part.

The truth of the matter is if you're not there, you have no idea who to trust or believe. I only believe what I personally experienced. While this PP thing is bulls---, it is also serving to deflect the real issues.

I misunderstood you.

Please accept my apology.

Accepted!

Sounds like a mirror image of how TWI reacted to POP, concealing the problem, and trying to lockdown any communication among the people about it.

That's probably the case, or at the very least waiting until a good spin can be put on it.

Very Vp-ish in flying by the seat of the pants, very autocratic, and also in soliciting feedback, but not really intending to do anything about it.

I don't know if they intended to, but what I saw was the formation of all these committees that spent a lot of time discussing things, but ultimately not having any true input.

A mirror image of administration a la TWI, has nothing to do with God and Christ, or His people, has a lot to do with administering a corporation.

It IS a corporation, a legal entity that has to satisfy certain legal requirements. There was a LOT of ignoring those things and they need a 'business' side to deal with that. The problem arises when trying to be pastoral in the process. My opinion was that the board had no business involving themselves in the day to day stuff and to separate the operations of the board and officers from the running of the ministry.

Didn't VPW say you can't go any further than what you know?

I've posted-and post-on boards with LOTS of Trinitarians who are loving.

Except when there's certain doctrinal discussions, things tend to go very smoothly-

and I've yet to see any board where SOMETHING wasn't controversial.

I didn't say trinitarians can't be loving. What I said was that discussions concerning the trinity are <sarcastically> great examples of Christian love.

I am probably one of the few people here who coexists quite peacefully in a trinitarian church and people actually know that I'm not a trinitarian. It took a long time to figure out how to be honest without being combative when explaining myself and my beliefs. First of all, I'm not interested in correcting their beliefs anymore than I'm interested in having mine corrected. What I aim for is respect and the ability to honestly explore a difficult doctrine. If they have stated (and my church has) that everything is open for discussion, then I hold them to that statement. I've had wonderful discussions with our educational pastor, who has a PhD in New Testament Studies from Princeton, that have given both of us much to think about. He gave a sermon that I told him was pretty much straight out of a Mormon handbook, in the context of helping him to understand that beliefs aren't all that divergent, depending upon how they are framed. My focus is on what we can agree on and how we can, as the body, convey the 2 top commandments to the world at large.

See "Law of Attraction".

Actually, ces HAD a messageboard, but they SHUT IT DOWN.

It was upon request of ces-people that this subforum's info arrived.

So, if ces people go anywhere to have OPEN COMMUNICATION, it seems the GSC is the only game in town!

First of all, I think the notion of a sub-forum on an Ex Way site is - well - ironic, given that they wanted to move away from TWI. But the other thing is that the original message board was a "frontpage" thing and was gawd-awful. It was run by John M(can't remember his last name) and he really had better things to do than police a message board. They weren't comfortable giving it over to volunteers, so it was shut down. In their defense, they're going to attract a different audience and not necessarily be able to control content, much less emotions. If you want great examples of "Christian love" <_< go to a board that discusses the validity of the trinity.

When I set up the BU and TorT sites, they both contained forum capabilities. It's built into the structure. But again, it is a matter of control.

Here are the court cases. It costs $25 to pull them down.

http://tinyurl.com/2a8loc

Tzaia,

They all sound obtusely arrogant and pridefull, with possibly the exception of Dan G, and all enamored with their own self righteousness. It surprises me it is so 'in your face'.

I guess I've forgotten how bad the arrogance of of TWI was.

Dan just knows how to keep his arrogance under wraps. I'm sorry, but I found him to be the least transparent of the bunch, but he's masterful at making you think he's transparent.

How is it that there's such silence and a lack of current CES participants posting here, do you stay in touch with anyone in Ces? Are they all ignorant to what's going on or are they circling the wagons and not commenting to others about their leadership and practices? I don't get it.

Many who are 'active' members of CES work in the home office or attends their fellowships here locally (which I haven't since Momentus). STF was in the process of instituting a strict internet policy the last time I was there and I would imagine that pretty much everyone has been told to stay away from public forums. Other than this last thing, there was never any reason to engage people here except to get them to read TorT and BU and hook up with STF.

- My experience tells me they solicit input and feedback from people, but rarely act on it.

- I have to believe that I'm not the only person who feels that my time and input was a waste of time.

- There have been comments here about a plan.

- There was no plan before Dan arrived in 2004. Absolutely everything was seat of the pants.

I have no desire or need to talk to anyone there. I gave 10 years of my time and the way I was treated was uncalled for. Mark has called me a couple of times and we've talked briefly. He wanted me to write a letter, which I did, stating my experience working there. I experienced one person's attempt to bully me. The rest of them used PP as a battering ram against individuals, including me. I didn't have any use for PP then, and I haven't changed my mind. I had no idea what was going on with JAL and his wife other than they were divorced and that trouble had started very early in the marriage. The whole thing was not very healthy. I was of the opinion that all of them meddled in each other's personal lives way too much and not above using confidential information as a weapon to hurt and discredit.

Will they have an epiphany? No. The need to be special and set apart is so ingrained in all of them that, IMO, it is the supreme goal.

I'm a big believer in what goes around comes around and I am not the least bit surprised about these developments. I 'prophesied' to MG about them when I left in early 2005.

As I'm approaching the end of year 2 of my disengagement from the organization, I see many of the same behaviors and attitudes that I experienced when I was involved with TWI. It took me nearly 20 years to get off my high horse and see there is some benefit to 'orthodox' religion (one being no need to emphasize their 'rightness') and while I will probably never fully embrace some orthodox beliefs, I certainly don't disdain orthodox Christians like I did during my involvement with TWI and STF.

I was under the impression that JAL and JS were being sued too or maybe the entity of CES?

No. I might spring for the suits, but I'm going to ask MG first.

Nice to see you again Tzaia... glad you made it back safely!

As you can see, we've made progress... but not really...

I love the Middle East. This was my first trip to Egypt and my third to Israel.

'We' aren't going to make any real progress when it comes to this issue. My understanding from my last conversation with MG was that they were undergoing mediation. Mediation is a fancy word for coming to an agreement no one is really happy with.

I'm not sure what's involved with the lawsuit. I guess I could ask MG to email me a copy of the suit as they become public record once they are filed. Of course anyone is welcome to pick them up at doxpop.com for the bargain price of $25

I can't get the exact links to post, but you can do a search by state.

It is interesting to note that only DG and JB are named in the suits.

Props to Dan. He seems to be the only one who has really taken this to heart and has an earnest desire to set things straight publicly and recognizes their “moral and spiritual responsibility” to do so.

It's easy to say that when you 'can't'.

"PROPHECY: UNDERSTANDING AND UTILIZING THE MANIFESTATION OF PROPHECY". he freely admitted that "mistakes have been made" in the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of their doctrine, and the practice of personal prophecy by some at the BOD level of STF. he feels the mistakes in practice were the result of a normal learining curve in the proper use of this manifestation, among both the leadership of STF, and the general membership. he likened it to the process of normal human growth and development in areas like learning to walk, talk, read, spell, etc., mistakes are part of the normal growth and learning process, and, though painful at times, are usually "unavoidable" when learning anything "new"........he did not come across as flippant to me, about mistakes made, nor did he seek to avoid discussion of specific mistakes, or necessary corrections.

I can guarantee you that no one was saying at the time something along the lines that "wow, all of us are really new at this and perhaps we'd better take it easy until we get better at it." No one felt there was a learning curve when it was used to make decisions.

I'm sorry, but that's an unbelievable amount of backpedaling.

They TRULY believed this gave them a 'one up' on other Christian organizations.

Tzaia says,

This is likely Mark Graeser's side and story. However, did you actually read the bylaws to verify whether this is true or not true? Why would CES take a vote at all if this is true? And my understanding is that CES removed him as president of the board and not entirely from the board. There really has to be accountability for any church or corporation and their officers.

In Indiana NPO's Board and Officers are distinct entities. You can have a board and officers where only the president need be a board member. There is some accountability, but when the only real shareholders are the board members, it's hard.

Does anyone have a copy of the actual CES corporate bylaws that they can post here?

No, but I'm sure they would offer them

Sorry I'm so late responding. This has been my first visit back since I got back from a trip to the Middle East.

...

Tzaia..........your saying ...”This was strictly a CES problem and it needed to stay there.”...... is example of the problem...........

it’s the ‘can’t talk’ rule.

People who know how cults work write things like:

.........“This spirit of control also prohibits anyone from discussing doubts on doctrine or the set of rules their particular church inflicts upon them. David Johnson, in his book, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, says, ‘The most powerful of all unspoken rules in the abusive system is ... the "can't talk" rule...If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem. In some way you must be silenced or eliminated. Those who do speak out are most often told, `We didn't have all these problems until you started shooting your mouth off. Everything was fine before you started stirring things up.'" Or “Quit causing division........you need to learn to forgive........love........”

and

...........”The dysfunctional system no doubt had a ‘don’t talk’ rule by practice—but probably spiritualized and cloaked in scripture as well. The ‘don’t talk’ rule serves to hide a myriad of the leaders’ sins.”

Your saying “The truth is that they ALL have used and abused personal prophecy to establish the 'rightness' of their actions when it has suited them.” is precisely why this was NOT strictly a CES problem that needed to stay HIDDEN there...............

I see the removal of MG as a 'personnel' issue - which needed to stay in-house. No sending out letters to the mailing list. No dropping turdlets on greasespot. You know, handle things professionally. Indiana is an "at will" employer state, so slinging mud over a personnel issue is not required, other than he could probably get unemployment for not breaking a rule of employment. I don't know how or why personal prophecy was dragged into the whole mix other than many important decisions were made or confirmed on the basis of personal prophecy that needed to be based on measurable metrics. I don't know if Mark was making bad decisions based on personal prophecy, but I DO know that JB could be a workplace bully and that behavior was what got him relieved of his duties initially.

I'm not real sure how getting this all out in the open will change anyone's mind about anything other than a few in the home office found they didn't have the support out here they thought they had. I would have preferred they foul their own nest with their crap.

Hey there Tz - thanks for the shout out. I do take issue with what you insinuate in the above quote - that there was a long standing desire and conspiracy to oust MG. There may have been differences in opinion and personality conflict (with one person in particular), but there was no conspiracy. Period. It was MG's idea to have DG come in the first place!

Please be careful here as well, because a bit of the same was going on with the MG side, though it wasn't done here. Letters were sent out, folks on the CES/STF mailing list were contacted. My wife and I were personally witness to phone calls and conversations where such things things as "it's a war" and "it's time to take sides" were being said.

In the end, both "sides" are ultimately to blame, and I personally have suffered some of the consequences. Thankfully, my wife and I are working through it and moving on with our lives. I pray daily for all involved - in my opinion, it's the best hope for a positive outcome.

I know MG wanted DG at the home office. What I don't think MG knew (at the time) was that it was JB's desire to see MG gone. This is not speculation on my part. JB made his wishes very clear to me on a number of occasions regarding my continued participation and Mark being there. I think JB found himself very empowered once Dan came on board and set about eliminating whomever else he had problems with.

It's too bad it all came to taking sides. I've been there before which was why I felt a clean break was best for me (no mail list or continued correspondence). I've yet to pick up the phone to talk to any of them.

I'm truly sorry you and your wife had had to suffer anything because of this. I hope the marriage is going well, along with the new job. You're still as cute as ever!

When the whole firestorm about CES/stf started on GS, I felt as if the two factions of that group were merely using GSC as their platform to (a) stage a coup and (b) counterattack. Plenty of mud was slung in both directions.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but so far it looks like I was right. GS was plenty good enough for the CES/stf folks to use to further their political agendas, but now its principals and self-appointed spokespersons seem to think they're too good to muddy their shoes here.

And to whoever said all the posts in this CES forum on GS served to do was provide ammo for the lawsuit (lawsuits?), I wouldn't blame that on the GSC regulars. It appears to me that the ammo was provided by the two factions of CES/stf themselves.

It's not nice to start a food fight in a cafe and then not even come back to help scrape the pie off the walls or mop up the spilled coffee.

If I were Paw, I might be thinking about hanging up the "We have the right to refuse service to anyone" sign and shut this booth down, but then DWBH might never get his answers. Oh, wait. It's looking unlikely that he'll get his answers anyway, isn't it?

I don't recall MG's 'faction' ever coming out here and saying anything. I did say a few words on his behalf, but not at his urging. I've been there and have personally had to deal with the issues that abound with STF. I don't have a lot of luv for DG or JB because of the way I was treated. I'm neutral when it comes to Matt. I really like BillyD.

This situation with Mark was at least 3 years in the making. It was only when DG arrived was the deed able to be done. JB made it very clear to me that he did not like working under MG. He also didn't like working with me.

I spoke to MG BRIEFLY a while back - possibly July. When I asked how the litigation was going, he said something about being in mediation over the whole issue.

Make no mistake about it - them posting out here and putting papers into a supposedly 'neutral' 3rd party's (which she was no more neutral that I could be) hands for 'publication' was all about getting people to take sides and garnering support against MG. This was strictly a CES problem and it needed to stay there. That's the basis for Mark's argument and I tend to agree with him.

The truth is that they ALL have used and abused personal prophecy to establish the 'rightness' of their actions when it has suited them.

According to the AoI and bylaws of the corp, MG can't be relieved of his board position. He has to resign. He indicated to me that he wasn't in any hurry to do so. He doesn't see TR being kept on the board. I see TR being replaced with either JAL or JB when the time comes.

I spoke to MG very, very briefly one day recently and I asked him about the lawsuit. It appears to be in a discussion phase. We did not get into details.

Of all the people in that office, besides BillyD, Mark was the most open and approachable. Mark did want the church and he did want to add an air of legitimacy to the ministry. He wasn't so much into the we're all about being different mindset.

The prophecy thing was a bit much for me. I saw them (all) do it from time to time. I thought it was kinda like speaking in tongues - forced - but that is just my opinion.

Donald Stout... PM or e-mail to get this information.... not good to give out phone numbers or addresses over the internet.

DooWap

I found the info on the internet. Googled his name and Ohio

We met through mutual TWI friend in 1979. Married in April 1980 outside TWI because

1. No one was ordained in our state.

2. Our marriage wasn't 'approved' because he was on meds for obsessive/compulsive disorder.

I found that too be a bit too involved in someone's personal life and said so. I was never much of an insider...

We left TWI physically in 1987, but emotionally distanced in 1982.

We are coming up on our 27th anniversary and have always placed the marriage above the individuals.